#politicslive

Caballo · Post by **Caballo** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:02 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:We need a new plague.

Agreed, something along the lines of the one that struck the Bellinger river in 2015 should do it.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:08 pm

Fibropapillomatosis would do just fine.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:11 pm

Honestly, some sort of plague that stops people changing the subject, believing stuff that isn't true and concentrating minds on getting a deal would be fantastic.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:12 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:I've said it before on here, but the 'shy' vote in the next referendum will be crucial. It takes courage to admit that you might be wrong about something and to change your mind publicly, which is why I don't think you'll see too many people broadcasting it. But in the privacy of the voting booth, I can't help but feel that a good number of people who voted to leave last time, would vote to remain now given the current climate.

Flipside to that & by that same token you could equally argue in the "privacy of the voting booth" its logical to assume that some remain voters also have regrets & since the vote have swayed the other way with the way things have been conducted & certain unhelpful attitudes. We can all say & surmise he or she would have done this that & the other, but the truth probably sits somewhere in between & for certain we will never really know.

biggles · Post by **biggles** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:17 pm

i would vote for our Nige.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:27 pm

Nice of you to let us know, but its not exactly a shock that you'd be a fan of his!

biggles · Post by **biggles** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:32 pm

he enjoys his beer, as do I - what's not to like? he's just like millions of other working lads.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:34 pm

Well, if liking a beer is what we are looking for in our politicians then fair enough.

I'm a big fan of beer, but also integrity, competence, loyalty, patriotism.

Nige is sadly missing those rather essential qualities.

CleggHall · Post by **CleggHall** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:37 pm

biggles wrote:he enjoys his beer, as do I - what's not to like? he's just like millions of other working lads.

Nige - Dulwich College public school then stockbroker is a different kind of "working lad".

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:40 pm

I too would vote for Nigel. He's done well for a lad who went to his local comp and worked hard. An inspiration to millions of working people.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:46 pm

Liam Fox - who said last year that there would be up to forty free trade agreements waiting to be signed on the minute after Brexit o'clock - has now said there aren't any. There are some at an advanced stage, but we'd need the goodwill of the countries in question to get them over the line in time. So he's hoping that we can continue to use the EU negotiated ones for a while. This is what 'taking back control' looks like.

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:55 pm

The chickens are coming home to roost for the Brexit bullshitters - unfortunately it involves the rest of us too. You couldn't make up. Yes I know they did, but you get my drift.

biggles · Post by **biggles** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:57 pm

ok. i'll stop the messing around now but... the message is this; you lefties and bloody liberals think you have all the answers and that everyone else is an idiot. you think that you are in the vast majority of voters and that your thoughts and beliefs must surely be held by nearly everyone. re farage, you are blinded by your beliefs and cannot even conceive that Nigel could actually come back with a new party etc,. like Trump and Brexit, you all, rather smugly, didn't think there was a cat in hell's chance but look what happened. national majorities [who have different ideas than you do] gave you all a massive shock. all i'm saying is, i guess, that just about anything can happen in politics. and those things are what you would neither have wanted nor expected.

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:59 pm

Yes, dear. Now do you want a biscuit with your tea?

Chobulous · Post by **Chobulous** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:20 pm

Billy Balfour wrote:Yes, dear. Now do you want a biscuit with your tea?

And that rather neatly reinforces Biggles’ point. A smug, pointless bit of smart arsery. The chattering classes got a bloody nose 2 years ago, Trump delivered his version in the USA and the same could easily happen again. They will never learn that people do not like being patronised.

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:22 pm

HunterST_BFC wrote:Trust me I'm left.

Abbott should not be out there..........

She thinks so slowly her feet think its still last Monday

Fiona Bruce lying about the polls to make Abbott look stupid, but that’s ok

Barry_Chuckle · Post by **Barry_Chuckle** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:24 pm

Abbott makes Abbott look stupid

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:24 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Well, if liking a beer is what we are looking for in our politicians then fair enough.

I'm a big fan of beer, but also integrity, competence, loyalty, patriotism.

Nige is sadly missing those rather essential qualities.

Just a reminder Lancs that the word 'patriotic' has been removed from the Oxford English dictionary and has been replaced by the word 'racist'.

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:28 pm

Chobulous wrote:And that rather neatly reinforces Biggles’ point. A smug, pointless bit of smart arsery.

He deserved the comment. He was being highly presumptuous. He classed everyone who doesn't agree with his POV as lefties, bloody liberals and blinded.

