Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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Imploding Turtle
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:38 pm

Mala591 wrote:If 'The Brexit Party' do evolve into a 'mainstream' centre-right political party (which seems highly likely at the moment) then what will their policies be?

By definition they will base their political future around being an independent country so initially their political priorities will focus on the following:

Independent international trade policy
Independent legal system
Independent immigration policy
Independent agricultural policy
Independent fisheries policy

To develop a comprehensive range of political policies will obviously take time and will need a lot of input from their new supporters.

Will they succeed or just disappear into oblivion once Brexit has been delivered (in whatever form that might be)?

When you say "independent country" do you mean one that no longer has to obey the rules of trade deals that we negotiated as part of the EU? :lol:

I've got some news for you, but you're not going to like it. We're still going to have to obey the rules of trade deals we sign. The difference is that the rules we follow will be worse for us because our negotiating position is much, much weaker because we'll be entirely on our own. Why do you think the US think that NHS privatisation will be on the ******* table? :lol:

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:16 pm

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:23 pm

If it be your will wrote:You might be right in your theory, but first I need to check exactly what your theory is: Is your theory that, unless you are a superpower, there is no option for any independent country to exist on the globe without having to sign a trade deal that totally subjugates that country? That they will be forced to sell off their NHS, say?

It could be true, but it's a depressing thought if it is.

No. I'm saying the NHS will be on the table because the US ambassador says it will be, and we will be weak as ****. Them being a superpower has nothing to do with it. We will be negotiating from an incredibly weak position. We absolutely must get a trade deal with countries like the US. They don't need one with us. This means they will get to dictate most of the terms. It's pretty simple stuff, really. Either we have to put the NHS on the table, or they can just roll over us elsewhere, or even just not bother with a trade deal, which will be terrible for us.

We are weak as ****. It's hilarious.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:38 pm

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:01 pm

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:04 pm

If it be your will wrote:I have no doubt the US would want full access to NHS contracts as part of a deal. I've no doubt the Tories would actively go with this, too. That said, we already have a huge amount of services outsourced to the private sector - I wouldn't particularly have any more objection to US firms than I do to Virgin Healthcare, who already hold several large contracts.

But it's the bolded bit I'm interested in. Why can we not say 'no'? You think there is no other way than to be trapped in the EU or be bullied by the US? That it is basically impossible to trade largely based on WTO, and only sign trade agreements that are mutually beneficial? This would be too depressing for words if you're right.

(I'm not intentionally doing that "Are you saying..." tactic, and then saying something exactly the opposite to what you were saying, I'm genuinely interested.)
I don't think they would just want full access. I think they would want it to be abolished in its current form and have us more to an insurance based healthcare system. And they can just wait. They don't need a trade deal. In fact by refusing to negotiate with us it would make it much more likely that we would get a Prime Minister willing to abolish the NHS because our economy will grow worse and worse, and what newly formed political party do you think will be best placed to exploit a country with a population angry at the state of its economy and economic prospects? And what has the leader of that party said in the past about the NHS? He said, "I think we're going to have to think about healthcare very, very differently. And i think we're going to have to move to an insurance based system of healthcare".

We weren't trapped in the EU, our membership in the EU protected us from the predatory instincts of the ultra-capitalists of the world and the tendency of our right-wing governments to want to capitulate to them. Well, lol, with Prime Minister Farage at the head of our government you're going to find out just how important EU membership was to us. :lol: We just better hope a democrat wins in 2020 because if one doesn't then it means Russian election influence there is still working, and will continue to work because the Republicans keep blocking attempts to prevent it and President Trump's government will absolutely press it's negotiating advantage if we leave the EU. And with our weakening economy and tendency to believe liars and fake news if it's what we want to hear, then we're becoming easy pickings for the kind of far-right wing Prime Minister who would see our most important institution carved up and sold off to the oligarchs.

Euro-skeptics who seem to think that the EU was some massive neo-liberal hell compared to what life will be like outside it have absolutely no appreciation of what we're facing. Sure, some of the neo-liberal aspects of it could have done with changing and improving, but we're about to find out just how much the rest of it protected us.

