Are the Tories (and Boris)finished after “Brexit”?

[AlargeClaret]

With May’s vote destined for a heavy defeat and calls for a general election/2nd referendum/delayed Brexit etc can the Tories ever recover ? The weakest I’ve seen them since The Hague/IDS wilderness years . Surely BoJo ( the only true fear the other parties have ) will fall on his sword if there’s a 2nd vote defeat leaving a rudderless bunch of pansies vs the most unappealing Labour Party since Michael Foot donned his moleskin jacket and cornish pasty shoes .

[Quickenthetempo]

Parliament should be finished after all of this, it has proven that they're all useless money driven pillocks. Well apart from Corbyn who just wants to put a spanner in every works going.

[South West Claret.]

How anyone with a degree of inteligence and decency can vote Tory after this expensive, irresponsible, shambles. etc will be interesting to see.

This is assuming that the usual suspects will always do so for their perceived short term self interest.

[AlargeClaret]

The 30% Tory /Lab diehards will always vote for their party tbf SWC . If labour werent so hideously unappealing they’d be a total shoo in and would wipe the floor with the Tories . Though Brexit was the ultimate poison chalice for any leader especially a remainer one. I think they needed a hard Brexiteer to “tubthump” it through as the shambles on show is a self serving horror film .

[Sproggy]

They're all as bad as each other. Politics could be dead after this, never mind the Tories.

The Tories don't know their arse from their elbow.

Labour have zero interest in a viable Brexit deal because they are only interested in a general election. Their own Brexit policy (if you can call it that) fails their own 6 tests so there was no chance any negotiated deal would get past them. Anyone who thinks a Labour government would negotiate a deal that gets even remotely close to the requirements of their six tests is deluded. Presumably we're all happy to wait 6 months to sort out an election, then start another 2 year negotiating process to get back to roughly where we are now? The opposition in this process has been a shambles.

The Lib Dems are irrelevant but trying to be relevant by being popularist. Another referendum sounds nice but we haven't implemented the results of the first one yet. Or explained what will happen if Leave win again, or even defined what a new referendum would look like. Presumably 52/48 in favour of Remain would result in a decider?

The SNP are looking for any excuse for another independence referendum.

[thatdberight]

How anyone with a degree of inteligence...

Never a good look...

[Lancasterclaret]

Of course not, but it might lead to more parties which I think would be a good thing.

We are the oldest longest running democracy in the world and its about time we started to act like it.

[AlargeClaret]

I never really saw what the big issue was with the EU anyway ? We had all kinds of vetos and special treatment ( more so after Cameron’s negotiation) and I always presumed the “ bad immigrants “ ( all darkies ? where I presume the UKIP issue was ??) tended to be from non EU nations anyway

[Pimlico_Claret]

There's a vacuum in British politics now, the size of which James Dyson could only dream of.

[Bacchus]

The Tories aren't finished because the electoral system we have doesn't allow them to be finished. Certain individuals might be though (at least in the sense that their ambitions are pretty much up in smoke.)

In fact, rather than finished, I'd be willing to bet that if Labour gets the general election it is so desperately after we'll end up with a Tory majority government again (albeit maybe with with a reduced vote share, highlighting further the inadequacies of our electoral system.)

[thatdberight]

I never really saw what the big issue was with the EU anyway ? We had all kinds of vetos and special treatment ( more so after Cameron’s negotiation) and I always presumed the “ bad immigrants “ ( all darkies ? where I presume the UKIP issue was ??) tended to be from non EU nations anyway

I agree to some extent. In Boston and Peterborough there may have been a concern about post-2000 "Eastern Bloc" immigration. In more cases, I believe, it was a protest about a wave of immigration that happened 50 years ago. That said, the realisation that Germany's immigration policy effectively becomes everyone else's immigration policy came at a very good/bad/important time in this debate.
The broader point is that many people simply feel disenfranchised by the size of the EU and that, however much we have vetoes and opt-outs, felt we were part of something moving inexorably towards outcomes we aren't bought into particularly regarding economic and military policy.