Chobulous wrote:The chattering classes got a bloody nose 2 years ago

Chattering classes? What, all 16,141,241 of them? Blimey.

Chobulous · Post by **Chobulous** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:32 pm

The chattering classes in this case are the vociferous Remainers who couldn’t comprehend the possibility that they would lose, who branded all Leavers as narrow minded, geriatric ignorant, uneducated little englanders. Who felt and still feel that they are the sole arbiters of conventional wisdom. Those chattering classes.

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:34 pm

I think you're tilting at windmills.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:34 pm

Just a reminder Lancs that the word 'patriotic' has been removed from the Oxford English dictionary and has been replaced by the word 'racist'.

Nope, quite a lot of people using the word "patriot" when they really need to use the word "nationalist", and quite a lot of them are also massive racists.

I'm a patriot mate, I'm proud to be British.

Someone like Tommy Robinson is a nationalist, and a racist.

See the difference?

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:42 pm

Barry_Chuckle wrote:Abbott makes Abbott look stupid

Yes the first Black woman MP , she must be really stupid , or just an easy target

Barry_Chuckle · Post by **Barry_Chuckle** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:44 pm

joey13 wrote:Yes the first Black woman MP , she must be really stupid , or just an easy target

Middle option from what I've seen

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:45 pm

Boris is the news again today claiming he didn’t mention Turkey in the build up to the first referendum.
As night follows day so does footage of him banging on about Turkey in the build up.

Still, he’ll brush off the questions and people will move on.

Guich · Post by **Guich** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:49 pm

joey13 wrote:Yes the first Black woman MP , she must be really stupid , or just an easy target

Irrelevant - no need to shoehorn race or gender in. She simply appears to be stupid.

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:58 pm

Guich wrote:Irrelevant - no need to shoehorn race or gender in. She simply appears to be stupid.

Every need to shoehorn her being the first black women to become a MP sort of makes my point she isn’t stupid

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:09 pm

More reality crashing in.

But not reported anywhere near widely enough.

We are fast reaching the stage were denying reality is going to hurt us hard

https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status ... 7784496130" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

biggles · Post by **biggles** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:24 pm

nahh, mate. doesn't sound true to me. but did he really say all that stuff?

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:40 pm

Guich wrote:Irrelevant - no need to shoehorn race or gender in. She simply appears to be stupid.

I don't think that Ms. Abbot comes across well, and can be seen as a liability to Lanour, but let's get real, she's far from stupid. In fact she's probably sharper and brighter than 99℅ on this board.
They don't just give away degrees at Cambridge you know.
Just getting in there requires enormous talent and dedication.
She is the daughter of Jamaican immigrants - a welder and nurse. As I said I don't think she's up to the job,but she's done bloody well, and you don't achieve what she has done by being stupid.

Guich · Post by **Guich** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:10 pm

Hi Nildesp

I did say 'she appears to be stupid'.

She certainly did when trying to explain how much 10,000 police would cost, and again last night. Not up to the job I agree. I have met a few stupid people at Oxford University, and many bright people who didn't get past O-Level.

'Hopelessly limited' may be a better description.

I just think her colour and race has no bearing on stupidity or otherwise. The Shadow Education Secretary doesn't appear to be the brightest light on the Christmas Tree but the fact she has ginger hair has nothing to do with it.

That said, well done to DA for being the first black female MP - that's an achievement regardless.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:37 pm

Boris lying about the lies today.
The media need to hold people more accountable for the blatant lies but they're too afraid & deferential to the personalities of government or afraid they might not be invited to the next party or get a quote for a book they're writing.

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:44 pm

biggles wrote:he enjoys his beer, as do I - what's not to like? he's just like millions of other working lads.

Aye all those working lads on their own private jets!

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:58 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:More reality crashing in.

But not reported anywhere near widely enough.

We are fast reaching the stage were denying reality is going to hurt us hard

https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status ... 7784496130" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It’s another example of the classic Brexiteer definition of a negotiated deal. We say what we want and the other party just says yes and signs.

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:17 pm

martin_p wrote:It’s another example of the classic Brexiteer definition of a negotiated deal. We say what we want and the other party just says yes and signs.

Always someone else’s fault isn’t it Liam Fox!

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:07 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Your making less and less sense.

I deliberately left out an option for ever closer union to expecting an accusation of being unfair. Obviously there is a third question for my part 3 for fairness.

