Bercow - a chance to go down in history
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
https://order-order.com/2018/10/19/back ... sers-vote/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
EU funded sock puppet organisations are taking to twitter to promote yet another coalescing of Britain’s most die hard, no doubt beret-clad remainiacs in the heart of metropolitan London. The (Losers)’Peoples’ Vote campaign is holding another winge-a-thon walk through the capital tomorrow.
European Alternatives was handed €300,000 by the EU
And the European Movement was given €350,000.
Last week the European Parliament proposedspending an extra billion Euros to go to organisations which promote “a greater sense of belonging to the Union.” Your taxes at work…
Meanwhile the National Union of Students has been given £20,000 to bus in students from around the country, lured with the promise of a “FREE TRIP TO LONDON”.
THE PEOPLES VOTE - THE BEST FORM OF DEMOCRACY THAT MONEY CAN BUY!
EU funded sock puppet organisations are taking to twitter to promote yet another coalescing of Britain’s most die hard, no doubt beret-clad remainiacs in the heart of metropolitan London. The (Losers)’Peoples’ Vote campaign is holding another winge-a-thon walk through the capital tomorrow.
European Alternatives was handed €300,000 by the EU
And the European Movement was given €350,000.
Last week the European Parliament proposedspending an extra billion Euros to go to organisations which promote “a greater sense of belonging to the Union.” Your taxes at work…
Meanwhile the National Union of Students has been given £20,000 to bus in students from around the country, lured with the promise of a “FREE TRIP TO LONDON”.
THE PEOPLES VOTE - THE BEST FORM OF DEMOCRACY THAT MONEY CAN BUY!
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
I disagree with the idea that if the price of fruit and vegetables goes up by 55p per person per week, people will eat less healthily. What unhealthy foods can you buy for 55p? They might just eat less, which is surely good for the nation's obesity. (Incidentally, the methodology doesn't make clear whether or not the price of unhealthy foods will do up too. Maybe they should have considered the effects of people not buying food at all, and starving to death?)aggi wrote:The methodology seems sound but I haven't looked at it in detail, which bit are you disagreeing with? Tariffs and other costs increasing the prices, people eating less fruit and veg because it's more expensive or the healh implications of that?
You're obviously at the vocal end I referred to and entrenched in leave and all the bad news about WTO is just "project fear", I'm just not convinced that so many people share your view.
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
There's a bit of a flaw in that timetable, but no one in the govt. is very good at maths or timetables.Buxtonclaret wrote:
Ah, at last!
Common Sense in the Commons.
And even Groundhog Day finished eventually, so May's speech won't last long.
Note how they intend to get through everything in time to be free to see to the important business of the day, ie Burnley taking three points off Manure.
Assuming all 7 amendments are voted on, then it will be at least 9.00pm before all the results are in, and as I understand it, the Brady one is last.
Better to watch the game I reckon.
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
https://twitter.com/GiveBloodNHS/status ... 4237952000" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Wonderful
More "Project Fear"
Wonderful
More "Project Fear"
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
yep, and you fell for it, again.Lancasterclaret wrote:https://twitter.com/GiveBloodNHS/status ... 4237952000
Wonderful
More "Project Fear"
https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/ ... 3576168448" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
The 39 billion has nothing to do with the backstop, where are you getting an annual fee of 10 billion from? (That May be the cost of agreeing to us staying in the Single Market), it’s FREE and whilst we are in it we can negotiate other free trade deals.dsr wrote:That's not the way it works, either now or in future.
The deal is, we get access to the single market - but not for free.
We have to pay the following:
Give the EU free access to our market.
€39bn divorce bill
€10bn or so annual fee
EU rights over part of the UK
So, not for FREE.
Don’t we want reciprocal free trade with the EU?
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
You look at past events and other examples. If I were to say “if I put a loaded gun to you’re head and pull the trigger there is a good chance you will be injured” is that evidence or just speculation?Sproggy wrote:Just out of interest, how do you provide evidence of the impact of something that hasn't happened yet?
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Oh no, I'll never post on here again.again
Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Speculation. Thanks for helping to make the point.Burnley Ace wrote:You look at past events and other examples. If I were to say “if I put a loaded gun to you’re head and pull the trigger there is a good chance you will be injured” is that evidence or just speculation?
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Errr, yeah
Its "speculation" that a loaded gun pointing at your head could kill you.
Seriously Brexiteers, you all can't have lost it to this extent in 2016.
Its "speculation" that a loaded gun pointing at your head could kill you.
