Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[Lancasterclaret]

Trump says the NHS is on the table for UK-US trade talks.

So there you go

Brexit always was more about "selling it off to the US private healthcare firms" and less about "£350 million a week in our NHS"

[If it be your will]

.

[Lancasterclaret]

Just so we're absolutely categorically clear, I have never, ever said I would vote for a right-wing government in a general election. For as long as Corbyn is there, I would only ever consider Labour in a general election.

I never said vote though, but you would be willing to vote for a Brexit led by Farage, if Corbyn hasn't got a chance of winning.

Which he hasn't btw, and I think both you and me know that now.

Not criticising btw, just interested to see just how far those on both the left and right will go to get their personal bespoke Brexit. Answer is its pretty far!

[dsr]

Trump says the NHS is on the table for UK-US trade talks.

So there you go

Brexit always was more about "selling it off to the US private healthcare firms" and less about "£350 million a week in our NHS"

To be fair, he also said that US Air Force deployment was on the menu, and the Fort Knox gold reserves, and Amtrak, and Northern Ireland. He was asked about specifically would the NHS be ruled out of trade talks, and he said nothing was ruled out. So he hasn't ruled out discussion of the repatriation of the White House to be a UK embassy.

[Lancasterclaret]

To be fair, he also said that US Air Force deployment was on the menu, and the Fort Knox gold reserves, and Amtrak, and Northern Ireland. He was asked about specifically would the NHS be ruled out of trade talks, and he said nothing was ruled out. So he hasn't ruled out discussion of the repatriation of the White House to be a UK embassy.

Even by your whataboutery standards, that is **** poor.

But yeah, it was all "Project Fear"

"Project Reality" is here and its dancing stark naked in front of you, and you still refuse to see it.

Standard sadly

[dsr]

Even by your whataboutery standards, that is **** poor.

But yeah, it was all "Project Fear"

"Project Reality" is here and its dancing stark naked in front of you, and you still refuse to see it.

Standard sadly

And even by your standards, judging the Brexit vote by what Trump says is poor as well. And I did see "Project Reality" dancing stark naked on the very first post of the thread, and I wasn't impressed.

[JohnMcGreal]

The last few days of the Trump circus ought to open a few people's eyes to what is at stake here. Forget the sound bites and the bickering. Just listen to what the U.S officials are saying. It's right there in front of us. We're getting a glimpse of what we, as a weakened and isolated post-EU country, will be subjected to, and it isn't pretty.

With a bit of luck, this week will jolt a good number of people and will turn them against the patently idiotic decision to leave the EU.

[aggi]

It's fascinating how the same things are viewed depending on your position. Let's not forget, TTIP is a proposed agreement between the EU and the US, and the European Commission are fully behind its adoption (with small amounts of resistance by individual member states). TTIP is precisely the sort of thing Lexiters point towards as an indicator of the future trajectory of the EU, and a very good reason to leave!



Again, I'm not disputing where we might go outside the EU. I'm not saying that during the upheaval the right definitely won't run amok, because they might! What I'm saying is that these are things we would have to electorally consent to, and if we electorally consent to them, so be it - that's the way it goes in a democracy. But there is still nothing on this page that in any way persuades me the EU will save us if we actively choose to follow that path, because there's very little in EU law to stop any of these things happening. Yet on the flipside, there is a great big mountain of EU law preventing a move to the left, should we actively choose that path instead.

If, as a lefty, I'm being asked to campaign passionately for remaining in the EU (with all it's restrictions against left wing policy, and very few restrictions in the other direction), I'm not able to do it. It'd be such a useless victory. How can I possibly get behind something that rules out what I do want, but fails to rule out what I don't want?

You see where I am, here?

True, although TTIP in its previous form was eventually booted by the EU.

I'm not suggesting that the EU will protect us from being bullied, I'm suggesting that in the EU we will be one of the bullies. At the moment we're an influential voice in one of the world's largest trading blocs.