[piston broke]

I can't understand why folk can turn away from them just over the EU fiasco. They’ve done sweet FA for the general public from day 1 of Hameron, Gideon & austerity. The party of the rich for the rich and still working class people vote for them. Ideas above their station for me.

[Guich]

I can't understand why folk can turn away from them just over the EU fiasco. They’ve done sweet FA for the general public from day 1 of Hameron, Gideon & austerity. The party of the rich for the rich and still working class people vote for them. Ideas above their station for me.

Nobody in Westminster seems to like the working class very much

[AlargeClaret]

Personally I was a tentative remain vote as it was obvious the EU would “ punish” any major player withdrawing ( would only take a U.K. post Brexit success to see others follow etc) Though 1st time in U.K. politics I’ve seen the 2 main parties so toothless, unappealing and rudderless

[Lancasterclaret]

Lots of dissatisfaction with the EU is actually dissatisfaction with globalisation.

And you cannot turn back the clock on that, and its massively going to hit hard when that hits home.

[Colburn_Claret]

If we had even a half arsed opposition, they would have been dead and buried long ago.
Then you look at Jeremy Corbyn and realise they are safe as houses.

[dsr]

I can't understand why folk can turn away from them just over the EU fiasco. They’ve done sweet FA for the general public from day 1 of Hameron, Gideon & austerity. The party of the rich for the rich and still working class people vote for them. Ideas above their station for me.

Some of the "working class" rather like the idea of being rich, and don't accept your and unofficial Labour policy views that they shouldn't have "ideas above their station".

[mdd2]

Ironic that some would say the Europeans come here and take our jobs. But the Europeans in Slovakia give JLR over £100million and we lose jobs as Discovery production leaves the UK to Europe.
I think Boris is a side show now and it is likely that the Tories will get thumped next time mainly because they are an openly divided party and just like Labour before Neil Kinnock took on and beat militant the voters will consider them unfit for Government

[Quickenthetempo]

The working class
can kiss my ass
I've got the foremans job at last.

No truer words spoken in song form.

[FactualFrank]

A foreigner with a degree is not stealing your job when you have 4 teeth, 3 kids, 2 GCSEs and an STD.

[jurek]

Don't think the Tories are finished given the current electoral first past the post
system we have, If I recall correctly they still have a lead over Labour in the recent polls.

However do believe our political system needs a drastic overhaul but not quite sure what
and how we would go about it. Especially if the current two largest parties aren't interested.

Can't see a Macron style 'coming from nowhere in a couple of years' happening in the UK
but something do needs to happen.

If it was me I would scrap first past the post and introduce a proportional based system.
I would also scrap the House of Lords or at the very least replace the current peerage system.
More independent MoP's and/or more parties might be one way to go but again how would we achieve that
under our current first past the post system?

Whatever, the current system and more importantly public support of it has reached
an unprecedented low and surely cannot continue as it is.

We need radical change and leaving Europe and the mess that has created should be the catalyst
for serious change.

[claret_in_exile]

If we had even a half arsed opposition, they would have been dead and buried long ago.
Then you look at Jeremy Corbyn and realise they are safe as houses.

Exactly this. A Labour party led by almost anyone else would have annihilated the Tories by now.

The lack of talent in British politics right now is frightening, just when we need it most.

[piston broke]

Some of the "working class" rather like the idea of being rich, and don't accept your and unofficial Labour policy views that they shouldn't have "ideas above their station".

How many working class have improved their lot under this government?
I have no quarrel with anybody who works to improve their lives. They just won’t be aided by this shower.

[thatdberight]

I agree that we lack talent in our political class. May is the least inspiring PM I can remember. I do (but then I would) credit her with a certain degree of public service ethos, as opposed to her opposite number who has proven himself in the long run to be a consummate politician but who I believe to entirely untrustworthy. He won't even be straight on the biggest issue if our time. Why? Because he's a consummate politician and he's playing it as best gets him a result. May on the other hand has come up with some kind of solution in an impossibly tight space but forgot that somebody, anybody else needed to like it too.