Seriously Brexiteers, you all can't have lost it to this extent in 2016.
Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Holding a loaded gun to my head and not pulling the trigger isn't evidence of a gun shot wound. I'll nip into Burnley General now and ask them to check if you like?
I didn't mention Brexit by the way, I'm just pointing out that you don't have evidence, you've got opinions.
I didn't mention Brexit by the way, I'm just pointing out that you don't have evidence, you've got opinions.
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Is it now time for the moderate Labour MPs (including Julie Cooper) to stop playing politics with the future of the UK economy and vote to support the Brady amendment ?
YES
YES
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Its a **** weak argument though
Every post on here by a Brexiteer suggests that anything that might make it less "sunlit uplands" is ignored as inconvenient.
Not your fault though, I'm watching Tory MP after Tory MP stand up and back Teresa May after trying to get rid of her last month, and Raab is up now warning about voting down a deal, which is exactly what he did when he quit a couple of months ago.
We get the politicians we deserve
Every post on here by a Brexiteer suggests that anything that might make it less "sunlit uplands" is ignored as inconvenient.
Not your fault though, I'm watching Tory MP after Tory MP stand up and back Teresa May after trying to get rid of her last month, and Raab is up now warning about voting down a deal, which is exactly what he did when he quit a couple of months ago.
We get the politicians we deserve
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Weak when you apply it to opinion on Brexit, but still correct. You're quoting opinion as evidence, which it isn't.
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
And why do you consider the Brady amendment so significant? All it does is to put the brexit timetable back once again, which will make the implementation of the Cooper (Yvette) amendment even more likely, (that is assuming that they are both passed this evening).Mala591 wrote:Is it now time for the moderate Labour MPs (including Julie Cooper) to stop playing politics with the future of the UK economy and vote to support the Brady amendment ?
YES
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Nope, because the weight of opinion based on experts in the field is massively going one way.
Now you either believe they are all on the EU gravy train (or whatever else you use to convince yourself that they are all wrong, and that you are right) or you go "Hmm, well, he's got thirty years of experience in world trade, and works for a international recognised trade organisation, surely he might know what he's talking about?"
With Brexit, you multiply that by 100 at least for each potential issue, and with very few exceptions, they come up with anything from "this is going to be bad" right through to "this is going to be terrible".
But you are right, its only an opinion, but the opinion the other way is very, very hard to find outside of a couple of right wing think tanks who have an office on the same block in London.
I mean, I used to work in both road haulage and freight ferry transport, and I wouldn't call myself an expert, but I got paid to do those jobs for about twelve years. I know from experience that a "No Deal" will cause huge problems for both these sectors. So I did some more digging around what I already knew and went from there.
How did you come to the conclusion that Brexit will be ace?
Now you either believe they are all on the EU gravy train (or whatever else you use to convince yourself that they are all wrong, and that you are right) or you go "Hmm, well, he's got thirty years of experience in world trade, and works for a international recognised trade organisation, surely he might know what he's talking about?"
With Brexit, you multiply that by 100 at least for each potential issue, and with very few exceptions, they come up with anything from "this is going to be bad" right through to "this is going to be terrible".
But you are right, its only an opinion, but the opinion the other way is very, very hard to find outside of a couple of right wing think tanks who have an office on the same block in London.
I mean, I used to work in both road haulage and freight ferry transport, and I wouldn't call myself an expert, but I got paid to do those jobs for about twelve years. I know from experience that a "No Deal" will cause huge problems for both these sectors. So I did some more digging around what I already knew and went from there.
How did you come to the conclusion that Brexit will be ace?
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Mala591 wrote:Is it now time for the moderate Labour MPs (including Julie Cooper) to stop playing politics with the future of the UK economy and vote to support the Brady amendment ?
YES
This is a reply to an email that was sent to Julie cooper recently regards brexit.
Good afternoon,
Thank you for your further e-mail regarding the ongoing Brexit negotiations.
I do not support a second referendum. From a logistical standpoint I do not think there is the time. For a second referendum to happen there would have to be an act of Parliament, this process alone can take months. Not to mention how long it would take to agree what the question should be or even how many options should be on the ballot paper. My view is that the priority at this point has to be establishing a deal which will gain a Parliamentary majority. Brexit has never been a Party political issue and should never have been treated as such. Over two years ago Labour MPs offered to work with the Government on a cross party basis to develop a set of negotiating objectives in the national interest. I am sure that the other opposition parties would have come to the table to help had they been asked but unfortunately they were not and the Prime Minister shunned all offers of support. Had this offer been accepted the current mess could have been avoided. I have to say that it has been extremely frustrating as a member of the Opposition not to have had the opportunity to make a constructive contribution that both respected the result of the referendum and delivered the best possible exit deal.
