#politicslive

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Chobulous
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Re: #politicslive

Post by Chobulous » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:36 am

quoonbeatz wrote:Not ignoring it at all. The last count was 2.5 years ago and things may have changed. If you have another vote, you can't leave out any of the available options. If the leave side is concerned about their vote being split, that's their problem. They've had 2.5 years to unite behind the version of brexit they want but they still can't do it.
So if things have changed and there has to be a second referendum then that assumption should be what is tested. In that instance the question should be should we leave the EU or Remain.
That can be followed up by a second question in the event of a leave majority centred on the Leave options available. Unfortunately I guess that would not be acceptable to those of your persuasion because you would not get that vital split in the Leave vote that you know you need to achieve a Remain victory.
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Quickenthetempo
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Re: #politicslive

Post by Quickenthetempo » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:37 am

Bordeauxclaret wrote:These threats are very entertaining.
Not a threat more of a prediction.

It's the remainers playing up at the moment as they desperately seek to change the result.
Going against the will of the people will ignite huge tensions.

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Re: #politicslive

Post by quoonbeatz » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:44 am

Chobulous wrote:So if things have changed and there has to be a second referendum then that assumption should be what is tested. In that instance the question should be should we leave the EU or Remain.
That can be followed up by a second question in the event of a leave majority centred on the Leave options available. Unfortunately I guess that would not be acceptable to those of your persuasion because you would not get that vital split in the Leave vote that you know you need to achieve a Remain victory.
Unsurprisingly, you guess wrong. That would be absolutely fine by me. Its leavers who are scared of a second referendum.

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Re: #politicslive

Post by JohnMcGreal » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:47 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:Not a threat more of a prediction.

It's the remainers playing up at the moment as they desperately seek to change the result.
Going against the will of the people will ignite huge tensions.
The result of any new referendum would be the will of the people.

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Re: #politicslive

Post by JohnMcGreal » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:51 am

dsr wrote:Norway's politicians wanted to join but the population (twice) voted them down, so instead they made a deal as close to joining as they could without actually being official members.
I know. That's basically what I said.

The Uk's politicians wanted us to remain, but the population (narrowly) voted differently. So we should have made a deal as close to remaining as we could without actually being official members. Also known as the Norway model.

nil_desperandum
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Re: #politicslive

Post by nil_desperandum » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:11 am

Chobulous wrote:So if things have changed and there has to be a second referendum then that assumption should be what is tested. In that instance the question should be should we leave the EU or Remain.
That can be followed up by a second question in the event of a leave majority centred on the Leave options available. Unfortunately I guess that would not be acceptable to those of your persuasion because you would not get that vital split in the Leave vote that you know you need to achieve a Remain victory.
That's exactly the sort of referendum that it would be and has been proposed, though as IT pointed out, (and I accepted) some time ago, it doesn't need to be worded like that. Some form of single transferable vote system would equally deliver the same result.
Personally I think that your formula would be best since even the stupidest person would be able to understand it whereas the concept of marking preferences or having more than one vote would confuse some.
Basically 2 simple questions would cover it:
1. Do you wish the UK to leave the EU Yes / No
2. If there is a simple majority for leave, which of the following options do you support?
Choice of - hopefully - only 2 options follows. No deal or "the deal that is proposed"
I think all remainers assume a referendum of the type you suggest. I doubt that a referendum that appeared to favour one side would be legal.
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Re: #politicslive

Post by Quickenthetempo » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:31 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:The result of any new referendum would be the will of the people.
So what would happen if we had a 2nd referendum and leave won again?

But the politicians on the gravy train don't want to leave again?

Will the will of the people be ignored for a 2nd time?

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Re: #politicslive

Post by Darthlaw » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:34 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:The result of any new referendum would be the will of the people.
Like last time?

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Re: #politicslive

Post by Rick_Muller » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:35 am

So, if I get this right we're currently heading towards a "Norway Model" type membership where we are "in" the EU which should appease the Remainers but generally p!ss them off because we're not "in" the EU because the "Norway Model" doesn't allow for us to have any say... AND because the "Norway Model" means that we're "in" the EU the Leavers will be p!ssed because we're still "in" the EU, but the majority of them (those fed by the social media frenzy and dont actually know their left from right) these people will be "happy" because Leave won and we have "left" the EU.

what a total f#ck up...
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Burnley Ace
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Re: #politicslive

Post by Burnley Ace » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:37 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:So what would happen if we had a 2nd referendum and leave won again?

But the politicians on the gravy train don't want to leave again?