Without going into any detail, I'd suggest that, despite that, May's the best of Tories and Labour have others better (unless they get deselected) but not outstanding. It's not a pretty sight.

[JohnMcGreal]

The conservative party ought to be a political corpse after all they've inflicted on the country. However, they will probably survive, due to the way our political system is set up and the fact that there are millions of people who are only too happy to go out and vote for them regardless of their dismal track record of governing.

[claretonthecoast1882]

The conservative party ought to be a political corpse after all they've inflicted on the country. However, they will probably survive, due to the way our political system is set up and the fact that there are millions of people who are only too happy to go out and vote for them regardless of their dismal track record of governing.

At what point do you look at Labour and admit to yourself Corbyn is also a factor in people voting for the tories

[JohnMcGreal]

At what point do you look at Labour and admit to yourself Corbyn is also a factor in people voting for the tories

I don't think Corbyn is driving that many labour voters to the tories, but he's in real danger of driving a lot of labour voters to the greens, lib dems or even voting abstinence as a result of his lack of action on Brexit.

Both of the main parties should be in real trouble after all of this, but they'll probably both stagger on.

[thatdberight]

...their dismal track record of governing.

If that's true, we're really stuffed...

[South West Claret.]

Some of you don't seem to realise or have forgotten how politics work.

When the Government of the day makes a public mockery of themselves it's customary for the opposition to let them get on with it and keep digging their own grave.

That's exactly what JC and all the others are doing.

[SammyBoy]

I never really saw what the big issue was with the EU anyway ? We had all kinds of vetos and special treatment ( more so after Cameron’s negotiation) and I always presumed the “ bad immigrants “ ( all darkies ? where I presume the UKIP issue was ??) tended to be from non EU nations anyway

I've said this before on here but Brexit has become (always was) a battleground for a host of issues that should have been resolved domestically. Before the referendum I'd wager the majority of the general public had little to no opinion on the EU. Nothing that's happened so far has convinced me this is anything more than a colossal waste of time given we already have by far the best deal available.

I also share your surprise about the dislike of EU immigrants, I'd always assumed that because they're white and Christian there wouldn't be too much ill feeling.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Yes. The Tories are close to being finished. A new party will arise, a pro Brexit, social democrat party. You could call it something new, like, say, the SDP.

We will be in permanent hung parliament territory like other countries.

I agree that the Tories haven't tackled the flaws in capitalism, i.e. mega firms getting bigger and bigger and humans ending up out of work either through automation or globalisation e.g. the next 50 years will see the end of train drivers, lorry drivers, delivery drivers and taxi drivers. What then for them?

New Labour were also culpable in the same way. We will get a brilliant leader at some point coming through, starting a new party, charismatic, addressing all these concerns, and all bets will be off. We will ditch GDP as the measure of success, back to traditional values of progression, comfort and happiness. Big business will lose it's appeal. The future will be about locally self sustaining and a cooperative society. It'll be great, albeit 30 years late.

Search for Andrew Yang who is running for President in the US to see the type of thinking these new leaders are trying to come up with.

[AndrewJB]

Some of you don't seem to realise or have forgotten how politics work.

When the Government of the day makes a public mockery of themselves it's customary for the opposition to let them get on with it and keep digging their own grave.

That's exactly what JC and all the others are doing.

Brexit is such a toxic issue, this is the most sensible option. While we're heading toward a second referendum what would be the point of Labour taking the side of remain now and alienating thirty percent of its voters? When the referendum arrives with the choices of leave with no deal, leave with May's deal, or remain; Corbyn will be able to say: "I did what I could to push for a good brexit, but I cannot support either no deal nor May's bad deal, so I'll be voting remain"

The Tories will never be "finished" though. The interests they represent are too powerful. All those hedge fund managers, and newspaper moguls, and Russian gangsters aren't just going to go away.

