ARTICLE: We know the bigger picture

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:12 pm

Pep Guardiola & Sean Dyche on today's game

See link
http://www.uptheclarets.com/we-know-the-bigger-picture" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:22 pm

I think its a fair summary TBH.

Longside4evr · Post by **Longside4evr** » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:22 pm

I just hope it all pays dividends at the end of the season
We have a bigger picture to paint but lets hope it hangs on a gallery wall when finished and doesn't end up on the flea market

Burnleyareback2 · Post by **Burnleyareback2** » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:46 pm

Good summary, but why are we not targeting balls to Dwight?

He is the only player that has some magic about him now and we are setting our team up to use the other wing.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:49 pm

The bigger picture is that fans will only put up with playing for 17th at the expense of all else for so long.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:52 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:The bigger picture is that fans will only put up with playing for 17th at the expense of all else for so long.

No the bigger picture is Premier League over the cup.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:57 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:The bigger picture is that fans will only put up with playing for 17th at the expense of all else for so long.

Nice of you to presume to speak for all Burnley fans but I suspect that's untrue. Seventeenth buys us more potential for success (like, I dunno, finishing seventh the next year) than we'll ever achieve while marauding in the Championship.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:59 pm

Spiral wrote:Nice of you to presume to speak for all Burnley fans but I suspect that's untrue. Seventeenth buys us more potential for success (like, I dunno, finishing seventh the next year) than we'll ever achieve while marauding in the Championship.

I think he's one of the fans who preferred us going further in the Europa, even if it meant relegation.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:05 am

We were never going to win the sodding thing so what's the point?

'Aye, sonny, harken unto me of the time we were beaten 3-1 on aggregate in the Europa League ("what's that, Dad?") round of 32 tie against Dinamo Zagreb ("who's that, Dad?"). It cost us our league status and now we're travelling do Doncaster this weekend, but it was glorious, boy. Glorious.

Silkyskills1 · Post by **Silkyskills1** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:08 am

A bit concerned over us putting together 'patched up' sides. Two key games coming up that will require more than a 'make do and mend'. And then there are more games to come after that.

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:12 am

Tbh the prospect of staying in the Prem simply for the sake of it and to boost the balance sheet bores me to tears. I'd rather have a go in the Cups and risk relegation. Not that I agree with the theory that having a good cup run would automatically result in relegation.

Goobs · Post by **Goobs** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:12 am

I honestly never thought I would say this but yes I would rather we prioritise the league and would be happy to continue to play for survival above the cups for as long as we are successful at doing it.

I love seeing us being at the top table going up against some of the best teams and players in the world, even if it does mean the occasional beating or disappointing run.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:18 am

FactualFrank wrote:I think he's one of the fans who preferred us going further in the Europa, even if it meant relegation.

It doesnt have to be exclusively one or the other. But for arguments sake say it is. Id sooner win the league cup and go down, than constantly aim for 17th. Never mind the europa!

Cirrus_Minor · Post by **Cirrus_Minor** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:18 am

I think Man city can destroy most clubs, including those in champions league. Having a weakened squad and putting the 2nd tier out against them was always bound to end in tears.

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:18 am

FactualFrank wrote:I think he's one of the fans who preferred us going further in the Europa, even if it meant relegation.

Is that fact or fiction?

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:22 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:It doesnt have to be exclusively one or the other. But for arguments sake say it is. Id sooner win the league cup and go down, than constantly aim for 17th. Never mind the europa!

It doesn't, you're right, but what I said was ultimately correct. That you'd rather win a cup and we be relegated. Which I find very surprising. Staying up makes the club a hell of a lot of money. Getting to a final is brilliant for the fans, of course, but staying up makes us a much more dominant force. We go down? Could be down for 50 years.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:23 am

tim_noone wrote:Is that fact or fiction?

Way over your head, this one.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:25 am

Looking at the winners from the last 30 years, the FA cup is at best glitter on a league title, at worst, a consolation prize for not winning the league. Outside of the current top six riches clubs, in those 30 years only Wigan (relegated that season), Portsmouth (literally went bankrupt), and Everton (oh, they won it, did they?) have won the FA cup. For clubs like us (not great, but not tin-pot, either) it's a pointless competition and it's about as romantic as a chippy tea on a kerb with your missus.

