#politicslive

[Caballo]

One thing that is clear as a bell from these threads is that only one side wants to compromise on a close referendum result.

And despite different Brexit plans ON THIS VERY BOARD, people still say they know exactly what the 17.4 million voted for.

Sorry Lancs I can't agree, amongst the committed remainers you're pretty much the only one advocating some form of deal, unless of course you consider ignoring the result or demanding a re-vote to be compromise. Further to that I'd also add that even your position has shifted and the language and tone you now use differs greatly from when this all began.

[Lancasterclaret]

I'm not though am I Caballo?

And I'm pretty sure most of the remainers on here are aware that a 2nd ref should only be the last resort (though I do appreciate that there could be rows about what and where does it constitute a "last resort")

And the ones advocating just abandoning Article 50 are definitely in the minority (though again, the arguments about the validity of the referedum are another one that won't go away)

There is enough support for a compromise, but there has to be give on the Brexit side.

[Quickenthetempo]

But on the plus side, my Hi-viz vest company sales will go through the roof.

Bloodstained ones from France are going pretty cheap at the moment.

[Caballo]

I'm not though am I Caballo?

And I'm pretty sure most of the remainers on here are aware that a 2nd ref should only be the last resort (though I do appreciate that there could be rows about what and where does it constitute a "last resort")

And the ones advocating just abandoning Article 50 are definitely in the minority (though again, the arguments about the validity of the referedum are another one that won't go away)

There is enough support for a compromise, but there has to be give on the Brexit side.

You're far and away the most measured Lancs and have advocated compromise from the off. The only others 'contributing' to these threads now are firmly wedded to their position at either side and appear to think shouting the enemy down is the way to go. Almost all of the measured posters on this subject abandoned the discussions long ago.
Agree ref compromise though, both sides have to concede ground if a consensus is to be reached.

[Test User]

You're far and away the most measured Lancs and have advocated compromise from the off. The only others 'contributing' to these threads now are firmly wedded to their position at either side and appear to think shouting the enemy down is the way to go. Almost all of the measured posters on this subject abandoned the discussions long ago.
Agree ref compromise though, both sides have to concede ground if a consensus is to be reached.

Compromise on what?

[Lancasterclaret]

I think that is the problem with a perceived binary choice.

[summitclaret]

I'm not though am I Caballo?

And I'm pretty sure most of the remainers on here are aware that a 2nd ref should only be the last resort (though I do appreciate that there could be rows about what and where does it constitute a "last resort")

And the ones advocating just abandoning Article 50 are definitely in the minority (though again, the arguments about the validity of the referedum are another one that won't go away)

There is enough support for a compromise, but there has to be give on the Brexit side.

The compromise most would take is ruling out no deal once remain accept we ae leaving and no 2 nd ref. However the EU are playing hardball on the backstop.

What really is unfair is that the EU say that there is a fixed deal when our Parliament has not agreed one. Yet the EP can have a final say and then 27 countries can.

[nil_desperandum]

You're far and away the most measured Lancs and have advocated compromise from the off. The only others 'contributing' to these threads now are firmly wedded to their position at either side and appear to think shouting the enemy down is the way to go. Almost all of the measured posters on this subject abandoned the discussions long ago..

Might I suggest that you re-read posts from the regular "remain" posters on here. Just about all, (with the very odd exception) have been suggesting a deal, and have put forward strong arguments for one. Some variant on Norway has long been the favoured option for most of us, but May has made this kind of compromise impossible due to her contradictory red lines.
(Pretty much in line with Labour policy oddly enough) a People's Vote is generally regarded as the last option when all others have been exhausted, but we are fast reaching that point.

[dsr]

One thing that is clear as a bell from these threads is that only one side wants to compromise on a close referendum result
...

Well, obviously only one side wants to compromise. The losers. If Remain had got 52%, Remainers wouldn't have wanted to compromise on a close referendum result, and been looking for a way to keep us in while having the characteristics of leaving.

[Lancasterclaret]

You can't blame the EU for making sure our inability to get our act together does minimal damage to the members of the EU summit.

