No Sam Vokes ?

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Devils_Advocate
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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:18 pm

ClaretShaun wrote:So Burnley are looking for a 3rd/4th striker for our bench....

And a British target man in his late 20s with a PL goal ratio of 1 every 2 starts plus regular 20 goal seasons in the division below crops up as available. He slides into the salary structure fine and carries heavy international expererience. We sign him for £9m. A steal.
How many goals did Vokes score in his 37 starts cos if your going to conveniently discount his appearances as a sub you should also discount his goals scored as a sub too.

Vokes is never worth £18m and if we get £9m then we've done well for a player who just isnt up to Premier League standard anymore (if he ever was). Also we are not looking for a 3rd or 4th choice striker to sit on our bench we should be looking for one who can potential improve on Barnes and Wood and as a minimum be genuine competition for a starting place

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Prefeot » Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:36 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:How many goals did Vokes score in his 37 starts cos if your going to conveniently discount his appearances as a sub you should also discount his goals scored as a sub too.

Vokes is never worth £18m and if we get £9m then we've done well for a player who just isnt up to Premier League standard anymore (if he ever was). Also we are not looking for a 3rd or 4th choice striker to sit on our bench we should be looking for one who can potential improve on Barnes and Wood and as a minimum be genuine competition for a starting place
I couldn’t agree less. Vokes epitomises the way Burnley play and he has been a great servant to the club. He has proven his premier league (and international) credentials and I always feel comfortable when he’s in the starting line up. He always puts in a shift (minimum expectation is maximum effort ) and is often let down by those around him. I hope he stays.
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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by FactualFrank » Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:40 pm

Prefeot wrote:I couldn’t agree less. Vokes epitomises the way Burnley play and he has been a great servant to the club. He has proven his premier league (and international) credentials and I always feel comfortable when he’s in the starting line up. He always puts in a shift (minimum expectation is maximum effort ) and is often let down by those around him. I hope he stays.
How can he be the perfect example of how Burnley play, when we keep losing? We lack 95% when he plays.

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by BurnleyFC » Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:22 pm

I’d be sorry to see Vokes leave. I think at times this season he’s offered far more than Wood and his chance will come again.

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Long Time Lurker » Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:28 pm

I would be upset to see Sam leave us as part of a move to facilitate a new incoming. However, if it is his choice to leave then it is a very different matter. After his contributions to our club over the years it would be unfair to stand in his way if that is what he wants.

If his departure is linked to our rumoured interest in Janssen for £15m I would be truly gutted. Tottenham have already received £2m in a previous loan fee so another £15m would amount to everything that they paid for him, which would be fantastic business for them.

Granted, prices have risen during the years since they bought him, but he is also 2 years older now and they paid that amount on the basis of potential that he has so far failed to live up to. Tottenham would laugh all the way to the bank if we shelled out £15m for him. At the moment he isn't worth anywhere near that, which is probably why nobody else is remotely interested in him.

He had one really good season in the "we don't defend Eredivise" and his seven international goals have been largely against weak teams, mainly in friendlies. He isn't particularly quick, although his good movement in the box often hides that, he seems to have forgotten how to finish and while he has the strength to cope with the Eredivise lightweights it's a different matter when it comes to holding up the more robust EPL defenders.

We obviously haven't worked out how to get the best from Vydra and I'm not sure that we have the time to figure out how to use another new striker this season. Vydra looked rusty in the last match, and hopelessly alone up front on his own, how will he have a chance to step up and progress if we bump him further down the pecking order?

Selling Sam for £9m and throwing another £6m on top of it for Janssen is a lot for a player that could turn out to be a more expensive Hennings. If that is our big January plan then I would have preferred to see us keep Sam until the end of the season and spend £5.5m on punts like Josh Maja and Karlan Grant. That would have at least spread the risk around a bit and caused less dressing room upheaval at a delicate time.

I wouldn't rule out Janssen completely as a signing, but I would only be comfortable if we paid a lot less than £15m for him. Even in the hyper inflated market of today you can get a lot for £15m if it is spent it wisely. If we want to spend money on an international CF with a slightly dubious injury record and a stalled career we could probably pick up Josip Drmic for £2-3m which is a more respectable price for a "hope he comes good" signing.

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Jakubs Tash » Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:05 pm

Long Time Lurker wrote:I would be upset to see Sam leave us as part of a move to facilitate a new incoming. However, if it is his choice to leave then it is a very different matter. After his contributions to our club over the years it would be unfair to stand in his way if that is what he wants.
So, you wouldn't want Sam Vokes to be sold so we could replace him with a better player? You don't want Burnley to move forward and keep improving? Just keep giving new contracts worth thousands of pounds a week to a player whose better days are behind him?
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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by jurek » Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:13 pm

If Sam is to go then I'm presuming it's because he's said he'd like more game time
and the Championship is the best place for him to get that.
And we don't want to stand in his way and 9m or whatever we get is the most we're likely to get for him.