I hope you are assured that as your MP I will continue to call for cross party talks as I genuinely believe at this stage it is essential that some agreement is made to ensure we avoid a no deal scenario and deliver a deal which is in the national interest. I hope this addresses your concerns, once again thank you for taking the time to contact me.
Kind regards,
Julie Cooper MP
Constituency of Burnley
8 Keirby Walk
Burnley
BB11 2DE
01282 425744
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
When we see the way our MPs are caving due to fear of no deal, it becomes clear how the EU again and again win negotiations with late brinksmanship, knowing their counterparty will succumb to the threats.
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Not convinced that you understand what speculation (the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.) actually means!Sproggy wrote:Speculation. Thanks for helping to make the point.
Do you not think there is firm evidence (he available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid) that shooting someone in the head may cause injury?
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Labour amendment lost by 31 votes.
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Grieve amendment lost 321 to 301. What a mess that would have been if passed. Cooper up next. This is a biggy. Executive or backbenchers run the country.
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Cooper lost 321 to 298.
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
52% to 48%summitclaret wrote:Cooper lost 321 to 298.
Will she now call for a "People's amendment"
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
To be fair Lancaster, you put that up as yet more “evidence” that a no deal is a disaster. That was quickly corrected by the NHS themselves.Lancasterclaret wrote:https://twitter.com/GiveBloodNHS/status ... 4237952000
Wonderful
More "Project Fear"
Both sides are as bad as each other!
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Absolutely! And the usual suspects falling for it. Hook line and , the sky's going to fall in, sinker !Lancasterclaret wrote:https://twitter.com/GiveBloodNHS/status ... 4237952000
Wonderful
More "Project Fear"
Don't ever change Lancaster claret. Don't change!
Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Talking of being shot in the head, I enjoyed this tweet that I read this morning:
At the end of Of Mice and Men Lenny is in big trouble. Rather than tell him that there's no way out, his brother describes again how they're going to live on a beautiful ranch & tend rabbits, before shooting Lenny in the back of the head. Anyway that's where we are as a country.
Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
So I’m confused. How has John Bercow stopped Brexit?
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Claretandy/ringo/paintyorkclaretandblue et al
Keep concentrating on one minor tweet, and ignoring the millions of other bits of information that suggest that this is going to be tough.
Lads, don't ever change!
Keep concentrating on one minor tweet, and ignoring the millions of other bits of information that suggest that this is going to be tough.
Lads, don't ever change!
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
The UTC message board Remoaners-
Their yvette cooper "let's drag brexit out even longer, in an attempt to usurp democracy " comfort blanket, prised out of their fingers parliamentary vote by vote.
To a man, and just like James obrian right now.
Crying inside......
Their yvette cooper "let's drag brexit out even longer, in an attempt to usurp democracy " comfort blanket, prised out of their fingers parliamentary vote by vote.
To a man, and just like James obrian right now.
Crying inside......
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
I was wrong about the Cooper amendment passing, (although I was basing my view on what most journalists were predicting), but you never explained why it was so vital for Bercow to have the Brady vote first.nil_desperandum wrote:They'll most likely both be voted on and passed today.
My question was: why does it matter which vote takes place first?, since obviously the Brady amendment would send May back to the EU to fail before the Cooper amendment kicked in.
As it turns out it was the last amendment to be voted on and passed, so what was your logic?
Voted on first, second or last it was always going to send TM back to Brussels before anything else, and yet you were adamant that Bercow's role in selecting the order in which the votes would be held would effectively be pivotal. Why?
As we continually point out, it's the way MPs vote that determines policy not Bercow's procedures.
Brady's amendment would either pass or not and Bercow would have no influence on the way MPs voted, whether it be at 7.00pm or 8.45pm.
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
JeezThe UTC message board Remoaners-
Their yvette cooper "let's drag brexit out even longer, in an attempt to usurp democracy " comfort blanket, prised out of their fingers parliamentary vote by vote.
To a man, and just like James obrian right now.
Crying inside......
We need a deal. We've just blown a chance to organise one by giving de facto power to 80+ ERG members who don't want one.
And of course, Parliament has shown itself unable to take tough decisions and is back to believing in unspecified solutions.
