#politicslive

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
Post Reply
nil_desperandum
Posts: 7301
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Been Liked: 1823 times
Has Liked: 3948 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by nil_desperandum » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:52 pm

aggi wrote:Agreed, it won't tie us in perpetuity but we can't use it tactically to gain negotiation time as many are suggesting. You have to show intent that you want to remain to revoke.
Yes, but again, (theoretically) if we said we want to revoke they'd happily accept, and under Lisbon there'd be "sod all" they could do if we then walked out in say 24 months time.

PutTheWheelieBinsOut
Posts: 499
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:35 pm
Been Liked: 194 times
Has Liked: 16 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by PutTheWheelieBinsOut » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:55 pm

Image

I just wonder how many of those calling for a second referendum would be in favour of a third referendum in 3 years time on the same issue?

If we had one this year how would we know what Remain means for the future of the country and the entire basis for calling a second referendum was that the Leave voters didn't know what Leave actually means. Are we today any closer to knowing what Leave means?? No hard facts just opinions like 3 years ago.

When will the Remain campaign pay the tax payer back the 9 million pounds it cost for their leaflet containing lies?

Theres only one referendum we need and thats to vote on whether we keep this failing government and failing bunch of MP's in office and that vote should be in a general election.
These 2 users liked this post: hampsteadclaret DomBFC1882

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by aggi » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:59 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Yes, but again, (theoretically) if we said we want to revoke they'd happily accept, and under Lisbon there'd be "sod all" they could do if we then walked out in say 24 months time.
Agreed, it's theoretically possible but you'd be looking at something like a referendum saying we wanted to stay followed by a referendum 24 months later saying we were leaving.
This user liked this post: nil_desperandum

Taffy on the wing
Posts: 4600
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:41 am
Been Liked: 1020 times
Has Liked: 3163 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Taffy on the wing » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:15 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Is anyone on here a fan of Corbyn (apart from AndrewJB!)?
I am for one! Invest in people, infrastructure, the NHS and education.....Tax corporations and close loopholes for the rich!
These 2 users liked this post: longsidepies Lord Beamish

Taffy on the wing
Posts: 4600
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:41 am
Been Liked: 1020 times
Has Liked: 3163 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Taffy on the wing » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:18 am

nil_desperandum wrote:It's quite important to recognise though that whilst there is a significant proportion of the population who are broadly supportive of many of Labour's current ideas, we totally despair at the ineptitude of Corbyn in seeking to deliver them, despite the total shambles that May is "leading".
Where is he inept? ....apart from the right wing media? FFS... you'd prefer this heartless bunch of Cnuts?
MIND BOGGLING!
This user liked this post: longsidepies

Darthlaw
Posts: 3060
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:08 pm
Been Liked: 1177 times
Has Liked: 414 times
Location: Death Star, Dark Side Row S Seat 666

Re: #politicslive

Post by Darthlaw » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:31 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Okay, Ireland, France and Denmark with the EU.

All three changed their minds in the next one.

The various treaties (Lisbon and Maastricht) were changed slightly before the 2nd vote.

That may well work here, but I'm not sure what changes we can make that work for both us and the EU.
In Ireland and France’s case the public voted against the Lisbon treaty. Their decision was enacted (rejected), renegotiated then asked again whereby each country had a second referendum to sign new terms. The Danes have rejected many actions in referendums, hence the public decision enacted.

In Iceland’s case, a referendum was never held to join the EU (despite it being promised), merely their 2009 coalition government saw joining the EU as an act to remedy their financial crisis. In 2013, they changed their government to one who opposed EU membership, hence their application stopped. Importantly, a referendum has never been held by Iceland.

So, again, does anyone have an example of where a democratic decision has been taken by the public and overturned, prior to its enactment, by a second referendum?

Greenmile
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:50 pm
Been Liked: 1081 times
Has Liked: 4241 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Greenmile » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:01 am

dsr wrote:...In the UK and any other democracy, ultimate sovereignty rests with the people...
No it doesn’t. Never has done.
These 2 users liked this post: Burnley Ace nil_desperandum

Claret-On-A-T-Rex
Been Liked: 1 time
Has Liked: 826 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:04 am

PutTheWheelieBinsOut wrote:Image

I just wonder how many of those calling for a second referendum would be in favour of a third referendum in 3 years time on the same issue?

