Lads listen, been thinking about this is a lot lately. As humans we're put on this earth to live, strive and survive. We live, we learn. ANYTHING can happen, its how we deal with it that matters...how we conduct ourselves. Some are stonger than others. Some dont make the grade. We're all animals at heart. Its dog eat dog. Its the human condition.

Millertime v1.7 wrote:Lads listen, been thinking about this is a lot lately. As humans we're put on this earth to live, strive and survive. We live, we learn. ANYTHING can happen, its how we deal with it that matters...how we conduct ourselves. Some are stonger than others. Some dont make the grade. We're all animals at heart. Its dog eat dog. Its the human condition.

To be continued?...

Yeah, i guess one day. I didn't want to overstate it. You take away from it what you bring to it.

Millertime v1.7 wrote:Lads listen, been thinking about this is a lot lately. As humans we're put on this earth to live, strive and survive. We live, we learn. ANYTHING can happen, its how we deal with it that matters...how we conduct ourselves. Some are stonger than others. Some dont make the grade. We're all animals at heart. Its dog eat dog. Its the human condition.

spot on. I always say life is but a circumstance

Is empathy a big part of the human condition? ‘Some don’t make the grade’ ‘I’ts dog eat dog’ , we support other humans who need it thankfully.

Millertime v1.7 wrote:Lads listen, been thinking about this is a lot lately. As humans we're put on this earth to live, strive and survive. We live, we learn. ANYTHING can happen, its how we deal with it that matters...how we conduct ourselves. Some are stonger than others. Some dont make the grade. We're all animals at heart. Its dog eat dog. Its the human condition.

There are too many people in this country that don't strive for whatever reason. Some give up and others might think that the state should look after them.
Once you do stop striving for things I firmly believe it is all downhill.

Life's a bitch and then you die ..

The word "intelligence" seems to be missing in this discussion.

I think the human condition is what lifts us above the 'dog eat dog' situation. Our ability to rationalise and actually think about consequences (something missing from all other species as far as we know) is what sets humans apart from other animals. Yes we are indeed animals but we are thinking, reasoning animals and regardless of what people may think we are, as far as we know, the most highly developed form of intelligence on this planet. No other animal asks questions, no other animal has the ability to think about the future and plan ahead, no other animal strives for 'the good' or for 'better'. We have moved on from the day to day.
Of course all this brings with it other problems. Very few species other than us make war (the only ones I can think of other than us is possibly ants who 'appear' to make war on termites). No other animals are 'cruel' for its own sake (the only cruelty they inflict is the need for food and survival). All the other downsides that come with being human such as jealousy, greed, pride etc. seem to be missing from other animals.
The irony is that what makes us stand apart from other animals, what makes us more successful and 'better' is quite probably the same thing that will ultimately be our downfall. Our intelligence has brought us better health, more comforts and a life that, even at its worst, is better than the daily struggle of the wild, but war, greed, the blindness of many in power to see what we are doing to the planet, the desire of the powerful to gain more at the expense of the weak, individually and collectively, looks to be the weakness that will see us fall.

Who knows.

Think you make a few errors with your assessment houseboy but you do recognise the one thing it is currently believed that only Humans are able to do and that is understand the concept of the future

Animals do think and rationalise and show moral behaviour and one of the best studies that discovered this was the study of social play in juvenile rats. I wont bore people with the details but some of the learnings from this are mind blowing

Also Animals do wage war and with one of the best examples and studies around Chimpanzees who will attack and absolutely tear other tribes to pieces and decimate them for no reason at all

I'm about half way through Dr Peterson's Maps of Meanings lectures and its really starting to get deeply into where a lot of our motivations and reasons why we act the way we do comes from deep within our evolutionary history

Siddo wrote:There are too many people in this country that don't strive for whatever reason. Some give up and others might think that the state should look after them.
Once you do stop striving for things I firmly believe it is all downhill.

Spot on. I know a few like that. And i cant understand it. I dont even think its depression in some cases. More bitterness. Towards 'the system' and not wanting to be a part of it. But if you believe in 'the system' but think by sitting at home rotting takes you out of it youre wrong.

