ARTICLE: Koiki goes on loan to Swindon

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:16 pm

A third young player goes out on loan

See link
http://www.uptheclarets.com/koiki-goes- ... to-swindon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Goobs · Post by **Goobs** » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:27 pm

Nice t o see us getting players out at a decent level. Surprised Michael Duff hasn't taken any of the youngsters to Cheltenham on loan.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:31 pm

Goobs wrote:Nice t o see us getting players out at a decent level. Surprised Michael Duff hasn't taken any of the youngsters to Cheltenham on loan.

He might do yet but if reports are true then he's got a bit above himself asking for Dwight. As for Koiki, got the info on Tuesday and had article written (just added the quotes to it). Was surprised because I thought he might go to Grimsby who wanted him in the summer.

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:47 pm

SD must be confident about Ward’s fitness then, which is good news.

superdimitri · Post by **superdimitri** » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:38 pm

Its an improvement going to league 2 but honestly, its still not high enough for those players to be worth anything to us.

Lets hope he follows Jimmy Dunne's ways though

EarbyClaret · Post by **EarbyClaret** » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:32 pm

I guess if you're yet to prove yourself at first team level it's going t be incredibly difficult to secure a loan above League Two. If you look at a club like Swindon new(ish) manager with strong NW connections. No danger of being relegated, chance of a promotion/play-off push if things work out then it's a risk you can afford to take.

To get a loan at League One level you have to have some kind of track record - like Jimmy Dunne to Sunderland which I think is an excellent move for him - only secured because he's already impressed at Hearts.

ClaretShaun · Post by **ClaretShaun** » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:23 pm

superdimitri wrote:Its an improvement going to league 2 but honestly, its still not high enough for those players to be worth anything to us.

Lets hope he follows Jimmy Dunne's ways though

Wrong. They all grow as young men going into proper adult life when sent away on loan on ‘their own’.

As long as they get minutes the football is sometimes almost secondary.

superdimitri · Post by **superdimitri** » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:46 am

ClaretShaun wrote:Wrong. They all grow as young men going into proper adult life when sent away on loan on ‘their own’.

As long as they get minutes the football is sometimes almost secondary.

Wrong according to you, you mean?

Statistics and historical trends prove otherwise unfortunately. Look at Jack Cork, same age he was on loan in the championship. Look at Dwight McNeil, Phil Foden etc if you're good enough you're usually involved already and if you aren't your close to stepping into the team.

If we want to improve on our squad our youth players have to be getting games at championship level.

No harm to Ali and I hope he does well and bucks the trend but really we shouldn't be thinking he's going to be a prospect being loaned to League two. Even Dunne is unlikely to get anywhere with us.

mickleoverclaret · Post by **mickleoverclaret** » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:56 am

David Beckham was on loan in the fourth tier when he was 19, he didn't turn out too bad.

CharlieinNewMexico · Post by **CharlieinNewMexico** » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:18 am

mickleoverclaret wrote:David Beckham was on loan in the fourth tier when he was 19, he didn't turn out too bad.

And jayrod to Stirling. Lafferty to Darlo was it?

Yes they've not exactly turned out to be Messi but both have earned good livings from being in and around the top level of the game...

Richardsbfc · Post by **Richardsbfc** » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:25 am

You've got to earn your trade, Its as simple as that.

Loan signings and being around different settings when younger are brilliant for your development both as a footballer and personally.

Take this into your own work life. If you spend 10 years in the same team under the same management structure in the same location. You are limiting yourself to enhancing your trade.

Loans are required and in my view, start young and get out.

Goobs · Post by **Goobs** » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:16 am

Wasn't Delli Alli on loan from Spures to MK Don's at the age of 20? As big a tit as he is I would still have him in our team.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:19 am

Dele Ali was a product of Mk Dons youth system. Been there all his career till Spurs signed him and loaned him back.