If we had one this year how would we know what Remain means for the future of the country and the entire basis for calling a second referendum was that the Leave voters didn't know what Leave actually means. Are we today any closer to knowing what Leave means?? No hard facts just opinions like 3 years ago.

When will the Remain campaign pay the tax payer back the 9 million pounds it cost for their leaflet containing lies?

Theres only one referendum we need and thats to vote on whether we keep this failing government and failing bunch of MP's in office and that vote should be in a general election.
Me, if leave wins a second referendum we should have a third, then a fourth and forever on and on until remain wins.
It's like asking a child what two and two is.

"What's two plus two?"

"Three."

"Nope, try again. What's two plus two?"

"Five."

"Close but no, try again. What's two plus two?"

"Six."

"Nope, try again. What's two plus two?"

"Seven."

"Nope, try again. What's two plus two?"

"Errrr four?"

"Yes, well done. Have a sweetie dumb4ss."

fatboy47
Posts: 4179
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:58 am
Been Liked: 2316 times
Has Liked: 2692 times
Location: Isles of Scilly

Re: #politicslive

Post by fatboy47 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:13 am

Election needed....this shower needs to go...they have utterly screwed this country in an attempt to resolve their internal squabbles.

Clearly they're petrified that Labour may do something to benefit ordinary people, otherwise they'd have bailed by now.
These 3 users liked this post: Claret-On-A-T-Rex Lord Beamish Taffy on the wing

Greenmile
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:50 pm
Been Liked: 1081 times
Has Liked: 4241 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Greenmile » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:20 am

PutTheWheelieBinsOut wrote:When will the Remain campaign pay the tax payer back the 9 million pounds it cost for their leaflet containing lies?.
That leaflet was produced by the govt. If you expect them to reimburse the taxpayer every time they lie (or are mistaken), you can’t have been living in this country - or on this planet - for very long, or maybe you just haven’t been paying attention.
This user liked this post: Claret-On-A-T-Rex

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: #politicslive

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:00 am

How was the decision enacted Darth?

In both cases a 2nd referendum was held on the treaty with minor changes.

If it helps get people behind a 2nd ref, we can change it slightly to something like "remain like we do now, but with the Euro" :-)

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: #politicslive

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:07 am

We have to remember here the priority is a deal.

Nothing anyone says on here about a "No Deal" being fine (even Crosspool and DSR whose views are not based on zero knowledge, unlike sadly too many) is convincing enough people that it won't be a disaster.

Quick look at the news this morning suggests that the PM in particular and the ERG in general are ignoring reality and trying to float deals that have the dubious distinction of being both unpalatable to both parliament and the EU.

Clock is ticking, and its looking increasing like Parliament will take control of the process to try to come to a consensus, whatever that may be.

NottsClaret
Posts: 3577
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:05 am
Been Liked: 2590 times
Has Liked: 1 time

Re: #politicslive

Post by NottsClaret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:09 am

PutTheWheelieBinsOut wrote:When will the Remain campaign pay the tax payer back the 9 million pounds it cost for their leaflet containing lies?
If we're going to start reimbursing tax payers for lies told before the referendum then we're all in for such a windfall I couldn't give a s**t what happens with Brexit.

Claret-On-A-T-Rex
Been Liked: 1 time
Has Liked: 826 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:13 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Clock is ticking, and its looking increasing like Parliament will take control of the process to try to come to a consensus, whatever that may be.
No confidence motion > Theresa May wins (no general election) > Labour changes tactic and joins push for second referendum > Theresa May presents new brexit deal/Plan B > Amended by MP's to include provision for the second referendum > Second referendum motion passed by Labour, SNP, etc and Tory rebels who also want a second vote > Article 50 extended to allow for second referendum > Second referendum > Remain wins > UK stays in Europe.