This is our mess, we have to be able to sort it, put up an acceptable plan so we can present it to the EU.

[aggi]

You're far and away the most measured Lancs and have advocated compromise from the off. The only others 'contributing' to these threads now are firmly wedded to their position at either side and appear to think shouting the enemy down is the way to go. Almost all of the measured posters on this subject abandoned the discussions long ago.
Agree ref compromise though, both sides have to concede ground if a consensus is to be reached.

I think a large number of remainers, myself included, would accept some form of Norway style deal with a customs union.

I don't think a second referendum is a great idea as it's unlikely to be a convincing majority either way but I would favour it over no deal as that is likely to be catastrophic given the minimal preparations that have been made (you could also make arguments that there is a larger mandate for remain than no deal but I doubt that those who believe no deal is actually a reasonable plan would accept that).

[Burnley Ace]

Well, obviously only one side wants to compromise. The losers. If Remain had got 52%, Remainers wouldn't have wanted to compromise on a close referendum result, and been looking for a way to keep us in while having the characteristics of leaving.

If Remain had won and the statu quo remained what compromises would you want? If remain had won would you expect UKIP to end, Farage to resign his seat and slip quietly into the shadows?

[FactualFrank]

What are people's thoughts on the Lisbon Treaty?

[Lancasterclaret]

Mine?

It stops European Union. Any further integration would have to be a EU wide treaty.

So its a very good thing

[dsr]

If Remain had won and the statu quo remained what compromises would you want? If remain had won would you expect UKIP to end, Farage to resign his seat and slip quietly into the shadows?

If Remain had won i would have expected us to remain full members of the EU. Remainers seem to think that because the result was close-ish to half and half, that the end product ought to be close-ish to half and half membership. But they wouldn't have been pushing for half-and-half membership if they had won.

[FactualFrank]

Mine?
It stops European Union. Any further integration would have to be a EU wide treaty.
So its a very good thing

I've read bits of it, including the UK having to adopt the Euro if we remain, and losing a lot of control of what we currently have, if we were to remain.

[Guich]

Compromise on both sides is a must in any negotiation. But in this case, unhelpfully played out in the media daily, all the posturing has been there for the world to see.

Common wisdom says that No Deal would be a disaster for both the EU and the UK and the negotiators know it. So, if we all avoided the news for a few weeks, my guess is we'd come back to see a deal of some sorts.

The mood music has changed a little. Both Merkel and Macron have said further negotiation is needed, the biggest EU beneficiary of all (Poland) has hinted that a 5 year limit on the backstop may be an option and even Jacob Rees Mogg has said, in the light of a 'new reality' supporting the government would not constitute 'softening' his stance.

Has Germany just dipped into recession? The 2018 Q4 figures are so bad that some are saying they simply must be wrong.

No Deal is wanted by few (with influence) but I believe taking it off the table at this point would be naïve in the extreme.

I find it hard to believe it's a good idea for a negotiation of this size to be done in front of the eyes of the world. It was always going to be difficult, but from what we see in the news it does look like it's been messed up so far and that is causing hysteria in some quarters.

Next time I go to negotiate a contract I think I'll hire a sports hall and get a crowd in to watch me do it.

[Chobulous]

Compromise on both sides is a must in any negotiation. But in this case, unhelpfully played out in the media daily, all the posturing has been there for the world to see.

Common wisdom says that No Deal would be a disaster for both the EU and the UK and the negotiators know it. So, if we all avoided the news for a few weeks, my guess is we'd come back to see a deal of some sorts.

The mood music has changed a little. Both Merkel and Macron have said further negotiation is needed, the biggest EU beneficiary of all (Poland) has hinted that a 5 year limit on the backstop may be an option and even Jacob Rees Mogg has said, in the light of a 'new reality' supporting the government would not constitute 'softening' his stance.

Has Germany just dipped into recession? The 2018 Q4 figures are so bad that some are saying they simply must be wrong.

No Deal is wanted by few (with influence) but I believe taking it off the table at this point would be naïve in the extreme.