So many people who think the world owes them etc. Or its never their fault...

Fk that put 100 percent into every day. Well maybe have the odd day off like but...

houseboy wrote:I think the human condition is what lifts us above the 'dog eat dog' situation. Our ability to rationalise and actually think about consequences (something missing from all other species as far as we know) is what sets humans apart from other animals. Yes we are indeed animals but we are thinking, reasoning animals and regardless of what people may think we are, as far as we know, the most highly developed form of intelligence on this planet. No other animal asks questions, no other animal has the ability to think about the future and plan ahead, no other animal strives for 'the good' or for 'better'. We have moved on from the day to day.
Of course all this brings with it other problems. Very few species other than us make war (the only ones I can think of other than us is possibly ants who 'appear' to make war on termites). No other animals are 'cruel' for its own sake (the only cruelty they inflict is the need for food and survival). All the other downsides that come with being human such as jealousy, greed, pride etc. seem to be missing from other animals.
The irony is that what makes us stand apart from other animals, what makes us more successful and 'better' is quite probably the same thing that will ultimately be our downfall. Our intelligence has brought us better health, more comforts and a life that, even at its worst, is better than the daily struggle of the wild, but war, greed, the blindness of many in power to see what we are doing to the planet, the desire of the powerful to gain more at the expense of the weak, individually and collectively, looks to be the weakness that will see us fall.

Who knows.

Absolutely. Those same emotions and thought processes are what also make you overthink and vulnerable etc.

I guess you cant have one without the other.

FactualFrank wrote:To be continued?...

Hope not

I think along some of the same lines as Houseboy (and a couple of other subsequent views). The "Human Condition" is different from purely animal because of consciousness/language. Yes- we are animals at heart and that side of our nature is there to see every day but we have, for better or worse, more than that.
Consciousness means we are far more aware of our place in the world/the consequences of our actions and have the ability to make moral judgements. Do other animals feel shame, embarrassment, pride, strive towards altruism etc?
Our ability with language/writing means that we've been able to store knowledge/pass on knowledge so each individual's learning/experiences dont just die with that individual. Hence we've now accumulated a huge amount of knowledge about the universe, this planet, history, medicine, other countries etc.
It's all a double-edged sword- consider (sub)atomic research and what huge strides in technology/understanding that brought + the ability for huge scale destruction.

I'm not sure if these extra faculties make us happier/more content than "the animals of the field" who are blissfully unaware of some of the disturbing things about existence.

The current media politics of divide and rule and setting one set of folk off against another, encourages a 'dog eat dog' mentality, bringing such phrases as 'alpha male' into culture as if we were part of a herd of animals. Never in my youth was this phrase used. Dogs generally don't eat dogs anyway, they are very sociable creatures.

Humans have built a complex civilization based around manufacture, transport and trade, underpinned by civil law. In actual fact, stress is enervating and leads to bad workmanship, accident and misfortune and lack of creativity and poor health, so in the long run, 'divide and rule' is counter productive. The collective unconscious is at that point right now.

Having said that, if these are the conditions of life, then they are the conditions to negotiate and like it says on the plane safety drill, if the oxygen masks come down, use one yourself before you try and help others.

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Absolutely. Those same emotions and thought processes are what also make you overthink and vulnerable etc.

I guess you cant have one without the other.

Don't know if you have ever seen the film Forbidden Planet from the 50's? It is loosely based on Shakespeares The Tempest and was way ahead of it's time when it was released. The ancient and extinct people of the planet Altair, the Krell, (who are obviously never seen in the film) were victims of their own incredible intellect and suffered complete and total anhilation overnight due to an invention that was to boost intelligence and IQ to unheard of levels. Okay, science fiction, but the story, whilst being about one man's obsession with attaining the Krell intellect, also proves to be a cautionary tale about what can happen despite of, or even because of, intelligence. What the Krell missed on their way to this peak of intelligence were the 'monsters from the Id', the base desire to kill and destroy, the unknown depths of the ancient mind that still lurked underneath. I wonder if, in the longer term, we will also suffer a similar fate? We have already invented weapons that could destroy all life on earth, we have created a situation that may result in irrevserable climate change and our population growth is almost at the dreaded 'tipping point' where only something drastic could halt or reverse it.
But the intelligence that created the potential horror can also be used to change things for the better and maybe we can avoid the abyss altogether.

