Plane missing in the Channel

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by claptrappers_union » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:51 am

THEWELLERNUT70 wrote:An audio sent by Emiliano Sala to his friends/family moments before his plane went missing yesterday.

English Translation: "Hello brothers, how are you all? I was here in Nantes doing things and [inaudible]."

"I'm here on the airplane and it seems like it's going to fall. I'm headed towards Cardiff because tomorrow afternoon we start to train boys, we're a team."

"Let's hope and see what happens. How are you, my brothers? Everything alright?"

"If in an hour and 30min you don't hear back from me... I don't know if they're going to send someone for me because they won't find me, so you'll know."

"I'm so afraid man."
I suspect he was being playful. Still haunting all the same. Very sad

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by FactualFrank » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:19 am

From the BBC:
Media in Argentina reported that he said: "I'm on a plane that looks like it's going to fall apart."

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by FactualFrank » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:20 am

claptrappers_union wrote:I suspect he was being playful. Still haunting all the same. Very sad
I'm not sure how you get 'playful' from that. Especially the last couple of lines.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by MarkGreen » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:55 am

Guernsey police have tweeted and said they are prioritising the possibility that the pilot and Sala are on a life raft which was on board the plane.

It's given at least a tiny bit of hope, all though the chances of them being alive, i'd imagine are still very slim.

Source:
@GuernseyPolice - We are searching based on four possibilities:

1. They have landed elsewhere but not made contact.
2. They landed on water, have been picked up by a passing ship but not made contact
3. They landed on water and made it into the life raft we know was on board
4. The aircraft broke up on contact with the water, leaving them in the sea.

Our search area is prioritised on the life raft option.

More updates as information becomes available

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by Quickenthetempo » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:01 am

It seems he booked the plane himself not Cardiff.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by claptrappers_union » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:22 am

FactualFrank wrote:I'm not sure how you get 'playful' from that. Especially the last couple of lines.
If you're used to commercial aircrafts, which most of us are - these single engine planes can be a bit daunting when your used to the usual comforts. I once filmed inside a helicopter and the doors where so thin and the lock was like you see on toilets doors and the whole thing rattled like crazy, so much so you could see the daylight in the hinges or the doors.

I turned to the pilot and asked if this was safe, he replied 'as long you keep your seatbelt on'... which was like you'd wear on a fairground bumper car or something. I was assured it was absolutely safe an the helicopter was actually in really good nick. I don't think I'll risk it again though.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by tim_noone » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:54 am

FactualFrank wrote:I'm not sure how you get 'playful' from that. Especially the last couple of lines.
Trying to put a brave face on a terrible situation no doubt. Hope they've got lucky.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by BurnleyFC » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:10 pm

MarkGreen wrote:Guernsey police have tweeted and said they are prioritising the possibility that the pilot and Sala are on a life raft which was on board the plane.

It's given at least a tiny bit of hope, all though the chances of them being alive, i'd imagine are still very slim.

Source:
@GuernseyPolice - We are searching based on four possibilities:

1. They have landed elsewhere but not made contact.
2. They landed on water, have been picked up by a passing ship but not made contact
3. They landed on water and made it into the life raft we know was on board
4. The aircraft broke up on contact with the water, leaving them in the sea.

Our search area is prioritised on the life raft option.

More updates as information becomes available
They would automatically prioritise option 3 because if it was option 1 or 2 then they’d be alive and if it was option 4 then they’d already be dead.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by dsr » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:59 pm

I don't think there is anywhere in the Channel Isles that isn't within a quarter mile or so of a building. Apart from some uninhabited rocks that a plane could never land on.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by willsclarets » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:12 pm

It always baffles me that in our grand technological age, there isn't a way to track something like a plane when it goes down? The idea that they have to search vast areas just seems out of kilter.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by box_of_frogs » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:24 pm

civilian radars don’t see the actual plane, they see a transponder which ‘answers’ the radar. And this area probably isn’t a priority for military radars to be looking at.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by ClaretTony » Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:10 pm

Channel Islands Air have now confirmed it is now a recovery operation. A decision will be taken later today as to whether they should continue.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by ClaretDiver » Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:20 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:It seems he booked the plane himself not Cardiff.
I read it was Willie Mackay, not his agent but has links!

