#politicslive

[nil_desperandum]

Someone asked why i point to a dictatorship and my answer is in some countries people have been made to vote again because the original outcome was not what the establishment was expecting. That is what is happening here.

Except Theresa May went to the country in 2017 asking for a big mandate from the people for her distorted version of brexit, and the people voted for the 632 MPS who voted this evening in Parliament. Brexit was supposed to be all about the sovereignty of Parliament. Bercow's ruling last week asserted and ensured that MPS - not the govt are in control. which is exactly as it should be.
It's May, (held to ransom by extremist elements) who has attempted to usurp the authority of Parliament / MPs / the People, but our democratic system, Gina Miller, the Judges, the Lords, Dominic Grieve and now the MPs have ensured that Parliament remains sovereign (in charge), not the executive. I believe it's called taking back control.

[dougcollins]

Dolly dealers?

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

A second referendum is vitally important to allow the people who voted leave in the first one to correct their mistake.
Imagine if we actually did leave and you had to carry that around for the rest of your life?
You might as well get "I am an idiot" tattooed on your forehead.

[hampsteadclaret]

49.. do you mean fake claims/ lies about Osborne and his ‘Emergency Budget’ ********..?

[ClaretAL]

Good to see people still petrified of a second referendum.

Listen to that sentence "2nd Referendum" that means best out of three really in an age that has been run democratically right up until the highest turnout of public vote in modern day terms turned out and voted on what they wanted. The Establishment dont agree and all those that voted leave must have been intoxicated not to agree with the remainers, I mean how very dare they!!!! Absolute disgraceful scenes in a country where democracy was the only sovereignty left.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

It would probably be "I are an idoit".

[FactualFrank]

But when the lib dems and conservative joined up together, do you think they should have given those voters an opportunity to decide whether they would have voted lib dem knowing the deal they had to accept to get into power? Im pretty sure if it had been known that university fees were going to end up with what we have now, they wouldn't have voted.

It's politics and it's not perfect but the referendum question posed was quite clear and there should be no confusion about that - Leave or remain.

No - leave but only if my personal views are fully met option.

There is no winner. Like I say, I can see why people voted leave. I can see why people voted remain. It was never a simple option. We always needed a mix - something inbetween.

[duncandisorderly]

Frustrating as hell, but the **** up we are heading for will be 100% self inflicted. Desperately sad.

52% self inflicted.

[Darthlaw]

Course, I forgot the doozy about "ONE VOTE AND THATS ******* IT, NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO CHANGE THEIR MIND"

Lancaster, can you give me an example in the past where the public has changed their mind PRIOR to implementation and the act voted for been cancelled?

[CrosspoolClarets]

An unprecedented rejection but for very different reasons, for some the deal was too hard, for others it was too soft. Only those on Government payroll or a May close friend will have voted for it.

A few clowns like Umunna push for a Revote but he fails to grasp that both big parties would have to lobby to leave - otherwise their voter share would be decimated at the next GE (the hard left’s Paul Mason said on Newsnight the other day that he fully appreciates that the 70 seats Labour need to win for a decent majority are virtually all Leave seats).

That, and the public fury for being stitched up, would make another Leave win a foregone conclusion. It would be a disaster though - if friends and family can fall out over the first honest vote, what would the upset be if half of them think the next vote would be unfair and undemocratic?

So I suspect we won’t go there. The odious Gina Millar has made sure (by Parliament getting a vote) that we can’t run the clock down and let the EU make some last minute concessions (the normal tactic in negotiations). So it feels like the EU have no incentive to offer anything and we will end up in a permenant Customs Union - which will shackle the UK because it isn’t just about new trade deals, it is about the ability to control our own tariffs and quotas. Semi-permenant stagnation awaits.

The People’s Revote would then turn into the People’s Revolt and the punishment would be long, brutal and unpredictable (so I won’t try). What fun. Is all that really worse than a brief no deal?

[clarethomer]

Course, I forgot the doozy about "ONE VOTE AND THATS ******* IT, NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO CHANGE THEIR MIND"

Up there with "they need us more than we need them"

I'm listening to Brexiteers saying the same old lies to radio stations because they know people like you don't want to believe anything else.

