#politicslive

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
Post Reply
Quickenthetempo
Posts: 17917
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:35 am
Been Liked: 3842 times
Has Liked: 2065 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Quickenthetempo » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:50 pm

martin_p wrote:She’s got to table something by next Monday.
And then what?
A weeks debates and then arrange a vote on it?

I'm just going off the body language of the senior politicians.

If there was a chance of a 2nd referendum the brexiteers would vote her out and get a proper leaver in charge of the party.

Either way. Only 10 weeks to go.

Burnley Ace
Posts: 3525
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:03 pm
Been Liked: 651 times
Has Liked: 2879 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Burnley Ace » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:57 pm

If we are in a CU will we have to keep the same common external tariff rates that the EU set with 3rd countries? Will we have to conform to the stipulations of EU trade deals? Will it limit our ability to sign new trade deals in different terms?

Burnley Ace
Posts: 3525
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:03 pm
Been Liked: 651 times
Has Liked: 2879 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Burnley Ace » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:59 pm

And if we are in a CU will it be governed by the ECJ?

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: #politicslive

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:00 pm

I think the idea is a CU, but not "the" CU.

How that comes about with what limitations isn't clear.

nil_desperandum
Posts: 7301
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Been Liked: 1823 times
Has Liked: 3948 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by nil_desperandum » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:08 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:Looks like May will just run the clock down to the very end and then have another vote between her deal (with maybe a slight change) and no deal. She will bank on other MPs not wanting No deal and romp home.
.
But thankfully it's not just her choice. She likes to behave like a dictator but actually she's paralysed by both wings of her party. Parliament simply won't allow us to collapse into a "no deal" and she will have to move a long way on her red lines and work with other parties if she is going to pull the rabbit out of the hat and get a deal through both Parliament and the EU in just over 2 months.

uni_queue
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 14 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by uni_queue » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:09 pm

It will be a Customs union ++
ie just like the EU customs union but with all the bits that we dont like removed ..............
so we will be able to trade outside it, wont have to allow free movement of people within it and wont be subject to the jurisdiction of the ECj -
Although it is possible that the EU wont necessarily agree to it .

CombatClaret
Posts: 4381
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:09 pm
Been Liked: 1825 times
Has Liked: 929 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by CombatClaret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:10 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:If we are in a CU will we have to keep the same common external tariff rates that the EU set with 3rd countries? Will we have to conform to the stipulations of EU trade deals? Will it limit our ability to sign new trade deals in different terms?
Just want to remind people:

- The IMF see's only 35 countries in the world as advanced economies like our own, of those 27 are in Europe.

- The GDP off all 55 African Countries combined adds up to half the GDP of France!

- 80% of world trades under WTO but 80% of the world is poor! We made luxury products for luxury countries like those in the EU. Farmers in Chad do not need financial services from London or Road Bikes from Preston.

Can't wait for all these deal we can finally make!

CombatClaret
Posts: 4381
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:09 pm
Been Liked: 1825 times
Has Liked: 929 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by CombatClaret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:12 pm

uni_queue wrote:It will be a Customs union ++
ie just like the EU customs union but with all the bits that we dont like removed ..............
so we will be able to trade outside it, wont have to allow free movement of people within it and wont be subject to the jurisdiction of the ECj -
Although it is possible that the EU wont necessarily agree to it .
I doubt they will because that sounds like a deal better than membership. :shock:

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: #politicslive

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:13 pm

I suspect that he's taking the **** somewhat

CombatClaret
Posts: 4381
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:09 pm
Been Liked: 1825 times
Has Liked: 929 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by CombatClaret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:17 pm

Think government should look into a new re-branded trade system which I propose to call the:

Customs.Union.National.Trade.System.
This user liked this post: Rick_Muller

nil_desperandum
Posts: 7301
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Been Liked: 1823 times
Has Liked: 3948 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by nil_desperandum » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:18 pm

uni_queue wrote:It will be a Customs union ++
ie just like the EU customs union but with all the bits that we dont like removed ..............
so we will be able to trade outside it, wont have to allow free movement of people within it and wont be subject to the jurisdiction of the ECj -
Although it is possible that the EU wont necessarily agree to it .
There's absolutely no way the EU will agree to that and particularly the ECJ bit. How could we operate outside the rules? It would potentially give us a competitive edge over the other the remaining 27 members, but in any case there has to be a common framework of rules to protect us as well.
This is the bit about flights that many fail / refuse to take on board. The European protocols, (which are also agreed with the USA), are there for our own safety and security. We can't just fly in and out of airports as we please. There will definitely be a deal on this and many other areas.

uni_queue
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 14 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by uni_queue » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:18 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I suspect that he's taking the **** somewhat
:mrgreen: :mrgreen:

nil_desperandum
Posts: 7301
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Been Liked: 1823 times
Has Liked: 3948 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by nil_desperandum » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:20 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I suspect that he's taking the **** somewhat
Well, I'm afraid he reeled me in ! :lol:
This user liked this post: Lord Beamish

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by aggi » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:36 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:There's absolutely no way the EU will agree to that and particularly the ECJ bit. How could we operate outside the rules? It would potentially give us a competitive edge over the other the remaining 27 members, but in any case there has to be a common framework of rules to protect us as well.
This is the bit about flights that many fail / refuse to take on board. The European protocols, (which are also agreed with the USA), are there for our own safety and security. We can't just fly in and out of airports as we please. There will definitely be a deal on this and many other areas.
It's not actually that far from Norway's deal (except, of course, for the big sticking point of free movement of people).

nil_desperandum
Posts: 7301
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Been Liked: 1823 times
Has Liked: 3948 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by nil_desperandum » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:57 pm

aggi wrote:It's not actually that far from Norway's deal (except, of course, for the big sticking point of free movement of people).
And also it has to follow the judgements of the EFTA Court, which from what I can read is pretty much the same as the ECJ, and so it wouldn't be "taking back power" (whatever that means), since:
(As a rule – but not always – the EFTA Court follows relevant ECJ case law. It has occasionally adjusted its case law to later ECJ jurisprudence (for example in the area of state alcohol monopolies)..

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/08/2 ... t-britain/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Long Time Lurker
Posts: 1313
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:12 pm
Been Liked: 603 times
Has Liked: 420 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Long Time Lurker » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:00 pm

It's hard not to be intensely annoyed by the self serving charlatans on all sides of the house these days. The only real losers in this diabolical fiasco are set to be the hard working people of our country, but sadly that is always the case.

Corbyn reputedly won't enter talks while "no deal" is still on the table. That is what happens when the majority of MP's want to remain for personal or party political reasons. It's blatantly obvious that "no deal" is the best option for us at this juncture.

In respect to the EU

May's laughable deal was the option they wanted us to pick, because it was very beneficial to them and it would have been a huge win.

If we choose to remain that is also a win for them. We continue to play ball and pump in the cash. It also sends out a loud and clear message to any country that might consider following suit in the future.

If we choose one of the softer brexit options, like Norway or Canada, that is also a big win for them. Again, we pump in the cash, but we loose any meaningful say in the right to determine our own future.

The only option that could be classed as a loss for the EU is "no deal", because everyone will lose. It is the only option that the EU are frightened of, the only option they want to avoid at all costs. That is why it is the only option that will lead to the EU returning to the negotiating table with a fresh outlook and a desire to move towards a fair deal for everyone.

It's basic human nature. When people are faced with mutual hardship the differences that divide them are put to one side and they work together against the source of adversity.

If we take "no deal" off the table the EU are guaranteed a good deal for them so they can simply sit back, do nothing, and wait for us to pick our poison. The differences remain and the deadlock continues until one side capitulates.

It's negotiation 101 and Corbyn is a misguided fool if he truly thinks this is the way to get ensure a good outcome.