An early role for Leslie Neilson (Naked Gun and Airplane) in Forbidden Planet
Playing the captain of the space ship Commander Adams

For some people life is just one big sh!t sandwich, and every day they take another bite !

We were not 'put on this earth' to do anything. We have just as much importance than the **** under your fingernails.

Funkydrummer wrote:For some people life is just one big sh!t sandwich, and every day they take another bite !

You must shop at the same Tesco Express that I do.

Devils_Advocate wrote:Think you make a few errors with your assessment houseboy but you do recognise the one thing it is currently believed that only Humans are able to do and that is understand the concept of the future

Animals do think and rationalise and show moral behaviour and one of the best studies that discovered this was the study of social play in juvenile rats. I wont bore people with the details but some of the learnings from this are mind blowing

Also Animals do wage war and with one of the best examples and studies around Chimpanzees who will attack and absolutely tear other tribes to pieces and decimate them for no reason at all

I'm about half way through Dr Peterson's Maps of Meanings lectures and its really starting to get deeply into where a lot of our motivations and reasons why we act the way we do comes from deep within our evolutionary history

I had thought of the chimpanzee 'wars' DA but I wasn't sure. I know animals feel emotion and particularly elephants are amazingly caring but in the main it's the exception that proves the rule.
The concept of the future lies with the ability to know the flow of time and cause and effect. As my wife told me years ago and I have observed it many times since (she was told about this when doing her psychology degree years ago) animals (and very young children - pre-toddler really) cannot grasp the concept of cause in that if you stand behind one and roll a ball past them they will often follow the ball visually or otherwise but they will never turn to look where it has come from.
All fascinating stuff.

houseboy wrote:Don't know if you have ever seen the film Forbidden Planet from the 50's? It is loosely based on Shakespeares The Tempest and was way ahead of it's time when it was released. The ancient and extinct people of the planet Altair, the Krell, (who are obviously never seen in the film) were victims of their own incredible intellect and suffered complete and total anhilation overnight due to an invention that was to boost intelligence and IQ to unheard of levels. Okay, science fiction, but the story, whilst being about one man's obsession with attaining the Krell intellect, also proves to be a cautionary tale about what can happen despite of, or even because of, intelligence. What the Krell missed on their way to this peak of intelligence were the 'monsters from the Id', the base desire to kill and destroy, the unknown depths of the ancient mind that still lurked underneath. I wonder if, in the longer term, we will also suffer a similar fate? We have already invented weapons that could destroy all life on earth, we have created a situation that may result in irrevserable climate change and our population growth is almost at the dreaded 'tipping point' where only something drastic could halt or reverse it.
But the intelligence that created the potential horror can also be used to change things for the better and maybe we can avoid the abyss altogether.

I havent but will have to watch it now.

Its similar to why many geniuses or highly intelligent people suffer with anxiety, depression and even frustration. They over analyse things way too much. Understand things that they dont need to etc

houseboy wrote:I had thought of the chimpanzee 'wars' DA but I wasn't sure. I know animals feel emotion and particularly elephants are amazingly caring but in the main it's the exception that proves the rule.
The concept of the future lies with the ability to know the flow of time and cause and effect. As my wife told me years ago and I have observed it many times since (she was told about this when doing her psychology degree years ago) animals (and very young children - pre-toddler really) cannot grasp the concept of cause in that if you stand behind one and roll a ball past them they will often follow the ball visually or otherwise but they will never turn to look where it has come from.
All fascinating stuff.

Its a great subject especially coming at it from a psychological perspective (something I am only just getting interested in). There's no doubt that the complexity we have developed in our brains really puts us head and shoulders above animals in terms of intelligent thought and conciousness but a lot of it is still underpinned by basic unconscious actions we share with most species that have been developed through survival and natural selection

The study around Rats that showed the understand concepts of fairness and morality and the consequences of actions is well worth looking into. I learned about it through the lectures so not sure where to locate the original study but I'm sure in this internet age it cant be heard to track down.