Will the will of the people be ignored for a 2nd time?
Politicians will still be “on the gravy train” irrespective of whether we leave or not
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Re: #politicslive

Post by Rick_Muller » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:39 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:But the politicians on the gravy train don't want to leave again?

Will the will of the people be ignored for a 2nd time?
Darthlaw wrote:Like last time?
That's been my problem with the 1st referendum 37% of the electorate does not represent the "will of the people" as it keeps being stated - if it was 50% or more of the electorate that statement would apply, but it isn't so it doesn't.

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Re: #politicslive

Post by nil_desperandum » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:39 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:So what would happen if we had a 2nd referendum and leave won again?
Obviously - in one sense - that would be the best result as it would put a significant part of the issue to bed. Remainers would be v disapppointed but having "tested twice" just about every one of them would accept it and get behind it. What else could they do? I don't hear remainers going round saying that there will be civil unrest and threatening violence if they lose. Do you?
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Re: #politicslive

Post by Chobulous » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:40 am

Burnley Ace wrote:Politicians will still be “on the gravy train” irrespective of whether we leave or not
Yes but the EU offers a much bigger, fatter, more nutritious, venal gravy train.

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Re: #politicslive

Post by Rick_Muller » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:42 am

Chobulous wrote:Yes but the EU offers a much bigger, fatter, more nutritious, venal gravy train.
indeed, but whilst in the EU our country has a say in how that is managed. The current Leave deal being discussed means that we will still need to pay for that gravy train without having any say in how they spend it - absolutely ludicrous position to be in

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Re: #politicslive

Post by Mala591 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:43 am

Which of the Brexit 'red lines' will be first to go?

Customs union for me

The red line that should never be sacrificed would be freedom of movement (imo)

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Re: #politicslive

Post by Darthlaw » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:44 am

Rick_Muller wrote:That's been my problem with the 1st referendum 37% of the electorate does not represent the "will of the people" as it keeps being stated - if it was 50% or more of the electorate that statement would apply, but it isn't so it doesn't.
You can't force people to vote in this country (unfortunately) so turnout is irrelevant. Of those who chose to have a voice, more wanted to leave than remain - that is how democracy works.

I'm sure 'your problem' wouldnt have been as much of an issue, had remain won by the same margin.
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Re: #politicslive

Post by Quickenthetempo » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:46 am

nil_desperandum wrote:Obviously - in one sense - that would be the best result as it would put a significant part of the issue to bed. Remainers would be v disapppointed but having "tested twice" just about every one of them would accept it and get behind it. What else could they do? I don't hear remainers going round saying that there will be civil unrest and threatening violence if they lose. Do you?
If we had a 2nd referendum and remain won, but the government who is run by Jacob Rees Mogg at the time, still leaves the EU then yes I would expect rioting.

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Re: #politicslive

Post by dsr » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:52 am

nil_desperandum wrote:Obviously - in one sense - that would be the best result as it would put a significant part of the issue to bed. Remainers would be v disapppointed but having "tested twice" just about every one of them would accept it and get behind it. What else could they do? I don't hear remainers going round saying that there will be civil unrest and threatening violence if they lose. Do you?
Revolutions and civil unrest are always more likely in the case of democratic rights being taken away from people, than they are when rights are being given to people who haven't earned them. Certain types of people will protest, violently sometimes, because they are a minority and can't win a vote. But it's always more likely that protests, violent sometimes, will come from people who have won the vote and had their vote discounted.

I dare say if Remain had won the referendum but a pro-leave government had taken us out of the EU anyway, then some Remain supporters might have found it in them to threaten violence.

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Re: #politicslive

Post by Rick_Muller » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:53 am

Darthlaw wrote:You can't force people to vote in this country (unfortunately) so turnout is irrelevant. Of those who chose to have a voice, more wanted to leave than remain - that is how democracy works.

I'm sure 'your problem' wouldnt have been as much of an issue, had remain won by the same margin.
I think your assessment of "my problem" is accurate, but not for the reasons you have probably assumed.

I conclude that of those who didn't vote in the first referendum for whatever reason were likely to be relatively happy with the status quo and probably incorrectly felt that there was no real discernible threat from the Leave campaign and that their vote wouldn't amount to much - that is a fair assessment I think you'd agree. Whereas if you supported the Leave campaign, you HAD to go out and vote, otherwise your voice wouldn't be heard. Common sense and simple human nature is all that is required to understand that. So on that understanding, had the remain campaign won with 52% of the vote and 37% of the electorate it would be a fair assumption that those who didn't vote would also be happy with the status quo, and it would be the will of the people.

