Cooper's Amendment

[RingoMcCartney]

Reduced to throwing around personal insults eh?

Well, I say “reduced”. It’s actually an improvement on your usual standard of post, if we disregard the hypocrisy for a minute.

You said I was a "simpleton"

I said whether or not you are a person that thinks is debatable.

I failed to specify which side of the debate I'd be on.

[Lancasterclaret]

Or how "No Deal" is good for the UK?

[Greenmile]

You said I was a "simpleton”....

No I didn’t.

What’s sovereignty, Ringo?

[RingoMcCartney]

But not if the man in the street thinks the problems in the street are caused by something else other than the EU though.

I get the dissatisfaction with globalisation, and I get that the EU is part of that, but I don't get how leaving it improves us. Simple put, the past is the past and we can't go back.

As I explained to Tom swarbrick, Bliar is convinced that his knowledge of "how the relationship between the UK and the EU works," is more important than the man in the street knowing about its EFFECTS.

It's not.

Critically, neither is his vote, and over 17,400,000 million people agreed with me.

As did Tom Swarbrick.

[Lancasterclaret]

But that doesn't answer the point Ringo.

You have valid concerns about where you live and the impact that decisions over a period of time have made on that area.

but again, how less economic growth help that?

[RingoMcCartney]

No I didn’t.

What’s sovereignty, Ringo?

Liar

[RingoMcCartney]

Go back, read the thread again for context, and let me know when you’ve figured out the difference between the UK “leaving” the EU, and our “crashing out” of the EU.

It’s really not difficult - even for a simpleton who only deals in stock phrases and cliches.

This is you saying I was a simpleton.

It's better to be suspected of being a person that doesn't think.

Than opening your gob and removing all doubt!

[Rowls]

I get the dissatisfaction with globalisation, and I get that the EU is part of that, but I don't get how leaving it improves us. Simple put, the past is the past and we can't go back.

I can only speak for myself and perhaps am not typical of your 'man on the street' but here it is in very simple terms:

The old EEC was a trade group. Trade is good - it makes us more prosperous.

The EU changed in the 80s and became not a simple trade group - it became a political entity. Then in the 90s it introduced -for non-economic reasons- the Euro currency.

The Euro is a bad idea full stop. The EU is committed to maintaining the Euro, even at the expense of its members economies. The EU is committed to political expansion.

It's nothing really to do with 'globalisation' - it's because the EU has overreached and become a political entity.

Leaving allows us to leave the politicking of the EU behind us and become an independent sovereign state once again.

And if the EU does 'punish' us once we leave it will only prove that we were right to do so.

[Greenmile]

This is you saying I was a simpleton....

No it isn’t. Read it again.

Then tell me what you think sovereignty is.

Edit - and then you can apologise for falsely accusing me of being a liar.

[RingoMcCartney]

Go back, read the thread again for context, and let me know when you’ve figured out the difference between the UK “leaving” the EU, and our “crashing out” of the EU.

It’s really not difficult - even for a SIMPLETON who only deals in stock phrases and cliches.

You read it again. And stop trolling.

[Lancasterclaret]

Cheers Rowls, but I was actually asking Ringo.

Not going to argue with everything you have said (even though I don't agree with most of it!)

But even so, how does, er "becoming an independent sovereign state* again" improve stuff for the man in the street?

This is the bit I have never got.

*we never stopped being any of that btw

[Greenmile]

You read it again. And stop trolling.

I think you might need English lessons. Not an immigrant are you?

Edit - what’s sovereignty, Ringo?

[RingoMcCartney]

But that doesn't answer the point Ringo.

You have valid concerns about where you live and the impact that decisions over a period of time have made on that area.

but again, how less economic growth help that?

As many many other poster have tried, and no doubt in your eyes, have failed, to explain that your opinion is based on economic "experts" , on economic forecasts. Now, they've tried to explain that given the track record of those making those forecasts, should be taken with a large pinch of salt.

And over and over again you've disagreed.

So I'll simply say, that 17,400,000 leave voters based their vote on ending the status quo.

Not on conjecture..

[Bordeauxclaret]

I spoke on Tom Swarbricks show on LBC last night.

This is what I said-

I whole heartedly agreed with Tony Blairs claim that "He knows more about the relationship between the UK and the EU." than the man in the street.

However, the man in the street knows more about the EFFECTS of the relationship between the UK and the EU on the man in the street, than Tony Bliar ever will.

The TV show we are all desperate for moves a step closer.
Excellent.

[houseboy]

Your comment would probably be better directed at the poster who accused an elected MP of treason for not voting the way they wanted her to.

It's not directed at anyone bud. Just making a relevant point at the apropriate moment.

[summitclaret]

Some things are more inportant than money, especially freedom and independance and the culture.

Why would british people want ever closer union?

