#politicslive

[Greenmile]

The problem is the youth has been targeted and bought it hook, line and sinker, and now what was 14 year old originally, a generation that have been pinpointed for no respect and lawlessness are now 16 and can vote in this. Taking in to account what our forefathers died for i find it an absolute disgrace to there bravery to be honest. And to make matters worse we have a no confidence vote which could create a general election, which will probably vote in Labour just to show opposition and we get a PM who backed the IRA and wont wear a poppy and disagrees with honouring our fallen. this is where we are heading.....REALLY????

Who says our 14-16 year olds are disrespectful and lawless (apart from you, I mean)?

And can we see a picture of this leaflet your son brought home, please? (is he a disrespectful / lawless 14-16 year old?)

[Blackrod]

If there was another referendum vote and the result was 52% Remain and 48% Leave then all the leavers should throw their toys out of the pram and demand another vote until there is a satisfactory outcome.

[Lancasterclaret]

I've got news for the Brexiteers on here.

Fantastic, you are even more determined to vote to leave again. Good for you, your perseverance does you credit.

Every. Single. Poll. suggests that not everyone shares your levels of perseverance.

And the new voters who have come of age since 2016 are about 3:1 in favour of remain.

And the elderly voters who have gone to the great big Brexit in the sky are about 3:1 in favour of leave

Reality folks.

I want us to leave with a deal, but its a peoples vote ahead of a "No Deal" every single time.

[Greenmile]

If there was another referendum vote and the result was 52% Remain and 48% Leave then all the leavers should throw their toys out of the pram and demand another vote until there is a satisfactory outcome.

They will, and they would have.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics- ... m-36306681" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[CombatClaret]

The problem is the youth has been targeted and bought it hook, line and sinker, and now what was 14 year old originally, a generation that have been pinpointed for no respect and lawlessness are now 16 and can vote in this

At present you have to be 18 to vote in a GE or referendum

If you are going to have a break down at least get basic facts correct.

[Down_Rover]

Lancaster, can you give me an example in the past where the public has changed their mind PRIOR to implementation and the act voted for been cancelled?

The appointment of Winston Churchill as PM in 1940.

A very unpopular appointment at the time

[Blackrod]

The people who have 'come of age' have little experience of different governments and the effect of European involvement versus otherwise. Similarly students often adopt radical views until a more experience and rounded judgement results in more balanced views.

[Lancasterclaret]

Old people believe any old junk.

Both them and the students have every right to vote, and its ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

[Taffy on the wing]

So when the next party that wins the General election, if we dont like the outcome can we have a second go at it because of the ******** we didn't understand, absolute Hippocracy and this country is becoming a dictatorship which our forefathers must be turning in the graves. all this rubbish of "ahh but you now have more knowledge" could be cast over every single election ever run, as none of them deliver what they say.

For the Millionth time! The public was misled and lied to in the run-up to the Brexit vote..........even Putin and his bots were involved!
If this goes to a second referendum, Remain will win handily!

[Darthlaw]

The appointment of Winston Churchill as PM in 1940.

A very unpopular appointment at the time

So Churchill was voted in by the public, they changed their mind and voted him out prior to his appointment as PM in 1940?

Did you not understand the question or just changing history?

[ClaretAL]

For the Millionth time! The public was misled and lied to in the run-up to the Brexit vote..........even Putin and his bots were involved!
If this goes to a second referendum, Remain will win handily!

Like every General election then?????????

[Espia]

What I find difficult is all the assumptions people pontificate.

"People have changed their mind" -- really? How do you know. Please, you're not qouting a minimalist poll are you.

" A no deal will be disastrous" . So, that's a fact then.

"You didn't know what you were voting for" . Thanks for knowing my mind more than I do.

"People have a firm idea about what they're voting for this time so we should vote again". Really?. I was clearer about it first time round. Now it's more confusing than before and I'm even more distrustful about what I hear.

Apparently democracy means continual referendums about whether we want to remain or leave.

Well that's the interpretation I get from the likes of Lancaster claret. Assuming of course he doesn't mean democracy ends when he gets the result he wants. He surely means as events change people have a continual right to vote again on the issue ... Ad-infinitum.

[FactualFrank]

For the Millionth time! The public was misled and lied to in the run-up to the Brexit vote..........even Putin and his bots were involved!
If this goes to a second referendum, Remain will win handily!

Which is why leavers don't want it. They know they will lose. I know that, they know what, you know that.

We all know that.

[CombatClaret]

The people who have 'come of age' have little experience of different governments and the effect of European involvement versus otherwise. Similarly students often adopt radical views until a more experience and rounded judgement results in more balanced views.