I believe the favoured term is "simples".

nil_desperandum
Posts: 7301
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Been Liked: 1823 times
Has Liked: 3948 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by nil_desperandum » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:13 am

Taffy on the wing wrote:Where is he inept? ....apart from the right wing media? FFS... you'd prefer this heartless bunch of Cnuts?
MIND BOGGLING!
Corbyn inept?
Have you ever seen his performances at PMQs and in TV interviews.
He's been presented with open goals nearly every week in the past 12 months and has been way off target every time. His debating skills are way below what are expected, and although Labour Party policy is often clear he frequently muddles it up. He is indecisive and often procrastinates where clear and direct action is the simplest and best course. (The still continuing row over anti-semiticsm and his lack of leadership over the EU issue being but two examples)
And no I don't prefer the other lot, it's just that I have to ask why it is that the party he leads has been slipping further behind in the polls. despite the shambles.
Why do you think Labour aren't way ahead? Is it because Corbyn is a good, inspiring leader but everything else in the party is wrong?

Darthlaw
Posts: 3060
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:08 pm
Been Liked: 1177 times
Has Liked: 414 times
Location: Death Star, Dark Side Row S Seat 666

Re: #politicslive

Post by Darthlaw » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:28 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:How was the decision enacted Darth?
To Use Irelands example:

Irish Government : We'd like to adopt the Lisbon treaty

Irish Public: Vote held - Outcome: No, we don't like it. Reject it please.

Irish government: OK, we'll reject it (Decision enacted)

(EU Changes terms.)

Irish Government : The EU has changed the treaty, will you sign it now?

Irish people: Now they've changed it, that's fine.

Irish Government: OK, we'll adopt it now (Decision enacted)

In our case:
UK Government: Do you want to leave the EU

UK Public: Vote held - Outcome: Yes.

(Two years of shitshow)

UK Government: Unfortunately those who didn't like the first decision have taken our negotiating power and are helping the EU. Can we ask if you want to leave again?

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: #politicslive

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:32 am

Okay

So Ireland isn't a signature of the Treaties then?

Darthlaw
Posts: 3060
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:08 pm
Been Liked: 1177 times
Has Liked: 414 times
Location: Death Star, Dark Side Row S Seat 666

Re: #politicslive

Post by Darthlaw » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:42 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Okay

So Ireland isn't a signature of the Treaties then?
Yes, because the Irish government enacted the will of the public when they voted for it with amendments in 2009. Did the Irish government ignore their 2008 referendum and sign them up anyway? No, they enacted the will of their public and rejected it.

Has the UK left the EU, as per the result of the 2016 general election?

Claret-On-A-T-Rex
Been Liked: 1 time
Has Liked: 826 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:47 am

Darthlaw wrote:Yes, because the Irish government enacted the will of the public when they voted for it with amendments in 2009. Did the Irish government ignore their 2008 referendum and sign them up anyway? No, they enacted the will of their public and rejected it.

Has the UK left the EU, as per the result of the 2016 general election?
Don't be daft, as if we were ever going to leave the EU because of a ridiculous, manipulated and misinformed referendum :)

Lord Rothbury
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:44 am
Been Liked: 133 times
Has Liked: 68 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Lord Rothbury » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:48 am

[quote="Claret-On-A-T-Rex"]No confidence motion > Theresa May wins (no general election) > Labour changes tactic and joins push for second referendum > Theresa May presents new brexit deal/Plan B > Amended by MP's to include provision for the second referendum > Second referendum motion passed by Labour, SN returns as leaderP, etc and Tory rebels who also want a second vote > Article 50 extended to allow for second referendum > Second referendum > Remain wins > UK stays in Europe.

I believe the favoured term is "simples"
You missed out a section.

Farage returns as leader of UKIP,17 MILL people vote for them and they head up a government.


What is the phrase ."Simples"

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by martin_p » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:49 am

Darthlaw wrote:To Use Irelands example:

Irish Government : We'd like to adopt the Lisbon treaty

Irish Public: Vote held - Outcome: No, we don't like it. Reject it please.

Irish government: OK, we'll reject it (Decision enacted)

(EU Changes terms.)

Irish Government : The EU has changed the treaty, will you sign it now?

Irish people: Now they've changed it, that's fine.

