Tonight’s Pen

ClaretLoup · Post by **ClaretLoup** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:08 am

boatshed bill wrote:That really is a fantastic dive by Ramsey. Embarrassing.

Indeed, very cunning but underlines the difficulty the referee has when faced with these situations. Ramsey is clearly backing on to Tarky who is heading towards the ball. It's 50/50 who initiates any contact but the dive makes it look like it's Tarky who does. However neither player has possession of the ball so it should have been just like any other coming together in the box and no foul. The ref gets conned.

Looking at the video of the Hendrick foul Lindgard has the ball and Jeff initiates some contact, not enough for the player to go down but enough to give Moss a decision to make. If he doesn't go down probably there is no pen. but under the rules Moss is obliged to give it and may get marked down by the referee assessor if he does not.

Sutton-Claret · Post by **Sutton-Claret** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:10 am

The worse possible words you'll here today from the so-called expert pundits will be - ''he felt a touch - he was entitled to go down''

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:12 am

TVC15 wrote:For all those people saying this is penalty can they explain how a slight pull on somebody’s shoulder can physically cause someone to fall forward ?
At least if that cheating two hat had dived backwards it would have not defied science.

Give it a try today at work - grab a colleague by the shoulder and see if he falls forward !

Only seen the penalty live on the game so cant comment on that particular incident but can answer your question in general.

If your momentum is going forward, especially in a situation where you are finely balanced and poised if someone pulls you or grabs you it is in the release that you can fall forward. Try holding gently on the back a babys top when they are trying to walk forward and let go and you will see them stumble forward off balance and fall over

WestMidsClaret · Post by **WestMidsClaret** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:18 am

That's because they are a baby they have no sense of balance. Comparing Lingard's theatrics to a baby

You try too hard.

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:18 am

Time we started throwing ourselves to the floor ? , trouble is we do that we get booked

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:20 am

Lingard strikes me as having the mental age of a baby so it might be fair.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:21 am

Ok DA - I know you like to live up to the username but clearly a baby does not have the same balance or strength.
Absolutely no way in a million years replicating what Hendrick did on Lingard can result in someone falling forward in the air with feet off the ground like Lingard did. Pushing someone might cause that - slightly pulling someone does not....unless you are 9 months old and unsteady on your feet !

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:59 am

So just to be clear. Is everybody ok with Barnes diving every time the ball is near?

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:03 am

Rileybobs wrote:He looked desperate to give them a pen. Probably because it gives him a minute or two to catch his breath. He had pointed to the spot shortly before but was over-ruled by his assistant.

That said, if you put your arm on the opposition in the box the streetwise ones will hit the deck and win a penalty. Very soft but not sure we can have complaints.

Unfortunately you are right but it doesn't make it any less cheating. How have we got to this position where it is considered a players 'right' to go down if he is breathed on too heavy in the box? The rules of the game are not being applied. I am certain that nowhere in the rules of football does it state that you may drop to the floor like a stone if someone brushes your arm.

clive40golf · Post by **clive40golf** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:04 am

Try holding gently on the back a babys top when they are trying to walk forward and let go and you will see them stumble forward off balance and fall over[/quote]

“And father of the year award goes to”

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:05 am

TVC15 wrote:Ok DA - I know you like to live up to the username but clearly a baby does not have the same balance or strength.
Absolutely no way in a million years replicating what Hendrick did on Lingard can result in someone falling forward in the air with feet off the ground like Lingard did. Pushing someone might cause that - slightly pulling someone does not....unless you are 9 months old and unsteady on your feet !

I said I wasn't replying to last nights incident. The baby was an example that if you are walking forward and get pulled when the restraint is let go the physical result is to fall forward.

Professional footballers are often moving at pace, twisting and turning and also concentrating on lots things happening around them so a sudden tug can result in fall forward.

Next time it happens to a Burnley player I'll flag it on here and you can tell us how much they are cheating and diving but for now I'm not gonna get into a full day discussion as ive given my opinion

ngsobob · Post by **ngsobob** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:10 am

The decision should rest on whether the opponent put him down or he put himself down. Lingard and others put themselves down as soon as the wind blows.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:17 am

clive40golf wrote:Try holding gently on the back a babys top when they are trying to walk forward and let go and you will see them stumble forward off balance and fall over

“And father of the year award goes to”

You don't want to hear about my tests for two footed out of control tackles!!!

