Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[Damo]

That's the Remain campaign. Why are you posting what the Remain campaign said when their campaign didn't win? The campaign that won was the one saying Remain were lying. But now you're saying Remain were right all along. lol. OK. Then let's vote again and give them the credit they deserve by voting for them.

All I'm saying is be careful posting demonstrable lies.
Especially when it's so easy to prove you are lying.
Not only will you face the wrath of several remainers on here, you may end up in court

[Imploding Turtle]

Watch the video Charlie.
Boris, gove and leadsom are on there saying the same thing in the first minute or so

Sure. They're saying leave the single market, they NOT saying Leave with No Deal and on WTO terms. those are two very different things, and in fact Farage even implies a deal when he says every single country accesses the single market.

No Deal is not what was campaigned for and should not be enacted without a public vote for it.

[Imploding Turtle]

All I'm saying is be careful posting demonstrable lies.
Especially when it's so easy to prove you are lying.
Not only will you face the wrath of several remainers on here, you may end up in court

I wasn't lying. I didn't even post anything that was wrong. Your video doesn't show that i'm wrong and in fact supports my argument that they weren't campaigning on leaving with No Deal.

[Damo]

I wasn't lying. I didn't even post anything that was wrong. Your video doesn't show that i'm wrong and in fact supports my argument that they weren't campaigning on leaving with No Deal.

You are just as bad, intact probably worse than any other poster on here for ignoring facts because they ruin your argument.
If Ringo was doing what you do, there would be about 8 poters berating him for days about it and accusing him of being drunk

[Imploding Turtle]

You are just as bad, intact probably worse than any other poster on here for ignoring facts because they ruin your argument.
If Ringo was doing what you do, there would be about 8 poters berating him for days about it and accusing him of being drunk

What facts have I ignored. I ******* addressed your video. I watched it (the ******* opposite of "ignoring"), and explained why it doesn't refute my argument that there was no campaign for a no deal brexit.

Leaving the single market is not the same as a no deal brexit.

[elwaclaret]

I wanted the compromise, but the uber Brexiteers did not.

They now tell us that we always voted for this, when all the evidence suggests we didn't.

I'd be very careful about throwing absolutism around on either side on this one, but a minority want their way and won't let anything stop it.

Only one side threatens violence on the streets if it doesn't get its way

Only one side said it would pick up a rifle and head for the hills if it doesn't get its way

Only one side has a political party in which it is literally "One man, one vote".

You know your history elwa, so tell me, what does that tell you?

Must admit of the Tory leadership candidates, the one that looks like Gollum seems to talk the most sense, though talk is cheap and he may not be popular with the hard liners. Not that I will be involved in the process before a general election.

Always thought Labour had a far more democratic leadership process... but when politics get this messed up you end up with JC as a membership protest lol.

Fact is I won’t be crying myself to sleep should brexit not happen, no more than I was desperate for it to happen... but parliament (Cameron) abused the referendum process for his own ends and got bitten. A referendum is a major once or twice a lifetime final straw when parliament Reaches deadlock... Let the nation decide. Having asked the people there should have been no further debate from either side. This first part should never have left the offices of power again (Euro and Uk)... That is what a referendum is for. The detail is why the civil servants are paid so highly. I had no problem with an “as you were” solution, personally.. as long as the UK had the final say on what legislation we adopt in future.

History says Europe will turn tribal, it is too diverse for one size fits all. Liberals will pull for a comprehensive system, the nationalists will resent their progression being retarded..
Napoleon tried it, the Vienna Convention tried it to name but two... they chug along often for years working together... but each time it all ends with polarisation and war.

I was expecting a far bigger shift to what happened tif in the elections, Spain thankfully didn’t go Nationalist as my contacts over there clearly expected it too... that would have made the EU interesting. But it’s clearly still on the rise. I’d rather not be in the middle of it when it does.

[AndyClaret]

How many of those 52% voted leave instead of remain because the Leave campaign promised something that cannot be delivered? if it's more than 2% of all votes then Remain wins. And if Leave MPs won't let us measure that fact then it wouldn't be democratic to leave with no deal.