To be honest, it would be more sensible to stop all negotiations now if we are going to pretend that the backstop is negotiable and start a crash (and very expensive) No Deal planning scenario.
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
When parliament votes down Mays chequers deal Remoaners were crowing "it's parliament taking back control" it's what you voted for!"Lancasterclaret wrote:
And of course, Parliament has shown itself unable to take tough decisions and is back to believing in unspecified solutions.
When they vote in a way they don't like, it's "back to believing in unspecified solutions"!
Anyway, as you'll be more than aware, obrian has mystery hour on Thursdays.
I've stopped listening to the Grinding Monologue Meister and pontificating socialist with starff. But got the dial locked on LBC to listen to his self absorbed, bewildered, delusion, as he indulges himself in a " 3 hour Heartbreak special!"
Comedy gold!
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Ringo
You are not thick so you know the problem is the backstop, and that it is not negotiable.
Quick glance at the political journos on twitter this morning and there is rare uniformity on this vote changes nothing, as the fudge required to get remainers and the ERG to back won't last the first serious attempt to sort it out into something that can be voted on and turned into a withdrawal agreement.
The only ray of light is that there is a lot of leeway to certain words in the Brady amendment, and if people are willing to show that leeway with that, then they might do that with the backstop. But its only a chink.
You are not thick so you know the problem is the backstop, and that it is not negotiable.
Quick glance at the political journos on twitter this morning and there is rare uniformity on this vote changes nothing, as the fudge required to get remainers and the ERG to back won't last the first serious attempt to sort it out into something that can be voted on and turned into a withdrawal agreement.
The only ray of light is that there is a lot of leeway to certain words in the Brady amendment, and if people are willing to show that leeway with that, then they might do that with the backstop. But its only a chink.
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
But they didn't vote to take back control last night, they voted to give control of the process back to the EU, who will simply refuse to move their red line over the Irish border, because it's enshrine in an International Treaty - The Belfast agreement. So in a couple of weeks parliament will have to face the same issues again.RingoMcCartney wrote:When parliament votes down Mays chequers deal Remoaners were crowing "it's parliament taking back control" it's what you voted for!"
When they vote in a way they don't like, it's "back to believing in unspecified solutions"!
!
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Peter Foster - Daily Telegraph Europe editor sums it up far better than I can
https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/10 ... 0858387456" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/10 ... 0858387456" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Here's that proof at last that Lancaster isn't always right.Lancasterclaret wrote:Ringo
You are not thick
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
"The vote changes nothing"Lancasterclaret wrote:Ringo
You are not thick so you know the problem is the backstop, and that it is not negotiable.
Quick glance at the political journos on twitter this morning and there is rare uniformity on this vote changes nothing, as the fudge required to get remainers and the ERG to back won't last the first serious attempt to sort it out into something that can be voted on and turned into a withdrawal agreement.
The only ray of light is that there is a lot of leeway to certain words in the Brady amendment, and if people are willing to show that leeway with that, then they might do that with the backstop. But its only a chink.
Good, then we leave on WTO on March 29th 2019.
The Irish / EU have to decide whether they agree to everything they want with a revised back stop.
Or
They get nothing they want , with a "hard border"
And let the EU lay the first brick on the border, cos the British certainly won't be.
If they're so sure that the backstop is just an insurance policy that we don't want to use. Then have it in a legally binding time limited document. Rather than a political statement which in real terms , is just a gentlemens agreement that when it comes down to trying to enforce it in law, means having to prove the EU has made "best endeavours" which is extremely difficult, in legal terms to prove or disprove.
Now can I crack on with my job in hand and listen to obrian having a small scale personal meltdown!
It's gripping radio!
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
See my above post.nil_desperandum wrote:But they didn't vote to take back control last night, they voted to give control of the process back to the EU, who will simply refuse to move their red line over the Irish border, because it's enshrine in an International Treaty - The Belfast agreement. So in a couple of weeks parliament will have to face the same issues again.
And tune into LBC for a rib tickling 3 hour Heartbreak special!
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Ringo, this is why the Brady amendment doesn't tell the EU anything new, because it can be read in a variety of different ways
https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status ... 3431151616" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You've been full on "No Deal" for a while now, but have swerved why its such a good thing for the UK. Care to expand on that (when youv'e got the time obviously! I'm trying to square some accounts here! )
https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status ... 3431151616" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You've been full on "No Deal" for a while now, but have swerved why its such a good thing for the UK. Care to expand on that (when youv'e got the time obviously! I'm trying to square some accounts here! )
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Parliament made it quite clear last night that "no deal" won't be acceptable.RingoMcCartney wrote:"The vote changes nothing"
Good, then we leave on WTO on March 29th 2019.