I'm also presuming that if he we did let him go then we'd have to replace him
as we'd be short on strikers and it would be extreme folly to leave us short.
Whether it be Janssen or some one else they would have to be as good
if not better than Sam otherwise there wouldn't be much point.

I can't recall now whether we've played Vydra with Wood up front but that
maybe oor only option especially if Barnes got injured.

But given Vydra doesn't look as if he can make much impact and/or Dyche isn't
certain he can make it at this level then we either need to keep Sam or ensure we get someone in
whose better.

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by ontario claret » Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:16 pm

No to Sam Vokes. He wouldn't have made a difference today. He's too slow and only scores (usually) against lower class opposition (like Chelsea).

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Steve-Harpers-perm » Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:16 pm

Jakubs Tash wrote:So, you wouldn't want Sam Vokes to be sold so we could replace him with a better player? You don't want Burnley to move forward and keep improving? Just keep giving new contracts worth thousands of pounds a week to a player whose better days are behind him?
At least a 6 paragraph reply I’d say...........
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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Long Time Lurker » Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:38 pm

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote:At least a 6 paragraph reply I’d say...........
Do I want to see us moving forward and improving? Definitely

If Sam wants to leave to get more game time should we stand in his way? No

Is £10m+ a good price for Sam? Yes

Is Janssen a lot better? No

Is £15m a lot to pay for Janssen? Definitely

Could we get a lot better with more time to look? Yes

Should we wait until Summer to spend big on a striker? Yes

Would £2-3M be a good price for Josip Drmic who can play on the wing? Yes

Should we have been in for Josh Maja at £3.5m? Yes

Should we have been in for Karlan Grant at £2m? Yes

Is Sam Lammers worth keeping an eye on? Yes

Are PSV Eindhoven likely to sell him? Probably not

Phew ....... 12 paragraphs on strikers :)

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Jakubs Tash » Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:43 pm

Long Time Lurker wrote:Do I want to see us moving forward and improving? Definitely

If Sam wants to leave to get more game time should we stand in his way? No

Is £10m+ a good price for Sam? Yes

Is Janssen a lot better? No

Is £15m a lot to pay for Janssen? Definitely

Could we get a lot better with more time to look? Yes

Should we wait until Summer to spend big on a striker? Yes

Would £2-3M be a good price for Josip Drmic who can play on the wing? Yes

Should we have been in for Josh Maja at £3.5m? Yes

Should we have been in for Karlan Grant at £2m? Yes

Is Sam Lammers worth keeping an eye on? Yes

Are PSV Eindhoven likely to sell him? Probably not

Phew ....... 12 paragraphs on strikers :)
I thought this thread was about Sam Vokes potentially leaving? Nobody else has mentioned anything about Janssen,Drmic, Maja, Grant or Lammers.... It's like you're having your very own game of Mallets Mallet in your head as you type.

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Long Time Lurker » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:12 pm

Jakubs Tash wrote:I thought this thread was about Sam Vokes potentially leaving? Nobody else has mentioned anything about Janssen,Drmic, Maja, Grant or Lammers.... It's like you're having your very own game of Mallets Mallet in your head as you type.
Okay, maybe I jumped the gun a bit or went a little bit off track.

However, if Sam is potentially leaving then surely the question of who are we going to bring in as a replacement, or who should we have brought in if we knew it was on the cards, has a little bit to do with the situation.

Unless you fancy seeing out the season with three first team strikers at the club.

If we aren't already well down the road to securing a suitable replacement, selling Sam with only four days left in this window would be complete madness.
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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Jakubs Tash » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:30 pm

Long Time Lurker wrote:Okay, maybe I jumped the gun a bit or went a little bit off track.

However, if Sam is potentially leaving then surely the question of who are we going to bring in as a replacement, or who should we have brought in if we knew it was on the cards, has a little bit to do with the situation.

Unless you fancy seeing out the season with three first team strikers at the club.

If we aren't already well down the road to securing a suitable replacement, selling Sam with only four days left in this window would be complete madness.
No, I agree that Vokes will not leave without a replacement. However, as other people have alluded to, transfers are player trading and sometimes it's about knowing when is best to cash in on some of our own players and move things forward.

Vokes has been beyond brilliant for Burnley but we need to keep improving our options - particularly in the final 3rd where the manager himself has cited we need to improve on numerous occasions this season.

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Stayingup » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:27 pm

warksclaret wrote:BFC is first and foremost a business. As a result there is a right time to buy and sell a player. We cannot live on emotion, and now is definitely the time to consider offers for this great servant. We know the January window leads to panic buying pushing values up-right now there will be a few Championship sides either in the running to stay in the top six wanting to strengthen their chances of staying there, or a club that's slipped but in a small way going to bet the ranch to catapult themselves into the play-off zone. Lets cash in.