In democracy you don't get to redefine what it was you campaigned for after you win. Leave campaigned on there being a deal. That can't be delivered. Leaving with no deal would be just as undemocratic as remaining since no campaign for a no deal brexit won the referendum.

How many of the 48% voted remain because they believed the lies of the Remain campaign. Two can play this game Charlie.

[ClaretAndJew]

How many of the 48% voted remain because they believed the lies of the Remain campaign. Two can play this game Charlie.

Regardless of the finger pointing and who told which lies, the simple fact remains that the option of remaining in the EU meant that nothing would change, we would continue as we are. Nothing needed campaigning about on that front.

The leave campaign suggested various scenarios and have since also discussed the possibility of a No Deal, which wasn't indicated within the ballot when people voted.

That's why there's an issue

[elwaclaret]

Regardless of the finger pointing and who told which lies, the simple fact remains that the option of remaining in the EU meant that nothing would change, we would continue as we are. Nothing needed campaigning about on that front.

The leave campaign suggested various scenarios and have since also discussed the possibility of a No Deal, which wasn't indicated within the ballot when people voted.

That's why there's an issue

I’m sure you understand that to get ANY deal, no deal has to be the default position for Britain in any negotiation. I cannot decide if your position is I’ll thought out or disingenuous as it suits your remain position. I cannot believe anyone sane would play poker while holding their cards back to front, let alone a nation’s future

[Devils_Advocate]

I’m sure you understand that to get ANY deal, no deal has to be the default position for Britain in any negotiation. I cannot decide if your position is I’ll thought out or disingenuous as it suits your remain position. I cannot believe anyone sane would play poker while holding their cards back to front, let alone a nation’s future

You're like a dumped boyfriend who threatens to kill himself unless she takes you back. The trick is to really mean it and everything will come up smelling of roses

[Lancasterclaret]

You're like a dumped boyfriend who threatens to kill himself unless she takes you back. The trick is to really mean it and everything will come up smelling of roses

There isn't any option that comes out well for the UK.

But the absolute worst one is "No Deal".

Arguing for and against Brexit is one thing, arguing that this is an option is bloody silly and solves nothing.

[taio]

I’m sure you understand that to get ANY deal, no deal has to be the default position for Britain in any negotiation. I cannot decide if your position is I’ll thought out or disingenuous as it suits your remain position. I cannot believe anyone sane would play poker while holding their cards back to front, let alone a nation’s future

No deal is almost last resort for me. I certainly dont want that. But you raise a really good point about taking it off the table during negotiation. It makes no sense to me for the reason you allude to.

[elwaclaret]

No deal is almost last resort for me. I certainly dont want that. But you raise a really good point about taking it off the table during negotiation. It makes no sense to me for the reason you allude to.

In reality no deal is in no one’s interest, no matter what they tell you, EU or parliament. But as I say you don’t get any kind of deal without it.

[Lancasterclaret]

In reality no deal is in no one’s interest, no matter what they tell you, EU or parliament. But as I say you don’t get any kind of deal without it.

Right, so no one is going to use it, but its still a use in a negotiation?

I can't see any flaws in that at all.

[elwaclaret]

Right, so no one is going to use it, but its still a use in a negotiation?

I can't see any flaws in that at all.

No one wants it but it has to be the default position at the negotiation. Would you commit to buying a Burnley shirt without knowing the price? So why would you rule making our own way is worse than any possible deal? without this becoming another... that is why we should remain debate.

You have to have an all else fails position in negotiation Lancaster, you know that, stop trying to play me.

[aggi]

If Brexit has been good for one thing, it's the number of torturous analogies that people have dreamt up to try and make an incredibly complex subject seem simple.

[elwaclaret]

If Brexit has been good for one thing, it's the number of torturous analogies that people have dreamt up to try and make an incredibly complex subject seem simple.

Not really aggi the principle remains the same. Would you tell an employer how much you are willing to work for? Or would you wait and see what the best offer is before committing to work for them... same principle.

[Lancasterclaret]

No one wants it but it has to be the default position at the negotiation. Would you commit to buying a Burnley shirt without knowing the price? So why would you rule making our own way is worse than any possible deal? without this becoming another... that is why we should remain debate.