Goobs · Post by **Goobs** » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:27 am

I know I was being a bit silly but it is ridiculous to say a player won't make it cos he is only on loan in L1 or 2 at 20/21 as many of those teams have young player at that age who will go on to have very good careers and then you get the odd non-league one too such as a Vardy or Wright.

Socrates · Post by **Socrates** » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:38 am

It’s only in the UK that we have this daft mentality that if somebody isn’t playing at a high level at 18/19 they’re not good enough.

In other countries they have B Teams playing at a competitive level and players might not graduate from that till 20/21 - that’s the age that you stop fully developing and get your, for want of a better phrase, man strength.

This focus on Phil Foden’s minutes brings it into focus. There was one idiot journalist this week complaining he only got 30 minutes against Burton, completely ignoring the 90 he got at the weekend. Whenever anybody talks about the time Foden actually gets the response is always “Messi was playing every week at 17”. It’s such a stupid argument ..... he’s Messi, arguably the greatest ever, he is the exception, not the rule.

No issue with Koiki going to Swindon. If we signed a teenage full back from League 2 who was playing first team football we’d all be excited, the fact he’s our own and we’re lending him shouldn’t diminish him.

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:46 am

Brad Maylett was playing first team football for us wasn't he at 17? Fair to say it's no guarantee of greatness.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:42 am

superdimitri wrote:Its an improvement going to league 2 but honestly, its still not high enough for those players to be worth anything to us.

Lets hope he follows Jimmy Dunne's ways though

It's a good level for a first loan - Jimmy Dunne's last season was in the National League.

Goobs · Post by **Goobs** » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:50 am

NottsClaret wrote:Brad Maylett was playing first team football for us wasn't he at 17? Fair to say it's no guarantee of greatness.

Might be wrong but I seem to recall Maylett getting injured in a boxing day? game against Port Vale? that was then abandoned? I don't think he was ever the same after that.

As I say I'm not 100% sure hence all the question marks

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:35 am

Goobs wrote:Might be wrong but I seem to recall Maylett getting injured in a boxing day? game against Port Vale? that was then abandoned? I don't think he was ever the same after that.

As I say I'm not 100% sure hence all the question marks

I think you are right, and I'm sure he never got back to the quality he showed before that injury.

I don't like the loan system. And for every player that anyone can use to demonstrate its successes there must be many more failures.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:38 am

Goobs wrote:Might be wrong but I seem to recall Maylett getting injured in a boxing day? game against Port Vale? that was then abandoned? I don't think he was ever the same after that.

As I say I'm not 100% sure hence all the question marks

That Boxing Day game was 1994, a few years before Maylett played.

buzzclarets79 · Post by **buzzclarets79** » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:58 am

Minutes on the pitch is what both Dunne & Koiki require, in a competitive environment, league one is a decent level for that, they will need to be physical and up for the challenge. Hoping they both shine, that way the next loan could well be a championship move. They are both still growing and competitive game time will assist their development no end than pointless friendlies.

Socrates · Post by **Socrates** » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:22 am

boatshed bill wrote:I think you are right, and I'm sure he never got back to the quality he showed before that injury.

I don't like the loan system. And for every player that anyone can use to demonstrate its successes there must be many more failures.

Weird that, isn’t it?

Almost as if it’s super hard to become a footballer at the level we’ve played the last 20 years at and there’s no hard and fast way of doing it?

Who’d have thunk it?

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:36 pm

Socrates is absolutely right here. The idea that some are willing to write off kids that we've managed to loan to clubs in the football league, on the basis those clubs aren't high enough up the pyramid, is truly mindboggling. Especially when you consider that of our likely starting eleven tomorrow, only Ben Mee, JBG, McNeil and (if he plays) Bardsley, won't have been schooled by loan stints in League One or Two when around the same age as Koiki. And that's being generous, because I've not included Jack Cork who spent time on loan at Bournemouth when just shy of his 18th birthday. Of those, Tarkowski (League One with Oldham) and Heaton (League Two with Rochdale when 23, plus a heap of other loans in his early 20s) have of course played for England. And England's left-sided centre back at the World Cup was Harry Maguire, who was playing in League One when he celebrated his 21st birthday.