If we're on our own negotiating with the US or the EU they're going to capitalise on that and we're going to suffer. If we stay in the EU I don't think it's the EU's policies that are going to protect us, it's the size of it and the power it wields.

Having said that, I disagree that there aren't a lot of EU regulations designed to protect workers rights, consumer rights, the environment, human rights, etc If you compare the EU regulations to places like the USA or Singapore they are far stronger.

I see your dilemma, it's not one I suffer from as I'm more free market than nationalisation. Are there any major economies with state monopolies and strategic companies that they prop up. I was under the impression that the world as a whole was moving away from that kind of thing but I can't say I've much idea either way.

[aggi]

I doubt it. It looks very much like the administration and financial management of the NHS has traditionally been poor, and the spate of public-private finance a few years back was appallingly handled.

But that's not the point. The point of the NHS is to provide free health care to all. If the best and most efficient way to do that is by having private companies run the hospitals, then that's the way it should be done. If the best and most efficient way is to have no private input whatsoever, then that's the way it should be done. But the supreme overriding purpose of the NHS is to cure the sick.

There's a couple of issues though.

One is that there is evidence that private companies, with a responsibility for maximising shareholder return, may not be the best when it comes to patient care. The dialysis system in the US shows this for instance, outcomes are far worse for patients compared to the rest of the world as treating them is more profitable than curing them. Obviously that should be mitigated by good oversight but it's difficult to discover these things until a lot of people have died.

The second is that these private firms are only going to be putting in tenders for the profitable stuff. At the moment it's fiarly restricted what can be outsourced but if it's thrown wide open the consequences would be different.

I see what you're saying and it's a nice idea but unfortunately the reality doesn't always match up.

[AndyClaret]

Trump says the NHS is on the table for UK-US trade talks.

So there you go

Brexit always was more about "selling it off to the US private healthcare firms" and less about "£350 million a week in our NHS"

Do you think Obama would have said "nah you can keep your NHS"?

[Lancasterclaret]

Do you think Obama would have said "nah you can keep your NHS"?

Oh goody, more whataboutery

[Imploding Turtle]

Do you think Obama would have said "nah you can keep your NHS"?

Obama's party isn't heavily funded by the health insurance industry. The Republicans are beholden to them. And they're the people who would be lobbying their government for trade access.

[If it be your will]

.

[RingoMcCartney]

Chukka Ummuna, Heidi Allen re the EU.

"You shouldn't walk away from something if you believe it has faults . You should remain inside it and work to change it from within."

Cue leaving Labour and Tory parties respectively!

And now.

They've jumped ship from the Change UK Party!

You couldn't may it up !

Comedy Gold!

And now we have a party lead by Erratic Soubrey. What could possibly go wrong!!!!????

[Lancasterclaret]

Nope. Not even then. If Corbyn is still leader of Labour, whatever his chances, I'd vote Labour.

If, I don't know, David Miliband or Liz Kendall were in charge, well, then I might as well do anything. My level of intellectual engagement in politics would return to more or less zero again. I probably couldn't persuade myself it mattered who I voted for, so I'd probably vote for whatever made me laugh the most or something.

Apologies ITBYW, thought I'd seen that you'd vote for Brexit if Corbyn wasn't around.

[AndyClaret]

Oh goody, more whataboutery

I.e. you know I'm right.

[Imploding Turtle]

I.e. you know I'm right.

You're gonna ignore my post because you know it makes sense, aren't you?

[Lancasterclaret]

I.e. you know I'm right.

Nope, its whataboutery (again)

[AndyClaret]

You're gonna ignore my post because you know it makes sense, aren't you?

Nope, it would still be on the table.

[Imploding Turtle]

Nope, it would still be on the table.

I've presented some reasoning why that wouldn't be the case under a democratic president. Are you going to try and support your opinion with some kind of reasoning? Can you explain your thinking please? Maybe i'll agree with it.