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by AlargeClaret » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:04 pm

Didn’t take the Sun long to buy the wattsApp messages from whoever released them .

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by Spijed » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:13 pm

For all the talk of how safe/unsafe small light aircraft are there must be hundreds of flights in and around the UK and there are very few if any crashes each year.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by BennyD » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:13 pm

Blackrod wrote:It looks like visibility was poor but what is the gliding range on these type of aircraft compare to a normal airliner based on normal travelling heights ? Can a normal airliner fly comfortably on one engine ?
Yes. It has to be certified to do so and demonstrate sufficient reliability to be certified to fly Extended Twin Ops (ETOPS) which allows twin engines aircraft to fly over large water tracts, like the North Atlantic. I would suggest the gliding range of an aircraft like the Piper Malibu from 2300’ is something like 10-12 miles at 120kts. If the pilot tried to relight the engine he may have descended at a higher speed in order to spin the prop, which would have significantly reduced the gliding range. A large passenger aircraft would be circa 100-110 miles from 35,000’ although that will depend on the weight at the time of the double engine failure.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by BennyD » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:17 pm

Oshkoshclaret wrote:It seems pretty clear that the accident plane was N264DB, which does not have a gas turbine engine.
Thanks for that, the picture I saw indicated it had a gas turbine. In that case, I suggest it was foolhardy to plan a long sea passage, at night into unknown icing conditions.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by duncandisorderly » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:35 pm

BennyD wrote:Thanks for that, the picture I saw indicated it had a gas turbine. In that case, I suggest it was foolhardy to plan a long sea passage, at night into unknown icing conditions.
Excuse my ignorance, but what do icy conditions do to a plane? On a road you could skid, on foot you could slip, but what happens in the air?

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by gsyclaret » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:42 pm

The wings ice up, here in Guernsey they often have to de-ice aircraft first thing in the morning or the flaps don't operate correctly.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by duncandisorderly » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:46 pm

gsyclaret wrote:The wings ice up, here in Guernsey they often have to de-ice aircraft first thing in the morning or the flaps don't operate correctly.

I'm trying so hard not to be inappropriate.....

Ta. I presume Guernsey has more than it's fair share of small aircraft. Ice can't be as big a consideration for your holiday jets etc?

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by gsyclaret » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:47 pm

We only have 1 jet, the rest are ATR's twin props.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by mdd2 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:52 pm

I think the icing alters the aerodynamics so the flow of air over the wings is altered so instead of a lower pressure over the top of the wing and higher under the wing causing lift the reverse occurs pushing it down. Also any moving parts of the wing may become stuck also compromising flight. Should have had deicer on it. If ice were the reason it has crashed then that is opposite of Munich

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by BennyD » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:09 pm

duncandisorderly wrote:Excuse my ignorance, but what do icy conditions do to a plane? On a road you could skid, on foot you could slip, but what happens in the air?
Icing effectively changes the shape of the wing and reduces the lift which, in extreme cases, can cause a stall and crash. It also adds drag and increases weight, neither of which helps you. Moderate to severe icing should be avoided at all costs in a single engined bug smasher.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by BennyD » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:21 pm

mdd2 wrote:I think the icing alters the aerodynamics so the flow of air over the wings is altered so instead of a lower pressure over the top of the wing and higher under the wing causing lift the reverse occurs pushing it down. Also any moving parts of the wing may become stuck also compromising flight. Should have had deicer on it. If ice were the reason it has crashed then that is opposite of Munich
Not quite; ice alters the shape and surface of the wing and that eventually breaks up the boundary layer which can cause an aerodynamic stall, which can cause a crash.
Last edited by BennyD on Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by dsr » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:43 pm

duncandisorderly wrote:Excuse my ignorance, but what do icy conditions do to a plane? On a road you could skid, on foot you could slip, but what happens in the air?
I flew back from Norway in winter once, and they spent 10 minutes spraying de-icer all over the wings to clear the ice; then the pilot still wasn't happy so they went back and sprayed some more. I think what was said earlier was right, it's the change of shape of the wings, and possibly the increased weight/change of weight distribution too.