I have little knowledge of the effect of the Holy Roman Empire verses otherwise...
If you people "coming of age" are happy with the status quo; the world they grew up in, should they not be respected for defending it?

[clarethomer]

You've explained why you disagree with a further vote, but you haven't put forward a semantic argument as to how any referendum can be undemocratic or how democracy simply ended in June 2016.
I reciprocate your good wishes for a nice evening, and am happy to "agree to disagree".

Thank you. Now you have put the question in a way that is clear to understand.

The first vote is still yet to be delivered.

So the position you can take is -

"its undemocratic to say that we can't vote to remain now"

or

"it's undemocratic to stop something that has democratically been decided but not yet delivered".

I understand that people will argue their view is the right one depending on their position but I feel quite comfortable with the position and my view point as being one that is coherent and logical to the point that I am happy to allow democracy help decide how the first democratic vote should be delivered.

Enjoy your evening.

[Stockbrokerbelt]

I’m sure the vote tonight was followed closely by the homeless, food bank users, those waiting for a bed in the NHS, the kids in poverty to name a few, these are due to policies from a party who have chose that for the many. Does it suprise you that everything they touch turns to shite.

[Taffy on the wing]

Like every General election then?????????

Your arguments are ridiculous......and not based on facts!.... Daily Mail reader perhaps?

[JohnMcGreal]

We had a general election in May 2015. The conservative party won enough seats to form a majority government. They then decided to offer the public another general election in June 2017.

So just 25 months after the British public voted for a government, they were allowed to have another say on the matter. As it turned out, the public mood had changed during that time and the conservative party lost their majority.

Now I don't remember many of the people who are against a second referendum now complaining that the will of the people was being ignored or disrespected back in June 2017.

If the public can have another say just 25 months after a general election, why can't they have another say 31 months after a (flawed) referendum?

If you think it's undemocratic to have a second referendum now, you must have thought it was undemocratic to have a general election in 2017.

If you think a second referendum disrespects the will of the people of 2016, then you must have thought the general election of 2017 disrespected the will of the people of 2015.

But that wasn't the case. There were no howls of betrayal when we had a general election in 2017. People accepted that the public mood had shifted, and the democratic result reflected that.

It's time to go back to the public. Not only is it the right and democratic thing to do, it's also the only way out of this mess.

[FactualFrank]

What I find difficult is all the assumptions people pontificate.

"People have changed their mind" -- really? How do you know. Please, you're not qouting a minimalist poll are you.

" A no deal will be disastrous" . So, that's a fact then.

"You didn't know what you were voting for" . Thanks for knowing my mind more than I do.

"People have a firm idea about what they're voting for this time so we should vote again". Really?. I was clearer about it first time round. Now it's more confusing than before and I'm even more distrustful about what I hear.

Apparently democracy means continual referendums about whether we want to remain or leave.

Well that's the interpretation I get from the likes of Lancaster claret. Assuming of course he doesn't mean democracy ends when he gets the result he wants. He surely means as events change people have a continual right to vote again on the issue ... Ad-infinitum.

Read the news. There's been many polls and they have all come back as people now wanting to remain.

I'm on the fence. And I know how clear it is. It relies on common sense. The thing is, most people do not have common sense. And that is why they still question things like this.

[Lancasterclaret]

Lots of people who voted leave attacking me for stating reality.

Got news for you boys, I've been telling you reality for about two years now and guess what, you lot are still refusing to accept it.

Still no response to the question of how we go about getting out of this mess, but lots of attacks about democracy not being fluid and a 2nd democratic vote being....*checks notes* Really? *check notes again* "undemocratic"

And again, that is my last resort option. I am not in favour of it. I want a deal. I want anything that isn't a "No Deal" Brexit but also represents good value for the UK.

[Down_Rover]

So Churchill was voted in by the public, they changed their mind and voted him out prior to his appointment as PM in 1940?

Did you not understand the question or just changing history?

No Churchill was never elected

[Burnley Ace]

She’s lost a parliament vote by a record amount. Has a government that has the most horrendous policies since and including Thatcher’s disaster. She’s split the nation over a policy that hardly anyone cared about previously.

Yet Corbyn is a cockwomble.

I know, you couldn’t make it up. His speech tonight was appalling, it was pathetic, it was almost childlike in its ineptitude. How can the Tories be 6 points ahead???

[Darthlaw]

Still no response to the question of how we go about getting out of this mess, but lots of attacks about democracy not being fluid and a 2nd democratic vote being....*checks notes* Really? *check notes again* "undemocratic"

And yet still no example from you of a democratic decision being reversed PRIOR to its implementation.

