There was an aviator on the radio earlier saying that a single-engine plane choosing to go the long way over the Channel (115 miles instead of 20 at Dover-Calais) and go at (reportedly) 2,500 feet so reducing any chance of a glide seemed an odd choice to him. He thought the height might have been to avoid icing.Test User wrote:Is that unusual?
Plane missing in the Channel
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
Re: Plane missing in the Channel
Surely the idea of flying twice as far to have a shorter sea crossing, is an idea that went out of fashion shortly after "Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines" era. It's not as if crashing over land in the dark is much safer than crashing in the sea in the dark. The standard route, allowing for flight traffic rules, would surely be a straight line?
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
Just being reported that the search has ended for the day and they will resume tomorrow.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
I'm no expert. He seemed to think that a single-engine plane over water wasn't a great idea and while crashing land or sea isn't any better, I understood him to be saying (rather obviously) that you would want to be over something solid you could glide down on to if there were a failure.dsr wrote:Surely the idea of flying twice as far to have a shorter sea crossing, is an idea that went out of fashion shortly after "Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines" era. It's not as if crashing over land in the dark is much safer than crashing in the sea in the dark. The standard route, allowing for flight traffic rules, would surely be a straight line?
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
I think with that, any optimism goes, sadly.ClaretTony wrote:Just being reported that the search has ended for the day and they will resume tomorrow.
What a tragedy.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
The pilot had radioed in to ask for permission to land at Guernsey.thatdberight wrote:There was an aviator on the radio earlier saying that a single-engine plane choosing to go the long way over the Channel (115 miles instead of 20 at Dover-Calais) and go at (reportedly) 2,500 feet so reducing any chance of a glide seemed an odd choice to him. He thought the height might have been to avoid icing.
Flying an extra 250 - 300 miles so as to use the short sea route hardly makes sense. If they were flying from Bordeaux or Spain then would that aviator still have expected them to fly up to the Straits of Dover?
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
I wish I hadn't bothered reporting what the pilot on the radio said; I had no idea this forum also doubled as the main meeting place for rest-day BALPA members.bfcmik wrote:The pilot had radioed in to ask for permission to land at Guernsey.
Flying an extra 250 - 300 miles so as to use the short sea route hardly makes sense. If they were flying from Bordeaux or Spain then would that aviator still have expected them to fly up to the Straits of Dover?
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
It's fairly normal, when you enter a conversation, to expect other people to respond to what you say. What were this radio pilot's qualifications? Are you sure he wasn't just shooting a line? I don't think anyone would double the length of a flight because it would make a crash landing safer; if the chances of a crash landing were statistically significant enough for that, then the plane wouldn't be allowed to take off. One hopes.thatdberight wrote:I wish I hadn't bothered reporting what the pilot on the radio said; I had no idea this forum also doubled as the main meeting place for rest-day BALPA members.
Re: Plane missing in the Channel
Absolutely awful news, was only the other day reading in the paper his Cardiff move was fulfilling his dream of playing in the premier league and then this.... sad sad stuff!
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
Is it possible that the observation was that (rather than fly over Calais), it might be surprising that the pilot did not travel around 20 miles to the East of his apparent route, which would have had the plane travel over the Cherbourg peninsula (right up to about the point where it appears to have come down), and so halved the time over the water?
Anyway, its probably neither here nor there. Terrible tragedy.
Anyway, its probably neither here nor there. Terrible tragedy.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
I love this forum.
A pilot and a promising young life has (as far as we can assume) been lost .... and folk on here are pettily picking out holes in their flight paths.
A pilot and a promising young life has (as far as we can assume) been lost .... and folk on here are pettily picking out holes in their flight paths.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
Searched over 1 thousand square miles and found nothing, search due to be resumed tomorrow.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
dsr wrote:It's fairly normal, when you enter a conversation, to expect other people to respond to what you say. What were this radio pilot's qualifications? Are you sure he wasn't just shooting a line? I don't think anyone would double the length of a flight because it would make a crash landing safer; if the chances of a crash landing were statistically significant enough for that, then the plane wouldn't be allowed to take off. One hopes.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
aye very grim newsTest User wrote:Ugh! I've just had a morbid moment. I was looking on flight radar for similar flights to see if flying at that altitude is normal when i noticed a weird flight path north of Guernsey. Then realised it's a search and rescue plane.
Re: Plane missing in the Channel
Just heard that debris has been spotted but impossible at the moment to say if it was the plane.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
I ran a corporate flight department that ran flights across Lake Michigan in a variety of aircraft types. No way were we sending a single engined plane over the lake at night, into known icing. And that would be with the janitor on board, never mind a high value executive. It might be legal to do it, but whether it's sensible is different matter. There are now reports that this was a PISTON Malibu being operated VFR. Everyone's risk tolerance is different. By my personal standards this was a very risky flight. Get a good night's sleep in France and do the flight in the morning.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
I wonder if the fee has been paid,contract signed and he was a Cardiff player.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
All that was signed saturday he was saying his goodbyes to his friends and teamates .bfcjg wrote:I wonder if the fee has been paid,contract signed and he was a Cardiff player.