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Re: #politicslive

Post by Darthlaw » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:00 am

nil_desperandum wrote:Remainers would be v disapppointed but having "tested twice" just about every one of them would accept it and get behind it.
Given their track record since the result of the referendum, that is a frankly hilarious suggestion.
nil_desperandum wrote: I don't hear remainers going round saying that there will be civil unrest and threatening violence if they lose. Do you?
Maybe yet another march on London or camp outside parliament? Check 'the new european' events section of their website for 'How you can help the grassroots anti-Brexit campaigns'

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Re: #politicslive

Post by dsr » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:00 am

Rick_Muller wrote:I think your assessment of "my problem" is accurate, but not for the reasons you have probably assumed.

I conclude that of those who didn't vote in the first referendum for whatever reason were likely to be relatively happy with the status quo and probably incorrectly felt that there was no real discernible threat from the Leave campaign and that their vote wouldn't amount to much - that is a fair assessment I think you'd agree. Whereas if you supported the Leave campaign, you HAD to go out and vote, otherwise your voice wouldn't be heard. Common sense and simple human nature is all that is required to understand that. So on that understanding, had the remain campaign won with 52% of the vote and 37% of the electorate it would be a fair assumption that those who didn't vote would also be happy with the status quo, and it would be the will of the people.
By extension to general elections, does that mean that when Labour is in power all the non-voters like the Labour party, but when the Tories are in power all the non-voters like the Conservatives?

One answer to your suggestion might be to re-run the referendum based on the idea that the status quo presently is for leave. That was, all the Remain people would have their chance to make their voice heard by voting, while anyone who doesn't vote can be presumed to allow the leave process to carry on. Would you get the 63% of the electorate voting for Remain, do you think?

The problem with compulsory voting is that the "don't cares" suddenly get a huge voice in what goes on. You're basically getting elections decided by random crosses from people who don't want to vote. Is that a good thing?

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Re: #politicslive

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:04 am

dsr wrote:Revolutions and civil unrest are always more likely in the case of democratic rights being taken away from people, than they are when rights are being given to people who haven't earned them. Certain types of people will protest, violently sometimes, because they are a minority and can't win a vote. But it's always more likely that protests, violent sometimes, will come from people who have won the vote and had their vote discounted.

I dare say if Remain had won the referendum but a pro-leave government had taken us out of the EU anyway, then some Remain supporters might have found it in them to threaten violence.
When have people not earned rights that have been “given” to them? I would say we all have rights - naturally, though past governments have withheld them.

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Re: #politicslive

Post by Darthlaw » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:05 am

Rick_Muller wrote:I conclude that of those who didn't vote in the first referendum for whatever reason were likely to be relatively happy with the status quo and probably incorrectly felt that there was no real discernible threat from the Leave campaign and that their vote wouldn't amount to much - that is a fair assessment I think you'd agree.
I think your conclusion has no basis whatsoever and there's not a chance I can agree with it. Again, I'd also stress thats not how democracy works.

No vote - No voice. Just how long has that campaign been going? It's plain and simple, if they did not see fit to cast a vote, their opinion whether leave or remain is worthless.

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Re: #politicslive

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:09 am

Looking forward to a pensioner led civil war it has to be said.

Anyone know what the armor penetration effect of a thrown zimmer frame is?

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Re: #politicslive

Post by Rick_Muller » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:09 am

dsr wrote:By extension to general elections, does that mean that when Labour is in power all the non-voters like the Labour party, but when the Tories are in power all the non-voters like the Conservatives?

One answer to your suggestion might be to re-run the referendum based on the idea that the status quo presently is for leave. That was, all the Remain people would have their chance to make their voice heard by voting, while anyone who doesn't vote can be presumed to allow the leave process to carry on. Would you get the 63% of the electorate voting for Remain, do you think?

The problem with compulsory voting is that the "don't cares" suddenly get a huge voice in what goes on. You're basically getting elections decided by random crosses from people who don't want to vote. Is that a good thing?
I’m sorry, you can’t compare general elections with a referendum, so your analogy is wrong, and I have said nothing about compulsory voting - I’ve stated only that for a 2 way choice that it should require 50% of the electorate to win and be “The will of the people” - stating the “will of the people” without 50% of the electorate is disingenuous. It is just my opinion, that’s all.

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Re: #politicslive

Post by Darthlaw » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:11 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Looking forward to a pensioner led civil war it has to be said.

Anyone know what the armor penetration effect of a thrown zimmer frame is?
Guerilla warfare - Just flood da yoof's tinder with fake profiles of old gimmers... ;)

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Re: #politicslive

Post by Hipper » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:11 am

What is the case for a second referendum?

