Dyche & substitutes

beddie · Post by **beddie** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:27 pm

Don't really go together do they. Yet again he is slow to make a change. 20 mins to go and Wood is not tackling, unable to hold the ball up, why at that point does he not bring Vokes on. Fresh legs, better at getting stuck in, holds the ball better. He (Dyche) needs to start being more proactive.

Lord Beamish · Post by **Lord Beamish** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:29 pm

In fairness, Vokes would’ve been on much earlier had there not been nearly 10 minutes where the ball just didn't go out of play.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:30 pm

I thought today was very strange. But we won. However we absolutely needed fresh legs at 60 mins. Especially for McNeil. Problem is (and its our own doing) is we have very few options!

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:33 pm

Yeah McNeil was shattered last 20 minutes. Could have changed it upfront and got Barnes to sit in and do a job on the left maybe.

Burnleyareback2 · Post by **Burnleyareback2** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:36 pm

Lord Beamish wrote:In fairness, Vokes would’ve been on much earlier had there not been nearly 10 minutes where the ball just didn't go out of play.

I know and agree but after a long discussion SD sent him and Vydra to warm up to come on. They had 10mins warm up before they Sam got called back. Then 10mins tonwaot again.

Just thought we needed fresh legs earlier today.

ewanrob · Post by **ewanrob** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:37 pm

Agree, but hell we can't half defend a lead....brilliant

Hibsclaret · Post by **Hibsclaret** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:37 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:I thought today was very strange. But we won. However we absolutely needed fresh legs at 60 mins. Especially for McNeil. Problem is (and its our own doing) is we have very few options!

This

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:37 pm

Dyche gets his substitutions right far more often than he gets them wrong. Wood gives us the option of playing the ball into the channel which Vokes doesn’t, which is probably why he didn’t make the change earlier. That and the fact that despite not seeing much of the ball we looked pretty comfortable.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:38 pm

If only he'd have brought a sub on sooner, maybe we'd have won the game.

Silkyskills1 · Post by **Silkyskills1** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:39 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:I thought today was very strange. But we won. However we absolutely needed fresh legs at 60 mins. Especially for McNeil. Problem is (and its our own doing) is we have very few options!

Totally agree. On the radio on the way home someone in the studio was suggesting we had 'a strong bench' today. That's open to debate but what we didn't have were options in positions where we knew we might be found 'wanting', especially in those conditions. Got away with it in the end but a dangerous game to play.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:41 pm

zero options but could have stuck Vydra up top and Barnes on the wing or just swapped McNeil for Vydra. Daft decision not to take him off, risks injury etc

Giftonsnoidea · Post by **Giftonsnoidea** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:41 pm

We invited pressure onto us at the end as the players were so tired, lucky not to conceed again tbh. We really need to freshen things up for the last 30 mins of games.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:42 pm

Silkyskills1 wrote:Totally agree. On the radio on the way home someone in the studio was suggesting we had 'a strong bench' today. That's open to debate but what we didn't have were options in positions where we knew we might be found 'wanting', especially in those conditions. Got away with it in the end but a dangerous game to play.

In some ways we had a strong bench but a finely poised game of this importance wasn’t the right time to bring on Defour or Vydra. Hendrick would have probably come on to bolster the midfield had he not already been plugging a gap out wide. There wasn’t an obvious substitution to make today.

TheOriginalLongsider · Post by **TheOriginalLongsider** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:42 pm

I thought we were losing the midfield battles for most of the second half and was expecting Dyche to withdraw Wood or Barnes and stick Defour on rather than just replace like for like.

beddie · Post by **beddie** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:43 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Dyche gets his substitutions right far more often than he gets them wrong. Wood gives us the option of playing the ball into the channel which Vokes doesn’t, which is probably why he didn’t make the change earlier. That and the fact that despite not seeing much of the ball we looked pretty comfortable.

Sorry I have to disagree. We got lucky several times, they were at us most of the second half, we could hardly get out our half.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:49 pm

Bringing Vokes on would have done little as in the 2nd half we were only able pump it upfield but it soon came straight back with no support. Maybe Vokes could have held the ball up longer?

Defour our only bench midfielder is not a replacement for McNeil, he's a passer not a runner now. Also would have invited them onto us more taking off our pace. Saw similar when we were defending a lead and Gray was subbed off.

Seems Dyche thought a tired McNiel was preferable to a fresh Defour, there was the hope I'm sure of hitting them on the break.

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:09 pm

Whilst it is true that today Vokes was waiting ages for a chance to get on, it really is and always has been SD's Achilles heel. Other teams constantly come to The Turf and freshen things up and actually change the flow of a game with timely substitutions, but we really are slow to spot exactly when and where to make changes and at times it has been very costly.

scouseclaret · Post by **scouseclaret** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:17 pm

I’ve long thought use of subs is Dyche’s biggest weakness. It was crying out for change after an hour today. We were pinned in our own half with no outball - Wood’s lack of mobility in particular was massively frustrating.

By our standards we did have a very strong bench. There were any number of changes that could have been made that certainly wouldn’t have weakened the team. On a day like that with a heavy pitch, surely you should be bringing on fresh legs and making full use of what resources you have.