[houseboy]

Of course not, but it might lead to more parties which I think would be a good thing.

We are the oldest longest running democracy in the world and its about time we started to act like it.

I'm not getting involved in the Brexit debate again (I made that decision weeks ago) but I would just like to say there are many nations who can claim to be 'the oldest' democracy and Britain isn't one of them. It depends on what you term democracy of course but we didn't have universal sufferage until 1929. The main claims seem to come from San Marino, Iceland and Greece (but their temporary rule by the Ottoman Empire seems to make their claim a little weak). Also The Isle of Man has the oldest parliament. The Americans often claim to be but very definitely aren't (some people think they aren't even a true democracy even now).

Because of the vagaries of democracy (people define it in different ways) it is difficult to say for sure who is the oldest democracy but most experts seem to agree that it is not us.

[Colburn_Claret]

Exactly this. A Labour party led by almost anyone else would have annihilated the Tories by now.

The lack of talent in British politics right now is frightening, just when we need it most.

The problem is far too few of them have done anything, worked anywhere, to pick up a talent.
They go to Uni to study politics, and leave straight into a job as some politicians lackey
They learn political speak, but haven't a clue how to talk to the public.
Those few that do know what they are talking about, get shot down for not adhering to the party whip.

I've said many times we are coming to a sea change in politics, the public have had enough. A new party is desperately needed, led by a politician with a vision. A vision of the country, and not just of his party.

[thatdberight]

Yes. The Tories are close to being finished. A new party will arise, a pro Brexit, social democrat party. You could call it something new, like, say, the SDP.

We will be in permanent hung parliament territory like other countries.

I agree that the Tories haven't tackled the flaws in capitalism, i.e. mega firms getting bigger and bigger and humans ending up out of work either through automation or globalisation e.g. the next 50 years will see the end of train drivers, lorry drivers, delivery drivers and taxi drivers. What then for them?

New Labour were also culpable in the same way. We will get a brilliant leader at some point coming through, starting a new party, charismatic, addressing all these concerns, and all bets will be off. We will ditch GDP as the measure of success, back to traditional values of progression, comfort and happiness. Big business will lose it's appeal. The future will be about locally self sustaining and a cooperative society. It'll be great, albeit 30 years late.

Search for Andrew Yang who is running for President in the US to see the type of thinking these new leaders are trying to come up with.

Automation will be a problem on many fronts.

Most people, despite dewy-eyed nonsense spouted, are not poets, musicians or potters. Or if they are, they're terrifically bad at it. As much as it's a bane, the direction of work has given meaning. We're hard-wired for it. That won't change quickly and in the meantime there'll be lots of unhappy, unfulfilled human beings.
Second, how to dole out the physical rewards in a society? Currently, being smart means you get more money but, for all but a tiny few, that'll become irrelevant. An architect will be no smarter than a cleaner. Both will just become skills no-one needs. Personally, I think this is where China is going with its social media brownie points schemes. In the end, behaving yourself will be the only distinction between people, regardless if they are now rich professionals and or unskilled labourers.
Of course, harder for us to do that when we've spent a century unwinding personal responsibility and making everything understandable or have an underlying reason that shouldn't be held against someone or getting society to pick up the pieces after you. Of course, in China behaving yourself is a pick of activities from a very short menu. Neither look like great choices.

[Colburn_Claret]

Some of you don't seem to realise or have forgotten how politics work.

When the Government of the day makes a public mockery of themselves it's customary for the opposition to let them get on with it and keep digging their own grave.

That's exactly what JC and all the others are doing.

Political propensity is not the way to win an argument. It's to offer an alternative that people can believe in.
As I've said, a professional politician who plays the game, but doesn't have a clue how to run the country.

[thatdberight]

Corbyn will be able to say: "I did what I could to push for a good brexit, but I cannot support either no deal nor May's bad deal, so I'll be voting remain".