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:20 am

I think it was a penalty, albeit soft. Lingard was impeded with contact by Hendrick.

Unfortunately players have to go down because penalties aren't given if they don't.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:26 am

It was a foul by Hendrick as he clearly made contact in an "illegal" way followed by a dive from Lingard.
It should therefore have been a penalty and a yellow card for Lingard.
(It shouldn't matter whether a player goes down or not, it's still a foul if you impede a player).

WestMidsClaret · Post by **WestMidsClaret** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:27 am

It's either a dive or penalty. You can't have both.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:38 am

WestMidsClaret wrote:It's either a dive or penalty. You can't have both.

Yes you can.

WestMidsClaret · Post by **WestMidsClaret** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:43 am

Can you? When has it happened? I genuinely haven't seen it happen.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:44 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:I said I wasn't replying to last nights incident. The baby was an example that if you are walking forward and get pulled when the restraint is let go the physical result is to fall forward.

Professional footballers are often moving at pace, twisting and turning and also concentrating on lots things happening around them so a sudden tug can result in fall forward.

Next time it happens to a Burnley player I'll flag it on here and you can tell us how much they are cheating and diving but for now I'm not gonna get into a full day discussion as ive given my opinion

So are you saying the thought of diving never enters a players mind when they get into the box, and will only ever go down if they are fouled?

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:46 am

Spijed wrote:So are you saying the thought of diving never enters a players mind when they get into the box, and will only ever go down if they are fouled?

No that's not what I am saying

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:49 am

WestMidsClaret wrote:Can you? When has it happened? I genuinely haven't seen it happen.

It happens all the time, it happened last night.

Or did you mean that there can't be a booking for diving and also a penalty? If that's what you meant then you're probably right, but that's not what you said.

WestMidsClaret · Post by **WestMidsClaret** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:51 am

Well if it would've been given as a dive then it would've been a booking and no pen. It wasn't penalised as a dive.

But yes essentially that's what I meant.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:56 am

All these arguments could be forgotten if Referees were made to do media interviews post match.
They walk away untarnished, for Gallagher to spout crap in order to defend the indefensible.
We 8nterview managers and players, then the pundits, why can't we interview referees. I'm sure that IF they had to defend their decisions post match, a lot less mistakes would be made.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:02 am

Spijed wrote:So are you saying the thought of diving never enters a players mind when they get into the box, and will only ever go down if they are fouled?

This was a soft penalty but compared to the Ollie Watkins incident last night's was stonewall.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:06 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:All these arguments could be forgotten if Referees were made to do media interviews post match.
They walk away untarnished, for Gallagher to spout crap in order to defend the indefensible.
We 8nterview managers and players, then the pundits, why can't we interview referees. I'm sure that IF they had to defend their decisions post match, a lot less mistakes would be made.

Cos managers can lie and be completely biased towards their own team. My position on this is that managers should be interviewed together and challenged on their opinion and shown footage of incidents and made to speak honestly. The day we can get the managers, fans and pundits to all agree on a decision being wrong after seeing the incident live and replayed then I think its fair to consider questioning the refs about their performance but we are miles away from that happening anytime soon

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:12 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:Only seen the penalty live on the game so cant comment on that particular incident but can answer your question in general.

If your momentum is going forward, especially in a situation where you are finely balanced and poised if someone pulls you or grabs you it is in the release that you can fall forward. Try holding gently on the back a babys top when they are trying to walk forward and let go and you will see them stumble forward off balance and fall over

Ever seen a rugby match? If a rugby player's momentum is going forward and someone pulls his arm, does he fall over? It may be that football likes the idea that "sufficient force to cause a baby to fall over" is dirty play and deserves a penalty. But I hope not.

strayclaret · Post by **strayclaret** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:14 am

Jeff shouldn’t have “laid hands” on him, nevertheless he went down like a sack of spuds.
On reflection this morning it’s got to be seen as a point gained.

WestMidsClaret · Post by **WestMidsClaret** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:17 am

strayclaret wrote:Jeff shouldn’t have “laid hands” on him, nevertheless he went down like a sack of spuds.
On reflection this morning it’s got to be seen as a point gained.