I find it hard to believe it's a good idea for a negotiation of this size to be done in front of the eyes of the world. It was always going to be difficult, but from what we see in the news it does look like it's been messed up so far and that is causing hysteria in some quarters.

Next time I go to negotiate a contract I think I'll hire a sports hall and get a crowd in to watch me do it.

Don't forget to take a colleague/s with you to scream, cry, stamp their feet and shout from the sidelines that they won't abide by any agreement you make and will do everything they can to undermine you because they preferred your previous partner.

[RingoMcCartney]

You couldn’t be further from reality if you tried. I pray the economic forecast are wrong. The fear is that they aren’t.

You didn't answer my question. Why are Remoaners frightened of democracy being enacted and the uk leaving the EU? Is it because they're scared of all their predictions economic catastrophe being proven wrong and them looking daft?

You still haven't answered this-

Ringo McCartney-

"Bercow is being kept on place to "Stop Brexit". His role will be pivotal"

Martin p -

"You do know it's not Bercow that will define what the vote is don't you? He's just the the facilitator Ringo"

You going to admit you were wrong and my prediction was prohpehetic.?

[RingoMcCartney]

If Remain had won i would have expected us to remain full members of the EU. Remainers seem to think that because the result was close-ish to half and half, that the end product ought to be close-ish to half and half membership. But they wouldn't have been pushing for half-and-half membership if they had won.

Remoaners are convinced it's possible to be half pregnant.....

[martin_p]

You didn't answer my question. Why are Remoaners frightened of democracy being enacted and the uk leaving the EU? Is it because they're scared of all their predictions economic catastrophe being proven wrong and them looking daft?

You still haven't answered this-

Ringo McCartney-

"Bercow is being kept on place to "Stop Brexit". His role will be pivotal"

Martin p -

"You do know it's not Bercow that will define what the vote is don't you? He's just the the facilitator Ringo"

You going to admit you were wrong and my prediction was prohpehetic.?

He’s done exactly what I said he can do, decide on which amendments to allow. If you can link where I’ve said otherwise then feel free.

[aggi]

You didn't answer my question. Why are Remoaners frightened of democracy being enacted and the uk leaving the EU? Is it because they're scared of all their predictions economic catastrophe being proven wrong and them looking daft?

Don't you think they may be concerned about them being proven right and the economy going down the pan, probably a bigger issue than some bruised egos.

I know you like the juvenile "you lost, get over it" but we're all in this together, we all win or we all lose.

[martin_p]

Don't you think they may be concerned about them being proven right and the economy going down the pan, probably a bigger issue than some bruised egos.

I know you like the juvenile "you lost, get over it" but we're all in this together, we all win or we all lose.

Pretty much what I said to him. He can’t work out that what I said answers his question though.

[RingoMcCartney]

He’s done exactly what I said he can do, decide on which amendments to allow. If you can link where I’ve said otherwise then feel free.

Despite lots of fair minded posters, to their credit, admitting I was right. You still cannot bring yourself to do it.

Now you know and I know the thread where you claims have come to be proven wrong and my prediction was right was pulled.

However, if you Google " Bercow, Martin p and Ringo McCartney" the results show a glimpse of our conversation.

It shows you claiming "You do know it's not Bercow that will define what the vote is don't you? He's just the the facilitator Ringo"

What we now know is that Bercow chose to tell Peter Bone , a Brexiteer, the motion was NOT AMENDABLE. Yet when approached by the odious Dominic Grieve, a Remoaner, he chose to actually do the very opposite and breach hundreds of years of parliamentary procedural protocol and ALLOW AN AMENDMENT to the motion. Rather than being a simple "facilitator " of the rules he breached them and his actions meant that he, and he alone was able to "define" what the vote would be.

The EXACT opposite of what you claimed. And what a simple Google search shows you claimed and proves I was right and you were wrong.

Technology eh!

[Lancasterclaret]

Oliver Norgrove - former Vote Leave staffer saying that anybody claiming that leave advocated "No Deal" is lying

https://twitter.com/OliverNorgrove/stat ... 2134857728" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RingoMcCartney]

Don't you think they may be concerned about them being proven right and the economy going down the pan, probably a bigger issue than some bruised egos.