[Bordeauxclaret]

The last few days of the Trump circus ought to open a few people's eyes to what is at stake here. Forget the sound bites and the bickering. Just listen to what the U.S officials are saying. It's right there in front of us. We're getting a glimpse of what we, as a weakened and isolated post-EU country, will be subjected to, and it isn't pretty.

With a bit of luck, this week will jolt a good number of people and will turn them against the patently idiotic decision to leave the EU.

Hopefully the ones with sense will see it.
The thick ones won’t.

[CrosspoolClarets]

The NHS is indeed on the table for trade talks - the Americans desperately want to get a bigger share of our drug expenditure.

I am led to believe that is their biggest aspiration.

A good thing. Increases competition and delivers better value for the taxpayer.......

.....but not the fun narrative of the day, sorry

[Spijed]

The NHS is indeed on the table for trade talks - the Americans desperately want to get a bigger share of our drug expenditure.

I am led to believe that is their biggest aspiration.

A good thing. Increases competition and delivers better value for the taxpayer.......

.....but not the fun narrative of the day, sorry

And what about those great deals where we have to accept lower food standards from America?

[AndyClaret]

And what about those great deals where we have to accept lower food standards from America?

Im in the US, just had a chlorinated chicken burger for lunch and had some hormone fed beef last night, delicious !

[CrosspoolClarets]

And what about those great deals where we have to accept lower food standards from America?

Not the point I am making. I am simply giving some advice on the NHS angle because it is commonly misunderstood to mean privatisation of our health service. The Yanks know full well that we would never contemplate that, buying some overflow capacity off them is literally all that we would do in that sense.

The U.K. drug bill expenditure is over £20bn if you take a wide definition and the turnover of the world’s biggest drug company is about £40bn. That is a massive lure. The NHS non-pay budget is already privatised in a sense, given that supply comes mainly from private companies.

On your wider point, it isn’t what I am on here to chat about today, but I would just say that there are pros and cons of any trade deal. We as a country need to decide which trade offs are acceptable.

[aggi]

The NHS is indeed on the table for trade talks - the Americans desperately want to get a bigger share of our drug expenditure.

I am led to believe that is their biggest aspiration.

A good thing. Increases competition and delivers better value for the taxpayer.......

.....but not the fun narrative of the day, sorry

An interesting point there.

Part of NAFTA 2.0 was in relation to pharmaceuticals and it was related to extending the time until drugs patents expire in Canada and Mexico. This would push the price of those drugs in Canada and Mexico up and reduce competition.

[PWBFC]

NHS gives up to 8 weeks holiday with time served (used to be about 10 years ago)

I remember my interview for working there when they apologised for only being able to offer five weeks holidays to which my cheery reply was

"Not a problem, never had more than four weeks holiday before!"

Glad you aren’t part of the Brexit negotiating team. Or perhaps you are

[CrosspoolClarets]

An interesting point there.

Part of NAFTA 2.0 was in relation to pharmaceuticals and it was related to extending the time until drugs patents expire in Canada and Mexico. This would push the price of those drugs in Canada and Mexico up and reduce competition.

You are well informed, as usual.

I’ve given some advice on modelling 5 year forecasts for health bodies recently, and what you suggest is one of the variables in the drug expenditure section. Some assumptions would make expenditure go down, and others would make it go up. I would personally apply in a stronger way the “crown use license” but I accept this is often politically unpalatable (and a national issue not a local one). I think competition is a good thing, as I said above, but we do have to be firm.

Ultimately this comes down to trade offs, it is likely that the Americans will indeed lobby for patent protection, we have counter arguments but the entire package is key - protection of U.K. jobs, increased tax revenue, etc. If the NHS does face more costs because we use it as a bargaining chip, I would expect government to increase health funding to compensate NHS trusts. The trouble is, they rarely do. This Chancellor certainly doesn’t.

[tiger76]

Chukka Ummuna, Heidi Allen re the EU.

"You shouldn't walk away from something if you believe it has faults . You should remain inside it and work to change it from within."

Cue leaving Labour and Tory parties respectively!

And now.

They've jumped ship from the Change UK Party!

