What would you suggest ?

[Clarets4me]

Full story here .....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -treatment

The man concerned, a foreign national who has overstayed his Visa, issued 9 years ago, has evaded the authorities but finds himself now with a terminal illness, as he is deemed ineligible due to his illegal status. His initial treatment from the NHS was provided free, but he is now being asked for £16k initially to pay for palliative care to which he is not entitled on a free basis ...

What are your thoughts ?

[box_of_frogs]

Harsh as it sounds, no money = no treatment.

[thatdberight]

Not simple so I don't have a simple answer. He'll get his care anyway, since someone will donate.

[evensteadiereddie]

While this bloke has been "evading" the authorities apparently, it would be interesting to know if he's worked and paid tax.
If he's paid tax for nine years, I wonder how far off he is from breaking even.

[Bosscat]

I refuse to comment .....

[Clarets4me]

My initial thought would be to treat him, but then pay for it out of the " Foreign Aid " budget, which has now crept up to £13.4bn ....

However, this may undermine the intention of the recent legislation, which was to ensure that people not entitled to free treatment, paid for what they received !

The doctors who seem very fond of quoting the " Hypocratic Oath ", don't seem to realise that it's not their money that's paying for such treatment but the British taxpayer's. Whither their precious oath when they're outside our hospitals with placards, asking us to beep our support for their latest industrial action ?

No simple solution, I know ....

[thatdberight]

While this bloke has been "evading" the authorities apparently, it would be interesting to know if he's worked and paid tax.
If he's paid tax for nine years, I wonder how far off he is from breaking even.

Even assuming he's paying tax etc (much less likely if you've no legitimate NI number but far from impossible) he'd be earning a lot to be that far ahead. Not that that's a way we look at healthcare or other public costs anyway. His taxes over nine years have been going meet all the public costs, not building up a fund for this.

[FactualFrank]

So his Visa ran out 9 years ago and due to no doubt incompetence, it wasn't detected. That alone should allow him to have his end-of-life care be paid for.

[thatdberight]

... due to no doubt incompetence, it wasn't detected.

You did just make this up didn't you?

[FactualFrank]

You did just make this up didn't you?

Try again.

[moaninclaret]

I wonder how many more cases like this have not been in the media, these people have abused our system and still they expect the best treatment from our wonderful, overworked NHS, someone will cough up for this guys care that wont be in doubt, more than probability the poor old taxpayer. I doubt this would happen in any other country,only good old GB.

[ClaretAndJew]

This is a few posters ideal scenario this.

[Bosscat]

Harsh as it sounds, no money = no treatment.

No I have to say what I think.....

I agree ... harsh as it sounds.

The last paragraph of the article says everything.

he says: “The doctor has said I can’t travel to Pakistan so why can’t they give a visa to my family in my last days. That’s all I want now. I’ve got two children and a wife I haven’t seen in nine years.”

If the 2 children and wife are importatant he should have been with them not here bleeding our already stretched NHS.

I know this view will upset some but, I have a friend who was refused treatment and lay on a gurney in hospital in the States until his credit card details were confirmed.

So I find it difficult to have sympathy for this person tragic as it is.

[LeadBelly]

As per 2nd comment - it sounds harsh but he's illegally in the country, why should he get free treatment when NHS is struggling to supply a service to taxpayers.
He's also complaining about his wife and 2 kids not being allowed visas to come see him when he's not seen them for 9 years. So suddenly he cares about them.
Some Guardian readers will create a fund-raising page and stump up the money maybe; they're a charitable lot.

[thatdberight]

Try again.

So, explain to me please whose incompetence this was? What lack of detection occurred?

[Clarets4me]

This is a few posters ideal scenario this.

I think it provokes certain questions about adhering to the laws of the land, on behalf of both the patient and doctors ... and also the question of who should enforce it.

[dsr]

I think he should get treatment, if only because you wouldn't treat a sick dog so badly. You would put it out of its misery (obviously not an option with a human) or treat it. You wouldn't leave it suffering unnecessarily.

But as for his plea to let his wife and children in, he has chosen to live apart from them for 9 years. Life has hard choices sometimes, and that was one of them.

[Rileybobs]

I would suggest that he is treated. Primarily because we are human beings with morals.

[taffy]

Maybe we should fund his return to Pakistan where he will get his medical attention and he can be with his family that he has obviously missed

[thatdberight]

I would suggest that he is treated. Primarily because we are human beings with morals.

That's not helpful. There are no absolutes in life and pontificating as if there are isn't a useful contribution.

[Rileybobs]

That's not helpful. There are no absolutes in life and pontificating as if there are isn't a useful contribution.

