Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:21 am

Spijed wrote:Ringo, in your opinion, would private healthcare be a price worth paying for leaving the EU?

I don't think the EU has an opinion on how the NHS is funded - while we're in the EU, we can have an NHS fully paid for by the state, or we can have full private medical with no funding by the state and compulsory health insurance, or a mixture. The EU can interfere with how the funds are spent, re. allowing private enterprises from across the EU to tender for services, but are they bothered how it's funded?

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:27 am

If it be your will wrote:If he had any sense he would say the two are completely unrelated, and that you might as well ask Would nuclear armageddon be a price worth paying to remain in the EU?

Thats actually not as far fetched and unrelated as somebody claimed prior to the referendum-

https://youtu.be/TjOBcAelzJQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

David Cameron: Brexit could lead to Europe descending into war

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/0 ... -into-war/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

EU referendum: Cameron says UK exit could put peace at risk

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics- ... m-36243296" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

More "evidence" prior. That turned into that's now glibly passed off as "just predictions/forecasts/presumptions" when later proved to have been pure conjecture.

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:28 am

Spijed wrote:You do realise that Trump has openly made fun of people with disabilities and that they are sub human in his opinion.

So it is offensive to you when Trump does it but not when turtle does it ?

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:30 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Christ, nuclear armageddon is a step beyond the Hitler comparisons!

See below for prime minister Camerons pre referendum conjecture that you conveniently forgot about....

https://youtu.be/TjOBcAelzJQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/0 ... -into-war/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics- ... m-36243296" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

David Cameron: Brexit could lead to Europe descending into war

EU referendum: Cameron says UK exit could put peace at risk

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:34 am

Spijed wrote:Ringo, in your opinion, would private healthcare be a price worth paying for leaving the EU?

Strange question as it's one that's not being asked by anyone else as it's not an option that has been asked of the British people in the form of a referendum.

Leave the EU or remain on the EU has.

The majority voted Leave the EU.

It's yet to implemented.

Do you believe the results of democratic referenda and general elections should actually be implemented?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:43 am

Pretty sure Cameron said "could"

You've even put that in your replies.

While Ringo romps home by sheer volume of posts on here the actual reality of the situation continues to cause real problems in the real world.

Whats your reading of the latest Brexiteer piece on solving the crisis Ringo? Especially interested in what they have put in about Mode 4 from your point of view?

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:02 am

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:03 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:
While Ringo romps home by sheer volume of posts on here

Physician heal thyself. That's if you can prise yourself from what is a 24 hour obsession!

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:07 am

Cheers mate, but I did ask you a question about the new Brexit plans, specifically about what they have put in about the Mode 4?

LeuvenClaret · Post by **LeuvenClaret** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:16 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Do you believe the results of democratic referenda and general elections should actually be implemented?

As you well know there is only a mandate for the general elections.

If a result of a referendum was to damage the country the government is perfectly entitled to ignore the result and that is why we are where we are.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:18 am

If it be your will wrote:Here's a good one for all those voting Lib Dems hoping to save the NHS from privatisation. TTIP is the real threat to the NHS as we know it, and Vince is all in:

https://www.libdemvoice.org/liblink-vin ... 50160.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This comment about the threat to the NHS from the TTIP will be completely ignored by remainers unfortunately.
I posted something similar last night, but the NHS isn't really the issue to most of them

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:26 am

LeuvenClaret wrote:As you well know there is only a mandate for the general elections.

If a result of a referendum was to damage the country the government is perfectly entitled to ignore the result and that is why we are where we are.

Many many millions of people are of the opinion that remaining in the EU would damage the country.

Many many millions of people are of the opinion that a new labour government would "damage the country"

Many many millions of people were of the opinion that the tories austerity would "would damage the country"

1 Are you suggesting that, because some people believe a result of a referendum or general election would "damage the country " you should ignore the democratically expressed wishes of the voice of the British People?

Yes Or No?

2. Throughout hundreds and hundreds of years of British democracy. When has the result of a UK wide referendum or general election not been implemented?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:26 am

I think its fair to say that the worries about this are more to do with the US healthcare system becoming some sort of template for the UK one.