What this will do is force the Board to make another purchase-we only have two serious strikers in Barnes/Wood-another in Vydra where the jury is still out, and Wells and Walters as good as gone. Not even BFC can operate with such a small band of strikers

If £9m is being banded then it potentially puts us in a far better position to go for pace, quality and a proven record. Lets not go the budget route though, or for players in their twilight years-our record of buying strikers since Eddy Howe went has not been brilliant
I dont know about your comment on our record on strikers. I thought Gray was very good for us and added pace we havent got now. I know he was limited but put the ball in front of him.near the goal and he invariable scored.

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Prefeot » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:37 pm

FactualFrank wrote:How can he be the perfect example of how Burnley play, when we keep losing? We lack 95% when he plays.
The last few games or the last few seasons? He’s playing in a very poor burnley team at the moment but hey let’s not get your made up stats (95%lol) get in the way of facts
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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:46 pm

Club legend. Grafter. Scorer of vital goals. And brings something nobody else does - in both boxes.

Will be gutted to lose him. But yesterday suggests he is off. And he goes with everyones blessing if he does. One of my favourite ever clarets.
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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Vegas Claret » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:19 pm

if Vokes does want to leave I would be amazed if only Stoke came in for him - I suggest a bidding war to push the fee up !

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Bin Ont Turf » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:23 pm

Vegas Claret wrote:if Vokes does want to leave I would be amazed if only Stoke came in for him - I suggest a bidding war to push the fee up !
There won't be a bidding war for Sam Vokes.

If (big if) Stoke are offering £9 million, then we should snap their hands off.

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Dazzler » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:06 am

Vegas Claret wrote:if Vokes does want to leave I would be amazed if only Stoke came in for him - I suggest a bidding war to push the fee up !
So he will be sold like a commodity & we accept the highest bid & that's where he goes without a whimper ?

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Vegas Claret » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:00 am

Bin Ont Turf wrote:There won't be a bidding war for Sam Vokes.

If (big if) Stoke are offering £9 million, then we should snap their hands off.
ya think ? Sheff Weds are asking 14 million for Forestierri and Vokes is worth way more imho
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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Vegas Claret » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:01 am

Dazzler wrote:So he will be sold like a commodity & we accept the highest bid & that's where he goes without a whimper ?
100%

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Dazzler » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:29 am

Vegas Claret wrote:100%
So after 6 & half years of service the club should give no consideration to Vokes as to where he would prefer to ply his trade next ?

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by mdd2 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:22 am

Dazzler wrote:So after 6 & half years of service the club should give no consideration to Vokes as to where he would prefer to ply his trade next ?
He is under contract so he goes where he wants if we are happy for that. Sam has most of the cards-as he can go if/when he wants as we all know a player under contract just has to stop playing become disruptive to get away. BFC can only stop a move if it is not in their interest but cannot sell him to Stoke for £x million of he wants to go to Accrington for £x-y million. Of course we could then decide to keep him on if we value him more than £x-y million

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Dazzler » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:43 am

mdd2 wrote:He is under contract so he goes where he wants if we are happy for that. Sam has most of the cards-as he can go if/when he wants as we all know a player under contract just has to stop playing become disruptive to get away. BFC can only stop a move if it is not in their interest but cannot sell him to Stoke for £x million of he wants to go to Accrington for £x-y million. Of course we could then decide to keep him on if we value him more than £x-y million
You don't have to lecture me on a players rights,,,It's folk like Vegas Claret who think players should be treat like sheep.

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by mybloodisclaret » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:02 am

Vegas Claret wrote:ya think ? Sheff Weds are asking 14 million for Forestierri and Vokes is worth way more imho
14 mill for Forestieri? Top bantz that from the Owls. Good on em.

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by tiger76 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:06 am

Vegas Claret wrote:ya think ? Sheff Weds are asking 14 million for Forestierri and Vokes is worth way more imho
They can ask 14 million doesn't mean clubs will pay that.

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Hedontplayforyou » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:14 am

Is there actually any substance in Vokes to Stoke or is this all just nonsense?

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Quickenthetempo » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:16 am

So Vokes goes to Stoke and becomes the championship top scorer/best player and we buy him back for £15m in 6 months times.

I can put up with that.

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:19 am

Like everyone else, I can see why we might sell Vokes, but I'd want to know who the replacement is first.

If its JayRod, then its an upgrade surely?