Irish Government: OK, we'll adopt it now (Decision enacted)

In our case:
UK Government: Do you want to leave the EU

UK Public: Vote held - Outcome: Yes.

(Two years of shitshow)

UK Government: Unfortunately those who didn't like the first decision have taken our negotiating power and are helping the EU. Can we ask if you want to leave again?
But the status quo is always enacted when it’s voted for because it is the status quo. So in the examples you quote, Ireland chose not to ratify the Lisbon Treaty (and it may seem a semantic point, but that’s what they voted to do rather than reject it). So as a result of that vote the Irish government just had to do nothing as ‘not ratifying the Lisbon Treaty’ was the position they were already in. In the same way if we’d voted to stay in the EU that decision wouldn’t need ‘enacting’ as it’s the position we were already in. Surely you see that when a referendum actually backs change it’s much more important to examine the consequences before enacting the decision as once the change is made it’s very difficult (if not impossible) to reverse that change if it turns out to be a bad idea.
This user liked this post: AndrewJB

Chobulous
Posts: 2132
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:27 am
Been Liked: 955 times
Has Liked: 11 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Chobulous » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:49 am

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:No confidence motion > Theresa May wins (no general election) > Labour changes tactic and joins push for second referendum > Theresa May presents new brexit deal/Plan B > Amended by MP's to include provision for the second referendum > Second referendum motion passed by Labour, SNP, etc and Tory rebels who also want a second vote > Article 50 extended to allow for second referendum > Second referendum > Remain wins > UK stays in Europe.

I believe the favoured term is "simples".
Unfortunately there is a fatal flaw in your logic. Guess what it is.

Claret-On-A-T-Rex
Been Liked: 1 time
Has Liked: 826 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:49 am

Lord Rothbury wrote:Farage returns as leader of UKIP,17 MILL people vote for them and they head up a government.


What is the phrase ."Simples"
No, the phrase for that is "bullsh*t".
Last edited by Claret-On-A-T-Rex on Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: #politicslive

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:50 am

Not yet Darth. Looking increasingly likely like we won't (which would be 100% the politicians fault)

The issue is that we need a deal and as I've already said I want a deal but my argument is that if we can't get one then a 2nd ref is the only remaining democratic solution.

And that is because no one voted for a "No Deal" in 2016. They voted to leave on a deal which was promised to be as good as it is now (better in the case of those with absolutely no shame!). Otherwise they would never have won.

If that isn't happening (and it certainly isn't going to be better, its going to be a lot worse) then you have to look at ALL democratic solutions.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: #politicslive

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:52 am

Lord Rothbury is starting on the meths, the sherry AND the PCP slightly early this morning!
These 2 users liked this post: Claret-On-A-T-Rex Lord Beamish

Claret-On-A-T-Rex
Been Liked: 1 time
Has Liked: 826 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:58 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Lord Rothbury is starting on the meths, the sherry AND the PCP slightly early this morning!
I like how he thinks all the people who voted in the first referendum, including all those who voted remain are going to vote for Nigel Farage :)

1994 by-election Eastleigh UKIP 952 1.7 Not elected
1997 general election Salisbury UKIP 3,332 5.7 Not elected
2001 general election Bexhill and Battle UKIP 3,474 7.8 Not elected
2005 general election South Thanet UKIP 2,079 5.0 Not elected
2006 by-election Bromley and Chislehurst UKIP 2,347 8.1 Not elected
2010 general election Buckingham UKIP 8,410 17.4 Not elected
2015 general election South Thanet UKIP 16,026 32.4 Not elected

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: #politicslive

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:59 am

Don't forget that he got beaten by a bloke dressed as a dolphin as well.

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12345
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5202 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:59 am

nil_desperandum wrote:, it's just that I have to ask why it is that the party he leads has been slipping further behind in the polls. despite the shambles.
Why do you think Labour aren't way ahead? Is it because Corbyn is a good, inspiring leader but everything else in the party is wrong?
I think Labour aren't way ahead because ultimately we are a centre right country with a mainstream media with a right wing bias. Add to that that a lot of old core labour voters now seem more concerned with pitching the poor against the poor and focusing on the divisions in people rather than coming together and fighting the rich and elite.