Frustrating as hell, but the **** up we are heading for will be 100% self inflicted. Desperately sad.

That is why I think given where we are, we have a logical step to understand what we want in terms of our future relationship with the EU when we leave.

It is equally frustrating for those who have to listened to those who voted remain and that project fear rolled out a load of lies too. I'm fed up of hearing that those who voted to leave didn't really know what they were doing and they must have now changed their minds etc.

It's always easy to argue that the known is better than the unknown but you know what, the unknown doesn't necessarily mean you can't end up in a better position. There are no guarantees of what will be in 1,5,10,20 years beyond - Whether we are in or out of the EU.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

There is no winner. Like I say, I can see why people voted leave. I can see why people voted remain. It was never a simple option. We always needed a mix - something inbetween.

Releave?

[Lancasterclaret]

The only reason Brexiteers don't want a 2nd ref is that they fear they would lose as people are now better informed.

Lets be honest here eh?

[ClaretAL]

A second referendum is vitally important to allow the people who voted leave in the first one to correct their mistake.
Imagine if we actually did leave and you had to carry that around for the rest of your life?
You might as well get "I am an idiot" tattooed on your forehead.

This is exactly the attitude of why so many people actually turned out to vote, to make this kind of idiot realise you dont have to be sheep to know what you want.

[duncandisorderly]

I'm in no way a political expert, but I thought once Article 50 was triggered there was no going back?

Can we literally just decide to stay and everything goes back to normal? (as in, within the EU. Some people here will be furious about it, natch.)

[Burnley Ace]

Doesn’t Article 13 just apply to EU countries therefore if we leave it wouldn’t apply to us?

[Darthlaw]

The only reason Brexiteers don't want a 2nd ref is that they fear they would lose as people are now better informed.

Lets be honest here eh?

I'm better informed. I now know that it will be much more difficult to achieve a deal because we have a minority in our society who wish to make it difficult. A minority who will seek to undermine democratic decisions taken by the UK public and will seek to strengthen those we are negotiating with. I was uneducated that those who campaigned/voted to remain would accept the result (begrudgingly, of course) and work towards the decision of the referendum.

Most of all, I'm now informed what I'm voting for; Remain or another referendum until I get it right.

[Burnley Ace]

I'm in no way a political expert, but I thought once Article 50 was triggered there was no going back?

Can we literally just decide to stay and everything goes back to normal? (as in, within the EU. Some people here will be furious about it, natch.)

Yes we can - ECJ ruling last month.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

This is exactly the attitude of why so many people actually turned out to vote, to make this kind of idiot realise you dont have to be sheep to know what you want.

...but it helps

[Devils_Advocate]

Bring out your dead

[CombatClaret]

I'm in no way a political expert, but I thought once Article 50 was triggered there was no going back?

Can we literally just decide to stay and everything goes back to normal? (as in, within the EU. Some people here will be furious about it, natch.)

We could apply for an extension to A50 but the EU (all 27 states) would have to agree. They have though said we could call it all off and we'd go back to normal with no terms changed.

Making it more like a normal negotiation where if you can't agree terms you go back to your old job, car, house or in this case trading bloc.

[nil_desperandum]

Because when given the opportunity to decide whether you wanted to remain in the EU or wanted to leave it, the majority of those that voted, did so to leave.

The people decided to leave. Logically if we cannot decide how to leave and those individuals who represent us are struggling to come to this conclusion then once again, a further vote seems sensible so they can understand the will of the people.

You cannot go back and re-run the first vote when you haven't even delivered it yet.

Is that coherent enough for you?

It's not even an argument that addresses the question let alone logical or coherent. Your statement was that having a referendum would be undemocratic. You haven't addressed this. Put simply, how can any advisory vote of the people be undemocratic at any point in history - unless it was rigged in some way?

Do I take it, based on your penultimate sentence that you supported May's deal and that would have been an end to it? ... since the deal voted on and defeated this evening would indeed have "delivered it" for you.

[Lancasterclaret]

Cheers Darthlaw

It would have saved you some trouble if you'd just said "True"

[Burnley Ace]

However bad May was tonight she was still more statesmanlike and realistic than that cockwomble Corbyn.