You have to have an all else fails position in negotiation Lancaster, you know that, stop trying to play me.

Er, you do know that Brexit is slightly more complicated than buying a Burnley shirt (I know the club shop get some pelters, but crikey!)

The last resort of "We'll **** our economy if we don't get what we want" isn't a negotiating strategy. Full stop.

[aggi]

Not really aggi the principle remains the same. Would you tell an employer how much you are willing to work for? Or would you wait and see what the best offer is before committing to work for them... same principle.

I'm not particularly picking on yours, there are loads of them on both sides of the debate and they're all ****.

The principle would be the same so long as it was caveated with a whole variety of extra criteria (how much do you need the shirt, how opaque are your preparations for not getting the shirt, are there even other shirts available, would the cost of the shirt be outweighed by opportunities you will miss out on if you don't have that shirt, etc)

[AndyClaret]

Regardless of the finger pointing and who told which lies, the simple fact remains that the option of remaining in the EU meant that nothing would change, we would continue as we are. Nothing needed campaigning about on that front.

The leave campaign suggested various scenarios and have since also discussed the possibility of a No Deal, which wasn't indicated within the ballot when people voted.

That's why there's an issue

Yes but what type of remain were we voting for ? An EU army ? Joining the Euro ? Ever closer union ?

And don't say we have a veto.

[Lancasterclaret]

Yes but what type of remain were we voting for ? An EU army ? Joining the Euro ? Ever closer union ?

And don't say we have a veto.

Yeah, don't say what makes the question I've posed totally ridiculous.

[elwaclaret]

I'm not particularly picking on yours, there are loads of them on both sides of the debate and they're all ****.

The principle would be the same so long as it was caveated with a whole variety of extra criteria (how much do you need the shirt, how opaque are your preparations for not getting the shirt, are there even other shirts available, would the cost of the shirt be outweighed by opportunities you will miss out on if you don't have that shirt, etc)

That is why there are negotiations. But I maintain you do not get a good deal no matter what it is if you approach it from a position of weakness, having a leader who is idealistically opposed to what she is doing is hardly showing strength and conviction. We are where we are. There are three options - a strong leader with a deal strong enough for parliament to admit its as good as its going to get, at least. We drop out with no deal because the EU (now with more Nationalist sympathisers) throw us out. Or we go to a second referendum... the holy grail of remainers. Even in the event of an about turn ( which I just don’t see) you end up with a massive surge in Nationalism with all that entails. I wouldn’t personally like to pick the winner at the moment... but I’m pretty sure I’d be working damned hard to get it sorted... and that means negotiation.

[martin_p]

Yes but what type of remain were we voting for ? An EU army ? Joining the Euro ? Ever closer union ?

And don't say we have a veto.

Don’t mention the veto! It ruins the whole ‘we don’t have any control over our future’ argument.

[martin_p]

That is why there are negotiations. But I maintain you do not get a good deal no matter what it is if you approach it from a position of weakness, having a leader who is idealistically opposed to what she is doing is hardly showing strength and conviction. We are where we are. There are three options - a strong leader with a deal strong enough for parliament to admit its as good as its going to get, at least. We drop out with no deal because the EU (now with more Nationalist sympathisers) throw us out. Or we go to a second referendum... the holy grail of remainers. Even in the event of an about turn ( which I just don’t see) you end up with a massive surge in Nationalism with all that entails. I wouldn’t personally like to pick the winner at the moment... but I’m pretty sure I’d be working damned hard to get it sorted... and that means negotiation.

Ok, so it’s back to the tried and trusted method of thinking this will be the ‘easiest deal in history’ and that the EU ‘needs us more than we need them’ as a negotiation tactic then. That worked out well didn’t it.

[elwaclaret]

Ok, so it’s back to the tried and trusted method of thinking this will be the ‘easiest deal in history’ and that the EU ‘needs us more than we need them’ as a negotiation tactic then. That worked out well didn’t it.

Who said it was easy... it’s only easy when you roll over and play dead. And when was that ever employed in negotiation, rather than talked up for television sound bites?