Corbyn does not appear to me to be compromising his beliefs and those of the party members just to shift more towards the centre to capture votes. I am not a staunch Labour fan and believe there needs both the right and the left voice at he heart of government with a close dialogue but I admire Corbyn for his stance and I think the direction this country has been taking under Conservatives and with the whole Brexit fiasco I think a parliamentary term of Corbyns politics will serve the country well.

I don't think a Corbyn Labour could last long but it might put the people at the bottom and most vulnerable back on the agenda and force both the next labour party and tories to fight over centre ground which is where politics should be

Amazes me in the world of Brexit where we see sound bites, media lies and people just playing up to the camera that we criticise Corby for not playing this game and letting his politics do the talking.
This user liked this post: Lord Beamish

Lord Beamish
Posts: 5001
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:00 pm
Been Liked: 3435 times
Has Liked: 2881 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Lord Beamish » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:02 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:I think Labour aren't way ahead because ultimately we are a centre right country with a mainstream media with a right wing bias. Add to that that a lot of old core labour voters now seem more concerned with pitching the poor against the poor and focusing on the divisions in people rather than coming together and fighting the rich and elite.

Corbyn does not appear to me to be compromising his beliefs and those of the party members just to shift more towards the centre to capture votes. I am not a staunch Labour fan and believe there needs both the right and the left voice at he heart of government with a close dialogue but I admire Corbyn for his stance and I think the direction this country has been taking under Conservatives and with the whole Brexit fiasco I think a parliamentary term of Corbyns politics will serve the country well.

I don't think a Corbyn Labour could last long but it might put the people at the bottom and most vulnerable back on the agenda and force both the next labour party and tories to fight over centre ground which is where politics should be

Amazes me in the world of Brexit where we see sound bites, media lies and people just playing up to the camera that we criticise Corby for not playing this game and letting his politics do the talking.
Boom!

NottsClaret
Posts: 3577
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:05 am
Been Liked: 2590 times
Has Liked: 1 time

Re: #politicslive

Post by NottsClaret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:04 am

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:I like how he thinks all the people who voted in the first referendum, including all those who voted remain are going to vote for Nigel Farage :)
Quite. He's lost 7/7 by-elections and 5/5 European Parliament elections.

The only thing he's won is leader of UKIP, if that's still a thing? He's the modern Monster Raving Looney candidate, but with way more airtime.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: #politicslive

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:08 am

Good post DA, but he has promised a members run Labour party (a good thing in theory, but as a Lib Dem voter whose party does the same thing it does tend to mean some stuff that doesn't help you get elected stays around) and that members run manifesto says "Vote of No confidence" followed by a drive for a "Peoples vote".

Thats not what Corbynistas were saying last night (again)

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by aggi » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:09 am

Lord Rothbury wrote: You missed out a section.

Farage returns as leader of UKIP,17 MILL people vote for them and they head up a government.


What is the phrase ."Simples"
It's at times like these I like to mention that Farage achieved fewer votes in a general election than this dolphin

Image

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: #politicslive

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:11 am

I just don't get the porpoise of that picture

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by martin_p » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:12 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I just don't get the porpoise of that picture
Think it's just dolphin click bait.

Chobulous
Posts: 2132
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:27 am
Been Liked: 955 times
Has Liked: 11 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Chobulous » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:13 am

NottsClaret wrote:Quite. He's lost 7/7 by-elections and 5/5 European Parliament elections.

The only thing he's won is leader of UKIP, if that's still a thing? He's the modern Monster Raving Looney candidate, but with way more airtime.
Not a fan of Farage by any stretch but I was under the impression that he has won 4 European Parliament Elections. 1999, 2004, 2009, 2014. I suggest you do a bit of basic research.

nil_desperandum
Posts: 7301
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Been Liked: 1823 times
Has Liked: 3948 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by nil_desperandum » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:13 am

Yes, I agree with the main thrust of DA's post, but it doesn't address the issue of Corbyn's very poor personal performances, and the fact that he doesn't give the impression of having a level of understanding or competency to actually do the job.