The point here is that human beings develop at different rates, and get different levels of opportunity. Once upon a time, we had England U-21 international Nathan Delfouneso on loan in the Championship, at the same time as we had Jay Rodriguez - overlooked for U-21 honours at that time. The only reason one had played representative football and one hasn't is that one was at a better regarded academy and got the opportunity as a result. So it is with the lads we're loaning out now, after a period of years in which our youth system has been in hibernation.

I've no idea of Koiki will make it or not. But I sure as hell know that the fact he's out on loan will help, not hinder whether he makes it, and the fact he's out on loan in League Two (rather than League One or the Championship) at this stage is absolutely no basis to judge whether he will in fact make it. Only time will prove that.

jedi_master · Post by **jedi_master** » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:47 pm

I find criticism of any of our teenagers getting League moves a bad thing really confusing, regardless of level.

It can only benefit Koiki, it's down to him to show he is above League Two level when he plays for them. If he does, great, he will have shown he is ready for a League One loan, again you try him there next season if there are takers, etc and so on. Dunne is a bit different as he is now 21 (I think) but this pathway has already worked for him, proving himself in League Two and then the SPL. Dunne's next step after this season is arguably the Championship for a season by which time he will be approaching 23, and probably have about 100 games under his belt and likely a cap or two for his country (who he has already been called up by).

At that point, he's probably ready to challenge at Burnley.

superdimitri · Post by **superdimitri** » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:35 pm

zzzzz its not the 60s or 70s anymore gents, we can't compete with those around us with better scouting, better youth development etc. the fact is if you don't get a player out on loan at this age at a decent level they aren't likely to be challenging anyone in our first team anytime soon. Yes there are exceptions and I hope we have some. But its just not likely at all.

No point getting excited over something happening when the likelhood is nothing will happen at all, you'll only get disappointed when they turn out to be the next Gilchrist, McCarten or A.McDonald.

Why do you think it is our greatest prospects have always been from elsewhere? JR aside every one we have made money on or has done well in our first team originates from somewhere else.

NL Claret · Post by **NL Claret** » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:10 pm

Goobs wrote:Might be wrong but I seem to recall Maylett getting injured in a boxing day? game against Port Vale? that was then abandoned? I don't think he was ever the same after that.

As I say I'm not 100% sure hence all the question marks

You are thinking of Wayne Dowell, left back. Maylett played under Stan in the early 2000s.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:17 pm

superdimitri wrote:zzzzz its not the 60s or 70s anymore gents, we can't compete with those around us with better scouting, better youth development etc. the fact is if you don't get a player out on loan at this age at a decent level they aren't likely to be challenging anyone in our first team anytime soon. Yes there are exceptions and I hope we have some. But its just not likely at all.

No point getting excited over something happening when the likelhood is nothing will happen at all, you'll only get disappointed when they turn out to be the next Gilchrist, McCarten or A.McDonald.

Why do you think it is our greatest prospects have always been from elsewhere? JR aside every one we have made money on or has done well in our first team originates from somewhere else.

Whether that's true or not is debatable, but the fact we've got a couple of players out on loan at League 2 clubs is hardly evidence either way that your point is correct. And if we our aspirations are no higher than to bring through one or two players every couple of years, then that will still make the youth department one of the most profitable parts of the club, and be a huge tool in maintaining our status as a top 30 club.

Wokingclaret · Post by **Wokingclaret** » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:39 pm

This is what we need to continue to do, so Barnfield becomes self funding. Cheap to run in the premier league, but massive annual cost per season in the Championship

superdimitri · Post by **superdimitri** » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:05 am

claretspice wrote:Whether that's true or not is debatable, but the fact we've got a couple of players out on loan at League 2 clubs is hardly evidence either way that your point is correct. And if we our aspirations are no higher than to bring through one or two players every couple of years, then that will still make the youth department one of the most profitable parts of the club, and be a huge tool in maintaining our status as a top 30 club.