I know you like the juvenile "you lost, get over it" but we're all in this together, we all win or we all lose.

If their previous predictions about what would happen to the economy if we didn't join the single currency, and if simply voted to leave are anything to go buy, their concerns will be proven to be misplaced.

I think they're being juvenile in wanting to thwart democracy through fear of being proven wrong.

YET AGAIN.!!!

[Test User]

Oliver Norgrove - former Vote Leave staffer saying that anybody claiming that leave advocated "No Deal" is lying

https://twitter.com/OliverNorgrove/stat ... 2134857728" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They couldn't be happy with just leaving on the terms they campaigned for. That would be too much like winning, and if I've learned anything about perpetual victims is that they need an enemy to oppose.
They're the dog that caught the car, and not know what to do next they just started chasing another car.

[RingoMcCartney]

Oliver Norgrove - former Vote Leave staffer saying that anybody claiming that leave advocated "No Deal" is lying

https://twitter.com/OliverNorgrove/stat ... 2134857728" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyone advocating "no deal" is really advocating "no brexit"

Last week's BBC Question Time showed that's what the majority feel.

The look on the panels bewildered faces , following that rousing roar of approval was a sight to behold.

[Lancasterclaret]

So a former Vote Leave staffer secretly wants to remain?

[martin_p]

Despite lots of fair minded posters, to their credit, admitting I was right. You still cannot bring yourself to do it.

Now you know and I know the thread where you claims have come to be proven wrong and my prediction was right was pulled.

However, if you Google " Bercow, Martin p and Ringo McCartney" the results show a glimpse of our conversation.

It shows you claiming "You do know it's not Bercow that will define what the vote is don't you? He's just the the facilitator Ringo"

What we now know is that Bercow chose to tell Peter Bone , a Brexiteer, the motion was NOT AMENDABLE. Yet when approached by the odious Dominic Grieve, a Remoaner, he chose to actually do the very opposite and breach hundreds of years of parliamentary procedural protocol and ALLOW AN AMENDMENT to the motion. Rather than being a simple "facilitator " of the rules he breached them and his actions meant that he, and he alone was able to "define" what the vote would be.

The EXACT opposite of what you claimed. And what a simple Google search shows you claimed and proves I was right and you were wrong.

Technology eh!

Use the technology to link then. Any quote where I’ve called you Ringo is clearly made up as I’ve been calling you Wrongo for months now. Come on Wrongo, where’s your evidence? Bercow didn’t break the rules, he acted within his remit. Even Rees-Mogg agrees he was entitled to do it (although he thinks he shouldn’t have). You are of course omitting the context of the conversation of course, that being your claim that Bercow could ‘force’ a second referendum.

And further to the above, exactly what difference has Bercow allowing the amendment made to the likelihood of Brexit happening?

[RingoMcCartney]

Use the technology to link then. Any quote where I’ve called you Ringo is clearly made up as I’ve been calling you Wrongo for months now. Come on Wrongo, where’s your evidence? Bercow didn’t break the rules, he acted within his remit. Even Rees-Mogg agrees he was entitled to do it (although he thinks he shouldn’t have). You are of course omitting the context of the conversation of course, that being your claim that Bercow could ‘force’ a second referendum.

And further to the above, exactly what difference has Bercow allowing the amendment made to the likelihood of Brexit happening?

Hahaha!!!

I've already told you- "John Bercow, Martin p and Ringo McCartney " the results show you making a claim that has been proven wrong!


You really are in danger of looking foolish. Just accept you were wrong with a bit of dignity while you still have some.

I said his role "will be pivotal " And he was only being kept in position to "Stop Brexit "

So there we have it. The majority of Remain voters on here acknowledged I've been proven right. And fair play to them. Most commentators in the media agree his role was "pivotal"

The independent describing Bercows role as "pivotal"

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/br ... 22691.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


The guardian describing Bercows role as "pivotal"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rexit-bias" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The spectator describing Bercows role as " pivotal"

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/01/j ... or-labour/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


And the former speaker of the house, Betty Boothroyd, who had and still has, universal respect in parliament. Described what Bercow did as , "disgusting"

Yet you marty, cannot and probably never will accept, with grace, you were wrong and I've been proven right.