He'd be saying it through gritted teeth. I think he currently wants it to go specularly wrong (that's going OK for him) but he can't do anything about it so he rides to the rescue, banks on the fact that his base, however unhappy they are with leaving, let him get on with it and the rescue is the significantly left-leaning economic model with massive nationalisation etc that can only happen outside the EU.

Of course, I think that rescue would as good as sending a second iceberg to help at The Titanic, but that would be the plan.

[DCWat]

Our two largest parties are a joke. It should be manna from heaven for the Lib Dem’s.

Perhaps the worst thing with the current state of the UK political parties that it’s likely to further dissuade people from taking an interest in mainstream politics, which makes it easier for the extremes to gain something of a foothold.

[claret_in_exile]

The problem is far too few of them have done anything, worked anywhere, to pick up a talent.
They go to Uni to study politics, and leave straight into a job as some politicians lackey
They learn political speak, but haven't a clue how to talk to the public.
Those few that do know what they are talking about, get shot down for not adhering to the party whip.

I've said many times we are coming to a sea change in politics, the public have had enough. A new party is desperately needed, led by a politician with a vision. A vision of the country, and not just of his party.

You're spot on again.

It's what so many Western countries need, a la Trump and Macron. Whether you agree with them or not, neither are bound to any party whip and followed their vision instead of did what was politically expedient.

[claret_in_exile]

At what point do you look at Labour and admit to yourself Corbyn is also a factor in people voting for the tories

I'm a life-long Labour voter (Blairite) who has always adopted a policy of "anyone but the Tories" after what Thatcher did to the northern working-class types.

However, I'd rather vote for Theresa May - who has done the best, out of a sense of duty, with a utterly dreadful hand - than Corbyn.

I'd vote for the Liberal Democrats, but what's the point?

British politics is so depressing.

[South West Claret.]

Political propensity is not the way to win an argument. It's to offer an alternative that people can believe in.
As I've said, a professional politician who plays the game, but doesn't have a clue how to run the country.

Before alternatives comes timing.

[thatdberight]

You're spot on again.

It's what so many Western countries need, a la Trump and Macron. Whether you agree with them or not, neither are bound to any party whip and followed their vision instead of did what was politically expedient.

I don't think even France think they need a Macron. And I'm sure nobody needs a Donald Trump.

[South West Claret.]

Our two largest parties are a joke. It should be manna from heaven for the Lib Dem’s.

Perhaps the worst thing with the current state of the UK political parties that it’s likely to further dissuade people from taking an interest in mainstream politics, which makes it easier for the extremes to gain something of a foothold.

Neither are a joke, one is useless (the Con-artists) who purport to be the Government and the other isn't even in power.

I do wish some people would think before posting.

[DCWat]

I'm a life-long Labour voter (Blairite) who has always adopted a policy of "anyone but the Tories" after what Thatcher did to the northern working-class types.

However, I'd rather vote for Theresa May - who has done the best, out of a sense of duty, with a utterly dreadful hand - than Corbyn.

I'd vote for the Liberal Democrats, but what's the point?

British politics is so depressing.

It’d be hard for anyone to say that Theresa May has done a good job, but your right, with the hand she’s been dealt (and one that she didn’t vote for at that) she’s had a bloody tough ride and has shown more balls than her many political detractors.

[DCWat]

Neither are a joke, one is useless (the Con-artists) who purport to be the Government and the other isn't even in power.

I do wish some people would think before posting.

Elaborate

[South West Claret.]

Elaborate

I have.

[Lancasterclaret]

I think the look on Emily Thornberrys face on QT last night when she tried to defend the "we will wait for the right moment" with the no confidence plan.

None of the big two want to admit that we might need an extension to Article 50, or a 2nd ref. What they both don't want is another election cos the winner gets blamed for the Brexit mess.

Whichever way you look at it, both parties are playing party politics ahead of the national interest and its not good.

[DCWat]

I have.

Don’t bother next time then.

[South West Claret.]

Don’t bother next time then.

I won't if you won't.

[DCWat]

I won't if you won't.

It’s a deal