Nobody in their right mind takes the stick off the negotiating stable, because all that is left are the juicy carrots. The only reason a person could have for taking "no deal" off the table is if they are working to a remain agenda, or they are a complete moron. In the case of Corbyn either one, or both, of those could easily apply.
This user liked this post: tiger76

CrosspoolClarets
Posts: 5231
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:00 pm
Been Liked: 1623 times
Has Liked: 397 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:06 pm

The Norway deal would have been a good one if it had been done sensibly from the start, with a tweak to free movement befitting our unique (vs EEA or EFTA countries) size and appeal to migrants.

Instead our dimwitted MPs have twisted it to a Norway Plus (actually minus) option that is terrible and unworkable.

No deal should of course be avoided but it shouldn’t be officially voted down until we see if the EU offer more flexibility.

Ultimately though our MPs have no choice - they have to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement. We are where we are. There is no other option.

P.s. I’ll add this thought too, I’ve been too busy to read or post much this week but pondered this yesterday. I could support a second referendum under two conditions:

1. Question 1 is to recheck the Remain Or Leave split. Not Leave using options of a bad deal or no deal (a Remain fix). Just Leave. Again. We would then sign the Withdrawal Agreement if Leave wins. If Remain wins by a small margin (<55%) we have another vote during the next Parliament to recheck a third time.
2. Question 2 would then say, if we Leave and sign the Withdrawal Agreement, which type of free trade deal would you prefer. Options would be around half a dozen fairly spread and would address key questions such as if we want to remain in the Customs Union or the Single Market.

That would be democratic, albeit still a bit of a stitch up. It would also take matters out of the hands of MPs who let’s all agree have been woefully short of the standards required.
Last edited by CrosspoolClarets on Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12345
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5202 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:16 pm

If Parliament goes down the democratic route of a peoples vote and it is obvious Remain will win are there any brexiteers on here who would put the greater good of the country first and support the government just scrapping Brexit all together to save all the cost, time and uncertainty another referendum would bring?

I like to think there are some Brexiteers who would put their country and fellow countrymen first above their selfish political persuasions

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: #politicslive

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:18 pm

Feeling quite smug at the moment

Called the Norway deal about six months ago

dsr
Posts: 15139
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 4549 times
Has Liked: 2241 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by dsr » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:52 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:If Parliament goes down the democratic route of a peoples vote and it is obvious Remain will win are there any brexiteers on here who would put the greater good of the country first and support the government just scrapping Brexit all together to save all the cost, time and uncertainty another referendum would bring?

I like to think there are some Brexiteers who would put their country and fellow countrymen first above their selfish political persuasions
You think Brexiteers are somehow more noble than Remainers?

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by aggi » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:54 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Feeling quite smug at the moment

Called the Norway deal about six months ago
6 months. I called EU lite where we're still half in but with less influence two and a half years ago.
This user liked this post: Lancasterclaret

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12345
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5202 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:54 pm

dsr wrote:You think Brexiteers are somehow more noble than Remainers?
You sound like a Tory MP not answering the question

ClaretAndJew
Posts: 8020
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:08 am
Been Liked: 2814 times
Has Liked: 503 times
Location: Earth

Re: #politicslive

Post by ClaretAndJew » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:59 pm

ORDER ORDER

Jakubclaret
Posts: 9434
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
Been Liked: 1180 times
Has Liked: 778 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:05 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:If Parliament goes down the democratic route of a peoples vote and it is obvious Remain will win are there any brexiteers on here who would put the greater good of the country first and support the government just scrapping Brexit all together to save all the cost, time and uncertainty another referendum would bring?