Just because you don’t agree doesn’t mean it isn’t a useful contribution. He can be treated, so he should.

[keith1879]

That's not helpful. There are no absolutes in life and pontificating as if there are isn't a useful contribution.

It was however an opinion that appeared to be stated by a considerate human being. On the whole - the kind of person who should be making the big decisions.

[thatdberight]

Just because you don’t agree doesn’t mean it isn’t a useful contribution. He can be treated, so he should.

I meant the tone. To say he should be treated is one thing; to suggest anyone who disagrees has no morals is not helpful. It's an absolute position that isn't sustainable.

[Lancasterclaret]

Threads like this bring out the ***** it has to be said

[thatdberight]

Threads like this bring out the ***** it has to be said

Threads like these pose difficult questions. They are not suited for answering on a football message board.

[keith1879]

I meant the tone. To say he should be treated is one thing; to suggest anyone who disagrees has no morals is not helpful. It's an absolute position that isn't sustainable.

He hasn't suggested such a thing at all.

[thatdberight]

He hasn't suggested such a thing at all.

That's exactly what he said, "I would suggest that he is treated. Primarily because we are human beings with morals."

He should be treated because we have morals. Ergo, and inescapably, if he were not treated, it would indicate a lack of morals.

[Lancasterclaret]

No, but they bring out the ***** either way.

Something like this to me is simple.

But I'm a human being with empathy for other human beings. That is clearly not the case for all on threads like this

[LeadBelly]

but I'm a human being with empathy for other human beings. That is clearly not the case for all on threads like this

Get your credit card out then.

[Rileybobs]

That's exactly what he said, "I would suggest that he is treated. Primarily because we are human beings with morals."

He should be treated because we have morals. Ergo, and inescapably, if he were not treated, it would indicate a lack of morals.

Not quite. As a human being with morals and a conscience I find it hard to understand how a fellow human being with morals would deny care to a dying man.

[martin_p]

Should we not treat anyone who has broken the law?

[Rileybobs]

Get your credit card out then.

Great response. My tax contribution pays towards the NHS and I’m more than comfortable with it being used to provide care for someone in the final couple of weeks of their life.

[Colburn_Claret]

I wouldn't let his wife and kids anywhere near this country, 9 years is far to long to pretend he gives a **** about them.
The sad fact is we have to treat him, not to do so would undermine all we hold precious about this country.
On a personal note I'd send the bill to the Pakistan embassy.

[Lancasterclaret]

Get your credit card out then.

See?

Like the replies people get when they show sympathy for refugees ("Go and let a few live in your house then")

I'm happy not to be a ****, and let my taxes fund this blokes treatment.

Like today, hundreds of people getting distressed (quite rightly btw) over this plane in the channel.....but not a cheep when a refugee boat overturns in the Med.

[SonofPog]

Its pretty simple, we treat him. What sort of country do we want to be anyway?

We also make plans to charge him for illegal overstay of a visa and when/if fit enough deport to his country of nationality, who will also be provided with a bill for his treatment. As would any country that had a national treated in this country.

Providing healthcare to foreign nationals is not the reason the NHS is struggling (Its still one of the best performing health services in the world btw, better than America, where they leave people on beds until your credit card has cleared.) - The fees for nationals are miniscule. Its slow underfunding.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... onals.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

50m since 2004? big whoop. As someone else has point out, we give 13billion in foreign Aid each year. Its % nothing of the NHS budget.

The current Government is filled with Private Healthcare shareholders, the Press Owners want the NHS gone. Don't believe the hype, Don't believe the spin. Support the NHS. It's bl99dy brilliant.

[AlargeClaret]

So his Visa ran out 9 years ago and due to no doubt incompetence, it wasn't detected. That alone should allow him to have his end-of-life care be paid for.

You’ve gotta fishing outstanding bellendery Frank

[thatdberight]

Not quite. As a human being with morals and a conscience I find it hard to understand how a fellow human being with morals would deny care to a dying man.

I'm not getting into this. I think this case is difficult but people who accuse others of being immoral have simply defined an arbitrary extent of morality of which they conveniently find themselves the right side. I'm done.

[Lancasterclaret]

There isn't a arbitrary morality here though is there?

Its the right thing to do to treat this bloke. Its a pretty simple one.

[Clarets4me]

Its pretty simple, we treat him. What sort of country do we want to be anyway?

We also make plans to charge him for illegal overstay of a visa and when/if fit enough deport to his country of nationality, who will also be provided with a bill for his treatment. As would any country that had a national treated in this country.