And it's not just the NHS of course. Every aspect of our trade with the likes of the US are going to see us at a disadvantage. So American companies wanting to invest here are going to lobby the American government to demand better conditions for their business, and by better conditions i mean weaker rights for employees, less rights for consumers, lower expenses, lower corporate taxes, higher subsidies, weaker labour laws (hilariously probably including the ability to employ foreign workers cheaply). ******* all sorts of **** we're going to have to swallow because of how weak our negotiating position is.

We are so monumentally screwed, mate. :lol:

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:16 pm

Great to know you can predict all of this when we've not even left.

When you running for political office?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:23 pm

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:29 pm

Turtle just aims for the worstcase scenario and works down from there.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:29 pm

If it be your will wrote:Everything you say might happen. Most of what you say could happen as an EU member, though, if we actively chose this course (I can't immediately spot anything in your post EU rules would forbid). I'm not convinced we would be obligated (economically) to enter a FTA with a Trump US that demands any of the above, either. How things pan out outside the EU will depend enormously on who we elect into government afterwards - Farage will lead us to the above; with Corbyn it would be very different.

I'm not saying it's very likely, but if I squint hard enough I can just about imagine Corbyn being PM. It feels almost like all you can imagine is the certainty of a Farage or a Boris PM for ever more, and I don't think EU rules would protect us anyhow in that eventuality.
Yes. With Corbyn it'd be very different, briefly. But there's no way he'll be allowed to succeed and eventually we will get our far-right, ultra-capitalist government.

Or we can remain in the EU and get it anyway. but thank **** for Gina Miller and her court case that says the Prime Minister cannot unilaterally withdraw us from the EU. Because without that, even if we did remain in the EU, PM Farage could just withdraw us without the approval of anyone else. even after we've voted to Remain. And then everything i described above will come to pass with Trump, Putin and Farage controlling us.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:48 pm

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:08 pm

If it be your will wrote:I've just been comparing US workers' rights (e.g. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/our-w ... ers-rights" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) with base-case EU minimum standards. The EU beats US on maternity rights, no question (14w paid v 12w unpaid), but other than that there's not much in it. The EU has no minimum wage requirement, no requirement for free healthcare, and only the same 48h maximum working week. If anything, US standards are probably marginally superior to worst-case EU standards.

Either way, there's an awful lot a right-wing EU government can do, if it wanted to. Yet the other way round - towards the left - I look at Corbyn's perfectly reasonable manifesto, and nearly all of it is, at the very least, 'problematic' under EU law (more like 'impossible', by my own estimation).

Yep. the EU doesn't have things like a minimum wage requirement. But we do. And since we can't rely on the EU's negotiating power we're going to have to make up the negotiation deficit elsewhere, which means things like the minimum wage becomes negotiable.

And what makes you think US workers' rights are going to be minimum standard we'll have to implement for a free trade deal?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:21 pm

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:32 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Yep. the EU doesn't have things like a minimum wage requirement. But we do. And since we can't rely on the EU's negotiating power we're going to have to make up the negotiation deficit elsewhere, which means things like the minimum wage becomes negotiable.

And what makes you think US workers' rights are going to be minimum standard we'll have to implement for a free trade deal?
How likely is it, do you think, that before the USA will agree free trade so they can sell us more goods, they will insist on the UK abolishing the minimum wage so that our goods can compete better with theirs? I would have thought that it was in the US's interest that workers here get paid more than workers there, because it would put the price of our exports up. Or are you abandoning logic and just working on the basis that the USA is evil?

I know you like links and sources and you really object when people put up supposition and guesswork without evidence. So I would like to see your link that suggests the USA is likely to impose irrelevant domestic policy requirements on the UK before they will sign a deal.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:38 pm

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:44 pm

If it be your will wrote:That's a good point.