Well I hope we do manage one or two players, but I can't see it happening if we are still having to loan out players to league one who are old enough (if good enough) to play at premier league level already.

My point is that people are remarking about a player going to league one as being a good level. It is not.Yes its better than 7th tier but its a long way off any player make any kind of profit for us.

The gap is already too big for established championship players to make it in our team, we cannot expect any players to be sold for profit unless they make it near our first team.

dibraidio · Post by **dibraidio** » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:21 am

Did he get credited with an assist on Saturday? Good start to his loan spell.

Sleeping Cat · Post by **Sleeping Cat** » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:38 am

"The gap is already too big for established championship players to make it in our team"

This is simply not true. The problem is that we expect players to come in and make the step up immediately!

Heaton, Pope, Mee, Tarkowski, Taylor, JBG, Barnes, Brady, Hendrick, Gibson (with Boro) & Ward (with Wolves) are members of our current squad who have all started their careers in Championship or lower & have adapted to playing at Premier League level, some better than others. This shows that given the right guidance, system around them, time to learn and develop, players can and have made the step up.

Looking wider at other teams,

Callum Wilson, David Brooks at Bournemouth.
Deli Ali, Tripps at spurs plus Kane had 4 loan spells in lower leagues.
Vardy, Demairi Gray,Maddison

The lower leagues are full of good players both working their way up & stepping down to get a chance.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:47 am

superdimitri wrote:Well I hope we do manage one or two players, but I can't see it happening if we are still having to loan out players to league one who are old enough (if good enough) to play at premier league level already.

My point is that people are remarking about a player going to league one as being a good level. It is not.Yes its better than 7th tier but its a long way off any player make any kind of profit for us.

The gap is already too big for established championship players to make it in our team, we cannot expect any players to be sold for profit unless they make it near our first team.

With all due respect....most of your post is rubbish.
League One is a good level....many players have played at that level and then progressed to the Premier League. Look at Maddison recently....Pope and JBG for us. Sunderland, Leeds, Sheff Utd, Man City, Wolves and lots of other big teams have spent time in Division One.
Look at the Bournemouth team - many of them progressed through from division 2 to end up playing in the Premier League.

As for the Championship still loads of opportunities to pick up good players who can play in the Premier League.

ClaretLoup · Post by **ClaretLoup** » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:19 pm

superdimitri wrote:
The gap is already too big for established championship players to make it in our team, we cannot expect any players to be sold for profit unless they make it near our first team.

The only player I can think of who hasn't played in Championship is Defour.

Also one of the youth team players has made it to the first team and possibly one of the factors in his development is that McNeil has been playing with and against better players. So the youth system is not all about selling every player for profit.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:51 pm

TVC15 wrote:With all due respect....most of your post is rubbish.
League One is a good level....many players have played at that level and then progressed to the Premier League. Look at Maddison recently....Pope and JBG for us. Sunderland, Leeds, Sheff Utd, Man City, Wolves and lots of other big teams have spent time in Division One.
Look at the Bournemouth team - many of them progressed through from division 2 to end up playing in the Premier League.

As for the Championship still loads of opportunities to pick up good players who can play in the Premier League.

Are you sure that either JBG or Nick Pope have ever played in League 1 ?

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:07 pm

JBG has not played in a League lower than the Championship in England, he was at AZ Alkmaar before going to Charlton.

Nick Pope played for Cambridge United in Blue Square Premier in 2013. Aldershot in Conference at the start of 2013/14 before going on to play for York in League Two and he played for them in the end of season play offs.
He next played for Bury in League Two in 2015 before establishing himself in the Charlton team in the season, at the end of which, they were relegated.

not waving · Post by **not waving** » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:22 pm

For Bury, ashington, that's quite probably Bury St Edmunds in Suffolk

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:39 pm

not waving wrote:For Bury, ashington, that's quite probably Bury St Edmunds in Suffolk

Started at Bury St. Edmunds, also had a loan from Charlton to Bury FC

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:41 pm

not waving wrote:For Bury, ashington, that's quite probably Bury St Edmunds in Suffolk

No, it was Bury in League Two on loan from January 2015 and he played 22 matches and conceded 10 goals. Bury finished 3rd and were promoted to League One. Nick was 22 years old at the time.