I've been telling you reality for about two years now and guess what, you lot are still refusing to accept it.

Irony.

[aggi]

Amounts to the same thing doesn't it?
To extend we simply revoke on March 29th and - if / when we choose to do so - re-invoke at any time of our own choosing. That extends it without EU involvement.

There's a belief, although I haven't seen this definitively either way, that if we did this (i.e. didn't revoke in good faith) then it wouldn't reset the clock and when Article 50 was invoked the second time you would only get the time remaining from when it was first revoked (so a month or two).

[Burnley Ace]

WTF is Sadie Khan talking about - you can only withdraw Article 50 if it’s unequivocal, not just to get more time!!! He hasn’t read the judgement, he’s a disgrace!

[Damo]

Remainers seem to have forced the no deal Brexit they have always been so feverishly against.

Good on them

[ClaretAL]

Which is why leavers don't want it. They know they will lose. I know that, they know what, you know that.

We all know that.

Or more to the point a record turnout voted, because they were told "its about what you want" but obviously not because the result was not liked. so now in a referendum, a vote will be seen as a general election type vote and no where near the turn out, because people will think no matter what we vote it will be the outcome of the establishment so back to the usual turnout.

[clarethomer]

Lots of people who voted leave attacking me for stating reality.

Got news for you boys, I've been telling you reality for about two years now and guess what, you lot are still refusing to accept it.

Still no response to the question of how we go about getting out of this mess, but lots of attacks about democracy not being fluid and a 2nd democratic vote being....*checks notes* Really? *check notes again* "undemocratic"

And again, that is my last resort option. I am not in favour of it. I want a deal. I want anything that isn't a "No Deal" Brexit but also represents good value for the UK.

How about you start with some humility and acknowledgement that your reality isn't the reality for everyone.

Ive told you how I would like to see us move forward from here. 2nd vote - we know the deal (we ain't getting another one) or we go without the deal.

Nothing more complicated about it. However if that challenges your reality as you know it - I respect that but no need to keep harping on how your view is the right one and anyone who disagrees is clueless.

[Blackrod]

Old people believe any old junk.

Both them and the students have every right to vote, and its ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

Not seen anyone suggesting they don't have the right but then again I've not read the entire thread. Whilst I don't class myself as 'old' this is ageist. Many cultures believe you become wiser with age and therefore an older person wouldn't believe 'any old junk'. Clearly you are not from one of these cultures. By contrast younger people can be quite impressionable.

[Lancasterclaret]

Doubt that immensely Damo

But you never know I guess

Darth, I like you, I like your posts but on Brexit you are as wrong as Ringo was.

[Greenmile]

Not seen anyone suggesting they don't have the right but then again I've not read the entire thread. Whilst I don't class myself as 'old' this is ageist. Many cultures believe you become wiser with age and therefore an older person wouldn't believe 'any old junk'. Clearly you are not from one of these cultures. By contrast younger people can be quite impressionable.

Whilst I don’t class myself as “young”, this is ageist.

The people who have 'come of age' have little experience of different governments and the effect of European involvement versus otherwise. Similarly students often adopt radical views until a more experience and rounded judgement results in more balanced views.

...and so is this.

[Greenmile]

Remainers seem to have forced the no deal Brexit they have always been so feverishly against.

Good on them

Not going to happen. Our parliamentary sovereignty wouldn’t allow for it.

[dpinsussex]

Can someone tell me exactly what is Labour's stance towards finding a solution.

All I hear is we will consider everything.

Bloody brilliant leadership is that by the cockwomble.

[nil_desperandum]

WTF is Sadie Khan talking about - you can only withdraw Article 50 if it’s unequivocal, not just to get more time!!! He hasn’t read the judgement, he’s a disgrace!

As a sovereign state we can unilaterally withdraw article 50 and re-invoke it at any future point, though presumably only after we have got everything lined-up and in order, unlike the first time, which was sheer stupidity from a naive PM keen to appease extremists in her own party.

[Blackrod]

Liberals are always tolerant of others opinions as long as they agree with them.

[Darthlaw]

Doubt that immensely Damo

But you never know I guess

Darth, I like you, I like your posts but on Brexit you are as wrong as Ringo was.

Likewise.

In a discussion here though, I’ve asked for an example (not necessarily from you) of a democratic decision be reneged prior to its enactment, thanks to a ‘change of mind’ second decision.

This is what annoys me with the whole ‘you can vote to change your government every x years, when you change your mind’ argument... They at least get into power before they are voted out.