Why would a country not want to be able to decide who lives here. Ditto to make its own laws and judge them without interference.

Why do we pay far more net pa than France into the EU. How does that help our economy, especially if it is low paid families needing tax credits etc?

Why should wages be undermined by cheap foreign labour?

[houseboy]

They're supposed to make decisions based on what they think is best for their constituents.

Just because 67% of an MP's constituents ask for a punch in the face doesn't mean the MP has to do it.

But I suppose the MP better punch them all in the face just in case they get accused of treason.

Technically they are not obliged to listen to a word their constituents say (although they should to be fair) because the constitiuencies are just a way of voting to get the required numbers. Just like candidates standing under the umbrella of a party even though it doesn't legally mean a thing and they can change any time they want. MPs SHOULD do what their constituents want in a perfect world, at least to a degree, but once they are voted in they can pretty much do what they like.

[Lancasterclaret]

Cheers Ringo

That didn't answer any of my questions but would have sounded fantastic to a room full of Brexiteers.

Summit

Cheers for that.

I disagree with all of it but you are entitled to hold those views.

[nil_desperandum]

Some things are more inportant than money, especially freedom and independance and the culture.

Why would british people want ever closer union?

Why would a country not want to be able to decide who lives here. Ditto to make its own laws and judge them without interference.

Why do we pay far more net pa than France into the EU. How does that help our economy, especially if it is low paid families needing tax credits etc?

Why should wages be undermined by cheap foreign labour?

There's plenty to argue there, but just to clear up one point, we don't pay far more pa into the EU than France, we in fact pay less.
In fact we pay a lot less. The populations are very similar but they pay almost double. 128,839 million Euros in 2017 compared to our 77,655 million.
Why do you make stuff like that up when it's so easy to look up the figures?
It's more difficult to prove conclusively the accuracy / veracity of your other claims.

[Murger]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Mala591]

There's plenty to argue there, but just to clear up one point, we don't pay far more pa into the EU than France, we in fact pay less.
In fact we pay a lot less. The populations are very similar but they pay almost double. 128,839 million Euros in 2017 compared to our 77,655 million.
Why do you make stuff like that up when it's so easy to look up the figures?
It's more difficult to prove conclusively the accuracy / veracity of your other claims.

The UK's NET contribution to the EU is (currently) in the region of £9 billion annually. When we leave the EU this money will then be available to help fund the NHS, social services etc.

[summitclaret]

Those figures seem way too high. Also I said net ie contribution less rebates. I read ages ago that our net was higher. Apologies if I am wrong.

[nil_desperandum]

The UK's NET contribution to the EU is (currently) in the region of £9 billion annually. When we leave the EU this money will then be available to help fund the NHS, social services etc.

Except even the most ardent advocates of "leave" admitted immediately after the referendum that it won't. It'll be needed to pay for other things including trade agreements.

[AndrewJB]

Some things are more inportant than money, especially freedom and independance and the culture.

Why would british people want ever closer union?

Why would a country not want to be able to decide who lives here. Ditto to make its own laws and judge them without interference.

Why do we pay far more net pa than France into the EU. How does that help our economy, especially if it is low paid families needing tax credits etc?

Why should wages be undermined by cheap foreign labour?

Good questions. And your initial point that money is less important than freedom, independence, and culture, I entirely agree with. I think most people would.

I don't think the EU project sacrifices our freedom, independence (I'll get on to this a bit later), and definitely not our culture. If we first look at your questions:

"Why would British people want ever closer union?" Okay - why did Scottish, Northumbrian, Mercian, and everyone else go for it with the United Kingdom in the first place? Because 'combining' makes you stronger. The major difference here being the UK combined under one monarch, and the EU is combining as 28 separate democracies. The old 19th Century ideal of a nation state being one people with one language, one religion, and one leader is not what the EU is pushing. It's much closer to the Canadian 19th Century ideals of; "we all live here in a widespread place and speak different languages, eat different foods, worship differently, but we're all Canadian" We also have a veto, so if there's something we feel uncomfortable about we can just say "no" So closer integration isn't us all being the same, but having the same rights and freedoms. Britain keeps the mile, the pound, the pint, but we also commit to a common set of standards and rules - which is a positive thing.

Why would a country not want to be able to decide who lives here. Ditto to make its own laws and judge them without interference. - we have this already. Even if we leave the EU, we're still bound to UN treaties. And whatever trade agreements we make after we leave will involve compromise. The ultimate statement of a country's freedom is that of the ability to make war. We have done this on quite a few occasions since we joined the EU. We are a sovereign nation.

"Why do we pay far more net pa than France into the EU. How does that help our economy, especially if it is low paid families needing tax credits etc? " Why do you pay more tax than people who earn less then you, especially when you're trying to save for something you want? Because it's fair. Germany pays in more than we do, because they're better off. If you want to talk about poverty in this country, then that's a matter for our national government - which has made poverty worse through their policy of austerity. Again, we are a sovereign nation. we've made our poor poorer all by ourselves.