SD takes “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” to extremes!

paulatky · Post by **paulatky** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:22 pm

From my view the delay in bringing Vokes on was a debate about who should come off. Bardsley indicated that it was stupid to take Barnsey off and Vokes sat down again,

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:25 pm

He waited to put Sam on because he was having a running conversation with Ashley Barnes who took a knock early in the second half and he was trying to make sure which player to bring off. Ashley motioned to him to give it 5 minutes, which is why Sam sat down again. He then said that he was OK and Wood came off.
McNeil picked up a knock late in the first half and this probably affected his second half performance, the problem was that with the injuries and Brady being suspended we were struggling for a suitable player to fill the gap.
Good win in the end though and Fulham have now visited the Turf 32 times since April 1951 and have drawn 6 and lost 26 ---result was never in doubt for those of us who believe in history.

Goodclaret · Post by **Goodclaret** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:25 pm

I really do think the substitutes argument to beat Dyche with is a strange one. We have had many a game during his tenure where we have stuck with the same 11 and ground out wins and draws. These games seem to be forgotten. Making a sub "just to freshen it up" doesn't mean that's the correct decision. Today was a good example - we clearly were happy to absorb the Fulham pressure which we successfully did. Shouting "change it Dyche" (like someone did today) isn't overly constructive. Sometimes he can do a sub and it doesn't change a thing, I just feel most of the time (based on his continued success here) he gets it correct.

Winstonswhite · Post by **Winstonswhite** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:30 pm

Dyche has come out in the past saying that “statistics show that subs don’t make a blind bit of difference” - or words to that effect. His default position is therefore not to make any if at all possible. He’s a stubborn fecker and I doubt he’ll ever change.

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm

I think "change it Dyche" sits directly behind me!! And he starts with that shout after about 4 minutes every single game!!!!

steve1264b · Post by **steve1264b** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:35 pm

Does Dark Cloud have a couple of examples how teams constantly change the game against us at home by clever subs?

Goodclaret · Post by **Goodclaret** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:35 pm

Winstonswhite wrote:Dyche has come out in the past saying that “statistics show that subs don’t make a blind bit of difference” - or words to that effect. His default position is therefore not to make any if at all possible. He’s a stubborn fecker and I doubt he’ll ever change.

When he's spoken about them in the past he usually says making a sub, on the whole, doesn't guarantee much of change. Every so often (like Blackburn at Millwall today) they can and the manager looks like a genius. Sometimes, not making a sub can still be the match winner.

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:49 pm

Must be a horrible way of life not to be able to enjoy a win

Imagine winning 3rd league game on the trot and your mindset is what can I moan about

ksrclaret · Post by **ksrclaret** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:55 pm

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:Must be a horrible way of life not to be able to enjoy a win

Imagine winning 3rd league game on the trot and your mindset is what can I moan about

I don't think I've ever seen a post of yours that doesn't involve you criticising other posts.

That must also be a horrible way of life?

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:01 pm

steve1264b wrote:Does Dark Cloud have a couple of examples how teams constantly change the game against us at home by clever subs?

Well I can't quote specific games, but in general other teams make changes and they tend to make them pretty early in the second half, i.e. imo they are proactive in changing the flow of the game. Admittedly it doesn't absoutely always make a difference, but frequently it does, even if it doesn't ultimately change the result (like today), but there have been times when SD waits and waits and waits when certain players are so obviously tired out and becoming less and less effective, but he doesn't react until things have gone wrong and we are trying to retrieve a situation.

WestMidsClaret · Post by **WestMidsClaret** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:03 pm

Maybe SD is trying to get McNeil first team fit so he doesn't want to bring him off after 60 minutes. Plus lack of options doesn't help either.

We need better options from the bench because it's pretty much standard the subs he makes.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:03 pm

Winstonswhite wrote:Dyche has come out in the past saying that “statistics show that subs don’t make a blind bit of difference” - or words to that effect. His default position is therefore not to make any if at all possible. He’s a stubborn fecker and I doubt he’ll ever change.

Tell that to Alex Ferguson, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer and Teddy Sheringham.

Or Rafa Benitez, Vladimir Smicer and Didi Hamman.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:05 pm

Dark Cloud wrote:Whilst it is true that today Vokes was waiting ages for a chance to get on, it really is and always has been SD's Achilles heel. Other teams constantly come to The Turf and freshen things up and actually change the flow of a game with timely substitutions, but we really are slow to spot exactly when and where to make changes and at times it has been very costly.

Have to agree. When they were on top a change would have disrupted their dominance. Even briefly. An extra body in midfield may have give us more of a grip without actually affecting what we were doing up top as zero shots show.

A good win. An important win but lessons to be learnt.

CoolClaret · Post by **CoolClaret** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:05 pm

Winstonswhite wrote:Dyche has come out in the past saying that “statistics show that subs don’t make a blind bit of difference” - or words to that effect. His default position is therefore not to make any if at all possible. He’s a stubborn fecker and I doubt he’ll ever change.

Eeek really?