ClaretLoup · Post by **ClaretLoup** » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:47 pm

Pope was a junior at Ipswich Town but was rejected there and went to Bury Town based in Bury St Edmunds for three years before Charlton picked him up. Most of his time there was spent as an understudy to Town's senior keeper so it was a real surprise and an excellent piece of scouting when Charlton picked him.

Initially whilst at Charlton he went out on loan to at least one league club Harrow Borough which is several levels lower than Koiki is at currently whilst at a similar age.

claretburns · Post by **claretburns** » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:51 pm

NottsClaret wrote:Brad Maylett was playing first team football for us wasn't he at 17? Fair to say it's no guarantee of greatness.

My old Championship Manager game would disagree, he was a beast on that

superdimitri · Post by **superdimitri** » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:15 pm

The problem is you are picking out the few exceptions, the majority of players are not going to be good enough to play in our first team if they are playing at league 1 at this age.

We have last seasons top goal scorer in the championship sitting on the bench, yet there is a good chance we will see a player on loan at league one come through the ranks and challenge for a spot on our bench? I don't think so. Are we going to make profit on a player that doesn't get game time in our first team? Very unlikely.

Our problem right now is we are struggling to sign better players than we have, we always go for championship players with good records and we are unable to improve on the squad. If a proven player at championship level can't build on what use is one on loan at an age he could be playing for us on league 1 going to do? nothing.

If you think that youth is going to be the answer we need to get to category one fast and get players on loan at the Championship as soon as possible. Then we stand the best chance.

TVC15 wrote:With all due respect....most of your post is rubbish.

there is nothing better than someone judging someone else's post as rubbish (because they don't agree

) and then getting their facts all wrong. Pope played his first game for Charlton in the Championship when he just turned 20 and Gudmundsson was playing in Europa league qualifiers at 21.

I don't know how people can argue this when we already see McNeil playing well for us in the premier league at 19. Its simple, if these players we're good enough, they like McNeil would already been in the team.

No good getting your panties in a twist over this, its just remarkable to see people getting exciting over another prospect that will never be. Lets hope it isn't always like that but football is not what it used to be any more and whilst we have a tradition of having good youngsters, that is much harder to achieve now than it once was.

This forum is a laugh sometimes, you have topics where people discuss how the level of the championship is very high and that getting into the premier league is harder than ever, yet also people who believe league 1 is a good level and that even when we sign proven championship talent that doesn't seem to improve our squad that there is promise that our youngsters go out on loan at tier 3 rather than tier 7.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:08 pm

superdimitri wrote:The problem is you are picking out the few exceptions, the majority of players are not going to be good enough to play in our first team if they are playing at league 1 at this age.

We have last seasons top goal scorer in the championship sitting on the bench, yet there is a good chance we will see a player on loan at league one come through the ranks and challenge for a spot on our bench? I don't think so. Are we going to make profit on a player that doesn't get game time in our first team? Very unlikely.

Our problem right now is we are struggling to sign better players than we have, we always go for championship players with good records and we are unable to improve on the squad. If a proven player at championship level can't build on what use is one on loan at an age he could be playing for us on league 1 going to do? nothing.

If you think that youth is going to be the answer we need to get to category one fast and get players on loan at the Championship as soon as possible. Then we stand the best chance.

there is nothing better than someone judging someone else's post as rubbish (because they don't agree ) and then getting their facts all wrong. Pope played his first game for Charlton in the Championship when he just turned 20 and Gudmundsson was playing in Europa league qualifiers at 21.

I don't know how people can argue this when we already see McNeil playing well for us in the premier league at 19. Its simple, if these players we're good enough, they like McNeil would already been in the team.