Planes in flight - at least, large passenger jets - have de-icer built in to the wings as well - I don't know if it's liquid to pour on from outside, or whether it's an internal heating system provided by the engines. Probably the latter, because up at 40,000 feet the temperature is way down below freezing so the wings could ice up even in summer. With a commercial flight, it's the ice that builds up before take-off that is usually the worry.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by BennyD » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:54 am

Large (pertormance A) passenger aircraft usually have bleed-air anti ice systems which use hot compressed air from the engines. Smaller aircraft have either electrically heated leading edge de- icing, or pneumatic bladders which use compressed air to inflate and break off ice that has accumulated on the leading edges of the wings. However, passenger aircraft should never get airborne with anything worse than hoar frost on the upper surfaces of the wings.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by Bullabill » Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:01 am

Icing conditions not only affect wings and control surfaces, but in piston engines induction icing is a real problem. Many an engine has 'quit' because ice build-up strangles it.

Re. commercial airliners at 40,000 feet - there is no problem because there is so little moisture in the air.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by claretburns » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:05 am

duncandisorderly wrote:I'm trying so hard not to be inappropriate.....

Ta. I presume Guernsey has more than it's fair share of small aircraft. Ice can't be as big a consideration for your holiday jets etc?
A couple of years ago I was flying from Manchester on a morning of really bad snow, icy conditions etc, boarded the plane at 11:30am for a 12:05pm take off, 7 hours later we were all still sat on the plane on the runway until it was cancelled due to the ice. Apparently for the whole of Manchester airport I believe, or maybe just the terminal I was in, they only had one deicer machine to service all the planes resulting in a huge tailback of planes waiting to be serviced and our pilot simply gave up the wait and the flight was cancelled.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by claretburns » Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:39 pm

Guernsey police have confirmed the search has come to an end and no debris or bodies have been found, an awful tragedy.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by Hipper » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:37 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazine- ... erry-pilot" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is not the pilot but does show the aircraft - N264DB. What the pilot says is, shall we say, interesting.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:37 pm

Hipper wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazine- ... erry-pilot

This is not the pilot but does show the aircraft - N264DB. What the pilot says is, shall we say, interesting.
Very interesting thanks for that. I think i rather wrestle a bull though than fly in one of them.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:21 am

Story about the whole thing at the link. Also Willy McKays son who plays for cardiff arranged the flight free of charge.

Bloody tragic. Reading thia link is especially grim though.

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ume-search" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by Hipper » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:38 am

Anyone interested in professional's view of this can find it here:

https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close- ... nd-16.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In particular I suggest post 312 on page 16 and post 524 on page 27.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:54 am

It is now being reporting on the BBC about the text messages that post 524 on the above link also show.

This story is rapidly going from tragedy to farce. I have a feeling that as the truth comes out there will be some stupid decisions involved, by several people, and of course we shouldn't speculate yet what those are.

I don't know how the UK and / or the EU can regulate minor stuff, like what lightbulbs we have, without tackling things like http://www.wingly.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; which seem to operate with a very low level of regulation.

I have to travel to the Channel Islands a lot for my business, and I can get a flight using Wingly on a little one engine plane cheaper (at times) than a commercial seat on FlyMaybe. I also know pilots who have offered to fly me back and forth at times where I can't get a convenient commercial flight. One things for sure, I won't be taking any of them up on their offer.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by Dyched » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:11 pm

Had he already taken the plane from Cardiff to Nantes?

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by Blackrod » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:18 pm

Amazed it can just vanish particularly after what happened with the Malaysian Aeroplane in the Indian Ocean.