Darthlaw
Posts: 3060
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:08 pm
Been Liked: 1177 times
Has Liked: 414 times
Location: Death Star, Dark Side Row S Seat 666

Re: #politicslive

Post by Darthlaw » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:13 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Not yet Darth. Looking increasingly likely like we won't (which would be 100% the politicians fault)
Not quite 100% but not far off. Holier than thou knobheads, such as those marching on London, calling for the decision to be revoked from day one have played their part. Claret on a T-Rex being a whopping example.
Lancasterclaret wrote:The issue is that we need a deal and as I've already said I want a deal but my argument is that if we can't get one then a 2nd ref is the only remaining democratic solution.
Agreed. The only thing for me is that all options on the vote should surround the manner of our exit. The decision to leave has been made, happily I'll entertain a public vote about how we leave.
Lancasterclaret wrote:And that is because no one voted for a "No Deal" in 2016. They voted to leave on a deal which was promised to be as good as it is now. Otherwise they would never have won.
As much as the campaign to vote Leave was based upon fallacies, equally the campaign not to vote Leave should be taken into account. Arguably folk voted leave despite being told by 'experts' that it would damage the economy, collapse the value of GBP overnight, bring on another recession, instigate an emergency budget, food shortages, no travel to EU, WW3, etc.

Rightly or wrongly, they still voted to Leave despite being told all this. In fact the only thing Leavers weren't informed about was the vociferous opposition to the result and the lengths those on the wrong side of the decision would go to, in order to stop it being enacted.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: #politicslive

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:20 am

Not quite 100% but not far off. Holier than thou knobheads, such as those marching on London, calling for the decision to be revoked from day one have played their part. Claret on a T-Rex being a whopping example.
How dare people exercise their democratic rights!
Agreed. The only thing for me is that all options on the vote should surround the manner of our exit. The decision to leave has been made, happily I'll entertain a public vote about how we leave.
Again, a referendum without the option to stay might as well be held with just the 52% voting. And it screams out that you are worried about losing. Surely the strength of the leave argument after two years is a positive here, no?
Rightly or wrongly, they still voted to Leave despite being told all this. In fact the only thing Leavers weren't informed about was the vociferous opposition to the result and the lengths those on the wrong side of the decision would go to, in order to stop it being enacted.
Not true at all. You have of course neglected to mention stuff like "easiest deal in history", "german car makers will be in Berlin demanding to give us a good deal" etc etc etc.

There isn't a good, or more crucially, a democratic argument to exclude "Remain" from the ballot paper.

One thing that is for sure, is that this isn't going to go away, or unite the country. So the best solution is to find one that causes the least problems to the country. I know which one that is.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by martin_p » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:24 am

Chobulous wrote:Not a fan of Farage by any stretch but I was under the impression that he has won 4 European Parliament Elections. 1999, 2004, 2009, 2014. I suggest you do a bit of basic research.
That's a result of the European elections in the UK changing from traditional firts past the post to PR in 1999. In 1999, 2004 an 2009 he polled less votes that at elast one other party but got a seat based on PR. In 2014 UKIP polled more votes both regionally (somewhere in the south is where Farage was a candidate) and nationally than any other party, so it's hard to argue he didn't win that election.

Chobulous
Posts: 2132
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:27 am
Been Liked: 955 times
Has Liked: 11 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Chobulous » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:27 am

martin_p wrote:That's a result of the European elections in the UK changing from traditional firts past the post to PR in 1999. In 1999, 2004 an 2009 he polled less votes that at elast one other party but got a seat based on PR. In 2014 UKIP polled more votes both regionally (somewhere in the south is where Farage was a candidate) and nationally than any other party, so it's hard to argue he didn't win that election.
Whatever the system was he elected in those elections or not?

NottsClaret
Posts: 3577
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:05 am
Been Liked: 2590 times
Has Liked: 1 time

Re: #politicslive

Post by NottsClaret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:29 am

Chobulous wrote:Not a fan of Farage by any stretch but I was under the impression that he has won 4 European Parliament Elections. 1999, 2004, 2009, 2014. I suggest you do a bit of basic research.
You're right you know, fair point.