[martin_p]

Who said it was easy... it’s only easy when you roll over and play dead. And when was that ever employed in negotiation, rather than talked up for television sound bites?

Well one of the people tasked with the negotiation for a start! That sort of arrogance always plays well in negotiations.

[Lancasterclaret]

Who said it was easy... it’s only easy when you roll over and play dead. And when was that ever employed in negotiation, rather than talked up for television sound bites?

So you think the UK negotiation team "rolled over and played dead?"

The red lines imposed by the Uk government hamstrung us in such a way that the deal would be crap.

At some stage, the UK is going to have to stop blaming the EU for everything, and start being honest with itself.

Today would be a bloody good day to start.

[elwaclaret]

So you think the UK negotiation team "rolled over and played dead?"

The red lines imposed by the Uk government hamstrung us in such a way that the deal would be crap.

At some stage, the UK is going to have to stop blaming the EU for everything, and start being honest with itself.

Today would be a bloody good day to start.

I don’t think the EU are at all to blame. I think they’ve done exactly the right thing and played to our weaknesses to put us in our place, and achieve there ultimate objective.

No there should be no red lines, especially ones thrown out for public consumption... including no deal.

[If it be your will]

.

[If it be your will]

,

[dsr]

I'm not particularly picking on yours, there are loads of them on both sides of the debate and they're all ****.

The principle would be the same so long as it was caveated with a whole variety of extra criteria (how much do you need the shirt, how opaque are your preparations for not getting the shirt, are there even other shirts available, would the cost of the shirt be outweighed by opportunities you will miss out on if you don't have that shirt, etc)

It doesn't matter how many caveats there are. It may be that you have double promised a dying child that you will buy it a shirt for its birthday, so leaving without a shirt will not happen. You still don't negotiate by going into the shop and tell the shopkeeper that no matter how much money he asks for, you will not leave without the shirt.

[aggi]

It doesn't matter how many caveats there are. It may be that you have double promised a dying child that you will buy it a shirt for its birthday, so leaving without a shirt will not happen. You still don't negotiate by going into the shop and tell the shopkeeper that no matter how much money he asks for, you will not leave without the shirt.

But in this case the shopkeeper knows that you haven't made any plans to buy a shirt from anyone else.

It's not like buying a football shirt. We can't recruit thousands of extra personnel or tender for the necessary systems and infrastructure secretly. The EU have a very good idea of what we have and haven't done.

I get that people want to pretend it's simple but surely the last three years have at least shown that it isn't like nipping down the shops.

[Imploding Turtle]

How many of the 48% voted remain because they believed the lies of the Remain campaign. Two can play this game Charlie.

Let's find out. Referendum: No Deal versus Remain.

[RingoMcCartney]

Okay, the coalition government managed to bring in The Health and Social Care Act 2012 as an EU member. This is an astonishingly pro-market, pro-privatisation piece of legislation. So pro-market, indeed, that Virgin managed to successfully sue the NHS when a trust simply decided to keep its services in house. We're well on the path you describe above already, and the EU certainly isn't going to change the direction of travel.

We could repeal this act, and then we'd fall back on https://www.nhsconfed.org/regions-and-e ... rocurement" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Surely the left haven't become so defeatist that the choice on health is either the US pro-private model or the EU pro-outsourced one? We have to at least hope for better than either.

You can have a welfare state.

You can have uncontrolled mass immigration.

You cannot have both.

[AndyClaret]

Yeah, don't say what makes the question I've posed totally ridiculous.

Yeah let's stay part of an organisation that wants to do certain things, and let's stop them from doing them. That's really going to end well in the long term.

[HieronymousBoschHobs]

This is my worry: everyone backing the 2nd ref is remain, and they assume they will win. However, it will only happen IMO if no-deal is on the ballot (perhaps as a 'negotiate a deal and, if that fails, leave with no deal' option) because reluctant MPs will only back it if they can sell it to their constituents.

Soft Brexit would make everyone happy, which would mean it is the definition of a compromise. I think that ship has sailed though.