It's still like an itch you just can't reach to scratch. Bloody annoying. 2 up in the 87th minute. In hindsight it's a great point but still grrrrr

Six fingers · Post by **Six fingers** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:19 am

Would we have got that,if it had bean in there pen area .I don't think so

Goodclaret · Post by **Goodclaret** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:20 am

Sutton-Claret wrote:The worse possible words you'll here today from the so-called expert pundits will be - ''he felt a touch - he was entitled to go down''

Exactly this, it's a disgrace. The thing is if a striker places his hand on a defender running in to the box and the defender theatrically fell like wee Jesse last night then there isn't a chance the defender would get a free kick and this "there was contact" nonsense isn't mentioned. The underlying thought by the people who matter is if you are attacking in the area you do what the hell you can to fall over and win a pen. If you are a big team you win the pen, if you aren't then it's just tough I'm afraid. Just imagine the fuss Sky and United would be making if we had come back from 2 nil down with a very soft penalty and an offside goal? They'd be wanting Burnley thrown out of the league!! Fortunately, for them, it's never discussed as we (and any other smaller club) would never win that pen and we would have had the goal disallowed for offside.

It really is frustrating!

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:11 pm

A challenge like that last season would probably have been waved away but unfortunately it is the current flavour. It hasn't been helped by Salah throwing himself to the ground when the wind speed gets above 2mph.

We move on and one day we may get one ourself if we try to run in the box.

Foulthrow · Post by **Foulthrow** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:13 pm

I wonder if there would be any merit in saying if you dive to win a pen and the ref views it as a dive a penalty gets awarded to the opposition instead?

SussexDon1inIreland · Post by **SussexDon1inIreland** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:07 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Waq8J6mrWr8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think it's a Theatrical dive

UTC

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:12 pm

I think it was a soft pen. Hand on shoulder and the boy's knees buckle. Hendrick should know better though I guess. Ref was desperate to give them a pen.

Darnhill Claret · Post by **Darnhill Claret** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:31 pm

If you hold, pull or push an opponent a penalty should be awarded. There is nothing about how powerful the contact should be. Therefore a gentle push, a medium push and a violent push should each be treated the same. Equally a pull does not have to be a certain strength before it is considered to qualify as a pull. It does not have to be a violent pull. A clever sneaky pull that is often penalised outside the penalty area, is a penalty when inside the penalty area.

SussexDon1inIreland · Post by **SussexDon1inIreland** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:35 pm

Why then at corners are the rules different??

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:38 pm

you cant have it both ways - if Lingard can win a penalty because of Hendrick's hand then Bardsley should have won a free kick after being climbed on for the equaliser, but we all know that attackers who throw themselves to the floor to fool the officials get the decisions because they know simulation isn't actually punished; whereas there's no benefit to a defender throwing themselves to the floor as they will likely concede a goal if they do.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:50 pm

Darnhill Claret wrote:If you hold, pull or push an opponent a penalty should be awarded. There is nothing about how powerful the contact should be. Therefore a gentle push, a medium push and a violent push should each be treated the same. Equally a pull does not have to be a certain strength before it is considered to qualify as a pull. It does not have to be a violent pull. A clever sneaky pull that is often penalised outside the penalty area, is a penalty when inside the penalty area.

Do you distinguish between a touch and a push? If so, how? If not, should it be a penalty every time a player touches another with hand or arm?

Goodclaret · Post by **Goodclaret** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:27 pm

SussexDon1inIreland wrote:Why then at corners are the rules different??

It would be brilliant if any contact meant falling/gaining a free kick/pen. It would be like skittles - ball comes in, every player falls over and ball goes out of play. Every player screaming "contact" at the ref

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:15 pm

Yes its complicated and yes loads of grey areas and inconsistency etc but basically it all boils down to one thing for me :

Did Lingard cheat / attempt to deceive the referee ?

The answer is yes he did.

Since there appears to be another rule around contact (however minimal) which overrides the fact he cheated then the rules need to be changed or as a club we accept that this is part of the game and send all our players on an incentive cheating / diving course. All the media can then shut up about it and we all get on with it.....because right now as a club we seem to be taking a stance that nobody else cares about and its to our detriment.