"Why should wages be undermined by cheap foreign labour?" - because our labour laws are not good enough. We are a sovereign nation. We can make our labour laws stronger, but our government has chosen not to do that. In fact they've weakened them since they came to power.

Most of your points come down to problems caused by our sovereign government, rather than the EU. And when it comes to independence, we give that up in whatever trade deal, or treaty we sign. The only way we could be truly independent is by belonging to no organisation whatsoever.

[nil_desperandum]

Those figures seem way too high. Also I said net ie contribution less rebates. I read ages ago that our net was higher. Apologies if I am wrong.

It's me that needs to apologise, though my general point that France contributes significantly more than the UK remains correct.
I accidentally took the figures from the wrong columns. Those figures were cumulative over 6 years.
The latest actual figures that I can find for a single year, (i.e. pa) are that UK contributed 11.3 billion Euros, France 19.5 billion.
The current figures won't be significantly different in terms of proportion.

http://ec.europa.eu/budget/library/bibl ... 0-2014.xls" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[aggi]

Well this was entirely unexpected
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47036119" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[BennyD]

He’s saying they’re the experts rather than the elite. In the same way we refer to an expert when we’re ill or when our cars needs fixing, why shouldn’t we defer to those with the right knowledge and experience in political matters?

I did defer to someone who has extensive personal experience of working within the EU; Nigel Farage. So, what’s your point?

[evensteadiereddie]

Well this was entirely unexpected
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47036119" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The spivs are rubbing their hands already. Madness.

[Greenmile]

I did defer to someone who has extensive personal experience of working within the EU; Nigel Farage. So, what’s your point?

“Working”

[martin_p]

I did defer to someone who has extensive personal experience of working within the EU; Nigel Farage. So, what’s your point?

Well he’s certainly an expert on the MEP expenses system.

[Lancasterclaret]

Benny has to be trolling there.

He absolutely has to be.

If he isn't though........

[BennyD]

Well he’s certainly an expert on the MEP expenses system.

Every MEP is. Another reason I’m glad we are going.

[Bordeauxclaret]

And here is former Brexit secretary Dominic Raab trying to explain his way out of not reading The Good Friday Agreement.
https://twitter.com/oxforddiplomat/stat ... 26496?s=21" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I’ve never actually seen it so can only assume it’s thousands of pages long which is why he didn’t get chance.

[Lancasterclaret]

Every MEP is. Another reason I’m glad we are going.

Thank God the UK parliament has never been embroiled in an expenses scandal.............oh

[Lancasterclaret]

Irish backstop explained (again)

https://twitter.com/simoncoveney/status ... 4163110920" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lancasterclaret]

Clued up journalist has done a list of what the reality of not having a backstop but some sort of "Max Fax" might involve.

https://twitter.com/SamuelMarcLowe/stat ... 4526128129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AndrewJB]

I can only speak for myself and perhaps am not typical of your 'man on the street' but here it is in very simple terms:

The old EEC was a trade group. Trade is good - it makes us more prosperous.

The EU changed in the 80s and became not a simple trade group - it became a political entity. Then in the 90s it introduced -for non-economic reasons- the Euro currency.

The Euro is a bad idea full stop. The EU is committed to maintaining the Euro, even at the expense of its members economies. The EU is committed to political expansion.

It's nothing really to do with 'globalisation' - it's because the EU has overreached and become a political entity.

Leaving allows us to leave the politicking of the EU behind us and become an independent sovereign state once again.

And if the EU does 'punish' us once we leave it will only prove that we were right to do so.

What is wrong with the EU becoming more than simply a trading bloc? What is wrong with the areas we have cooperation with the EU? Fighting crime, the nuclear industry, human rights, healthcare, foreign policy, and more. All of these are positive things. And if the trading side of the EU is the only good thing, why would we want to leave the customs union? We're not in the Euro, so I'll leave that side of your argument as irrelevant, but as a general idea, the theory of "pooling sovereignty" - which of course means making some compromises, but then gives twenty-eight countries a commanding voice on the world stage - is a good thing. Multinational companies take advantage of differing tax laws to minimise what they pay, so the EU is in a position to force multinationals to fork over more (for example), so I would say there's scope for further integration. The EU takes away the obstacles of borders that is most burdensome for people and companies, while promoting national and cultural identities. Win win.

And people didn't vote against the effects of the EU, but against the effects of the policies of this government - austerity, and the constant cuts that has seen the longest stagnation of wages since Napoleonic times. The housing, low wage, NHS, underfunded education and police, crises, to name a few, might be blamed by some people on immigrants or the EU (though never with supporting evidence), but the reality is our government is responsible. The MoD is currently being attacked for the hole in their finances. Is that because of the huge cuts to their budget? Or is it the fault of Romanians coming here?