You couldn't may it up !

Comedy Gold!

And now we have a party lead by Erratic Soubrey. What could possibly go wrong!!!!????

They clearly saw the direction of travel in the local and European elections,and suddenly had a damascene conversion.

Well! fancy that a politician putting their career ahead of principles.

I'll wager they still won't hold by-elections to test whether their constituents agree with their change of allegiances.

Unlike Mark Reckless and Douglas Carswell who at least put their seats on the line to gain more credence for their views.

I'll raise a glass on election night when these carpetbaggers are shown the door,they sum up exactly why trust in MP'S is at an all time low.

I note there is now the recall petition mechanism,sadly in the case of these hypocrites it would be unlikely to succeed.

BTW before Turtle et al claim this is about brexit,they could still have fought for a 2nd referendum under their original party labels.

Also if any of the ERG group were to defect to the BP for instance,the same rules should apply,the electorate should have a say.

If i was advising the Lib Dems i'd say be careful about allowing any of these loose cannons to join,their ego trip knows no bounds.

Trying to launch a new centre ground party was crazy anyway anyone inclined towards the centre has the Lib Dems as a natural bedfellow for their views.

[Lancasterclaret]

You are well informed, as usual.

I’ve given some advice on modelling 5 year forecasts for health bodies recently, and what you suggest is one of the variables in the drug expenditure section. Some assumptions would make expenditure go down, and others would make it go up. I would personally apply in a stronger way the “crown use license” but I accept this is often politically unpalatable (and a national issue not a local one). I think competition is a good thing, as I said above, but we do have to be firm.

Ultimately this comes down to trade offs, it is likely that the Americans will indeed lobby for patent protection, we have counter arguments but the entire package is key - protection of U.K. jobs, increased tax revenue, etc. If the NHS does face more costs because we use it as a bargaining chip, I would expect government to increase health funding to compensate NHS trusts. The trouble is, they rarely do. This Chancellor certainly doesn’t.

Think you've hit the nail on the head with the problem that most have with this.

NHS funding needs to go up anyway, and its not going to, even after Brexit and that is when the **** will really hit the fan.

QUICK EDIT - spare me the spin Conservative voters about its going up year on year alright?

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

Think you've hit the nail on the head with the problem that most have with this.

NHS funding needs to go up anyway, and its not going to, even after Brexit and that is when the **** will really hit the fan.

QUICK EDIT - spare me the spin Conservative voters about its going up year on year alright?

The NHS?

The NHS is on the table along with everything else in a US/UK Trade Agreement after Brexit according to Trump.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

And that, finally, is the naked truth about Brexit that this thread was started about.

From spending 350 million a week on the NHS to selling it off to Trump, that's where we are.

If you, the people of Burnley, still believe you'll be better off out of the EU, you need your heads examining.

You'll be eating chlorinated chicken, working gig economy jobs and having to buy American style health insurance packages to pay for a health service which is currently free.

"Look, I think everything with a trade deal is on the table. When you’re dealing with trade, everything’s on the table. So, NHS or anything else. Or a lot more than that. But everything will be on the table. Absolutely."

[Imploding Turtle]

Uh oh. A Tommy Robinson supporter popped the Baby Trump blimp.

I look forward to all those who were outraged about Milkshaking to be equally outraged at the destruction of property

[Imploding Turtle]

I guess the only reasonable recourse will be to have the blimp repaired, and pair it with a Baby Tommy blimp.

[Caballo]

And that, finally, is the naked truth about Brexit that this thread was started about.

From spending 350 million a week on the NHS to selling it off to Trump, that's where we are.

If you, the people of Burnley, still believe you'll be better off out of the EU, you need your heads examining.

You'll be eating chlorinated chicken, working gig economy jobs and having to buy American style health insurance packages to pay for a health service which is currently free.

"Look, I think everything with a trade deal is on the table. When you’re dealing with trade, everything’s on the table. So, NHS or anything else. Or a lot more than that. But everything will be on the table. Absolutely."