[dougcollins]

I believe article 50 can be revoked unilaterally (only by us).

It can only be extended with the agreement of a majority of EU nations.

[Lancasterclaret]

That is it in a nutshell Doug.

[Darthlaw]

Cheers Darthlaw

It would have saved you some trouble if you'd just said "True"

I'm not concerned another referendum will be lost though, just that I have now seen the ilk of those wishing to subvert democracy.

The question is what happens next when we vote leave again..?

[Bin Ont Turf]

Anyone know why the water is off?

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

However bad May was tonight she was still more statesmanlike and realistic than that cockwomble Corbyn.

And that is the really really depressing state of UK politics at the minute even with her ineptness folk would still prefer her as PM. What a time to be alive!

[Bordeauxclaret]

Listen to that sentence "2nd Referendum" that means best out of three really in an age that has been run democratically right up until the highest turnout of public vote in modern day terms turned out and voted on what they wanted. The Establishment dont agree and all those that voted leave must have been intoxicated not to agree with the remainers, I mean how very dare they!!!! Absolute disgraceful scenes in a country where democracy was the only sovereignty left.

It’s a shitshow Al. Absolute shitshow.
Could we have made a fist of Brexit with able politicians across the board? Possibly.
Unfortunately we have got current politicians in positions of power that know their arse from their elbow.

Still, if you are happy with the ways things are panning out and confident that you’d win another democratic vote now that more is known about the issue then what’s the problem?

[dougcollins]

'Anyone know why the water is off?'

Because it's owned by a French company?

[nil_desperandum]

I believe article 50 can be revoked unilaterally (only by us).

It can only be extended with the agreement of a majority of EU nations.

Amounts to the same thing doesn't it?
To extend we simply revoke on March 29th and - if / when we choose to do so - re-invoke at any time of our own choosing. That extends it without EU involvement.

[Lancasterclaret]

Then you shouldn't worry about it being held then should you?

if you want to give me a solution that doesn't involve it going back to the voters then I'm all ears*

*but I'm not in the mood for any of the Brexit bullshit of the past two years if you don't mind

[Cirrus_Minor]

She’s lost a parliament vote by a record amount. Has a government that has the most horrendous policies since and including Thatcher’s disaster. She’s split the nation over a policy that hardly anyone cared about previously.

Yet Corbyn is a cockwomble.

[Devils_Advocate]

Its all got too much for Ringo

[Lancasterclaret]

But he is though

He's going to look bloody stupid tomorrow when he loses that vote.

[ClaretAL]

The problem is the youth has been targeted and bought it hook, line and sinker, and now what was 14 year old originally, a generation that have been pinpointed for no respect and lawlessness are now 16 and can vote in this. Taking in to account what our forefathers died for i find it an absolute disgrace to there bravery to be honest. And to make matters worse we have a no confidence vote which could create a general election, which will probably vote in Labour just to show opposition and we get a PM who backed the IRA and wont wear a poppy and disagrees with honouring our fallen. this is where we are heading.....REALLY????

[Bordeauxclaret]

I don’t know what Ringo did to get banned this time but he needs to be brought back tonight.
He’d be great value.

[nil_desperandum]

But he is though

He's going to look bloody stupid tomorrow when he loses that vote.

Tend to agree, but did he really have any option??

[clarethomer]

It's not even an argument that addresses the question let alone logical or coherent. Your statement was that having a referendum would be undemocratic. You haven't addressed this. Put simply, how can any advisory vote of the people be undemocratic at any point in history - unless it was rigged in some way?

Do I take it, based on your penultimate sentence that you supported May's deal and that would have been an end to it? ... since the deal voted on and defeated this evening would indeed have "delivered it" for you.

Say again?

I said that having a 2nd vote to try and reverse the first one would be undemocratic.

I wouldn't take anything I have said to indicate how I wanted to leave - even this sentence.

You wanted a coherent reason to why I felt that it was wrong to consider remain being an option in a potential 2nd vote and I have explained that - it's not complicated surely.

You clearly disagree, which is your right to do so. Hope you have a nice evening.

[clarethomer]

However bad May was tonight she was still more statesmanlike and realistic than that cockwomble Corbyn.