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:30 am

tim_noone wrote:Is that fact or fiction?

FACT... and one that he's just conceded.

Keep up, Tim Loon.

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:35 am

fidelcastro wrote:FACT... and one that he's just conceded.

Keep up, Tim Loon.

Yes I know I'm sat right next to him..

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:39 am

tim_noone wrote:Yes I know I'm sat right next to him..

But you don't speak?

Interesting.

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:41 am

fidelcastro wrote:But you don't speak?

Interesting.

Not really.....he's asleep.

Vintage Claret · Post by **Vintage Claret** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:10 am

Sadly, I think we all get the bigger picture and for me
it's the reason I'll not waste any more time or money travelling anywhere to watch us 'compete' in any cup competitions.

Not while we're struggling to stay in the "best league in the world" that is.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:18 am

Vintage Claret wrote:Sadly, I think we all get the bigger picture and for me
it's the reason I'll not waste any more time or money travelling anywhere to watch us 'compete' in any cup competitions

A good job as I think we're out of them all?

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:24 am

Dyche is just saying it as it is.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:25 am

South West Claret. wrote:Dyche is just saying it as it is.

I agree.

ClaretLoup · Post by **ClaretLoup** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:39 am

I am beginning to wonder about Sean's cup strategy. Remember the amazing self belief that Coyle's League Cup run gave the 2009 promotion team? Also the important psychological boost that beating reigning champions Chelsea away last season gave the team for the rest of the season? Maybe if Burnley had gone to City and taken them on it might have had the same effect even if they lost.

Instead they went there and committed one foul in the 90 minutes, Long's dumbass foul that gave away the penalty. Just to go there and roll over something to nil can't be good for the players self esteem and confidence can it?

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:49 am

If our players were deluded enough to think they could progress or even win the cup, then yes, this is a hit to their self esteem. I suspect they are more focused on that which actually matters, though. Personally, I don't think professional football players are the pussies some make them out to be. We've gone beyond the tin-pot notion of needing 'the spirit of the cup' to do owt notable because we actually have some decent footballers playing for us these days.

Burnley1989 · Post by **Burnley1989** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:37 am

Spiral wrote:We were never going to win the sodding thing so what's the point?

'Aye, sonny, harken unto me of the time we were beaten 3-1 on aggregate in the Europa League ("what's that, Dad?") round of 32 tie against Dinamo Zagreb ("who's that, Dad?"). It cost us our league status and now we're travelling do Doncaster this weekend, but it was glorious, boy. Glorious.

Crack me up, I could have predicted this thread!

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:14 am

I couldn't give a toss about any cup competition until we get firmly established in the PL (doubt that will happen), we might one year have a cup run and get to the final where we will be battered 5-0 by Man City - I'd rather we didn't bother and try and make progress in playing style and league position

ashtonlongsider · Post by **ashtonlongsider** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:56 am

Nobody really expected us to get anything out of the game, me included. However, I personally expected a far better performance than what we got. There certainly wasn't enough energy, or all round awareness from the team collectively. No closing down opposition quickly, giving quality players acres of space is criminal. No tracking runners, especially into dangerous areas. We showed far too much respect to the opposition. The only way you have a chance against a robotic team like City is to get in there faces. The only player to come out with any credit for me is our least experience player Dwight McNeil, who did show some quality and composure at times.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:29 am

Spiral wrote:We were never going to win the sodding thing so what's the point?

A very fair argument.

As long as you have never felt a warm glow when watching clips or listening to stories of our 1960s European campaigns, or FA Cup final loss.

Personally. I think that’s what makes us Burnley, rather than, say, Stoke. It means something. We’ll never look back on this era with that same fondness.

Fernandinho has played 2400 minutes this season, Cork has played less than 2000 including Europe. Why was he rested yesterday? It’s nothing to do with the depth of City’s squad. It doesn’t wash with me.