Point being after all this hassle, I want closure so we can start sorting the real issues like social care.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:57 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:And this series of tweets from a trade expert (who I went to school with bizarrely enough!)

https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status ... 6494433281" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hi Lancs, I like it. I've now got an answer to at least one person you define as an "expert."

Is it his Oxford PPE, working for civil service, including EU-US trade negotiations for TTIP, or the fact he went to school with you that makes David Henig an expert?

DH has obviously got experience in relevant areas. On the other hand, personally, I'd hesitate to describe DH as an "expert."

But, fair do's.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:07 pm

Its his job Paul. I just happen to recognise him from his picture.

Put it one way, he's been on the radio pretty much solidly since the trade impacts of this broke.

I'd trust him on trade more than Liam Fox. He also correctly forecasted that Fox is never going to quit his role because he likes the power and the trappings it gives him, despite him being a hardline Brexiteer.

If it helps, there are at least ten other people I follow on twitter who I didn't go to school with, but are equally qualified and say the same things. One of them was on QT last night for example.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:18 pm

Fox is simply abysmal.

May's inhumane immigration policy is still causing people distress. So focused on arbitrarily bringing down net immigration, she was happy for things like this to happen in order to achieve her number (which she never did anyway):

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... main-in-uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:27 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:More reality crashing in.

But not reported anywhere near widely enough.

We are fast reaching the stage were denying reality is going to hurt us hard

Hi Lancs, we can debate (argue) all day about reality etc etc etc.

My solution - as posted also a few weeks back:

1) Withdraw Article 50 - yes, put an end to Brexit. A true leader (sorry, TM) a "strong and stable" leader would declare today that "the country is in a mess...." no blame, whether members of the electorate voted remain or leave and no recriminations.

2) UK returns to full and active membership of the EU....

3) Then we take steps, along with the other 27 countries, to re-write Article 50 (and anything else that needs re-writing) in the EU treaties. We add in the bits that were missed out last time - what are the rights and obligations when a member state chooses to leave the EU - and what is the default relationship between the rEU and the departing member(s). Adding those missing bits to Lisbon treaty takes care of more than 3 years wasted effort; no further need for any country choosing to leave needing to negotiate a withdrawal agreement, it's already done. Similarly, no need to negotiate relationships post-leaving, that's also got a default position, so day 1 after leaving is sorted.

4) If the EU has the courage to revise Article 50 and there is agreement on the future of any member state choosing to leave, then maybe the EU will also start to mature into an organisation that starts to "solve problems in the world" and maybe it will become the organisation I would suggest that most in the UK would want the UK to be a member of. Maybe in 5 years time we could test this with a new referendum, simple "remain or leave" simple, we know what leave will mean and we know what remain means.

5) Along/side all this we reform UK politics - again, as I've posted before:

burst the Westminster bubble - parliament relocates to Manchester (Northern Powerhouse), North East, Bristol/South West, Birmingham etc - back to London (but not Westminster/central London every 20 years or so;

no more career politicians, no more political dynasties, only one member of a family group in politics at any one time. I think my slogan would be "politics for the many...."

get rid of the House of Lords and replace with an Assembly of Knowledgeable Persons - majority of KPs would be people who have never been in politics.

Item 5 would be the reform that the electorate really wants - and would be much better than continuing on this fruitless "should we leave or should we remain" debate.

And, of course, most of the politicians serving in parliament today should be told their political careers are at an end. 29-March-2019 would be a good date to do this.

The music from Les Mis will be a good sound track!

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:33 pm

To be honest, we have to find a way to delay Article 50 till we are ready to leave.

We are miles away in every possible way and there isn't any point pretending that we are ready.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:34 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Its his job Paul. I just happen to recognise him from his picture.

Put it one way, he's been on the radio pretty much solidly since the trade impacts of this broke.

If it helps, there are at least ten other people I follow on twitter who I didn't go to school with, but are equally qualified and say the same things. One of them was on QT last night for example.

I'm hoping it was the guy on the right of the panel (as the panel faced the audience). I think he said some sensible things and appeared to be more thoughtful and informed.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:36 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:To be honest, we have to find a way to delay Article 50 till we are ready to leave.

We are miles away in every possible way and there isn't any point pretending that we are ready.