Re: Plane missing in the Channel
Good to read that a janitor would be more expendableOshkoshclaret wrote:I ran a corporate flight department that ran flights across Lake Michigan in a variety of aircraft types. No way were we sending a single engined plane over the lake at night, into known icing. And that would be with the janitor on board, never mind a high value executive. It might be legal to do it, but whether it's sensible is different matter. There are now reports that this was a PISTON Malibu being operated VFR. Everyone's risk tolerance is different. By my personal standards this was a very risky flight. Get a good night's sleep in France and do the flight in the morning.
Re: Plane missing in the Channel
Capitalism, baby!DCWat wrote:Good to read that a janitor would be more expendable
Re: Plane missing in the Channel
That could really scupper Cardiff's survival bid.Reecey1987 wrote:All that was signed saturday he was saying his goodbyes to his friends and teamates .
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
Unfortunately and sadly, that is a very ominous statement.Reecey1987 wrote:All that was signed saturday he was saying his goodbyes to his friends and teamates .
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
Im sure its the least of all involved concern really.bfcjg wrote:That could really scupper Cardiff's survival bid.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
I didnt mean it to come across that way but thats the reason why he wasnt here earlier . Its horrible what has happendNonayforever wrote:Unfortunately and sadly, that is a very ominous statement.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
Personally, I wouldnt ever fly in one of these (or a helicopter) but especially in poor conditions.Oshkoshclaret wrote:I ran a corporate flight department that ran flights across Lake Michigan in a variety of aircraft types. No way were we sending a single engined plane over the lake at night, into known icing. And that would be with the janitor on board, never mind a high value executive. It might be legal to do it, but whether it's sensible is different matter. There are now reports that this was a PISTON Malibu being operated VFR. Everyone's risk tolerance is different. By my personal standards this was a very risky flight. Get a good night's sleep in France and do the flight in the morning.
For the sake of saving a few hours or to save flying on a flight with the general public just seems it isnt worth it. Their safety records and capability seem way less than 'normal' planes.
Are they subject to the same checks or even rules as commercial airlines? I am pretty sure helicopters arent.
Its also come out now that he said to team mates that he didnt feel safe going back on the plane after a tense flight out to nantes.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
We should definitely be speculating wildly on an Internet forum about this.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
Isn't that essentially what internet forums are for?Bertiebeehead wrote:We should definitely be speculating wildly on an Internet forum about this.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
you'd better not take a look on the aviation/pilot forums thenBertiebeehead wrote:We should definitely be speculating wildly on an Internet forum about this.
Re: Plane missing in the Channel
Link?Vegas Claret wrote:you'd better not take a look on the aviation/pilot forums then
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
In this day and age aircraft are, almost always, rather more than reliable enough to fly over the channel. IIRC, Sala was in a Piper Malibu which has a gas turbine fitted with a prop, and as such is deemed safe enough to transit shortish passages over water. It would appear he and the pilot were simply unlucky in having a failure out of range of land. It has been reported that the a/c had descended to 2300’, possibly to avoid thick cloud and icing, and this has severely compromised the gliding range. Unfortunately, with general aviation, circumstances can conspire against you and this, it would appear, is one of those occasions. I was always told, take the number of engines, divide by 2 and if you end up with a fraction don’t get on it. I haven’t been in a single engined bug smasher for over 20 years and probably never will again.thatdberight wrote:I'm no expert. He seemed to think that a single-engine plane over water wasn't a great idea and while crashing land or sea isn't any better, I understood him to be saying (rather obviously) that you would want to be over something solid you could glide down on to if there were a failure.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
BennyD wrote:In this day and age aircraft are, almost always, rather more than reliable enough to fly over the channel. IIRC, Sala was in a Piper Malibu which has a gas turbine fitted with a prop, and as such is deemed safe enough to transit shortish passages over water. It would appear he and the pilot were simply unlucky in having a failure out of range of land. It has been reported that the a/c had descended to 2300’, possibly to avoid thick cloud and icing, and this has severely compromised the gliding range. Unfortunately, with general aviation, circumstances conspire against you and this, it would appear, is one of those occasions. I was always told, take the number of engines, divide by 2 and if you end up with a fraction don’t get on it. I haven’t been in a single engined bug smasher for over 20 years and probably never will again.
According to this the pilot was at 5,000 ft and requested 2,300 ft and then contact was lost.
Source: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=220997" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Source of source: https://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.ph ... 7&start=45" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
This is certainly tragic, and yet statistically he could have met a similar fate driving from Cardiff Airport to the ground, such is the fragility of life. Enjoy what you have, while you have it, none of us ever know what is going to happen tomorrow.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
Very True.Pimlico_Claret wrote:This is certainly tragic, and yet statistically he could have met a similar fate driving from Cardiff Airport to the ground, such is the fragility of life. Enjoy what you have, while you have it, none of us ever know what is going to happen tomorrow.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
I can't find the supporting evidence sadly but I remember reading helicopters are the only mode of transport which have saved more lives than they have killed. Air Ambulance, Military Evac etc.cricketfieldclarets wrote:Personally, I wouldnt ever fly in one of these (or a helicopter) but especially in poor conditions.