That should have read 'make everyone UNhappy' (because nobody gets exactly what they want)

[RingoMcCartney]

Yeah let's stay part of an organisation that wants to do certain things, and let's stop them from doing them. That's really going to end well in the long term.

Chukka Ummuna, Anna Soubrey? (Remember them)

"Rather than walk away, we should remain in an body, that needs reforming , that we disagree with. We should remain and work from the inside to achieve better outcomes"

As they jump ship from the organisations they believe cannot change.

#should'vevotedLeave

[aggi]

You can have a welfare state.

You can have uncontrolled mass immigration.

You cannot have both.

This may be true (I'm not sure either way) but what does it have to do with the NHS and the EU?

[martin_p]

You can have a welfare state.

You can have uncontrolled mass immigration.

You cannot have both.

It’s a good job we don’t have the second then isn’t it.

[Lancasterclaret]

Yeah let's stay part of an organisation that wants to do certain things, and let's stop them from doing them. That's really going to end well in the long term.

You don't know its going to be everyone v the UK. And this is absolutely crucial, you don't know what the situation will be internationally in the future either.

The veto is there for exactly this reason, and to pretend that its not relevant because it completely invalidates your point is peak Brexit.

[AndrewJB]

It doesn't matter how many caveats there are. It may be that you have double promised a dying child that you will buy it a shirt for its birthday, so leaving without a shirt will not happen. You still don't negotiate by going into the shop and tell the shopkeeper that no matter how much money he asks for, you will not leave without the shirt.

Leaving without a deal, come what may, is exactly this. “We’re going to give you brexit, and it doesn’t matter how costly or damaging it might be...”

[RingoMcCartney]

It’s a good job we don’t have the second then isn’t it.

I can see why you voted Remain now.

[RingoMcCartney]

This may be true (I'm not sure either way) but what does it have to do with the NHS and the EU?

See above.

[BleedingClaret]

That last line is painfully naive.

It was a little tongue in cheek.
I thought Lancaster is gonna love that
The way it is at the moment is that the whole political scene is like being stuck in a fast food area of a service station during a national disaster and you know all the fare before you is rubbish but you gotta eat something.

[Lancasterclaret]

It was a little tongue in cheek.
I thought Lancaster is gonna love that
The way it is at the moment is that the whole political scene is like being stuck in a fast food area of a service station during a national disaster and you know all the fare before you is rubbish but you gotta eat something.

You got me there!

Your last line is spot on btw

[AndyClaret]

You don't know its going to be everyone v the UK. And this is absolutely crucial, you don't know what the situation will be internationally in the future either.

The veto is there for exactly this reason, and to pretend that its not relevant because it completely invalidates your point is peak Brexit.

It's unsustainable in the long term, it would come to a head eventually, better to be out now.

[Mala591]

If 'The Brexit Party' do evolve into a 'mainstream' centre-right political party (which seems highly likely at the moment) then what will their policies be?

By definition they will base their political future around being an independent country so initially their political priorities will focus on the following:

Independent international trade policy
Independent legal system
Independent immigration policy
Independent agricultural policy
Independent fisheries policy

To develop a comprehensive range of political policies will obviously take time and will need a lot of input from their new supporters.

Will they succeed or just disappear into oblivion once Brexit has been delivered (in whatever form that might be)?

[aggi]

If 'The Brexit Party' do evolve into a 'mainstream' centre-right political party (which seems highly likely at the moment) then what will their policies be?

Why does this seem likely?

I'd say it's more likely that the conservatives would evolve into a mainstream centre-right political party and the Brexit party would be to the right of them.

[AndrewJB]

Why does this seem likely?

I'd say it's more likely that the conservatives would evolve into a mainstream centre-right political party and the Brexit party would be to the right of them.

In my Canadian experience, if they end up keeping themselves and each other out of real power, they’ll merge

[Imploding Turtle]

If 'The Brexit Party' do evolve into a 'mainstream' centre-right political party (which seems highly likely at the moment) then what will their policies be?

...

Centre-right:



Nigel 'we need to privatise the NHS' Farage centre-right.



Ann 'science might solve the gays' Widdecombe centre-right.



You're delusional.