The Conservatives probably won't go that far (but who knows?) but the Brexit Party under its unelected leader certainly thinks that way (well, Farage does, and he's the only one who has a say)

And there are a lot of people (inc me) who have serious doubts that any "for profit" company can be trusted with healthcare.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:30 am

Yes. Paying 9 cents for a packet of paracetamol from the US as opposed to 10 euros per tablet from Germany
goes against everything the NHS stands for.
We literally fought wars to stop fascists like the USA from making us buy their cheap goods

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:31 am

Damo wrote:Yes. Paying 9 cents for a packet of paracetamol from the US as opposed to 10 euros per tablet from Germany
goes against everything the NHS stands for.
We literally fought wars to stop fascists like the USA from making us buy their cheap goods

Don't have any problem with that, and no one would.

But i doubt its as simple as that (as you and I both know!)

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:35 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Cheers mate, but I did ask you a question about the new Brexit plans, specifically about what they have put in about the Mode 4?

No idea. I'm sure in amongst the infinite number of posts you're about to unleash, you can find a day or two spare to enlighten the mere mortals, that you're obliged to tolerate, on here.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:45 am

Damo wrote:Yes. Paying 9 cents for a packet of paracetamol from the US as opposed to 10 euros per tablet from Germany
goes against everything the NHS stands for.
We literally fought wars to stop fascists like the USA from making us buy their cheap goods

Trump said yesterday that American drug companies are NOT charging enough!

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:51 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:No idea. I'm sure in amongst the infinite number of posts you're about to unleash, you can find a day or two spare to enlighten the mere mortals, that you're obliged to tolerate, on here.

I'm asking you specifically because its quite an interesting turn around from what is normally considered a red line.

Pretty sure this is where your red lines begin and end so interested in your take on it.

Thats all

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:55 am

LeuvenClaret wrote:As you well know there is only a mandate for the general elections.

If a result of a referendum was to damage the country the government is perfectly entitled to ignore the result and that is why we are where we are.

So if the government in 2015 was elected on a mandate to hold a referendum, and the referendum in 2016 voted Leave, and the government in 2017 was elected on a mandate to Leave the EU, you still say there is no mandate to Leave and the government is entitled to ignore the votes?

Whatever the legalities, there is a big democratic deficit to the government ordering a referendum and telling the public "This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide." and then to say that the vote went the wrong way and will be ignored.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:58 am

Spijed wrote:Trump said yesterday that American drug companies are NOT charging enough!

Do you think trump plans to put up the price of paracetamol by 12000%?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:05 pm

Damo wrote:Do you think trump plans to put up the price of paracetamol by 12000%?

Nah. Paracetamol can't really be patented.

What America wants is to allow its companies to charge $1780 for a drug, which is protected by a patent in America, while it's $8 where it isn't protected by a patent.

The ability to do that in this country would be beneficial to the companies that fund the Republican party, and whatever is to the benefit of the Republican party's donors will be a Republican president's policy.

LeuvenClaret · Post by **LeuvenClaret** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:10 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Many many millions of people are of the opinion that remaining in the EU would damage the country.

Many many millions of people are of the opinion that a new labour government would "damage the country"

Many many millions of people were of the opinion that the tories austerity would "would damage the country"

1 Are you suggesting that, because some people believe a result of a referendum or general election would "damage the country " you should ignore the democratically expressed wishes of the voice of the British People?

Yes Or No?

2. Throughout hundreds and hundreds of years of British democracy. When has the result of a UK wide referendum or general election not been implemented?

I believe a government is there to govern not just do what people want. Let’s have a referendum on zero tax and see where that gets us.

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:10 pm

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:11 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I'm asking you specifically because its quite an interesting turn around from what is normally considered a red line.

Pretty sure this is where your red lines begin and end so interested in your take on it.

Thats all

Again,

I've no idea. I'm sure in amongst the infinite number of posts you're about to unleash, you can find a day or two spare to enlighten the mere mortals, that you're obliged to tolerate, on here.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:13 pm

LeuvenClaret wrote:I believe a government is there to govern not just do what people want. Let’s have a referendum on zero tax and see where that gets us.

I'll try again.

1 Are you suggesting that, because some people believe a result of a referendum or general election would "damage the country " you should ignore the democratically expressed wishes of the voice of the British People?

Yes Or No?

2. Throughout hundreds and hundreds of years of British democracy. When has the result of a UK wide referendum or general election not been implemented?

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:22 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Don't have any problem with that, and no one would.

But i doubt its as simple as that (as you and I both know!)

It is as simple as that as far as the NHS argument is concerned.
Being in the EU wont save the NHS. In fact, it's one size fits all rules are absolutely choking it to death

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:30 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Nah. Paracetamol can't really be patented.