No good getting your panties in a twist over this, its just remarkable to see people getting exciting over another prospect that will never be. Lets hope it isn't always like that but football is not what it used to be any more and whilst we have a tradition of having good youngsters, that is much harder to achieve now than it once was.

This forum is a laugh sometimes, you have topics where people discuss how the level of the championship is very high and that getting into the premier league is harder than ever, yet also people who believe league 1 is a good level and that even when we sign proven championship talent that doesn't seem to improve our squad that there is promise that our youngsters go out on loan at tier 3 rather than tier 7.

Sorry - which bit of my post was wrong ?
Pope has played in lower leagues and JBG played in championship

I thought your post was rubbish because you were suggesting players don’t progress from the lower leagues to the premier league.

I have never commented on whether Koiki is good enough or will be in the future. I’ve seen him play once. You have probably never seen him play and seem to be writing him off already on the basis that if McNeil is already playing in first team at 19 then Koiki would be if he was going to be good enough.

As per above didn’t Nick Pope go out on loan and play on lower leagues. At that point nobody knew he was going to be this good...I doubt we did when we signed him or else we would not have got him for the price we did.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:47 pm

Socrates wrote:Weird that, isn’t it?

Almost as if it’s super hard to become a footballer at the level we’ve played the last 20 years at and there’s no hard and fast way of doing it?

Who’d have thunk it?

Of course there is a very high failure rate, I doubt that anyone doesn't know this.
My point about loans is that we would never know of young players whose careers may have stalled, and possibly failed, because of poor loans. We, obviously, only hear of the success stories.

superdimitri · Post by **superdimitri** » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:09 pm

TVC15 wrote:Sorry - which bit of my post was wrong ?
Pope has played in lower leagues and JBG played in championship

I thought your post was rubbish because you were suggesting players don’t progress from the lower leagues to the premier league.

I have never commented on whether Koiki is good enough or will be in the future. I’ve seen him play once. You have probably never seen him play and seem to be writing him off already on the basis that if McNeil is already playing in first team at 19 then Koiki would be if he was going to be good enough.

As per above didn’t Nick Pope go out on loan and play on lower leagues. At that point nobody knew he was going to be this good...I doubt we did when we signed him or else we would not have got him for the price we did.

Look at the ages, Pope was good enough to be in the net for Charlton in the championship when he just turned 20 and hes a goalkeeper who tend to mature a lot later than outfield players.

Then with Gudmundsson, he was playing in the Europa league when he was 21.

If you are going to find exceptions, find players that did at least play in lower leagues when they weren't very young. There are of course exceptions but as mentioned above, we only remember those that make it, not those that don't.

Our trouble is we have a group of players that don't really stand out over one another, we need players coming through that are going to exceed their quality, not just players that have a chance of being on the bench. Yes if we get a golden boy come through (maybe mcneil?) it is worth it, but it needs to be more often than it has been. Our recent success in making profit has not been in youth development outside of the first team at all. Its been buying reject youngsters from other teams and putting them straight in our first team.

Our youth department has a lot of money put in to it but it hasn't made a profit at all, it may be cheap to run compared to what we could potentially gain from a prospect every couple of years but that just hasn't been happening!

People get too optimistic when the read these loan stories if you ask me, yes everyone wants a dream story and youngsters coming through like Burnley have been famous for in the past, but I read a player at 19 going out on loan at league 1 as a step in the right direction compared to before but still not good news for us making any money from him and definitely not good news if we want him to be near the first team squad.

Its quite simple, all our players that have gone out at loan at this kind of level have moved on and we have made a loss on them, both on their wages and their coaching. Whilst its still nothing compared to the income we have coming in, its not worth it until we get regular youngsters coming through at a high enough level.

Danieljwaterhouse · Post by **Danieljwaterhouse** » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:28 pm

Does anyone ever think that these lads are good enough technically, it’s the other aspects of football that need sharpening. Being in an adults dressing room, having adult expectations, playing in front of bigger crowds, the mentality of winning and losing, and learning the dark arts of the leagues.