There seem to be two ideas:

1. The voters have changed.

2. The voters have changed their minds.

1. The voters have changed.

The idea with this is that in the two plus years since the 2016 referendum, there are young people who are now old enough to vote. Young people generally prefer ‘remain’. Meanwhile, older people have been dying, and older people generally vote leave. Therefore there will now be more people who vote remain then leave and so the result of a second referendum will be ‘remain’.

This assumes that young people will keep the same beliefs as they age. I’m not sure the evidence shows that is true. More likely, as we age our view changes, therefore at some point between coming of voting age and death, we will change from ‘remain’ to ‘leave’.

In other words, a second referendum is unlikely to alter the result. Indeed, as the population is aging it seems that it is more likely that the ‘leave’ vote will increase!

2. The voters have changed their opinions.

Voters of all ages may change their views based on new evidence available to them. The argument for this is that firstly, we were deceived by the distortions (I’m being polite!) presented to us by both sides, and secondly, have now become aware of the immense complications that need to be solved (the Irish border being the most obvious example).

The first point, our deception, I think is just a cry of ‘foul’ even though we saw through it all anyway (just like people complaining about Nic Clegg’s promise of stopping tuition fees when nobody in their right mind would possibly consider he could implement that). Most people I’ve spoken to voted on the basis of immigration and sovereignty, even if they didn’t, and perhaps never will, understand all that this entails. They simply wanted to stop people squeezing their wages and housing opportunities, or seemingly increasing NHS demand.

The second reason, the immense complications and therefore distractions from the normal running of the country, is perhaps something most didn’t consider, and is the only real argument for a second referendum. However,
there was information available about the sort of complications that might ensue, namely from the discussions that came with the Scottish independence debate, and the case of Czechoslovakia. Frankly I’m not sure people care too much about this as long as their on the ground concerns (immigration etc.) are dealt with. Surely it is for our MPs to sort this out.

The Case Against a Second Referendum

The damage to any faith we have in our democratic system. It will look like ‘we have just voted on something and the powers that be don’t like the result, so we must try to get the ‘right’ result this time’.

We are not a country that uses referendums regularly, and then only on very important issues (e.g. our democratic methods or the countries structure):

https://www.parliament.uk/get-involved/ ... in-the-uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Only three referendums have been repeated, the ones for the Scottish and Welsh Assemblies, in 1979 and 1997, with a changed result, and for membership of the EU, in 1975 and of course 2016. If we are going to become a country like Switzerland, who have what they call ‘direct democracy’, then fine, but we are not:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_Switzerland" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My conclusion is, using the above reasoning about voters changing, or changing minds, and the possible damage to our democracy of not implementing the 2016 referendum’s choice, we should not have a second referendum.

We have given our instructions to our leaders and it is for them to carry them out. If our democratic system as currently set up can’t do that, we need another system. ‘They’ managed to get us in. Now they can get us out.
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Re: #politicslive

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:13 am

"Get Simon on the phone will you Mavis, I've forgotten my tinder details again"

"Stop drinking that Gin Donald, thats supposed to be for the Molotov Cocktails"
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Re: #politicslive

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:19 am

If our democratic system as currently set up can’t do that, we need another system.
Hipper your posts are always well worth a read but that is a deeply worrying sentence.

You are advocating the complete change around of the democratic system because you can't get your version of Brexit.

Thats as mental as the stuff that the real head wobblers on here come out with.

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Re: #politicslive

Post by Darthlaw » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:20 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:"Get Simon on the phone will you Mavis, I've forgotten my tinder details again"

"Stop drinking that Gin Donald, thats supposed to be for the Molotov Cocktails"
An invasion of University campus with questions like ‘what do you mean you identify as a transformer’ should cause enough disruption
We shall fight them in the safe spaces... ;)

Good to have the banter back, Lancs

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Re: #politicslive

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:22 am

Its all we have left Darth.

Christ, what a f**k up this is.
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Re: #politicslive

Post by Darthlaw » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:25 am

Gallows humour is sometimes some of the finest stuff, unfortunately.
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Re: #politicslive

Post by Quickenthetempo » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:29 am

What people don't realise is all them Leave voters who have sadly passed on have left a note in the will to the young uns receiving.

You shall only inherit this 50k pounds when a successful leave vote is done with proof required. Should another referendum be taken.
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Re: #politicslive

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:33 am

Come off it Quick, you know as well as I do that every leaver who has gone to the great big Brexit in the sky has been buried with strict instructions for their money to be used in the continuing search for a big red reset button which magically sends us back to 1957.