For the sake of saving a few hours or to save flying on a flight with the general public just seems it isnt worth it. Their safety records and capability seem way less than 'normal' planes.
Are they subject to the same checks or even rules as commercial airlines? I am pretty sure helicopters arent.
The increased risk comes often with the role they play not necessarily the vehicle itself. A "normal" plane such as a 747 can't support a remote oil rig or provide Grand Canyon tours for example, both of which have seen fatal accidents.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
Fair enough point. Still wouldnt get me on one consciousCombatClaret wrote:I can't find the supporting evidence sadly but I remember reading helicopters are the only mode of transport which have saved more lives than they have killed. Air Ambulance, Military Evac etc.
The increased risk comes often with the role they play not necessarily the vehicle itself. A "normal" plane such as a 747 can't support a remote oil rig or provide Grand Canyon tours for example, both of which have seen fatal accidents.
Re: Plane missing in the Channel
I just hope it was quick! Being plummeted into the icy depths doesn't bear thinking about.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
OK B Acricketfieldclarets wrote:Fair enough point. Still wouldnt get me on one conscious
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
It seems pretty clear that the accident plane was N264DB, which does not have a gas turbine engine.BennyD wrote:In this day and age aircraft are, almost always, rather more than reliable enough to fly over the channel. IIRC, Sala was in a Piper Malibu which has a gas turbine fitted with a prop, and as such is deemed safe enough to transit shortish passages over water. It would appear he and the pilot were simply unlucky in having a failure out of range of land. It has been reported that the a/c had descended to 2300’, possibly to avoid thick cloud and icing, and this has severely compromised the gliding range. Unfortunately, with general aviation, circumstances can conspire against you and this, it would appear, is one of those occasions. I was always told, take the number of engines, divide by 2 and if you end up with a fraction don’t get on it. I haven’t been in a single engined bug smasher for over 20 years and probably never will again.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
Probably (hopefully) quick. Having been at the end result of a plane crash on land, they don’t usually end up in good news.BigChaCha wrote:I just hope it was quick! Being plummeted into the icy depths doesn't bear thinking about.
Re: Plane missing in the Channel
Unless there was structural damage the pilot would have ditched so i doubt it'd have been quick.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
I used to work for a company that kept track of air accidents..........you couldn't pay me to get on a helicopterCombatClaret wrote:I can't find the supporting evidence sadly but I remember reading helicopters are the only mode of transport which have saved more lives than they have killed. Air Ambulance, Military Evac etc.
The increased risk comes often with the role they play not necessarily the vehicle itself. A "normal" plane such as a 747 can't support a remote oil rig or provide Grand Canyon tours for example, both of which have seen fatal accidents.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
Let's all remain hopeful.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
If this was an engine failure/ditching the pilot had plenty of opportunity to make a Mayday call. It's more likely that he lost control in icing conditions.Test User wrote:Unless there was structural damage the pilot would have ditched so i doubt it'd have been quick.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
papers reporting he sent a whatsapp message voicing his concern about the state of the aircraft
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
An audio sent by Emiliano Sala to his friends/family moments before his plane went missing yesterday.
English Translation: "Hello brothers, how are you all? I was here in Nantes doing things and [inaudible]."
"I'm here on the airplane and it seems like it's going to fall. I'm headed towards Cardiff because tomorrow afternoon we start to train boys, we're a team."
"Let's hope and see what happens. How are you, my brothers? Everything alright?"
"If in an hour and 30min you don't hear back from me... I don't know if they're going to send someone for me because they won't find me, so you'll know."
"I'm so afraid man."
English Translation: "Hello brothers, how are you all? I was here in Nantes doing things and [inaudible]."
"I'm here on the airplane and it seems like it's going to fall. I'm headed towards Cardiff because tomorrow afternoon we start to train boys, we're a team."
"Let's hope and see what happens. How are you, my brothers? Everything alright?"
"If in an hour and 30min you don't hear back from me... I don't know if they're going to send someone for me because they won't find me, so you'll know."
"I'm so afraid man."
Re: Plane missing in the Channel
Bloody hell, that’s absolutely haunting.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
****. Imagine hearing that from a loved one
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
Terrible tragedy.
Re: Plane missing in the Channel
It looks like visibility was poor but what is the gliding range on these type of aircraft compare to a normal airliner based on normal travelling heights ? Can a normal airliner fly comfortably on one engine ?
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel
I hear the janitor values himself pretty highly.Oshkoshclaret wrote:No way were we sending a single engined plane over the lake at night, into known icing. And that would be with the janitor on board, never mind a high value executive.