I suppose, theoretically, if their own companies became major players in the UK, and were repatriating profits to the US, they might want to use us as some sort of cheap factory to export globally, but I agree that seems a stretch.
It's a big stretch. Mexico is first port of call for cheap factory workers, and there are a lot of Mexicans.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:00 am

If it be your will wrote:I've just been comparing US workers' rights (e.g. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/our-w ... ers-rights" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) with base-case EU minimum standards. The EU beats US on maternity rights, no question (14w paid v 12w unpaid), but other than that there's not much in it. The EU has no minimum wage requirement, no requirement for free healthcare, and only the same 48h maximum working week. If anything, US standards are probably marginally superior to worst-case EU standards.

Either way, there's an awful lot a right-wing EU government can do, if it wanted to. Yet the other way round - towards the left - I look at Corbyn's perfectly reasonable manifesto, and nearly all of it is, at the very least, 'problematic' under EU law (more like 'impossible', by my own estimation).
I spend a lot of time working in the US and one of the main differences from talking to people there is holidays. There is no statutory minimum number of days and no requirement to pay salary for public holidays. It's pretty common for people to only take a dozen days off over the course of a year.

(By the way, I haven't forgotten about the privatisation stuff, just not had the chance to read it yet.)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:01 am

If it be your will wrote:That's a good point.

I suppose, theoretically, if their own companies became major players in the UK, and were repatriating profits to the US, they might want to use us as some sort of cheap factory to export globally, but I agree that seems a stretch.
I imagine the issue would be more UK firms struggling to compete against the US and pushing for an abolition of the minimum wage.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:03 am

But I don't honestly believe the UK is in such desperate need of a FTA with the US that we would allow them to force us to adopt working practices below even their own standards. I
It isn't now. But it there is a reason the US wants us to go "No Deal", and thats because we'd be absolutely desperate for an FTA with the US.

If we are desperate, then we'd have to make concessions to get it done quickly*

*and thats where the issues would start. Do we know what is off the table in a UK-US negotiation yet?*8

** No, because its all "US-UK trade deal would be ace, far better than that stuff you get from the EU, who don't even speak English and whose laws stop you doing anything

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:04 am

dsr wrote:How likely is it, do you think, that before the USA will agree free trade so they can sell us more goods, they will insist on the UK abolishing the minimum wage so that our goods can compete better with theirs? I would have thought that it was in the US's interest that workers here get paid more than workers there, because it would put the price of our exports up. Or are you abandoning logic and just working on the basis that the USA is evil?

I know you like links and sources and you really object when people put up supposition and guesswork without evidence. So I would like to see your link that suggests the USA is likely to impose irrelevant domestic policy requirements on the UK before they will sign a deal.
You'll just have to have some er, "belief" that it will all be fine.

"Belief" is certainly getting through a ton of work these past three years isn't it?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:52 am

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:02 am

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:10 am

If it be your will wrote:Yes, yes. My mistake - I didn't leave it out for political gain, just a simple oversight.

The EU guarantees 20 days leave (still not much), but that is indeed another area where the EU exceeds the US. It still seems there's a lot more EU rules preventing a shift to the left than there are preventing a shift to the right, though.
I'm pretty sure it's actually 28 days in the EU (although public holidays can make up those 28 days, hence the 20 in the UK).

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:14 am

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:15 am

If it be your will wrote:But there are countries in our own trading block with absolutely no minimum wage (compared to a very low US one). Presumably the same pressure to remove minimum wage legislation exists already - as a member of the EU. It's up workers to resist this.

And I'd like to say once more, I haven't quite grasped the desperate need to sign a FTA with the US at all, let alone one that is appallingly one-sided. We might actively choose to remove all these workers' protections - that depends on who we elect, but I would still contend that if the electorate actively chooses this path, there's very little in EU law preventing it anyway.
I'd agree that it's unlikely we'd do away with the minimum wage. My point was more that if it does go it is likely to be driven by UK companies.