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
I've not been "full on "no deal". I've been "full on" the biggest single expression of democracy the nation has ever witnessed being implemented. Deal or WTO.Lancasterclaret wrote:Ringo, this is why the Brady amendment doesn't tell the EU anything new, because it can be read in a variety of different ways
https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status ... 3431151616" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You've been full on "No Deal" for a while now, but have swerved why its such a good thing for the UK. Care to expand on that (when youv'e got the time obviously! I'm trying to square some accounts here! )
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
But its not legally binding.
In the nicest possible way, May and the ERG will take as much notice of that as Ringo does of any evidence that this might not be the best idea ever.
In the nicest possible way, May and the ERG will take as much notice of that as Ringo does of any evidence that this might not be the best idea ever.
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Well, you have been because you are happy with "No Deal"
You need to share the confidence of why this is ok with people who might not share that confidence.
You need to share the confidence of why this is ok with people who might not share that confidence.
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Exactly, just like the referendum. (I was rather hoping that Ringo would have made that point).Lancasterclaret wrote:But its not legally binding.
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Well, yes but at this stage that doesn't really help.
I think we both have to realise now that being constantly right is actually making no difference at all. These guys want this so much that nothing is going to get in the way.
I'd love to ask Nicky Morgan et al why they did what they did last night, because it gives so much power to those who want "No Deal"
I think we both have to realise now that being constantly right is actually making no difference at all. These guys want this so much that nothing is going to get in the way.
I'd love to ask Nicky Morgan et al why they did what they did last night, because it gives so much power to those who want "No Deal"
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Yes, but if they want to they can still ultimately prevent "no deal" when it comes down to the line, and last night's vote suggests that that would happen.Lancasterclaret wrote:Well, yes but at this stage that doesn't really help.
I think we both have to realise now that being constantly right is actually making no difference at all. These guys want this so much that nothing is going to get in the way.
I'd love to ask Nicky Morgan et al why they did what they did last night, because it gives so much power to those who want "No Deal"
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
"Suggests"
I'm not relying on Parliament to do anything to stop a "No Deal" to be honest.
Look at the list of Lab voters who voted with the government and where they are based. They voted for a Tory Brexit , despite being in the areas that have destroyed by Tory policies, because their constituents think its not the fault of the Tories, but have been told that it will all magically get better when we leave the EU.
You can't fight that level of bellendry I'm afraid.
I'm not relying on Parliament to do anything to stop a "No Deal" to be honest.
Look at the list of Lab voters who voted with the government and where they are based. They voted for a Tory Brexit , despite being in the areas that have destroyed by Tory policies, because their constituents think its not the fault of the Tories, but have been told that it will all magically get better when we leave the EU.
You can't fight that level of bellendry I'm afraid.
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
All true, but when - if it comes to a cliff-edge I think you'll find the Tory remainers will pull together. They were able to "hold" their side / party together for a while longer by voting for "brady" last night, but once that's gone, they'll be faced with reality.Lancasterclaret wrote:"Suggests"
I'm not relying on Parliament to do anything to stop a "No Deal" to be honest.
Look at the list of Lab voters who voted with the government and where they are based. They voted for a Tory Brexit , despite being in the areas that have destroyed by Tory policies, because their constituents think its not the fault of the Tories, but have been told that it will all magically get better when we leave the EU.
You can't fight that level of bellendry I'm afraid.
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
But will they vote with a Corbyn led Labour party?
All of them regard him as more dangerous to the Uk than Brexit, and probably a "No Deal" Brexit.
I think he's useless, but I'd vote with him to stop a "No Deal", but then again I'm not a Conservative MP.
All of them regard him as more dangerous to the Uk than Brexit, and probably a "No Deal" Brexit.
I think he's useless, but I'd vote with him to stop a "No Deal", but then again I'm not a Conservative MP.
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Re: Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Don't need to vote with Corbyn. (We share the same view of him)Lancasterclaret wrote:But will they vote with a Corbyn led Labour party?
All of them regard him as more dangerous to the Uk than Brexit, and probably a "No Deal" Brexit.
I think he's useless, but I'd vote with him to stop a "No Deal", but then again I'm not a Conservative MP.
Ken Clarke (e.g.) can come up with some wording in a vote of confidence that unites all moderates, and forms some kind of Parliamentary alliance under a new leader. It would be up to Labour to support it.