[martin_p]

Well unless Google can link to a thread your behaviour got deleted then you’re lying. Go on, if you have the proof link it.

[martin_p]

Oh, and you haven’t answered my question about exactly what impact on Brexit the allowed amendment has had.

[Masham Ale]

......... I want MPs to do what they are elected to do - represent all their constituents, not just a select few.........

So do I. My constituency voted for Brexit. My MP cannot represent all the individual constituents individually which is why we vote, to get the overall 'result' for a complete constituency. In my constituency this was OUT and my MP should fight to implement that wish in parliament rather than follow his own or own party's agenda.

[Lancasterclaret]

Which version of "Out" did his constituents vote for?

[Test User]

Which version of "Out" did his constituents vote for?

A Red, White and Blue version.

Don't you know anything?!

[Burnley Ace]

If Remain had won i would have expected us to remain full members of the EU. Remainers seem to think that because the result was close-ish to half and half, that the end product ought to be close-ish to half and half membership. But they wouldn't have been pushing for half-and-half membership if they had won.

So you wouldn’t want any compromise, it’s either in or out (are you advocating a exit with no transition period , no customs union, no single market and no cooperation on any joint projects?).

If remain had won would you expect UKIP to be disbanded and all political parties or members to stop campaigning to leave or reform?

[RingoMcCartney]

Which version of "Out" did his constituents vote for?

Which version of Remain did you vote for?

A hard remain or a soft remain?

Hard Remain-

Joining the Euro.

Allowing the British army to be consumed by an EU army.

Agreeing to all future increases in the billions we send each year to Brussels.

Accepting further political and economic union.

Accepting transnational ministers to override nation states budgets.

Soft Remain-

Not joining the Euro.

Not Allowing the British army to be consumed by an EU army.

Locking future increases in the billions we send each year to Brussels to the amount we send to todays amount.

Not accepting further political and economic union.

Not accepting transnational ministers to override nation states budgets.

Which ever one you voted for, and I know it pains you to hear it. Your side lost.

But hey, that's democracy.

[summitclaret]

Which version of "Out" did his constituents vote for?

Presumably one where we control own borders, laws, money and have the ability to trade freely. Just like everyone did.

[nil_desperandum]

So do I. My constituency voted for Brexit. My MP cannot represent all the individual constituents individually which is why we vote, to get the overall 'result' for a complete constituency. In my constituency this was OUT and my MP should fight to implement that wish in parliament rather than follow his own or own party's agenda.

I and others have explained this before. MPs aren't delegates. They represent the whole constituency and therefore ALL its constituents. This includes everyone who is too young to vote, anyone who was too young to vote in 2016, but is now old enough, and other people who are not entitled to vote for whatever reason, (e.g. non-UK EU citizens), students who temporarily live outside the constituency etc.
They have to go to Parliament and represent what they judge to be the best interests of the whole constituency. This means that they might also give added significance to certain factors that have a disproportionate influence / impact on the local economy. (e.g. if a large number of workers were dependent on (e.g.) a Toyota factory they might consider this to be more important than the views of (e.g.) students or pensioners.)
Both Burke and Churchill were very clear in clarifying and stressing this important principle.

[RingoMcCartney]

So you wouldn’t want any compromise, it’s either in or out (are you advocating a exit with no transition period , no customs union, no single market and no cooperation on any joint projects?).

If remain had won

You're advocating the old "it's possible to be half pregnant" argument I see.

If Remain had won. Would you expect that result to be implemented ?

[Burnley Ace]

So do I. My constituency voted for Brexit. My MP cannot represent all the individual constituents individually which is why we vote, to get the overall 'result' for a complete constituency. In my constituency this was OUT and my MP should fight to implement that wish in parliament rather than follow his own or own party's agenda.