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by expoultryboy » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:21 am

Straight swop for allen

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by FactualFrank » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:29 am

Prefeot wrote:The last few games or the last few seasons? He’s playing in a very poor burnley team at the moment but hey let’s not get your made up stats (95%lol) get in the way of facts
Yes - because when I said 95% I meant it literally as a definite stat. Thick and duck plucker's wick spring to mind.
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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Jakubs Tash » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:31 am

Prefeot wrote:He’s playing in a very poor burnley team at the moment....
I give up....
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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by wilks_bfc » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:48 am

Hedontplayforyou wrote:Is there actually any substance in Vokes to Stoke or is this all just nonsense?
It was in the Sun & Mail over the weekend......




......so no

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:07 am

expoultryboy wrote:Straight swop for allen
Allen deal is still close. Don't tell anyone i told you though. :?

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Grumps » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:12 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Like everyone else, I can see why we might sell Vokes, but I'd want to know who the replacement is first.

If its JayRod, then its an upgrade surely?
Is that the same Jay rod who's said he's not moving!?

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Mala591 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:04 pm

My prediction - Vokes plus £5 million for Allen dependent on us signing a replacement forward first. The 'replacement' forward might be a surprise to us all ?!?

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by WestMidsClaret » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:07 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Allen deal is still close. Don't tell anyone i told you though. :?
Woody?
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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by FactualFrank » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:08 pm

WestMidsClaret wrote:Woody?
If paid enough I'm sure he would.
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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by WestMidsClaret » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:14 pm

FactualFrank wrote:If paid enough I'm sure he would.
Should it not be "If paid enough I'm sure he Wood"?!

:D

The universe is about to explode.
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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Spijed » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:18 pm

wilks_bfc wrote:It was in the Sun & Mail over the weekend......
......so no
Depends if the story in the Sun was written by Alan Nixon

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by FactualFrank » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:20 pm

WestMidsClaret wrote:Should it not be "If paid enough I'm sure he Wood"?!
That would have confused too many people who didn't get it. I didn't want to take it too far.
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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Bin Ont Turf » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:58 pm

Vegas Claret wrote:ya think ?
Yes.

We all like a bit of Sam Vokes, but when all said and done, he's still Sam Vokes.

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by TheFamilyCat » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:07 pm

Hedontplayforyou wrote:Is there actually any substance in Vokes to Stoke or is this all just nonsense?
Dunno but it’s fun that it rhymes.

Ward to Bradford

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by LoveCurryPies » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:12 pm

Vokes to Portsmouth? :shock: Nixon tweeting Portsmouth are close to making an announcement.

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by taio » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:32 pm

LoveCurryPies wrote:Vokes to Portsmouth? :shock: Nixon tweeting Portsmouth are close to making an announcement.
Why the hell would he go there.

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by randomclaret2 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:34 pm

Theyve signed Omar Bogle on loan

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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by ClaretAndJew » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:34 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:Dunno but it’s fun that it rhymes.

Ward to Bradford
You pronounce Bradford like Ward?

claretspice
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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by claretspice » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:35 pm

I completely get the argument that we need to "progress" and improve the team. My doubts about jettisoning Vokes are based on two things.

1. I think he performs better for him than the narrative here suggests. I'm pretty sure his goals to minutes on the pitch ratio is better than the equivalent of a goal every 3 games, which is pretty damn good for a player who hasn't always had a run of games. I think it does him a disservice to suggest he's just a player who is good in the air - in fact, I think his all-round game with the ball at his feet has more subtlety than either Barnes or Wood (which is where I disagree with Frank's argument Wood can do everything Vokes can do - he's not as good at linking the play with his back to goal). He's also got an especially decent record as a substitute, and players who can come on cold and make an impact have a particular value. So I agree with those saying its a massive assumption to presume we can easily upgrade on him.

2. I think all the evidence suggests that those versions of clubs like Burnley who have lasted the longest in the Premier League are those who keep together their original core of players for longest. No coincidence that all 3 of the clubs who went last season were clubs where that original core had come to the end of the line/been moved on. I firmly believe that the longer we retain a core built around Heaton, Mee, Barnes and Vokes within the squad, the longer we will set ourselves up to stay in the Premier League. Of course, we should be bringing in better players too, to improve the quality - but it's often going to be better to retain those core players, and bring in players to fill in the gaps around them. Of course there will come a time when we have to manage the transition to younger players as those core players come to the end of their lifespan, but at 29 Vokes doesn't fit into that category. I think we've missed Arfield this season not only as an underrated player, but also as part of that original core. It's for the same reason I think it's no coincidence we've seen an upturn in the last month since Heaton re-established himself as the bedrock of our team - and by extension our culture.

Easy to underestimate both the quality we've already got, and the importance of the culture within the squad and the core of original Dyche players who established it.

Walt
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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by Walt » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:50 pm

Nixon saying we're interested in Che Adams

TheFamilyCat
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Re: No Sam Vokes ?

Post by TheFamilyCat » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:57 pm

ClaretAndJew wrote:You pronounce Bradford like Ward?
Yes, i’m Incredibly posh.

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