[Lancasterclaret]

And again, the backstop as reality when viewed from an EU perspective

https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/sta ... 9941499904" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[aggi]

Thank God the UK parliament has never been embroiled in an expenses scandal.............oh

One area that the EU really does need to sort out is expenses. At least in the UK we made an effort to reform the system after it had problems.

The round sum allowance that needs no evidence is pretty scandalous, over €50k per year for who knows what and the EU is determined to keep it that way https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... urt-ruling" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Mala591]

The first step should be to remove the emotive 'border' word and replace it with 'EU/UK transition zone'. This zone could be ten miles wide on both sides of the 'old border'. Local residents and businesses travelling in and out of this zone could be monitored using number plate OCR (optical character recognition).

Monitoring goods and animal products passing through the transition zone would be more challenging but, because the zone is 20 miles wide, any random check points would be implemented well away from the old border and wouldn't have the same psychological impact.

[RingoMcCartney]

The horrific case of a pregnant women having to give birth and cut her own umbilical chord through fear of falling foul of Mike Ashley's inhumane working practices in the sports direct warehouse, typify how bad things have got for the working class.

You can have a welfare state. That looks after those at the bottom.

You can have uncontrolled mass immigration and a constant supply of cheap foreign labour to swell the bank balances of exploitative bosses. Which leave workers having to tolerate dickensian work conditions working for latter day master sweeps and bullying mill owners.

You cannot have both.

[nil_desperandum]

The first step should be to remove the emotive 'border' word and replace it with 'EU/UK transition zone'. This zone could be ten miles wide on both sides of the 'old border'. Local residents and businesses travelling in and out of this zone could be monitored using number plate OCR (optical character recognition).

Monitoring goods and animal products passing through the transition zone would be more challenging but, because the zone is 20 miles wide, any random check points would be implemented well away from the old border and wouldn't have the same psychological impact.

I know that you're trying to be constructive, but apart from other practicalities what would you do with (London)derry (still a troubled city) which virtually sits on the border? Presumably it would have to be some kind of "freeport" like Danzig (Gdansk) from 1919 to 1939.
Loyalists would never accept that.

[RingoMcCartney]

Remoaner myth - "planes won't fly post brexit"

http://www.cityam.com/270797/flights-co ... nt-no-deal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Myth busted!

Remoaner myth - "we won't be able to travel freely across Europe anymore"

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 57901.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Myth busted!

[Lancasterclaret]

Ringo, you might want to check out this

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/ ... 2502406144" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh dear, not so good for Gibraltar..........

(which voted for 99% remain, cos they live in the real world, not a fantasy based on bullshit)

[randomclaret2]

What is a ' clued up journalist '....someone you happen to agree with ?

[RingoMcCartney]

Ringo, you might want to check out this

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/ ... 2502406144" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh dear, not so good for Gibraltar..........

(which voted for 99% remain, cos they live in the real world, not a fantasy based on bullshit)

The Catalonians would perhaps see themselves as bring a colony of Spain...

[Lancasterclaret]

Nope, someone who has a job as a journalist whose job it is to report facts and the reality.

[Lancasterclaret]

Right, so your reading of that is

"the catalonians would perhaps see themselves as being a colony of Spain"

Christ mate, you are not that thick. Do I have to point out to you what that document means if it is signed to by the UK?

[nil_desperandum]

The horrific case of a pregnant women having to give birth and cut her own umbilical chord through fear of falling foul of Mike Ashley's inhumane working practices in the sports direct warehouse, typify how bad things have got for the working class.

You can have a welfare state. That looks after those at the bottom.

You can have uncontrolled mass immigration and a constant supply of cheap foreign labour to swell the bank balances of exploitative bosses. Which leave workers having to tolerate dickensian work conditions working for latter day master sweeps and bullying mill owners.

You cannot have both.

You seem to be identifying a problem that is entirely caused by successive governments of our own and has nothing to do with the EU.
Do you honestly think that Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Redwood, Jenkin, Francois, Cash, Bone etc. want a "no deal" brexit so that they can invest more in the welfare state and the NHS, and improve workers' rights, pay and conditions?
If so, then you're in for a very nasty shock, though I'm not sure you'll feel the pain as much as those who you claim to be concerned about.

[RingoMcCartney]

What is a ' clued up journalist '....someone you happen to agree with ?

Last time I heard Islam talking . He was describing another of May's vain attempt at getting the EU to budge in their negotiating stance.

He said, "but why would they? When they look over the channel to see the majority of parliament doing the upmost to , what many see as, inflicting as much harm on the Governments negotiating position, and many would see as stopping brexit all together!"

He said it with the broadest self righteous and smug grin his Remoaner face could manage.