I like to think there are some Brexiteers who would put their country and fellow countrymen first above their selfish political persuasions
Think you could be missing something here, let me enlighten you, the democratic route has already taken place on a win or lose basis majority wins, the most crucial thing is which is most imperative when people initially voted, in nobody's mind (Well not the leave camp anyhow) that the question of going back to redecide wasn't a entity, the whole essence of originally voting was to make a resounding decision & just let nature take its course. Brexit must take place its the will of the people.
These 2 users liked this post: Long Time Lurker Braindead

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12345
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5202 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:08 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:Think you could be missing something here, let me enlighten you, the democratic route has already taken place on a win or lose basis majority wins, the most crucial thing is which is most imperative when people initially voted, in nobody's mind (Well not the leave camp anyhow) that the question of going back to redecide wasn't a entity, the whole essence of originally voting was to make a resounding decision & just let nature take its course. Brexit must take place its the will of the people.
It was a simple question but I know some of you Brexiteers struggle to give a straight answer to any question. Feel free to try again though

Long Time Lurker
Posts: 1313
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:12 pm
Been Liked: 603 times
Has Liked: 420 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Long Time Lurker » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:09 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:If Parliament goes down the democratic route of a peoples vote and it is obvious Remain will win are there any brexiteers on here who would put the greater good of the country first and support the government just scrapping Brexit all together to save all the cost, time and uncertainty another referendum would bring?

I like to think there are some Brexiteers who would put their country and fellow countrymen first above their selfish political persuasions
Hogwash

Brexiteers who aren't prepared to reconsider can't be accused of having "selfish political persuasions" because this is a cross party issue. It transcends mainline politics and individual whims or it should do at least. The main problem is that far to many people are basing their decisions on what is best for them and not what is best for everyone now and in the future.

Remain would certainly win, as I've explained before. All those that voted remain have no reasont to change their vote, but some brexiteers might change because they are tired of how long this mess has gone on for and they have lost all faith in the ability of our politicians to get a respectable deal.

The brexit contingent would stand to lose votes and the remainers would gain votes. This could have nothing to do with the brexiteers changing their minds about what they actually feel is best for our country, they are simply more likely to back down and switch to bring the issue to an end. It is a deplorable strategy of obvious voter manipulation and nothing more. With the last vote being so close only a small percentage shift would win the day for remain.

When you consider that the majority of our politicians want remain, doing a U-turn would be rewarding them for failure or covert manipulation of the electorate.

Your statement "put the greater good of the country first" is based on the unsupported supposition that remain is the greater good option, which was the minority opinion at the last count.

The democratic decision has already been made and the result of the one and only leave/reamain referendum should stand. The only issue that should be considered in a referendum is the nature of our departure, which would be a choice between a managed exit, a Norway or Canada fudge and no deal.

Including remain as an option in any referendum would be an immense disservice to democracy. It would have divisive consequencies that could not be aligned with the greater good. We would be plotting a course for a playground best of 3, best of 5, best of 7 and so on.
Last edited by Long Time Lurker on Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jakubclaret
Posts: 9434
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
Been Liked: 1180 times
Has Liked: 778 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:09 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:It was a simple question but I know some of you Brexiteers struggle to give a straight answer to any question. Feel free to try again though
Desperate delusion if you think this can be overturned to satisfy a bitter MINORITY.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: #politicslive

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:10 pm

Interesting that you used 1,000 more words than you needed to say another referendum wouldn't be democratic.

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12345
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5202 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:13 pm

Long Time Lurker wrote:Hogwash

Brixiteers who aren't prepared to reconsider can't be accused of having "selfish political persuasions" because this is a cross party issue.

Remain would certainly win, as I've explained before. All those that voted remain have no reasont to change their vote, but some brexiteers might change because they are tired of how long this mess has gone on for and they have lost all faith in the ability of our politicians to get a respectable deal.

The brexit contingent would stand to lose votes and the remainers would gain votes. This could have nothing to do with the brexiteers changing their minds about what they actually feel is best for our country, they are simply more likely to back down and switch to bring the issue to an end. It is a deplorable strategy of obvious voter manipulation and nothing more. With the last vote being so close only a small percentage shift would win the day for remain.

When you consider that the majority of our politicians want remain, doing a U-turn would be rewarding them for failure or covert manipulation of the electorate.