So why do we need to buy it for 10€ per tablet from a German company?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:36 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Again,

I've no idea. I'm sure in amongst the infinite number of posts you're about to unleash, you can find a day or two spare to enlighten the mere mortals, that you're obliged to tolerate, on here.

You are being impolite for absolutely no reason

1) its only been released since yesterday, so the "infinite number of posts" is just you being silly

2) I have no problem with everyone on here. You only got blocked because you became even more personal than you normally are

3) If you don't know what it involves, just say so. Its what normal people do!

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:45 pm

So what is the breaking news on Mode 4 ? We had international agreements before Europe for work residencies so what has changed? Genuinely haven’t seen any news

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:51 pm

Damo wrote:So why do we need to buy it for 10€ per tablet from a German company?

You don't.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:52 pm

Damo wrote:So why do we need to buy it for 10€ per tablet from a German company?

Good question. Do you have a source for this? A quick google gave nothing.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:55 pm

aggi wrote:Good question. Do you have a source for this? A quick google gave nothing.

Don't hold your breath.

Claret-On-A-T-Rex · Post by **Claret-On-A-T-Rex** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:10 pm

We spend 10 Euros per Paracetamol tablet from a German Company.

Let's spend that money on the NHS instead.

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:15 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Sorry I genuinely don't understand either of those claims.

Only half of the tigers have left, and haven't 2 lib Dems resigned the whip because of their anti brexit stance ?

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:20 pm

Here's your daily reremainder that the tories have been in charge of the NHS for majority of the last 70 years, no sign of privitising it yet....

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:34 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:You are being impolite for absolutely no reason

1) its only been released since yesterday, so the "infinite number of posts" is just you being silly

2) I have no problem with everyone on here. You only got blocked because you became even more personal than you normally are

3) If you don't know what it involves, just say so. Its what normal people do!

What part of " I've no idea " don't you understand I've said it twice. And my reference to the "infinite number of posts" is clearly a quip about the inevitable forthcoming posts you're about to treat we plebs, given your track record. And you knew that.

Let's be honest , you only blocked me because I'd proved you wrong on EU funding coming back in the form of regional funding, being our tax payers money, given we're net contributors to the EU budget. I used H.M Treasury figures and Full Fact quotes and you just couldn't bring yourself round to admitting it.

Just as your claim I was "making things up " re the EU allowing the banks to be bailed out, and blocking the UK government from bailing out British Steel. Again I used quotes from highly qualified specialists , the minister responsible and the government's own legal advisors quotes. To prove your claim wrong.

What you'll no doubt do now. Is what you've done time and time again. Claim you've already admitted it and go to ground. If thats the case. Then you won't have any problem about admitting again will you.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:43 pm

AndyClaret wrote:Here's your daily reremainder that the tories have been in charge of the NHS for majority of the last 70 years, no sign of privitising it yet....

I wonder if all the hystericals would want to make sure that if we were doing a trade deal with the USA, that we'd have to be prepared to keep a no deal option on the table and that no deal would be better than a bad deal?

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:54 pm

Personally I can see remaining in Europe is the surest way of making sure the NHS is dismantled. Like many of our institutions it does not fit the EU model.

While I have no idea of how much the NHS is charged for drugs I do know that at least two doctors have asked me to buy Paracetamol from the supermarket for the kids prescription as the price is only a fraction of what the NHS has to pay.

Have to say I think using the NHS to justify a remain policy seems somewhat strange, as I say, it is one of the institutions most at risk from EU long term policy.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:02 pm

elwaclaret wrote:Personally I can see remaining in Europe is the surest way of making sure the NHS is dismantled. Like many of our institutions it does not fit the EU model.

While I have no idea of how much the NHS is charged for drugs I do know that at least two doctors have asked me to buy Paracetamol from the supermarket for the kids prescription as the price is only a fraction of what the NHS has to pay.

Have to say I think using the NHS to justify a remain policy seems somewhat strange, as I say, it is one of the institutions most at risk from EU long term policy.

That isn't the base cost of the drug though (which Damo is going to give us the details on), it's all the additional costs of it going through the prescription system, pharmacists, etc

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:10 pm

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:16 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:What part of " I've no idea " don't you understand I've said it twice. And my reference to the "infinite number of posts" is clearly a quip about the inevitable forthcoming posts you're about to treat we plebs, given your track record. And you knew that.

Let's be honest , you only blocked me because I'd proved you wrong on EU funding coming back in the form of regional funding, being our tax payers money, given we're net contributors to the EU budget. I used H.M Treasury figures and Full Fact quotes and you just couldn't bring yourself round to admitting it.