Going out on loan is the only way to get these skills and is the only way to test a players physical and mental attributes. It is the way you develop players, the only way you develop players.

Hats off to the club for getting these lads out into the real world. Some will make it, some won’t, but it’s also our responsibility to give them an opportunity in football. I love that there’s players who haven’t made it at the club but HAVE made it in football. Ours is a well run club, and the youth section appears at last to be well run!

UTC

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:44 pm

superdimitri wrote:Look at the ages, Pope was good enough to be in the net for Charlton in the championship when he just turned 20 and hes a goalkeeper who tend to mature a lot later than outfield players.

Then with Gudmundsson, he was playing in the Europa league when he was 21.

If you are going to find exceptions, find players that did at least play in lower leagues when they weren't very young. There are of course exceptions but as mentioned above, we only remember those that make it, not those that don't.

Our trouble is we have a group of players that don't really stand out over one another, we need players coming through that are going to exceed their quality, not just players that have a chance of being on the bench. Yes if we get a golden boy come through (maybe mcneil?) it is worth it, but it needs to be more often than it has been. Our recent success in making profit has not been in youth development outside of the first team at all. Its been buying reject youngsters from other teams and putting them straight in our first team.

Our youth department has a lot of money put in to it but it hasn't made a profit at all, it may be cheap to run compared to what we could potentially gain from a prospect every couple of years but that just hasn't been happening!

People get too optimistic when the read these loan stories if you ask me, yes everyone wants a dream story and youngsters coming through like Burnley have been famous for in the past, but I read a player at 19 going out on loan at league 1 as a step in the right direction compared to before but still not good news for us making any money from him and definitely not good news if we want him to be near the first team squad.

Its quite simple, all our players that have gone out at loan at this kind of level have moved on and we have made a loss on them, both on their wages and their coaching. Whilst its still nothing compared to the income we have coming in, its not worth it until we get regular youngsters coming through at a high enough level.

Our problems at youth level are well documented - you are effectively criticising the period under Howe where our youth framework was ripped apart and we had to start again.
It takes years to build this again - by definition.
In last couple of years we are beginning to make good strides - they have great facilities now at Barnfield and the coaching etc has improved.
Koiki has been doing well in the reserves. I watched a couple of u23 games last year and Koiki and McNeil both played well.
To say it’s all been a waste of time and money right now when McNeil has broken through is strange timing ! If you would have gone to u23 games last year even though McNeil stood out as one of the better players there is no way anybody would have said he would be doing what he is now within a period of 12 months.

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:22 pm

It seems clear that at present and for a few years now under SD we've had a policy of scouring the bigger clubs for lads who they are discarding because in their opinion there's no point keeping them. But some (by no means all) of those lads will have bags of potential and may well simply be later developers or struggling to make a mark in a very, very high end pond. The bigger clubs have so many lads they possibly know these others will make it somewhere, but they can't be bothered putting in the work and giving them the time and space to really grow and develop. Dunne and McNeil for example were both allowed to leave Man U and both look well capable of playing at the highest level. Goodridge too was let go by Liverpool? A good number of our U18s and U23s are similar stories and there's clearly a lot of talent there at present. Yes, in the end some really won't make it and we do also still look lower down the leagues and nick they're promising youngsters, like Ageyi and Ginelly for example. All in all when you look at the young players we've got at present I'd be very surprised if McNeil was the only diamond we unearth.

the_fat_shearer · Post by **the_fat_shearer** » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:47 pm

Not sure why there's all this debate about League 2 being too low a level to loan someone out to, that they're not going to make it at the top loaning out at that level to start them off.

I mean, it's clear if we are loaning someone out to a League 2 club they're never going to be good enough for us and the Prem. It's not as though we've ever seen that bear fruit, it's not as though we've got a centre-back now who has made 10 starts this season and over 50 appearances for the club in total having been loaned out to a League 2 club to start his development...

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:52 pm

Long ago was it?