If we leave the EU on no deal we're going to have to sign some trade deals with some big players and the US is the obvious one. There are only a handful of tiny countries in the world that solely operate on WTO rules and we wouldn't want to be one of them. On the other hand putting ourselves in that position gives us minimal leverage.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:16 am

If it be your will wrote:But there are countries in our own trading block with absolutely no minimum wage (compared to a very low US one). Presumably the same pressure to remove minimum wage legislation exists already - as a member of the EU. It's up workers to resist this.

And I'd like to say once more, I haven't quite grasped the desperate need to sign a FTA with the US at all, let alone one that is appallingly one-sided. We might actively choose to remove all these workers' protections - that depends on who we elect, but I would still contend that if the electorate actively chooses this path, there's very little in EU law preventing it anyway.
I've highlighted that bit.

Its being held up as a viable alternative to the CU and the SM by the Brexiteers.

Part of the problem with all this is that its involves some very complex stuff on all sides and there is no way that your average voter has the time or the inclination to so the required research, so they rely on what they are told.

Which then goes back to the issue of what exactly are they being told and for whose benefit.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:42 am

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:02 am

Well, Canada, Mexico and the US signed NAFTA before Trump came in.

Trump came in and forced Canada and Mexico to renegotiate NAFTA to be more favourable to the US.

Canada and Mexico really had no choice, because the US is their biggest trading partner and it would have been potentially catastrophic for both to stand their ground.

Basically, we'd be in the same boat (we already are due to widespread support for a party that advocates "No Deal" with our biggest trading partner)

I've nothing against an FTA with the US, but I'd be a lot happier about having one with the back up of a comprehensive agreement with the EU first.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:33 am

If it be your will wrote:I got it from here. If it's wrong, I apologise on their behalf https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-and-paid-holidays/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

edit - on closer inspection it looks like it is actually '4 weeks', so if you work every day it would be 28; if you work a 5 day week, it's 20.
Yep, looks like it's only 20 days. Just goes to show I shouldn't believe politicians (and my HR dept!).

There are quite a few other EU regulations that the US doesn't have (e.g. no legal requirements for breaks, no requirements for night shift workers).

In itself that isn't important, it's unlikely that the US is going to force labour requirements on us that would make us, on the face of it, more competitive. What it does possibly do is give an indication on where the UK may like to move in terms of employment rights post-Brexit.

The UK have regularly voted against the EU in terms of employment rights (e.g. minimum amount of paid leave, maternity pay, Acquired Rights Directive, agency worker rights) as the governments (both Conservative and {at least New} Labour) have like to view us as having a flexible labour market and there are plenty of interviews out there saying that. There has also been significant resistance to committing the UK to match EU rights going forwards.

Given the above, there is a good chance that worker's rights will be "streamlined" post-brexit and the US would be one template.

Obviously if you're looking at a Corbyn-driven post-Brexit scenario then things would be a bit different but, given the fact that they've still struggled to overtake the current shambles that is the Tory government, I don't have much confidence in that happening.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:39 am

If it be your will wrote:I keep scanning around other free trade agreements (ASEAN, Mercosur, NAFTA...) and I can't obviously see any that have deeply intrusive conditions on internal matters. They're all, on the face of it, general agreements to reduce cross-border hurdles to trade. I can't fathom why, all of a sudden, entering a FTA with the US (if, indeed, we even need do this) by necessity would involve selling off the NHS, or obliterating workers' rights, or whatever, as a condition of the agreement. This isn't the normal way of doing things.

It's as if our own experience of the SM (which has enormous influence over what you do inside your own borders) has led us all to believe all FTA are similar to the SM. But I'm just not seeing any evidence for that.
They're doom mongering on purpose, they don't want to see any positives, just the negatives to suit their narrative just like they've been doing since the referendum.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:45 am

If it be your will wrote:I keep scanning around other free trade agreements (ASEAN, Mercosur, NAFTA...) and I can't obviously see any that have deeply intrusive conditions on internal matters. They're all, on the face of it, general agreements to reduce cross-border hurdles to trade. I can't fathom why, all of a sudden, entering a FTA with the US (if, indeed, we even need do this) by necessity would involve selling off the NHS, or obliterating workers' rights, or whatever, as a condition of the agreement. This isn't the normal way of doing things.