Just as your claim I was "making things up " re the EU allowing the banks to be bailed out, and blocking the UK government from bailing out British Steel. Again I used quotes from highly qualified specialists , the minister responsible and the government's own legal advisors quotes. To prove your claim wrong.

What you'll no doubt do now. Is what you've done time and time again. Claim you've already admitted it and go to ground. If thats the case. Then you won't have any problem about admitting again will you.

Why would I go to ground? Its an internet message board and is an interesting diversion from the real world. Do you think its more than that?

Crikey!

I'm just interested in your opinion on a bit of actual Brexit plans for the future, as its your thing.

Mode 4 refers to freedom of movement, and it appears to be okay in the latest Brexit plans from the Brexiteers. Thats all.

Thought you might have an opinion in it as its something you are not very keen on.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:18 pm

elwaclaret wrote:Personally I can see remaining in Europe is the surest way of making sure the NHS is dismantled. Like many of our institutions it does not fit the EU model.

While I have no idea of how much the NHS is charged for drugs I do know that at least two doctors have asked me to buy Paracetamol from the supermarket for the kids prescription as the price is only a fraction of what the NHS has to pay.

Have to say I think using the NHS to justify a remain policy seems somewhat strange, as I say, it is one of the institutions most at risk from EU long term policy.

In what way?

Caballo · Post by **Caballo** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:20 pm

Is it still the case that Labour under Tony Blair, then subsequently Gordon Brown are responsible for more privatisation of the NHS then any Tory government before or after them?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:20 pm

If it be your will wrote:So you'd be in favour of repealing The Health and Social Care Act 2012, then, the one brought in by the Lib Dems? The act that compels NHS trusts to farm out services to the private sector, and be sued by Virgin if they don't? You must not be keen on the EU's Public Procurement Rules for health either, the ones that compel any health contract valued over E750,000 to be put to competitive tender?

Depends on what you describe as a health contract to be honest ITBYW

Support roles (supply, haulage, distribution that kind of thing) - no problem with that being outsourced

Actual health roles (A & E, hospitals etc) - not a fan

Actually this is the bit I'm not sure on, why can't US health companies compete for UK health contracts now?

LeuvenClaret · Post by **LeuvenClaret** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:44 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:I'll try again.

1 Are you suggesting that, because some people believe a result of a referendum or general election would "damage the country " you should ignore the democratically expressed wishes of the voice of the British People?

Yes Or No?

2. Throughout hundreds and hundreds of years of British democracy. When has the result of a UK wide referendum or general election not been implemented?

1. The government should govern in the best interests of its people. Even if this goes against public opinion. Examples raising taxes or going to war.

2.there was never a mandate to enact this referendum and that’s the problem. There is a mandate for a general election. You clearly feel there was a mandate for this referendum which is incorrect.

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:45 pm

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:46 pm

If it be your will wrote:Do you know, I've wondered that myself, and I honestly don't know the answer, and I can't find an answer.

I think you can just give a straight 'no' to US-based companies, without even giving a reason, or refuse to allow them into the tendering process at all. Whereas you cannot do this for companies based in EU member states. But what is to stop a US company just registering in the EU? All in all, my answer is 'I don't know'.

Intriguing, going to have a look at that one.

Could it be EU procurement rules?

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:51 pm

LeuvenClaret wrote:1. The government should govern in the best interests of its people. Even if this goes against public opinion. Examples raising taxes or going to war.

2.there was never a mandate to enact this referendum and that’s the problem. There is a mandate for a general election. You clearly feel there was a mandate for this referendum which is incorrect.

A mandate, as I understand it, is the authority given by the people to the government. Are you using a different definition? Because the referendum clearly gave the government the mandate to leave the EU; a mandate backed up when both Conservative and Labour parties stood on the platform of leaving the EU at the subsequent referendum.

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:52 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:54 pm

Caballo wrote:Is it still the case that Labour under Tony Blair, then subsequently Gordon Brown are responsible for more privatisation of the NHS then any Tory government before or after them?

According to UTC regulations you're not allowed to mention what Labour and Blair did to the NHS as it goes against people's Tory bashing agendas and it's classed as whataboutary.

Yeah though, they gave a real kick start to a lot of the privatisation and I don't think the Tories are quite there just yet, but give them time.

Labour were also against PFI when they were the opposition party but went all out for it when they got into power, something that the country will be paying for, for a good number of years yet.