Your statement "put the greater good of the country first" is based on the unsupported supposition that remain is the greater good option, which was the minority opinion at the last count.

The democratic decision has been already be made and the result of the one and only leave/reamain referendum should stand. The only issue that should be considered in a referendum is the nature of our departure, which would be a choice between a managed exit, a Norway or Canada fudge and no deal.

Including remain as an option in any referendum would be an immense disservice to democracy. It would have divisive consequencies that could not be aligned with the greater good. We would be plotting a course for a playground best of 3, best of 5, best of 7 and so on.
Thats an awful lot of waffle to not even answer my question.

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12345
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5202 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:14 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:Desperate delusion if you think this can be overturned to satisfy a bitter MINORITY.
Nope still failed the simple challenge. 3rd time lucky maybe????

Rick_Muller
Posts: 6092
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:53 am
Been Liked: 2619 times
Has Liked: 6419 times
Location: -90.000000, 0.000000

Re: #politicslive

Post by Rick_Muller » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:19 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:Desperate delusion if you think this can be overturned to satisfy a bitter MINORITY.
The delusion is from the 37% who think they represent the majority of the electorate, yet won’t admit that they were sold down the river by Boris, Farage et al who have all disappeared because they’ve f#cked the country over.

It takes courage to admit the info about Leave was all wrong, and the Brexit you wanted us nothing like what the deal on the table is - couple that with the truth that we’ll end up still in the EU in everything but name and have no rights to make decisions because we’re “not in the EU” anymore.

Long Time Lurker
Posts: 1313
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:12 pm
Been Liked: 603 times
Has Liked: 420 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Long Time Lurker » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:25 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Nope still failed the simple challenge. 3rd time lucky maybe????
Had I voted remain in the last referendum I would vote leave if another one takes place.

Had I voted leave in the last referendum I would vote leave if another one takes place.

Preserving the principle of democracy is more important than indulging the Machiavellian plotting of a disgruntled minority.

Manipulating events in an attempt to swing things your way, after the event, is dishonourable and as far removed from the greater good or the greatest happiness for the greatest number as you could possibly get.
This user liked this post: Hipper

CrosspoolClarets
Posts: 5231
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:00 pm
Been Liked: 1623 times
Has Liked: 397 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:25 pm

I am sure some people did plug the Norway deal 6 (or more) months ago, but what Boles is proposing is NOT the Norway deal. He is proposing a customs arrangement, plus being in the single market, accepting freedom of movement (with a brake of sorts) and paying loads of money (about £10bn annually probably). All with limited ability to strike our own arrangements.

So when it boils down to it the arrangement will be closer to the French option (but without influence) than the Norway option. Without doubt we’d be better staying in.

I’m all for avoiding no deal but that is a worry for 2019 alone. Boles and co are a worry for 2019-2039.

What we need is a new PM and an election. This Parliament has to go. Then the chips fall as they will. Whoever wins, so be it.

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12345
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5202 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:28 pm

Long Time Lurker wrote:Had I voted remain in the last referendum I would vote leave if another one takes place.

Had I voted leave in the last referendum I would vote leave if another one takes place.

Preserving the principle of democracy is more important than indulging the Machiavellian plotting of a disgruntled minority.

Manipulating events in an attempt to swing things your way, after the event, is dishonourable and as far removed from the greater good or the greatest happiness for the greatest number as you could possibly get.
Whilst I congratulate you on managing to make your post much more concise unfortunately you still dont seem to have grasped the question. Not to worry you arent on your own and at least you tried

Jakubclaret
Posts: 9434
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
Been Liked: 1180 times
Has Liked: 778 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:28 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Nope still failed the simple challenge. 3rd time lucky maybe????
I don't even know the question you asked never even looked to be honest, I've had a quick browse tonight & jumped on the maggot, well done 1 in the keepnet, you obviously follow threads & posts as a seasoned poster, doesn't matter regardless on the question I very much doubt parliament or the EU mob will paying much attention on this forum & mulling over the question asked, maybe another poster has followed this debate more closely & will counter as opposed to a general reply.