EarbyClaret · Post by **EarbyClaret** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:29 am

As referenced above the FA Cup in it's current format is meaningless to all but the top six or PL clubs (who could, if they wanted, field two teams of relatively equal strength) and most in the Championship.

It's about teams who can take it seriously without it making an impact on their priorities or lower league clubs making a financial windfall.

A full-strength team playing to it's maximum potential would have lost yesterday. We have two huge games this week that has to be the priority. Players coming back from injury and suspension got a decent risk-free workout.

Of course we can all look back fondly on excellent achievements in cup competitions in the 1960s but that was a different game, effectively a different sport.

As for comparing the workload on City's players with ours. How much time do they spend in control of possession and the game - how much time and energy do our players expend chasing both.

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:10 am

Why, time and time again do people think you get relegated for trying to win a cup game?

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:36 am

Dyched wrote:Why, time and time again do people think you get relegated for trying to win a cup game?

I’m sure you can work the answer out yourself

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:04 am

Dyched wrote:Why, time and time again do people think you get relegated for trying to win a cup game?

Because it happened to Wigan once so it must mean you automatically get relegated if you reach at least the semis.

Dy1geo · Post by **Dy1geo** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:17 am

In reality City are on another level and they could pick two teams that would probably finish above us in the Prem that’s why I have no issue over the team Dyche fielded yesterday however if we had drawn a lower team at home he probably would have fielded the same team.
Eventually we will drop out of the Prem and I would like to think by the end of that time we would have “gone deep” in one of the cups whilst we had our strongest squad.

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:50 am

FactualFrank wrote:It doesn't, you're right, but what I said was ultimately correct. That you'd rather win a cup and we be relegated. Which I find very surprising. Staying up makes the club a hell of a lot of money. Getting to a final is brilliant for the fans, of course, but staying up makes us a much more dominant force. We go down? Could be down for 50 years.

But making a lot more money brings us what? The team has not pushed on since last season. Is weaker in my opion. ALL THIS MONEY but we cant or dont seem.to be able to afford players who would improve us - immediately. We have bought three since the end of last season and not one is first choice. It is good to.have money on that I totally agree. A new training facility bears witness to that. But given the wealth of many Premier league teams - earned or given - our wealth by comparison is insignificant. Worse, games like yesterday are just not enjoyable.

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:15 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:It doesnt have to be exclusively one or the other. But for arguments sake say it is. Id sooner win the league cup and go down, than constantly aim for 17th. Never mind the europa!

You make your own argument look silly by using the phrase “ constantly aim for 17th”.

I am pretty sure we set out each season to finish as high up the league as possible.

Longsidelenny · Post by **Longsidelenny** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:29 pm

I thought city was very lucky yesterday poor mistakes from us cost us dearly bring on money Utd Tuesday now that’s a game that matters not the poxy fa cup which nobody cares about anymore very sad that what sky have done to the fa cup all about getting and staying in the premiership

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:35 pm

Vintage Claret wrote:Sadly, I think we all get the bigger picture and for me
it's the reason I'll not waste any more time or money travelling anywhere to watch us 'compete' in any cup competitions.

Not while we're struggling to stay in the "best league in the world" that is.

Don't say that too loudly, they'll be some folk along soon to tell you, you aren't a proper fan.

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:38 pm

Longsidelenny wrote:I thought city was very lucky yesterday poor mistakes from us cost us dearly

Aye... five lucky breakaways!

Royboyclaret · Post by **Royboyclaret** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:41 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:A very fair argument.

As long as you have never felt a warm glow when watching clips or listening to stories of our 1960s European campaigns, or FA Cup final loss.

Personally. I think that’s what makes us Burnley, rather than, say, Stoke. It means something. We’ll never look back on this era with that same fondness.

Fernandinho has played 2400 minutes this season, Cork has played less than 2000 including Europe. Why was he rested yesterday? It’s nothing to do with the depth of City’s squad. It doesn’t wash with me.

Superb post, Crosspool.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:46 pm

Longsidelenny wrote:I thought city was very lucky yesterday poor mistakes from us cost us dearly bring on money Utd Tuesday now that’s a game that matters not the poxy fa cup which nobody cares about anymore very sad that what sky have done to the fa cup all about getting and staying in the premiership

I think their 75% possession, pressurising our defence and incisive passing caused us to make the mistakes.