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:16 pm

Goodclaret wrote:It would be brilliant if any contact meant falling/gaining a free kick/pen. It would be like skittles - ball comes in, every player falls over and ball goes out of play. Every player screaming "contact" at the ref

This will be the case before very long with the way that FIFA are directing the game. All contact penalised one way or another even with a tackle when a player wins the ball (this is happening already), every handball penalised whether intentional or not etc., etc. and all aided by VAR --I can't wait!

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:22 pm

TVC15 wrote:Yes its complicated and yes loads of grey areas and inconsistency etc but basically it all boils down to one thing for me :

Did Lingard cheat / attempt to deceive the referee ?

The answer is yes he did.

Since there appears to be another rule around contact (however minimal) which overrides the fact he cheated then the rules need to be changed or as a club we accept that this is part of the game and send all our players on an incentive cheating / diving course. All the media can then shut up about it and we all get on with it.....because right now as a club we seem to be taking a stance that nobody else cares about and its to our detriment.

Is it decieving the referee if a foul has been committed?

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:33 pm

Tall Paul wrote:Is it decieving the referee if a foul has been committed?

In my book it is yes because by exaggerating the impact of any contact or foul the only reason for doing this must be you are trying to deceive the referee that it is worse than it is....and that is cheating.
So in the same way I player thinks he is increasing the chances of his team getting a penalty by cheating then turn this on its head and decrease (or eradicate) the chances of him getting a penalty by penalising him for cheating.....surely after a few referees penalise the players they will not risk cheating again. If its a genuine foul then they will get a penalty by doing nothing other than what they were doing "naturally".

I do think that the "contact" laws need to be made more clear / or possibly changed. If the contact is so slight that it is no way impeding the player is this a penalty...it does not seem like it is a foul anywhere else on the pitch. Even if a player deliberately puts his hand on a player then there is a massive inconsistency in what happens depending on who is refereeing, where it takes place on the pitch and of course which team it is !!

Svenster · Post by **Svenster** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:46 pm

Three words:

Vulcan. Death. Grip.

and you all missed it.

...after a bit of googling I think that should be Vulcan Nerve Pinch. The death grip has another, altogether unsavoury meaning.

Roosterbooster · Post by **Roosterbooster** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:02 pm

Not as soft as the pen given to Sevilla against Barca tonight, which they deservedly missed

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:02 pm

It was as pen, but Lingard made sure the ref knew it by milking it (not crime unfortunately) and Hendrick is the one who really wants bollocking because he's no need to grab at him! Clown!!

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:20 pm

Liverpool game - just now.
Tiny bit of contact they said so should not be a penalty. Asked an ex ref for his view he agreed.
On replay clearly stood on his foot and Liverpool player did not exaggerate - he was on his way to falling anyway.

As commentator said completely confusing and many refs would have given that and none of em know what the actual rule is - players, refs, none of em

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:07 pm

If you watch the penalty incident again you will see that Lingard actually raises his arm so that he actually makes more contact with Hendrick than Hendrick does with him, that is the modern game --unfortunately.
I have been an official at many non-league games during the last century, however, I am at a total loss as to what is happening in the modern game. That 'challenge' last night would have got no response whatsoever from most officials I know because it was just two players coming together and was commonplace in the game.

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:19 pm

TVC15 wrote:Liverpool game - just now.
Tiny bit of contact they said so should not be a penalty. Asked an ex ref for his view he agreed.
On replay clearly stood on his foot and Liverpool player did not exaggerate - he was on his way to falling anyway.

As commentator said completely confusing and many refs would have given that and none of em know what the actual rule is - players, refs, none of em

On seeing it again.... He changed his mind!

AfloatinClaret · Post by **AfloatinClaret** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:34 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:If your momentum is going forward, especially in a situation where you are finely balanced and poised if someone pulls you or grabs you it is in the release that you can fall forward. Try holding gently on the back a babys top when they are trying to walk forward and let go and you will see them stumble forward off balance and fall over

OK it'll work, but I've always found that a good hard albeit discrete push, especially if you can hook a toe around their ankle too gets the rug rats down a whole lot quicker.

My disappointment with this and many similar incidents is that it's all too often the same players going down a 'little too easily' each week. Aside from any FA appraisals, I cannot believe that professional referees do not record and review every match they officiate and a lot of other games besides, with that knowledge they ought then to be thinking 'hang on just a second...?' before awarding the next one to the cheats.