We have a Representative Democracy not a Direct Democracy. We vote for a representative to use their judgment to do what is in the best interest of the Country not just to follow the wishes of the loudest group.

Even if we did have a Direct Democracy did over 50% of the population want to leave? Did over 50% of the registered voters want to leave? Want you are wanting is for your MP to perhaps ignore what he knows is best to appease 40% of his constituents? That’s hardly democracy.

[Lancasterclaret]

Ringo/summit

Both of you still struggling, despite all the evidence that people who voted leave voted for different things

And still struggling with the reality that those of us who voted remain, voted knowing that we voting for it to be the same, whatever our misgivings or dreams about what that meant.

I don't presume to assume that nil/martin p/test user voted remain for, why do you presume you know what 17.4 million others voted for?

[Test User]

You're advocating the old "it's possible to be half pregnant" argument I see.

If Remain had won. Would you expect that result to be implemented ?

If Remain had won it wouldn't have been a complete **** show.

If Remain wins a People's Vote will you shut up forever about leaving the EU the way you've demanded Remainers shut up about remaining?


*spoiler*
He won't

[RingoMcCartney]

This includes everyone who is too young to vote, anyone who was too young to vote in 2016, but is now old enough,

Aah the old "We need to deny the space , time continuum" Approach.

What a facile argument.

The very next day after any 2nd referendum there would be people who were too young to vote the day before , but old enough to vote the day after.

If you follow your logic you're arguing for a NEVERENDUM!

Are you Doctor Who in disguise?!

[Burnley Ace]

You're advocating the old "it's possible to be half pregnant" argument I see.

If Remain had won. Would you expect that result to be implemented ?

Doesn’t (as with most things you write!) make sense. If remain had won what would need to be implemented (to implement means to put a decision into effect). To remain wouldn’t need anything to be implemented.

I know you struggle if it’s not a yes/no question so I will make it easy - if remain had won would you expect all campaigns to leave or reform the EU to stop?

[RingoMcCartney]

Ringo/summit

Both of you still struggling, despite all the evidence that people who voted leave voted for different things

And still struggling with the reality that those of us who voted remain, voted knowing that we voting for it to be the same, whatever our misgivings or dreams about what that meant.

I don't presume to assume that nil/martin p/test user voted remain for, why do you presume you know what 17.4 million others voted for?

You didn't answer my question. Hard remain or soft remain? Because hard or soft leave was not on the ballot paper, but you want to keep asking the question to Brexiteers.

1. When people vote labour or tory , are all voters voting for them for the same reason? Yes / No

2. Does whoever gets the most votes form a government? Yes/ no

3. Is the result implemented? Yes / no

[Test User]

You didn't answer my question. Hard remain or soft remain? Because hard or soft leave was not on the ballot paper, but you want to keep asking the question to Brexiteers.

1. When people vote labour or tory , are all voters voting for them for the same reason? Yes / No

2. Does whoever gets the most votes form a government? Yes/ no

3. Is the result implemented? Yes / no

Define hard and soft remain before you expect an answer. I can define Hard and Soft Brexit pretty easily. Can you define the Hard and Soft variants of Remain without getting laughed at by the rest of us?

-------------
1. When people vote labour or tory , are all voters voting for them for the same reason? No

2. Does whoever gets the most votes form a government? No

3. Is the result implemented? No

[Lancasterclaret]

Because its a bullshit question Ringo.

Its straw clutching to try to convince everybody that because you voted for completely out, therefore everyone did.

[RingoMcCartney]

Doesn’t (as with most things you write!) make sense. If remain had won what would need to be implemented (to implement means to put a decision into effect). To remain wouldn’t need anything to be implemented.

I know you struggle if it’s not a yes/no question so I will make it easy - if remain had won would you expect all campaigns to leave or reform the EU to stop?

If remain had won, I wouldn't expect the result to be challenged with almost immediate effect. Nor would I expect MPs, who'd only just stood on manifestos pledging to honour the Remain win, to openly start trying to usurp democracy.