I'm arguing give us political reform and we might have politicians that are fit to keep us all happy and full members of the EU. (Euro still has to go, because that is harming many of the eurozone member states).

taio · Post by **taio** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:37 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:To be honest, we have to find a way to delay Article 50 till we are ready to leave.

We are miles away in every possible way and there isn't any point pretending that we are ready.

You balked at my suggestion recently that delaying Article 50 would be a real possibility. "Where do you get this stuff from" (or similar) was the response.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:55 pm

Apologies if I did. I'm struggling to keep up with the sheer ineptitude of what is going on and what appears to be impossible suddenly becomes possible under certain conditions.

According to the telegraph, May has sent exactly the same set of demands to the EU and appears to think she can get the EU to move. As they haven't moved in two years, that is so fanciful that I can't believe that she's still doing it. But then again I haven't got the ERG and a lot of right wing media pumping out utter bilge.

Could be completely different tomorrow of course!

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:13 pm

Well you might think she is mad but the answer is to sort the backstop. Norway is not leaving and NO leaver thinks it is. Better to remain and regroup than such shite and have another go with 2 years' notice for a no deal.

Norway won't agree anyway. End of option. Its a joke. No control of borders. Still have to pay in
No voice on anything. No trade deals with the world. Do remainers think leavers are thick?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:35 pm

Norway are not in the EU. Norwegians don't think they are in the EU.

Course, its peak Brexit to know Norway better than the Norwegians though.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:21 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Hi Lancs, we can debate (argue) all day about reality etc etc etc.

My solution - as posted also a few weeks back:

1) Withdraw Article 50 - yes, put an end to Brexit. A true leader (sorry, TM) a "strong and stable" leader would declare today that "the country is in a mess...." no blame, whether members of the electorate voted remain or leave and no recriminations.

2) UK returns to full and active membership of the EU....

3) Then we take steps, along with the other 27 countries, to re-write Article 50 (and anything else that needs re-writing) in the EU treaties. We add in the bits that were missed out last time - what are the rights and obligations when a member state chooses to leave the EU - and what is the default relationship between the rEU and the departing member(s). Adding those missing bits to Lisbon treaty takes care of more than 3 years wasted effort; no further need for any country choosing to leave needing to negotiate a withdrawal agreement, it's already done. Similarly, no need to negotiate relationships post-leaving, that's also got a default position, so day 1 after leaving is sorted.

4) If the EU has the courage to revise Article 50 and there is agreement on the future of any member state choosing to leave, then maybe the EU will also start to mature into an organisation that starts to "solve problems in the world" and maybe it will become the organisation I would suggest that most in the UK would want the UK to be a member of. Maybe in 5 years time we could test this with a new referendum, simple "remain or leave" simple, we know what leave will mean and we know what remain means.

5) Along/side all this we reform UK politics - again, as I've posted before:

burst the Westminster bubble - parliament relocates to Manchester (Northern Powerhouse), North East, Bristol/South West, Birmingham etc - back to London (but not Westminster/central London every 20 years or so;

no more career politicians, no more political dynasties, only one member of a family group in politics at any one time. I think my slogan would be "politics for the many...."

get rid of the House of Lords and replace with an Assembly of Knowledgeable Persons - majority of KPs would be people who have never been in politics.

Item 5 would be the reform that the electorate really wants - and would be much better than continuing on this fruitless "should we leave or should we remain" debate.

And, of course, most of the politicians serving in parliament today should be told their political careers are at an end. 29-March-2019 would be a good date to do this.

The music from Les Mis will be a good sound track!

I think it's entirely laudable to look at ways of improving the system, and I'm sure everyone would have a suggestion or two. For me, changing the voting system, and overhauling the way politics is funded would be major changes. Possibly too the way the media report on politics, which in this country is quite appalling. The beginning of the process should be a Royal Commission to look into it in great detail, accept input from members of the public, and interested experts, and perhaps travel to other countries to look at the way things are done elsewhere (though whatever we come up with should be a British solution).

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:26 pm

Absolutely 100% there should be our own version of the Mueller inquiry into politics, political funding though I'm not sure if having a look at the press is going to help.

Levinson II maybe?

Bin Ont Turf · Post by **Bin Ont Turf** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:58 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Apologies if I did. I'm struggling to keep up with the sheer ineptitude of what is going on and what appears to be impossible suddenly becomes possible under certain conditions.

It's probably for the best that you take a break from this thread because you are getting yourself in quite a spin.

You know everything and what's going to happen in the future, so now you can take a rest.