Make your mind up, up until this statement nobody was to believe a word trump said, now it's gospel. The NHS is the sacred cow, it's going nowhere.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Uh oh. A Tommy Robinson supporter popped the Baby Trump blimp.

I look forward to all those who were outraged about Milkshaking to be equally outraged at the destruction of property

The oddball who did that is banned from going near the sea.
Seriously.

[Imploding Turtle]

Make your mind up, up until this statement nobody was to believe a word trump said, now it's gospel. The NHS is the sacred cow, it's going nowhere.

Trump wasn't the first to say it. The US ambassador said it first. It's clearly something that his administration believes will be the case, otherwise it wouldn't have been a coordinated release of expectations. It'd have just been Trump spouting off again as he often does.

[AndyClaret]

It turns out the fat freak screaming fascist **** in the Trump supporters face works for the NHS, not for much longer I hope, how very caring.

[Devils_Advocate]

The oddball who did that is banned from going near the sea.
Seriously.

Guess that rules out claretonthecoast1882 then

[Imploding Turtle]

The oddball who did that is banned from going near the sea.
Seriously.

Dumb **** cut herself.

Interesting though, isn't it? A knife-wielding Trump supporter will get less condemnation that a milkshake-wielding lefty from some people

I wonder how big a knife it was. I believe the punishment for possession of a blade in of a certain size in public can be quite severe.

[Imploding Turtle]

It turns out the fat freak screaming fascist **** in the Trump supporters face works for the NHS, not for much longer I hope, how very caring.

Huh. Interesting. This will be worth remembering the next time a racist loses his job.

[Bordeauxclaret]

To be fair it could have been scissors or something similar but she’s certainly a worrying individual.

[Imploding Turtle]

To be fair it could have been scissors or something similar but she’s certainly a worrying individual.

Carrying any kind of weapon, or anything intended to be used as a weapon, is an offence so she's going to be facing a few charges. She's obviously a nut case so hopefully she gets the help she needs.

How do you get banned from the sea?

[tiger76]

Dumb **** cut herself.

Interesting though, isn't it? A knife-wielding Trump supporter will get less condemnation that a milkshake-wielding lefty from some people

I wonder how big a knife it was. I believe the punishment for possession of a blade in of a certain size in public can be quite severe.

IDK the details just what's been posted on this site,but if she was wielding an offensive weapon in public she should feel the full force of the law,idiotic behaviour whatever her motivation.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Carrying any kind of weapon, or anything intended to be used as a weapon, is an offence so she's going to be facing a few charges. She's obviously a nut case so hopefully she gets the help she needs.

How do you get banned from the sea?

She’s on an asbo for faking suicide attempts apparently.

Or was anyway.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6962633.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

Make your mind up, up until this statement nobody was to believe a word trump said, now it's gospel. The NHS is the sacred cow, it's going nowhere.

Wow, straight from the horse's mouth and you still won't believe it.

[Imploding Turtle]

IDK the details just what's been posted on this site,but if she was wielding an offensive weapon in public she should feel the full force of the law,idiotic behaviour whatever her motivation.

Yeah, but come on. It's not like she used a milkshake though.

[Burnley Ace]

You'll be eating chlorinated chicken, working gig economy jobs and having to buy American style health insurance packages to pay for a health service which is currently free."

The NHS isn’t free, it costs £125+ billion, about 19% of government spending and they want more. Having health insurance means that it’s free at the point of delivery as well. Other countries seem to manage to combine free and insurance top ups, why can’t we?

[elwaclaret]

Wow, straight from the horse's mouth and you still won't believe it.

Have to say there is a big difference in the US supplying products than a takeover of the NHS I would of thought. I’d consider the prospect of American medical supplies added to the NHS quite appealing tif.

[Imploding Turtle]

She’s on an asbo for faking suicide attempts apparently.

Or was anyway.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6962633.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Clearly a mental case. Thankfully we have a healthcare system that can help her without bankrupting her or demanding payment.