It's as if our own experience of the SM (which has enormous influence over what you do inside your own borders) has led us all to believe all FTA are similar to the SM. But I'm just not seeing any evidence for that.
I know that trying to get Canadian healthcare included has been a big battleground for NAFTA since the first deal.

I would think that most of the concerns around the NHS come from the TTIP negotiations. There were a lot of concerns that this would open up the NHS to part privatisation when it was being discussed https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... leading-qc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It isn't a matter of the NHS being privatised as a whole, it's a matter of private companies being able to tender for portions of NHS work. Inevitably this will lead to private companies taking on the most profitable areas and leaving the NHS to struggle on with the necessary but costly areas.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:50 am

So what's the difference to now then with the NHS?
Private ambulance firms, work being farmed out to private hospitals for the last 20 years and those won't be the only things.

The NHS loses money like it's going out of fashion, if some work is tendered out, then doesn't that help streamline certain aspects of it and reduces overheads?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:59 am

I think people are looking too closely at the detail of the NHS. The point of the NHS is that treatment is free and available for everyone. It is not a necessary part of the ethos that the manner of supplying this must be with employees paid directly by the State and not through private companies.

If you break your leg, which is more important - that an ambulance comes to take you to hospital, or that the ambulance is driven by someone directly employed by the NHS? If you need your appendix out, which is more important - that the doctor concerned is directly employed by the NHS, or that the appendix is removed?

It wouldn't matter if the NHS employs no-one at all and all the work is done by private contractors. (Going by past history, the contracts offered to private contractors may be ruinously expensive and badly drafted, but that's a failure of management in practice; not a point of principle.) The principle of the NHS is thatit provides free healthcare. The rest is detail.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:20 pm

If it be your will wrote:But there are countries in our own trading block with absolutely no minimum wage (compared to a very low US one). Presumably the same pressure to remove minimum wage legislation exists already - as a member of the EU. It's up workers to resist this.

And I'd like to say once more, I haven't quite grasped the desperate need to sign a FTA with the US at all, let alone one that is appallingly one-sided. We might actively choose to remove all these workers' protections - that depends on who we elect, but I would still contend that if the electorate actively chooses this path, there's very little in EU law preventing it anyway.
There is a tendency within rightwing politics of using times of upheaval to push through legislation and policies the voting public might reject during ordinary times. This was done by the last government imposing austerity, and there's no reason not to think it'll happen again after a no deal exit from the EU. Most of the media back them - all the stories of welfare families and disabled people living high on the hog on the backs of "hard working taxpayers" for example - and as always they present whatever reduction in working rights or environmental standards they're trying to enact as "the only possible solution" to get us out of the crisis.

So on the one hand you're right that Britain could move forward as an independent trading nation, and even become more progressive once we leave the EU (though depending on how we do so will bring greater or less economic instability); however when we listen to what Tory leadership candidates are saying and have said in the past, there is nothing at all progressive on the menu.

A Corbyn government would be the most radical since Attlee and I think would do a lot of good, however if he were trying to bring about positive change while at the same time trying to sail the country through Brexit related economic storms, then such a project would be in danger of being discredited. The press will be on him from day one, and everything will be laid at his door.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Chip Harrison » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:32 pm

aggi wrote:Yep, looks like it's only 20 days. Just goes to show I shouldn't believe politicians (and my HR dept!).

There are quite a few other EU regulations that the US doesn't have (e.g. no legal requirements for breaks, no requirements for night shift workers).

In itself that isn't important, it's unlikely that the US is going to force labour requirements on us that would make us, on the face of it, more competitive. What it does possibly do is give an indication on where the UK may like to move in terms of employment rights post-Brexit.