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12345
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5202 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:30 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:I don't even know the question you asked never even looked to be honest, I've had a quick browse tonight & jumped on the maggot, well done 1 in the keepnet, you obviously follow threads & posts as a seasoned poster, doesn't matter regardless on the question I very much doubt parliament or the EU mob will paying much attention on this forum & mulling over the question asked, maybe another poster has followed this debate more closely & will counter as opposed to a general reply.
I accept your surrender and wish you a goodnight

Jakubclaret
Posts: 9434
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
Been Liked: 1180 times
Has Liked: 778 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:33 pm

No white flag just haven't followed every individual post you have posted to comprehend the question you seem to want answering, maybe another poster will fare better than me. Night.
This user liked this post: Devils_Advocate

Long Time Lurker
Posts: 1313
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:12 pm
Been Liked: 603 times
Has Liked: 420 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Long Time Lurker » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:40 pm

A peoples vote that includes remain as an option is a second referendum in everything but name. The only real difference is that all the remainers would choose remain and the leavers would have their vote dispersed and diminished over a number of options. It's that old devil we call semantics.

Sleep well.

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by aggi » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:41 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:I am sure some people did plug the Norway deal 6 (or more) months ago, but what Boles is proposing is NOT the Norway deal. He is proposing a customs arrangement, plus being in the single market, accepting freedom of movement (with a brake of sorts) and paying loads of money (about £10bn annually probably). All with limited ability to strike our own arrangements.

So when it boils down to it the arrangement will be closer to the French option (but without influence) than the Norway option. Without doubt we’d be better staying in.

I’m all for avoiding no deal but that is a worry for 2019 alone. Boles and co are a worry for 2019-2039.

What we need is a new PM and an election. This Parliament has to go. Then the chips fall as they will. Whoever wins, so be it.
So the EU lite where we're still half in but with less influence. That's always been my prediction, a scenario where everyone loses.
This user liked this post: nil_desperandum

CombatClaret
Posts: 4381
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:09 pm
Been Liked: 1825 times
Has Liked: 929 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by CombatClaret » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:17 am

Long Time Lurker wrote:A peoples vote that includes remain as an option is a second referendum in everything but name. The only real difference is that all the remainers would choose remain and the leavers would have their vote dispersed and diminished over a number of options. It's that old devil we call semantics.
So just the first referendum in reverse, where all various Leave options were conglomerated, conjoined and packaged up.

Sounds fair actually, like a 2 leg tie played home and away.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: #politicslive

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:47 am

Had I voted remain in the last referendum I would vote leave if another one takes place.

Had I voted leave in the last referendum I would vote leave if another one takes place.

Preserving the principle of democracy is more important than indulging the Machiavellian plotting of a disgruntled minority.

Manipulating events in an attempt to swing things your way, after the event, is dishonourable and as far removed from the greater good or the greatest happiness for the greatest number as you could possibly get.
So you'd vote leave regardless. Welcome back Ringo

JohnMcGreal
Posts: 2207
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:37 am
Been Liked: 1344 times
Has Liked: 438 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by JohnMcGreal » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:51 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:I am sure some people did plug the Norway deal 6 (or more) months ago, but what Boles is proposing is NOT the Norway deal. He is proposing a customs arrangement, plus being in the single market, accepting freedom of movement (with a brake of sorts) and paying loads of money (about £10bn annually probably). All with limited ability to strike our own arrangements.
That sounds almost exactly like Norway's arrangement with the EU.

Norway, interestingly, voted 52-48 against joining the EU, so they pretty much became as closely aligned as possible without actually joining it, as this reflected the very narrow referendum result.