He's consistent though - can't agree with either his own or the opposition party.

[nil_desperandum]

The question is what happens next when we vote leave again..?

Well that would obviously settle it. Many people wouldn't be happy but it would put the issue to bed, and we'd just have to see how our "No deal" "Brave New World" turned out.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

The problem is the youth has been targeted and bought it hook, line and sinker, and now what was 14 year old originally, a generation that have been pinpointed for no respect and lawlessness are now 16 and can vote in this. Taking in to account what our forefathers died for i find it an absolute disgrace to there bravery to be honest. And to make matters worse we have a no confidence vote which could create a general election, which will probably vote in Labour just to show opposition and we get a PM who backed the IRA and wont wear a poppy and disagrees with honouring our fallen. this is where we are heading.....REALLY????

Just let it all out! Didn’t our forefathers die for democracy like being able to vote freely in a General Election for example?

[Devils_Advocate]

I don’t know what Ringo did to get banned this time but he needs to be brought back tonight.
He’d be great value.

It was a travesty we didnt have his political commentary on Bercows antics over the last week. It would have been messageboard gold

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

I'm not concerned another referendum will be lost though, just that I have now seen the ilk of those wishing to subvert democracy.

The question is what happens next when we vote leave again..?

Won't happen, Remain will crush it in the people's vote.

What happened to the "you lost, get over it" posts we had for the last two and half years? The superior crowing and belittling, the bragging and the boasting?

The true colours of the leave voter have been revealed over the last two and a half years, it wasn't a vote for sovereignty or a rejection of globalism, it was a small-minded, petty vote for racism and division and the idea that people who didn't conform to expected standards could be subjugated and bullied.

If leave voters want to cry and whinge and claim it was unfair then even better as far as I'm concerned, they should be made to feel small and isolated so they know how it feels to be in the hostile environment they wanted to create for people they don't think are British.

I'd be happier to make it ten votes, ten referendums with leave winning the first nine and then being rerun until the tenth is remain and it's accepted, the more injust, offended and betrayed the leave voter finally feels when the whole sorry mess gets sh1tcanned THE BETTER.

[claret3561]

Lancasterclaret wrote:
The only reason Brexiteers don't want a 2nd ref is that they fear they would lose as people are now better informed.

Lets be honest here eh?

I voted to leave originally, I would vote to leave in a second referendum and if the remainers won I would still vote to leave in the decider.

[Bordeauxclaret]

It was a travesty we didnt have his political commentary on Bercows antics over the last week. It would have been messageboard gold

ClaretAl is covering for him I think.

[CombatClaret]

The problem is the youth has been targeted and bought it hook, line and sinker, and now what was 14 year old originally, a generation that have been pinpointed for no respect and lawlessness are now 16 and can vote in this. Taking in to account what our forefathers died for i find it an absolute disgrace to there bravery to be honest.

There's so much wrong with this statement, where to begin?

- You have to be 18 to vote in the UK not 16. You've said the young are being targeted with no proof, and the age you mention could not vote if a 2nd referendum was called tomorrow.
- The aged were deliberately and provably targeted to leave, the difference is the young have to live in the future, voted on by the old living in the past. What's more it's a proven physiological cognitive bias to view the past more favorably and future negatively
- World Wars have nothing at all to do with the EU, except maybe a reaction post war to unite Europe and ensure another doesn't happen

[Devils_Advocate]

ClaretAl is covering for him I think.

Haha true but no way has he got Ringo's stamina or staying power. That said he's earning his keep tonight

[nil_desperandum]

Say again?

I said that having a 2nd vote to try and reverse the first one would be undemocratic.

I wouldn't take anything I have said to indicate how I wanted to leave - even this sentence.

You wanted a coherent reason to why I felt that it was wrong to consider remain being an option in a potential 2nd vote and I have explained that - it's not complicated surely.

You clearly disagree, which is your right to do so. Hope you have a nice evening.

You've explained why you disagree with a further vote, but you haven't put forward a semantic argument as to how any referendum can be undemocratic or how democracy simply ended in June 2016.
I reciprocate your good wishes for a nice evening, and am happy to "agree to disagree".