I am a bit concerned at how we as a club have decided there are certain clubs with which we can't compete. It's hardly the positive Dyche-type mantra

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:48 pm

IMO we should have stuck to our most successful 4-4-2 formation with our squad players (yes I agree that it was right to give them a chance of impressing) stepping into their best positions (with the exception of Tarkowski).

Pope
Tarks Long Gibson Ward
Hendrick Defour Westwood Brady
Barnes Vydra

We wouldn't have won but it would have been a better performance and we might have just got two or three shots on target!

Bin Ont Turf · Post by **Bin Ont Turf** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:57 pm

You have to wonder when we will take the cups seriously. When we are comfortably mid table in the Championship, or in League 1?

There's nearly always going to be an excuse. The Premier League is the priority, promotion to the Premier League is the priority, avoiding relegation from the Championship is the priority etc.

Royboyclaret · Post by **Royboyclaret** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:08 pm

Bin Ont Turf wrote:You have to wonder when we will take the cups seriously. When we are comfortably mid table in the Championship, or in League 1?

There's nearly always going to be an excuse. The Premier League is the priority, promotion to the Premier League is the priority, avoiding relegation from the Championship is the priority etc.

Certainly not whilst we're in the Premier League, BOT.

But, unlike most on here, I don't believe it's any decision down to Dyche. He's merely an employee at the Club.

Nobody is telling me that humiliating defeats against Lincoln, Burton, Port Vale and Accrington are something that he would actually choose to have on his CV.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:13 pm

Royboyclaret wrote:Certainly not whilst we're in the Premier League, BOT.

But, unlike most on here, I don't believe it's any decision down to Dyche. He's merely an employee at the Club.

Nobody is telling me that humiliating defeats against Lincoln, Burton, Port Vale and Accrington are something that he would actually choose to have on his CV.

But do you really believe Mike Garlick asks him to play a weakened team in the cup competitions?

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:14 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:A very fair argument.

As long as you have never felt a warm glow when watching clips or listening to stories of our 1960s European campaigns, or FA Cup final loss.

Personally. I think that’s what makes us Burnley, rather than, say, Stoke. It means something. We’ll never look back on this era with that same fondness.

Fernandinho has played 2400 minutes this season, Cork has played less than 2000 including Europe. Why was he rested yesterday? It’s nothing to do with the depth of City’s squad. It doesn’t wash with me.

Lamenting a bygone era when things were different doesn't help us yesterday, though. You're railing against the increasingly rigid laws of football gravity there rather than anything else. As others have said, these days over 6 knockout rounds the big boys invariably win out, and given the identity of the team that have beaten us in the FA cup in each of the last two seasons its hardly fair to slate Dyche for our record in the competition.

There are times for taking cups seriously (I would have liked us to commit a bit more to the Europa League earlier in the season for example), but the reality is that there are also times these days when they the cups have to be parked to one side. Realistically, a season when you've ended up in a relegation battle and have a bit of an injury pile up is one of those occasions - especially when the luck of the draw gives you a vanishingly small chance of getting through the immediate tie, let alone going on to win the cup. Last season might well have been a season for having more of a go - except that we got the same rotten draw and predictably lost despite giving it a good go and putting out a strong side.

The difference for Fernandinho, by the way, is that playing at the base of midfield in a top side that dominates the ball and dictates matches involves a good deal less exertion than doing precisely the opposite, and for City yesterday obviously wasn't the first of two back to back away games within 4 days against two of the best sides in the league (on form, 2 of the top 3), before a huge home game against a direct rival next Saturday.

Yesterday was never realistically our priority. We can all quibble the finer points of team selection, but surely no one can seriously suggest that Dyche wasn't right to prioritise the league given all the context.

Bin Ont Turf · Post by **Bin Ont Turf** » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:15 pm

He's picking the team though Royboy.

3 centre backs on the pitch, Taylor at right back, Defour and Hendrick as a midfield 2, Vydra up front on his own.

It was only going to end one way (yes I know that it was Man City).