I remember Chelsea under Conte first season, he made 3 subs every single game.

steve1264b · Post by **steve1264b** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:32 pm

So we all agree that subs might change rhe game but often dont. The complaint is we dont make enough?

One poster suggests an extra midfielder, im guessing at the expenses of an attacker.

Another complains we should have replaced McNeil. With whom?

Who would be a manager? However here is the rub. You cant have it both ways.

We won today so he was spot on.

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:35 pm

steve1264b wrote:The complaint is we dont make enough?

I think the main complaint is we don't make them soon enough.

Cleveleys_claret · Post by **Cleveleys_claret** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:40 pm

Surely he would have planned for Mcneil tiring and had Ward on the bench. So he could bring him off and move Taylor up the pitch for the last 30 mins.

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:00 am

ksrclaret wrote:I don't think I've ever seen a post of yours that doesn't involve you criticising other posts.

That must also be a horrible way of life?

I’m very content being the exact opposite of you

One day you will grow a backbone

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:06 am

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:I’m very content being the exact opposite of you

One day you will grow a backbone

Thats good cos based on your posts you come across as very bitter about everything

turfytopper · Post by **turfytopper** » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:12 am

In the 2nd half, almost a third of their outfield players had fresh legs.....and it showed.
Don't think he had faith in Defour......?
Did seem strange that he left his one and only change so late (accepting the fact that he would have liked to have put Sam on a bit earlier).

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:01 am

I suppose the Fulham boards will be full of their fans celebrating their manager's clever use of substitutes?

Prefeot · Post by **Prefeot** » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:55 am

beddie wrote:Don't really go together do they. Yet again he is slow to make a change. 20 mins to go and Wood is not tackling, unable to hold the ball up, why at that point does he not bring Vokes on. Fresh legs, better at getting stuck in, holds the ball better. He (Dyche) needs to start being more proactive.

Dyche does seem to make substitutions to a formula (around the 60 minute mark and then the last 5 minutes of the match for the usual time wasting that all sides try), rather than to influence the game tactically. Having said that I can’t believe people saying in this thread he should have brought Vydra on !

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:49 am

The stats will always be against subs.

If you put 3 on then it's almost impossible for all three to score or assist.
Dyche got away with it today, keeping Wood on was a horrible decision.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:52 am

dsr wrote:I suppose the Fulham boards will be full of their fans celebrating their manager's clever use of substitutes?

They should be, it shows they can get better and be pro active. Game changing in fact.
A stone wall penalty and the Tarky clearance off the line should of produced a draw maybe a win for them.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:48 am

dsr wrote:I suppose the Fulham boards will be full of their fans celebrating their manager's clever use of substitutes?

A valid point, but let's also bear in mind that bringing Cairney on made Fulham a much more effective attacking force. Ok we held on but you can't say that Ranieri's use of subs didn't freshen his team up and increase his attacking options.

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:15 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote: Good win in the end though and Fulham have now visited the Turf 32 times since April 1951 and have drawn 6 and lost 26 ---result was never in doubt for those of us who believe in history.

As a student of 1066 and all that,then we are buggered when we play Wolves and Arsenal.

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:27 pm

mdd2 wrote:As a student of 1066 and all that,then we are buggered when we play Wolves and Arsenal.

MIke, I know that you are very much into the results history of our club and, as you correctly assume, when we play Wolves and Arsenal we are buggered. sometimes by very contentious decisions!!
Interesting to note that we have only won at Fulham 3 times in our last 20 visits.

Fulham made their substitutions, freshened their team up and lost --that's football.

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:39 pm

And as you said at 14.55 yesterday, looking at MOTD and the re-run of our first goal, Hendrick did score yesterday.
So I bow to a student of both history and a predictor of the future.
On that subject and on another post Shane Long gets credit for Schmeichel's OG yesterday.
Is it the same people who will have decided who scored those two goals yesterday?
If so not impressed by their quality control.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:40 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:MIke, I know that you are very much into the results history of our club and, as you correctly assume, when we play Wolves and Arsenal we are buggered. sometimes by very contentious decisions!!

tbf our results against Wolves over our last 20 games against them are not far from average.
Since 2002 - 20 games:
Won 7 Drawn 3 Lost 10

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:55 pm

Never beaten them in the Premier league, only played 3 but lost them all

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:06 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:tbf our results against Wolves over our last 20 games against them are not far from average.
Since 2002 - 20 games:
Won 7 Drawn 3 Lost 10

Unfortunately Mike and I go back a long way and since 1952 we have played them 79 times and won 20 drawn 19 and lost 40 times.
We have vivid memories going through from the 1970s right through to the early years of this century when we played them 30 times and won just 4 times.
Things have improved in more recent times. however, we ahve both always considered them as a 'bogey' team.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:20 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:Unfortunately Mike and I go back a long way and since 1952 we have played them 79 times and won 20 drawn 19 and lost 40 times.
We have vivid memories going through from the 1970s right through to the early years of this century when we played them 30 times and won just 4 times.
Things have improved in more recent times. however, we ahve both always considered them as a 'bogey' team.

Totally agree. I go back along way too, and had up until recently regarded them as a bogey team. (Was simply pointing out that in recent times our record isn't bad.)