If May had done the same and gone for a Norway type arrangement, she probably would have got it through the HoC without issue. But she didn't. She's never been interested in uniting the country. She's only been interested in appeasing the hard right wing of her party and the 52% who voted to leave. Everyone else has been told to go to hell, which is one of the reasons why she's in such a mess.
These 2 users liked this post: longsidepies nil_desperandum

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by martin_p » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:23 am

Long Time Lurker wrote:Had I voted remain in the last referendum I would vote leave if another one takes place.

Had I voted leave in the last referendum I would vote leave if another one takes place.

Preserving the principle of democracy is more important than indulging the Machiavellian plotting of a disgruntled minority.

Manipulating events in an attempt to swing things your way, after the event, is dishonourable and as far removed from the greater good or the greatest happiness for the greatest number as you could possibly get.
You’re really completely misunderstanding democracy if you think having a vote would be anti-democratic.

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:35 am

No deal described here is as good as the one we already have. And anyone seriously worried about the state of our democracy should look no further than how political parties are funded, our first past the post system, and our praxda like media - all of which should be of graver concern than the bumbling implementation of the people’s will were seeing now.
This user liked this post: Rick_Muller

quoonbeatz
Posts: 4491
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:03 am
Been Liked: 2562 times
Has Liked: 757 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by quoonbeatz » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:54 am

Long Time Lurker wrote:A peoples vote that includes remain as an option is a second referendum in everything but name. The only real difference is that all the remainers would choose remain and the leavers would have their vote dispersed and diminished over a number of options.
That's why we're in this mess. Leavers all want different things. With all options on the table, the one with the most people backing it is remain. It simply can't be ignored.

Quickenthetempo
Posts: 17917
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:35 am
Been Liked: 3842 times
Has Liked: 2065 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Quickenthetempo » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:59 am

Theresa May will regret downsizing the police force if there's a 2nd referendum and remain manages to sneak in.
It could end up like France is at the moment. Not that you would know with the media blackout.

Chobulous
Posts: 2132
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:27 am
Been Liked: 955 times
Has Liked: 11 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Chobulous » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:59 am

quoonbeatz wrote:That's why we're in this mess. Leavers all want different things. With all options on the table, the one with the most people backing it is remain. It simply can't be ignored.
Sorry but your logic is flawed. It may be that more people back remain than the other options but the flip side is that more people oppose remain or did so at the last count. That is something you seem to simply ignore.

dsr
Posts: 15139
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 4549 times
Has Liked: 2241 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by dsr » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:14 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:That sounds almost exactly like Norway's arrangement with the EU.

Norway, interestingly, voted 52-48 against joining the EU, so they pretty much became as closely aligned as possible without actually joining it, as this reflected the very narrow referendum result.

If May had done the same and gone for a Norway type arrangement, she probably would have got it through the HoC without issue. But she didn't. She's never been interested in uniting the country. She's only been interested in appeasing the hard right wing of her party and the 52% who voted to leave. Everyone else has been told to go to hell, which is one of the reasons why she's in such a mess.
Norway's politicians wanted to join but the population (twice) voted them down, so instead they made a deal as close to joining as they could without actually being official members.

quoonbeatz
Posts: 4491
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:03 am
Been Liked: 2562 times
Has Liked: 757 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by quoonbeatz » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:25 am

Chobulous wrote:Sorry but your logic is flawed. It may be that more people back remain than the other options but the flip side is that more people oppose remain or did so at the last count. That is something you seem to simply ignore.
Not ignoring it at all. The last count was 2.5 years ago and things may have changed. If you have another vote, you can't leave out any of the available options. If the leave side is concerned about their vote being split, that's their problem. They've had 2.5 years to unite behind the version of brexit they want but they still can't do it.

Bordeauxclaret
Posts: 10273
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:36 pm
Been Liked: 3327 times
Has Liked: 1942 times

Re: #politicslive

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:26 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:Theresa May will regret downsizing the police force if there's a 2nd referendum and remain manages to sneak in.
It could end up like France is at the moment. Not that you would know with the media blackout.
These threats are very entertaining.

Post Reply