Should Brexit fail, it sets a dangerous precedent for our government to ignore the will of their people, until a second ‘are you sure’ vote can be taken.

[Lancasterclaret]

Think we have to revoke, but I can't see how we can do that without a referendum, which we don't have time for.

Extension with EU approval would only be granted in the event of an election or another referendum.

Again, give me a way out of this without any of the above.

[Espia]

Read the news. There's been many polls and they have all come back as people now wanting to remain.

I'm on the fence. And I know how clear it is. It relies on common sense. The thing is, most people do not have common sense. And that is why they still question things like this.

See, there you go again. Minimalist polls of a few hundred, maybe a few thousand, are assumed to be an accurate reflection on the views of tens of millions who voted last time. It's not.

The referendum was not where democracy ended. It cannot be compared to other votes such as general elections. It was a singular issue. Do you want to leave the EU? The answer was YES.

You cannot rewrite history. I'm afraid the question was not "do you want to leave the EU and then have another vote 2 years from now to see if you really do want to leave". If it was then I would have no problem with that. And in many ways it would have been the sensible thing to have asked. In fact there should perhaps have never been a referendum in the first place. I can accept that argument more than I can for having a second referendum.

[nil_desperandum]

Can someone tell me exactly what is Labour's stance towards finding a solution.

All I hear is we will consider everything.

Bloody brilliant leadership is that by the cockwomble.

I'm no fan of Corbyn or his personal stance on brexit, but the Labour Party position on a Customs Union and some close alignment with the Single Market is pretty clear; and some form of deal that included those would both solve the "Irish" question and almost certainly be accepted by the EU and secure a majority in Parliament.

[Lancasterclaret]

Okay, Ireland, France and Denmark with the EU.

All three changed their minds in the next one.

The various treaties (Lisbon and Maastricht) were changed slightly before the 2nd vote.

That may well work here, but I'm not sure what changes we can make that work for both us and the EU.

[Damo]

Not going to happen. Our parliamentary sovereignty wouldn’t allow for it.

You have lots of faith in parliamentary sovereignty.

Personally, 3/1 at the bookmakers looks like a tasty bet to me

[Lancasterclaret]

Any of you Brexiteers accept that we might need to extend Article 50, or are you happy with a "No Deal"?

Again, I'm going to need some concrete info why a "No Deal" works for the UK btw

[Lancasterclaret]

Is that 3/1 for a "No Deal" Damo?

if so thats probably worth at least a couple of euros bet

[Damo]

I'm no fan of Corbyn

You can stop telling us that now pal. We get it

[Lancasterclaret]

Is anyone on here a fan of Corbyn (apart from AndrewJB!)?

[Damo]

Is that 3/1 for a "No Deal" Damo?

if so thats probably worth at least a couple of euros bet

That's to leave th EU without a deal by April fools day, with coral

[nil_desperandum]

You can stop telling us that now pal. We get it

It's quite important to recognise though that whilst there is a significant proportion of the population who are broadly supportive of many of Labour's current ideas, we totally despair at the ineptitude of Corbyn in seeking to deliver them, despite the total shambles that May is "leading".

[Lancasterclaret]

52 - 48: THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN
432 - 202: Have another crack in a few days

[FactualFrank]

See, there you go again. Minimalist polls of a few hundred, maybe a few thousand, are assumed to be an accurate reflection on the views of tens of millions who voted last time. It's not.

The referendum was not where democracy ended. It cannot be compared to other votes such as general elections. It was a singular issue. Do you want to leave the EU? The answer was YES.

You cannot rewrite history. I'm afraid the question was not "do you want to leave the EU and then have another vote 2 years from now to see if you really do want to leave". If it was then I would have no problem with that. And in many ways it would have been the sensible thing to have asked. In fact there should perhaps have never been a referendum in the first place. I can accept that argument more than I can for having a second referendum.

Don't answer for me. You degrade yourself when you think you can vote for people. You can't. So don't do it. You're actually arguing with someone who (as said) is on the fence. And why would anybody rewrite history? It's like a blank cheque where politics is concerned. There is nothing to cash. They all come out with the same crap. Corbyn is against May - HE IS NOT against her decision. He wants the same thing as her - but what else can he do, other than use that to gain power? By that I mean both May and Corbyn want to remain. We can all see it.

[Burnley Ace]

As a sovereign state we can unilaterally withdraw article 50 and re-invoke it at any future point, though presumably only after we have got everything lined-up and in order, unlike the first time, which was sheer stupidity from a naive PM keen to appease extremists in her own party.

No we can’t, you haven’t read the judgment and the bit about a withdrawal being unequivocal.