The UK have regularly voted against the EU in terms of employment rights (e.g. minimum amount of paid leave, maternity pay, Acquired Rights Directive, agency worker rights) as the governments (both Conservative and {at least New} Labour) have like to view us as having a flexible labour market and there are plenty of interviews out there saying that. There has also been significant resistance to committing the UK to match EU rights going forwards.

Given the above, there is a good chance that worker's rights will be "streamlined" post-brexit and the US would be one template.

Obviously if you're looking at a Corbyn-driven post-Brexit scenario then things would be a bit different but, given the fact that they've still struggled to overtake the current shambles that is the Tory government, I don't have much confidence in that happening.
Its 28 days or 5.6 weeks minimum for a full time worker in the UK. This is normally 20 days annual leave and 8 statutory holidays. Most employers however give 31, 32 or 33 days.
The NHS gives far more holidays than this, as does the public sector.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:49 pm

Chip Harrison wrote:Its 28 days or 5.6 weeks minimum for a full time worker in the UK. This is normally 20 days annual leave and 8 statutory holidays. Most employers however give 31, 32 or 33 days.
The NHS gives far more holidays than this, as does the public sector.
NHS gives up to 8 weeks holiday with time served (used to be about 10 years ago)

I remember my interview for working there when they apologised for only being able to offer five weeks holidays to which my cheery reply was

"Not a problem, never had more than four weeks holiday before!"

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:50 pm

dsr wrote:I think people are looking too closely at the detail of the NHS. The point of the NHS is that treatment is free and available for everyone. It is not a necessary part of the ethos that the manner of supplying this must be with employees paid directly by the State and not through private companies.

If you break your leg, which is more important - that an ambulance comes to take you to hospital, or that the ambulance is driven by someone directly employed by the NHS? If you need your appendix out, which is more important - that the doctor concerned is directly employed by the NHS, or that the appendix is removed?

It wouldn't matter if the NHS employs no-one at all and all the work is done by private contractors. (Going by past history, the contracts offered to private contractors may be ruinously expensive and badly drafted, but that's a failure of management in practice; not a point of principle.) The principle of the NHS is thatit provides free healthcare. The rest is detail.
Has the marketisation of the NHS brought value for money?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:56 pm

AndrewJB wrote:Has the marketisation of the NHS brought value for money?
I doubt it. It looks very much like the administration and financial management of the NHS has traditionally been poor, and the spate of public-private finance a few years back was appallingly handled.

But that's not the point. The point of the NHS is to provide free health care to all. If the best and most efficient way to do that is by having private companies run the hospitals, then that's the way it should be done. If the best and most efficient way is to have no private input whatsoever, then that's the way it should be done. But the supreme overriding purpose of the NHS is to cure the sick.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:14 pm

Vince Cable is a man who has never accepted the referendum result. He's worked tirelessly to stop the largest single expression of democracy this country has ever witnessed.

He says, " Trump ( democratically elected) doesn't share the same values as me!"

I think you may be onto something there Vincent old boy!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:18 pm

Hordes of the Great Unwashed on the Anti Trump gathering, having to endure heavy rain.

God works in mysterious ways.......

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:28 pm

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Last edited by If it be your will on Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:31 pm

So you are saying that there are no left governments in the EU?

Or that the ones that are they are not allowed to pursue left wing policies?

I'm not 100% sure where you are driving at here to be honest

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:36 pm

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:46 pm

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Last edited by If it be your will on Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CombatClaret » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:49 pm

A reminder of the realities of WTO and 'trading with the rest of the world'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1DsMnWLtME

"193 members of the UN, of them only 35 are seen by the IMF as Advanced Economies in the world like our own, of them 27 are in Europe. None in Africa, none in Latin America, none in the Caribbean, four in the whole continent of Asia. They're all far away, take a long time to get to on cargo ships."

We'll be fine trading under WTO rules because 80% of the world does it.
"80% of the world is poor... 54 countries in Africa... The GDP of all those countries (all the gold from South Africa, Diamonds from Botswana, all the oil from Angola) put together is half the GDP of France"

"What are we going to sell them, we only make luxury goods? We make goods and services for affluent people, there's not a farmer in Chad who really needs financial services from someone in Canary Wharf."