Providing healthcare to foreign nationals is not the reason the NHS is struggling (Its still one of the best performing health services in the world btw, better than America, where they leave people on beds until your credit card has cleared.) - The fees for nationals are miniscule. Its slow underfunding.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... onals.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

50m since 2004? big whoop. As someone else has point out, we give 13billion in foreign Aid each year. Its % nothing of the NHS budget.

1) They won't pay it !

2) The Daily Mail article you quote is from 2011, when such things were massively under-reported , and legislation was different. Also one third of NHS Trusts had not provided figures ...

3) NHS Trusts and GP's are not fully set up to reclaim costs even now, although London area is wising up, countless stories of Australians and Americans being told " Don't worry, it's fine ... too much trouble to do the paperwork " etc, etc ..

4) £50m is nothing ... as ever if it's someone else's money, according to the left !!

[thatdberight]

Its pretty simple, we treat him. What sort of country do we want to be anyway?

We also make plans to charge him for illegal overstay of a visa and when/if fit enough deport to his country of nationality, who will also be provided with a bill for his treatment. As would any country that had a national treated in this country.

Providing healthcare to foreign nationals is not the reason the NHS is struggling (Its still one of the best performing health services in the world btw, better than America, where they leave people on beds until your credit card has cleared.) - The fees for nationals are miniscule. Its slow underfunding.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... onals.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

50m since 2004? big whoop. As someone else has point out, we give 13billion in foreign Aid each year. Its % nothing of the NHS budget.

The current Government is filled with Private Healthcare shareholders, the Press Owners want the NHS gone. Don't believe the hype, Don't believe the spin. Support the NHS. It's bl99dy brilliant.

Not debating your points but your numbers are very significantly understated.
https://fullfact.org/health/health-tour ... -who-pays/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm not sure there is any ability to charge Pakistan for this kind of cost.

Given the fact that they're talking about palliative care for him and he's been told not to travel, I'm not sure what you mean about deporting him.

[bfcjg]

We have a National health service not an international one therefore no operation as harsh as it sounds is the law. There are only so many beds so many doctors so many operations that can be done ,there British nationals who pay for the NHS have to be prioritised. Now though he shouldn't be in pain and as alluded to earlier the foreign aid budget should be used,he's foreign and needs aid. Better spent on him then like this.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailym ... ecade.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AndrewJB]

This Illustrates the direction of nastiness this government has taken the country in. Like the elderly Iranian couple who came here legitmimately in the 70s, have three further generations living here, but got caught out by the Windrush change of law (so didn’t take up U.K. citizenship in time). Now because one of them has been diagnosed with Alzheimer’s they’re being sent back to Iran where they have no family and away from the care their family here provide. It’s sheer nastiness, but the Tories don’t do this out of cruelty. This is them chipping away at the ideal of universality, no different to what they’ve done with legal aid for example. They won’t be happy until everything is commoditised.

[martin_p]

We have a National health service not an international one therefore no operation as harsh as it sounds is the law. There are only so many beds so many doctors so many operations that can be done ,there British nationals who pay for the NHS have to be prioritised. Now though he shouldn't be in pain and as alluded to earlier the foreign aid budget should be used,he's foreign and needs aid. Better spent on him then like this.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailym ... ecade.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What about the British nationals that don’t pay for the NHS, where are they in the queue?

[bfcjg]

What about the British nationals that don’t pay for the NHS, where are they in the queue?

Like pensioners ?

[Bertiebeehead]

Burn them, burn them all.

[tim_noone]

Luke 10..25..37

[bfcjg]

Mathew 22:21

[Clarets4me]

This Illustrates the direction of nastiness this government has taken the country in. Like the elderly Iranian couple who came here legitmimately in the 70s, have three further generations living here, but got caught out by the Windrush change of law (so didn’t take up U.K. citizenship in time). Now because one of them has been diagnosed with Alzheimer’s they’re being sent back to Iran where they have no family and away from the care their family here provide. It’s sheer nastiness, but the Tories don’t do this out of cruelty. This is them chipping away at the ideal of universality, no different to what they’ve done with legal aid for example. They won’t be happy until everything is commoditised.

It's not nastiness, per se, it's a different emphasis between those of us who take personal responsibility, ensuring requirements are met, looking after our own and doing the right thing and those who expect the state to look after us whatever the situation, like certain MP's and Union Leaders who still live in state subsidised accomodation, on very generous salaries, despite being well able to move in to their own homes ...

[martin_p]

Like pensioners ?

Like anyone who doesn’t pay into the system.

[tim_noone]

Mathew 22:21

I'll choose the fence.