I've had it drummed into me so much that we're ruled by unelected politicians in Europe I'd actually started believing they were unelected. I don't know what to think now.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by martin_p » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:29 am

This is why Brexit is doomed under May’s leadership.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ?CMP=fb_gu

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: #politicslive

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:31 am

Farage is by far the most popular UKIP person out there.

He's a god to 10% of the country, and because of that (and the lure of getting that 10% to vote for them) has a disproportionate effect on both Lab (amazingly) and Conservative policy.

He's a prick, a demagogue of the worst kind and I've no time for him at all but in a situation like this, he's got more clout than most.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by martin_p » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:31 am

Chobulous wrote:Whatever the system was he elected in those elections or not?
Yes he was elected, but your statement that he’d ‘won’ four European elections is misleading.

Mala591
Posts: 1887
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:02 pm
Been Liked: 681 times
Has Liked: 428 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Mala591 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:31 am

The four leave options now appear to be:

1. May's option
2. A Norway style option
3. A Canada style option
4. A no deal option

Our MPs must now decide which option they will support (secret ballot) and then that should become the basis of our future negotiating strategy.

Lord Rothbury
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:44 am
Been Liked: 133 times
Has Liked: 68 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Lord Rothbury » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:34 am

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:I like how he thinks all the people who voted in the first referendum, including all those who voted remain are going to vote for Nigel Farage :)

1994 by-election Eastleigh UKIP 952 1.7 Not elected
1997 general election Salisbury UKIP 3,332 5.7 Not elected
2001 general election Bexhill and Battle UKIP 3,474 7.8 Not elected
2005 general election South Thanet UKIP 2,079 5.0 Not elected
2006 by-election Bromley and Chislehurst UKIP 2,347 8.1 Not elected
2010 general election Buckingham UKIP 8,410 17.4 Not elected
2015 general election South Thanet UKIP 16,026 32.4 Not elected
That seems to be positive trend in increased votes.16,000 32.4 % at South Thanet is impressive.

Farage stands in Burnley it would be a landslide.

Chobulous
Posts: 2132
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:27 am
Been Liked: 955 times
Has Liked: 11 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Chobulous » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:35 am

martin_p wrote:Yes he was elected, but your statement that he’d ‘won’ four European elections is misleading.
No it isn't misleading, he won through in the electoral system in place at the time. He certainly didn't lose in any of those elections did he and even more certain is the fact that he didn't lose 5 out of 5 European Parliament elections. As I said I have no regard for Farage nor his politics but if someone is going to deride another person using statistics, the least you can expect is that those statistics are even remotely correct.

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by aggi » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:37 am

Darthlaw wrote: Holier than thou knobheads, such as those marching on London, calling for the decision to be revoked from day one have played their part.
How?

Darthlaw
Posts: 3060
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:08 pm
Been Liked: 1177 times
Has Liked: 414 times
Location: Death Star, Dark Side Row S Seat 666

Re: #politicslive

Post by Darthlaw » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:38 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Again, a referendum without the option to stay might as well be held with just the 52% voting.
There isn't a good, or more crucially, a democratic argument to exclude "Remain" from the ballot paper.
The decision to leave has been made in 2016. Arguing to re-run the referendum screams that you are not willing to respect the decision or, as is more likely, the UK public need another chance to 'get it right'.
Lancasterclaret wrote:Not true at all. You have of course neglected to mention stuff like "easiest deal in history", "german car makers will be in Berlin demanding to give us a good deal" etc etc etc.
Two sides of the same coin.
Lancasterclaret wrote:One thing that is for sure, is that this isn't going to go away, or unite the country. So the best solution is to find one that causes the least problems to the country. I know which one that is.
If you're trying to unite the country, disregarding a decision made by 52% of the last vote doesn't seem the best idea to me.

We're not going to agree so I'm happy to agree to disagree on this. What I would say is that as a relatively moderate leaver and (how I see you) as a relatively moderate remainer, we can at least both see that another referendum is probably the only way the next step can happen, regardless that we disagree about what the options on that referendum should be.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: #politicslive

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:38 am

Farage stands in Burnley it would be a landslide.
How? He'd take votes from the Conservatives mainly leading to a Lab landslide.

Crikey, even the Lib Dems might sneak in again

Post Reply