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:53 pm

If it be your will wrote:There are no EU government's running a fully state owned monopoly railway system
There are no EU governments that run a fully in-house, non-outsourced NHS
There are no EU governments with a National Investment Bank preferentially lending to their own companies
There are no EU governments with state monopolies in utilities
There are no EU governments resisting continent-wide labour arbitrage
There are no EU governments overtly propping up strategic companies, such as British Steel, with government subsidies

I don't know your definition of 'left-wing', so it's a difficult question. But does this answer it?
Pretty much!

I know we are going over old ground here but the chances of a lexit are not enough to compensate the real risk of a much more right wing version of Brexit, especially when you consider the amount of MPs backing it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:21 pm

CombatClaret wrote:A reminder of the realities of WTO and 'trading with the rest of the world'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1DsMnWLtME

"193 members of the UN, of them only 35 are seen by the IMF as Advanced Economies in the world like our own, of them 27 are in Europe. None in Africa, none in Latin America, none in the Caribbean, four in the whole continent of Asia. They're all far away, take a long time to get to on cargo ships."

We'll be fine trading under WTO rules because 80% of the world does it.
"80% of the world is poor... 54 countries in Africa... The GDP of all those countries (all the gold from South Africa, Diamonds from Botswana, all the oil from Angola) put together is half the GDP of France"

"What are we going to sell them, we only make luxury goods? We make goods and services for affluent people, there's not a farmer in Chad who really needs financial services from someone in Canary Wharf."
I don't think that they are poor because they use WTO rules. Cause and effect are being confused.

One thing that needs to be mentioned (again) is that trading under WTO rules does not exclude trade with the EU. We can still do both. Obviously the increase in tariffs and the increase in paperwork will affect the volume of trade, just as the difference in exchange rates affects trade - we are still feeling the effects of ignoring the economists about not joining the Euro. (Though the clamour to join isn't as strong as it used to be.)

I doubt that anyone apart from your Youtuber thinks that attempting to sell financial services to farmers in Chad is a fair representation of what post-EU Britain is likely to do.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:31 pm

"No deal is better than a bad deal" Teresa May scores of times.


"We will leave the EU on the 29th of March 2019" , over a hundred times.

"I'm a woman of my word" Teresa May, Tuesday 4th June 2019.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:34 pm

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:39 pm

If it be your will wrote:But the whole point of my last 15-odd posts is that the EU does not protect us, hardly at all, from full-on right wing economic policies! Why would an economic socialist campaign to remain in something that sacrifices what they want, without any protection in the other direction?

If, as a lefty, I were to mount a campaign* to remain in the EU, I wouldn't go anywhere near workers' rights, the NHS, education, railways, utilities, British Steel, WTO, TTIP, banking or any other area of the economy, because there's barely anything in the EU rules to help you out, only rules to ruin your argument. As for its ability to reform to meet changing circumstances, God no. I wouldn't even think about touching democratic accountability, either.

If I was a lefty desperate to stay in the EU, I'd concentrate solely on EU consumer standards, gender equality laws, and environmental regulations. Possibly throw in a bit about individual human rights, too. These aren't exactly faultless either, but at least the EU rules give you something to work with.

(*I have done this, by the way. Many times. I always consider it vitally important to run the totally opposite position in your own head, before attempting to make your own. As the great maxim goes: A person that only knows half the argument barely even knows that half)
But the fundamental point you made first is that you are willing to risk a right wing government so you eventually might get a left wing one, and that you regard a right wing Brexit as the gateway to a left wing government that can do all you want it to do.

You are fully entitled to hold that view and I don't have the depth of knowledge on that part of the EU to really argue with you about it, but to me its too risky to even contemplate.

Dare I say you are being idealistic rather than pragmatic? Or am I being too idealistic, not thinking that your pragmatism is so pragmatic you are willing to counterence even that!

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