It’s also disturbing in that guardian report about the radioactive waste and military equipment dumped into the sea. Despite the plastic uproar this barely gets a mention.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by Reecey1987 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:18 pm

The family of Cardiff City footballer Emiliano Sala have confirmed a new search has started in the English Channel for the plane he was flying in. A crowdfunding campaign to help fund rescue efforts has raised more than £160,000.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:45 pm

Reecey1987 wrote:The family of Cardiff City footballer Emiliano Sala have confirmed a new search has started in the English Channel for the plane he was flying in. A crowdfunding campaign to help fund rescue efforts has raised more than £160,000.
Lets hope they find them. Even if its just for closure. Its the not knowing that will haunt them most.

What a sad, sad situation. And how foolish for a £15m footballer to be flying in that plane. Its the equivelent of Steven Defour driving back to Belgium as a passenger in a clapped out Kings taxi with no MOT.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by Burnley Ace » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:15 pm

It’s the Channel not the Pacific.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by gsyclaret » Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:52 pm

Just to clarify, where the plane supposedly came down is one of the most vicious stretches of water you will find. There has been 2 lifeboats, 2 air sea rescue helicopters and a CI air search plane looking for this plane for 3 days, I'm afraid any further searches will be recovery and not rescue unfortunately.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by BennyD » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:45 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Lets hope they find them. Even if its just for closure. Its the not knowing that will haunt them most.

What a sad, sad situation. And how foolish for a £15m footballer to be flying in that plane. Its the equivelent of Steven Defour driving back to Belgium as a passenger in a clapped out Kings taxi with no MOT.
No it isn’t, it’s nothing like it. In a clapped out Kings taxi, when the engine stops at night in the p!ssing rain, you pull in at the side of the road and get the AA out. When the engine stops in a light aircraft at night in the p!ssing rain, you haven’t time to call the AA. Personally, given the options at that time, I would have driven and that’s nothing to do with hindsight.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by Bin Ont Turf » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:21 am

gsyclaret wrote: I'm afraid any further searches will be recovery and not rescue unfortunately.
Really?

A lot of us were thinking that he might be doing the backstroke up the Bristol Channel by now.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:50 am

BennyD wrote:No it isn’t, it’s nothing like it. In a clapped out Kings taxi, when the engine stops at night in the p!ssing rain, you pull in at the side of the road and get the AA out. When the engine stops in a light aircraft at night in the p!ssing rain, you haven’t time to call the AA. Personally, given the options at that time, I would have driven and that’s nothing to do with hindsight.
You are right. I was trying to think of an extreme comparison. But even thats nothing like it.

And youre right. I too wouldve drove. Or got the train. Or both. Again not hindsight.
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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:51 am

gsyclaret wrote:Just to clarify, where the plane supposedly came down is one of the most vicious stretches of water you will find. There has been 2 lifeboats, 2 air sea rescue helicopters and a CI air search plane looking for this plane for 3 days, I'm afraid any further searches will be recovery and not rescue unfortunately.
Yep. Very true. Meant to be awful round there.

And as bad as it is whats happened. Its probably only fair to the lifeboat crew and their families that the search only takes part in the best of conditions.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by willsclarets » Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:26 am

It must be awful for the family, you'd cling to any reason they might still be alive however remote. Those chances are billions to one now, but it's human nature to hope that this story is that one in a billion. What I don't think is right, is certain football clubs, players etc pedalling the idea that the search must continue because hope shouldn't be lost. The authorities, with the best kit available, did all they could and were sensitive but honest in their appraisal of survival chances. Which amounted to hours. If this privately funded endeavour was a search predicated on the idea it would give the family closure or comfort to know they'd found a body that would be fine, but it feels a bit irresponsible and in the long run insensitive the way it's been framed.

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Re: Plane missing in the Channel

Post by Hipper » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:47 am

There may be a Burnley connection! It seems Jason Bannister, who owns Oak Furniture Land, and has sponsored BFC, owns the plane that took Sala on his earlier flights:

https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close- ... nd-36.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

post 719.

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