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Re: #politicslive

Post by Lord Rothbury » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:44 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Looking forward to a pensioner led civil war it has to be said.

Anyone know what the armor penetration effect of a thrown zimmer frame is?
Bloody hell some of these leftie/libbie remainers burst into tears if someone calls them a nasty name first sight of a zimmer they would keek their pants.

Bring it on some good old fashioned street/terrace scrapping. :lol:

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Re: #politicslive

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:45 am

With pensioners?

I expect the really fat ones falling on you might hurt a bit but you are almost certain to get up before them!

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Re: #politicslive

Post by summitclaret » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:00 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Looking forward to a pensioner led civil war it has to be said.

Anyone know what the armor penetration effect of a thrown zimmer frame is?
It wont be like that. As the baby boomers apparently have all the money they will pay young thugs to sort it. Whichever side the army pick will win. Smiley

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Re: #politicslive

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:02 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:Not a threat more of a prediction.

It's the remainers playing up at the moment as they desperately seek to change the result.
Going against the will of the people will ignite huge tensions.
Going out causing trouble, risking your job, house freedom etc is a little different than mouthing off about it on twitter or wherever.

A few weirdos, the likes who hang around parliament square will shout a lot and tip over a bin or two.
The rest will hide behind their screens.
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Re: #politicslive

Post by Damo » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:04 pm

There won't be a 2nd referendum.

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Re: #politicslive

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:04 pm

My plan to avoid getting lamped in a Brexit civil war is simple.

The Brexiteers will use each Wetherspoons like fortified strong points. They won't call it the Maginot Line (filthy foreign name eh?) but something patriotic like the "Fortifications of Farage".

Course, they will have all the problems of the Maginot Line, and I'll just walk around them.
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Re: #politicslive

Post by Hipper » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:16 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Hipper your posts are always well worth a read but that is a deeply worrying sentence.

You are advocating the complete change around of the democratic system because you can't get your version of Brexit.

Thats as mental as the stuff that the real head wobblers on here come out with.
Actually I voted 'remain'. My bigger concern is our democracy.

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Re: #politicslive

Post by Quickenthetempo » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:16 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:My plan to avoid getting lamped in a Brexit civil war is simple.

The Brexiteers will use each Wetherspoons like fortified strong points. They won't call it the Maginot Line (filthy foreign name eh?) but something patriotic like the "Fortifications of Farage".

Course, they will have all the problems of the Maginot Line, and I'll just walk around them.
I don't think the frustrations will be took out on remainers but politicians and the like.

Then the police can say sorry Theresa you slashed all our budgets we can't help you.

Can you imagine the expenses as they hire squadrons of Ghurkas for protection until they can private jet themselves away?

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Re: #politicslive

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:19 pm

Actually I voted 'remain'. My bigger concern is our democracy.
But that line I quoted suggests that leaving without a deal is the position that all leavers voting for. That is blatantly false.

I'm still of the opinion that there will be a deal but if that fails, then I would argue that a "No Deal" is more undemocratic than a 2nd vote (for reasons already highlighted on this thread)

EDIT apologies for forgetting you voted remain btw I know you've mentioned it before.
Last edited by Lancasterclaret on Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: #politicslive

Post by Billy Balfour » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:20 pm

There might be some civil unrest, but it will be the usual suspects and our authorities have plenty on intel on such people. Most people just want to get on with their lives - there's no way on earth they would risk their liberty for something like this. People take to the streets on mass when they are jobless AND starving, not over having a referendum on a Brexit deal or whatever.
Last edited by Billy Balfour on Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: #politicslive

Post by Billy Balfour » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:23 pm

I've just had to edit my post about three times. Weekend can't come quick enough.

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Re: #politicslive

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:25 pm

The dangers of civil unrest are after economic hardship and the like, so the chances are actually increased in the event of a "No Deal" Brexit.

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Re: #politicslive

Post by Billy Balfour » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:29 pm

Indeed.

I'm talking about the 'promises', from some quarters, of civil unrest if there's another vote.

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Re: #politicslive

Post by Billy Balfour » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:31 pm

BTW: I don't want another referendum, but I would most certainly take one if the only option on the table was 'no deal'.
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Re: #politicslive

Post by duncandisorderly » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:39 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Looking forward to a pensioner led civil war it has to be said.

Anyone know what the armor penetration effect of a thrown zimmer frame is?
D6+3
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Re: #politicslive

Post by Damo » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:49 pm

30/03/2019 we leave. With or without a deal. It's enshrined into law.
You can thank Gina Miller for that.

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