Siddo wrote:There are too many people in this country that don't strive for whatever reason. Some give up and others might think that the state should look after them.
Once you do stop striving for things I firmly believe it is all downhill.

Out of curiosity, what are we supposed to be striving for?

The Naked Ape - Desmond Morris.

I'm not much of a reader but that book enthralled me. Well worth a read.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Morris" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

cricketfieldclarets wrote:I havent but will have to watch it now.

Its similar to why many geniuses or highly intelligent people suffer with anxiety, depression and even frustration. They over analyse things way too much. Understand things that they dont need to etc

Id also say that a massive personality trait that is a key link to high intelligence is Openness and if someone is really high in Openness and really high in Neuroticism you are going to have a potential recipe for what you describe above

While playing with my cat this week, I googled ‘Do cats have a sense of humour?’ It turns out they don’t... dogs do though.

Dogs understand human affection, happiness and laughter, dogs behave in ways to make us laugh.

Cats just use humans to amuse themselves.

claptrappers_union wrote:While playing with my cat this week, I googled ‘Do cats have a sense of humour?’ It turns out they don’t... dogs do though.
Dogs understand human affection, happiness and laughter, dogs behave in ways to make us laugh.
Cats just use humans to amuse themselves.

The average dog is as intelligent as a two-year-old child. But yeah they know when we're sad.

claptrappers_union wrote:While playing with my cat this week, I googled ‘Do cats have a sense of humour?’ It turns out they don’t... dogs do though.

Dogs understand human affection, happiness and laughter, dogs behave in ways to make us laugh.

Cats just use humans to amuse themselves.

What sort of games were you playing? how long can you and the cat humor each other without being bored senseless. All the cat is thinking is feed me clear out the litter and if I weighed 100 kilos you would be dead .

Funkydrummer wrote:The Naked Ape - Desmond Morris.

I'm not much of a reader but that book enthralled me. Well worth a read.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Morris" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Almost certain ive read that but can't find it in my audible account. But sure ive read it at some point.

claptrappers_union wrote:While playing with my cat this week

Is that a euphemism?

Apollo 8 astronaut James Lovell:
"God has given us a stage on which to perform. How the play turns out is up to us."

claptrappers_union wrote:We were not 'put on this earth' to do anything. We have just as much importance than the **** under your fingernails.

When a Hundred men stand together they lose their minds.....and gain another. Said Fred

cricketfieldclarets wrote:I havent but will have to watch it now.

Its similar to why many geniuses or highly intelligent people suffer with anxiety, depression and even frustration. They over analyse things way too much. Understand things that they dont need to etc

It is well worth a watch but don't expect Spielbergian special effects. Brilliant in their day but obviously dated now. If you know the story of the Tempest (I saw a brilliant production of it at the Royal Shakespeare in Stratford years ago) you will see the similarity (intended apparently). It stars Walter Pidgeon and an early lead role by Leslie Nielson (odd watching him being serious but he's excellent). Maybe it's because I first saw it as a kid but the final scenes are truly suspensful and scary to me. It's typical of many films of it's genre and time in that apart from a scene were the 'monster' is caught in laser cross-fire (you only see it's outline) you don't actually see it at all, only the effect of it's actions.

Devils_Advocate wrote:Its a great subject especially coming at it from a psychological perspective (something I am only just getting interested in). There's no doubt that the complexity we have developed in our brains really puts us head and shoulders above animals in terms of intelligent thought and conciousness but a lot of it is still underpinned by basic unconscious actions we share with most species that have been developed through survival and natural selection

The study around Rats that showed the understand concepts of fairness and morality and the consequences of actions is well worth looking into. I learned about it through the lectures so not sure where to locate the original study but I'm sure in this internet age it cant be heard to track down.

I need to take a look at that. What I find odd is the fact that it is said animals don't have memory but we have always had dogs and my Staffy always goes nuts when I mention 'walk' or 'out' and he always knows where his harness and lead are and brings them to me. Having said that I once read that dogs in general can recognise up to 200 hundred words (which is more than some on here can I think).