Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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elwaclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by elwaclaret » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:14 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:In what way?
How would the NHS fit into a Europe where health insurance is largely mandatory?
How do we maintain a free NHS when all Europe can legally take advantage of it?

Are two that spring to mind without looking into it...

But I certainly remember the future of the NHS was being targeted pre- referendum, as something that would have to be changed dramatically.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by LeuvenClaret » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:25 pm

dsr wrote:A mandate, as I understand it, is the authority given by the people to the government. Are you using a different definition? Because the referendum clearly gave the government the mandate to leave the EU; a mandate backed up when both Conservative and Labour parties stood on the platform of leaving the EU at the subsequent referendum.
The referendum was not mandatory to enact. They are not constitutionally binding. They can be, but this wasn’t.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:28 pm

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Last edited by If it be your will on Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Burnley Ace » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:30 pm

LeuvenClaret wrote:
2.there was never a mandate to enact this referendum and that’s the problem. There is a mandate for a general election. You clearly feel there was a mandate for this referendum which is incorrect.
Let’s not open this can of worms. I’m sure Ringo will tell you that it was on a leaflet and a leaflet beats an Act of Parliament and hundreds of years of precedent.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:31 pm

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:35 pm

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:40 pm

If it be your will wrote:I should be honest here, and help the remainers out.

There does appear, at least for now, a legal loophole in the EU Public Procurement Rules for health. It's tentative, totally untested and sounds a bit far out, but apparently might have a chance. It goes like this:

Every contract with assumed value of E750,000 must be put to competitive tender. But let's imagine there was no internal market or accounting in the NHS. You could then make the boundaries between services so grey and vague, a proper price couldn't be put on them. In that case, the only concrete 'tenderable service' would be the NHS in its entirety. Then, of course, you would have to put the 'Entire NHS' to competitive tender. Having done that, the British state puts in its bid of 800 billion for the 5-year contract. And it obviously wins, because there isn't a private entity anywhere on earth with access to that sort of cash.

This would involve undoing all the marketisation of the NHS, going right back to Major and Blair, returning the NHS structure to something resembling the mid-90s. Lots and lots of managers and accountants would be left twiddling their thumbs. I can't see this loophole lasting, but for now, at least, this approach has a chance. Failing that, a fully state-owned NHS as an EU member state is, as remainers say, pure unicornism.
There is always a way.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:44 pm

elwaclaret wrote:How would the NHS fit into a Europe where health insurance is largely mandatory?
How do we maintain a free NHS when all Europe can legally take advantage of it?

Are two that spring to mind without looking into it...

But I certainly remember the future of the NHS was being targeted pre- referendum, as something that would have to be changed dramatically.
In order for an EU citizen to move from one EU to another EU country, they have to have five years of comprehensive health insurance.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:52 pm

Posting under wrong thread!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by elwaclaret » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:56 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Oh, are we allowing pre-referendum stuff into the debate now? Suits remain that!

Right, so you are claiming that because health insurance in Europe is "largely mandatory" (need some facts and figures for that one) that means the NHS won't be allowed to exist?

And the 2nd one is not true either

But yeah, its doomed under the EU

Ok take the arsy road.... well thought out and reasoned response. What is the matter do those questions not fit your utopian EU?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:02 pm

elwaclaret wrote:How would the NHS fit into a Europe where health insurance is largely mandatory?
How do we maintain a free NHS when all Europe can legally take advantage of it?

Are two that spring to mind without looking into it...

But I certainly remember the future of the NHS was being targeted pre- referendum, as something that would have to be changed dramatically.
We can opt to recover the majority of costs from the EEA for treatment of EEA citizens.

It seems we generally don't do this but that's a UK choice and in part due to the quality of our patient recording.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:05 pm

Caballo wrote:Is it still the case that Labour under Tony Blair, then subsequently Gordon Brown are responsible for more privatisation of the NHS then any Tory government before or after them?
Probably not given the implications of the 2012 Health and Social Care Act.

Also, you do realise that you're stealing Sidney's thunder here? He loves a whatabout in politics discussions. (EDIT: I should have read on, he was there.)
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by elwaclaret » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:14 pm

aggi wrote:We can opt to recover the majority of costs from the EEA for treatment of EEA citizens.

It seems we generally don't do this but that's a UK choice and in part due to the quality of our patient recording.

Thanks again Aggi, I remember the NHS situation was one of the fundamental questions that led to the sudden rise in Brexit feeling; Regarding our continuation in Europe as the threat was looming very large and real.

Still think the NHS is one area the Remainers have largely steered clear of in the media as we just don’t fit the “future” European model that the move to a more federal system. As I have said on many occasions it is where Europe intends to go next that worries me most. It may settle down now the ivory towers of the EU have mainland nationalists knocking at their doors.
Last edited by elwaclaret on Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:14 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:Let’s not open this can of worms. I’m sure Ringo will tell you that it was on a leaflet and a leaflet beats an Act of Parliament and hundreds of years of precedent.
There aren't hundreds of years of precedent for the government promising to enact the result of a referendum and then changing their mind when they didn't like the result.

Obviously no government can bind a future government, and therefore there was obviously no possible way to make the referendum legally binding. But government of the people by parliament has to be based on the government being honest. Making promises and then breaking them because they had their fingers crossed, is not the way to encourage the people to trust the government.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:15 pm

elwaclaret wrote:Ok take the arsy road.... well thought out and reasoned response. What is the matter do those questions not fit your utopian EU?
Whose talking about an utopian EU?

Not me, its just better from a trade and economic situation for the UK.

I've been consistent on that from the beginning.

Its just that your post suggests that the EU would kill the NHS. Which is crap.

Both statements you made were untrue (to a greater or lesser extent) , which is depressingly standard from those who support Brexit.

Which is why so many of us don't trust Brexit.

Whats never got through to any of the Brexiteers from Day 1 is that if they are honest about the problems, then we can deal with them. Pretending they are not problems and trying to wing it just stores up the problems for another day.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by elwaclaret » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:19 pm

Untrue? I would like to know on what you base your reasoning?

As EU noises over the NHS and other integration is what galvanised Brexit support in the first place.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:20 pm

Anyway, heres the stuff I was on about earlier (the full report on the "Brexit Plan V.9.4 (or whereever we are at the moment))

Forgot the link!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... al-Brexit/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by Lancasterclaret on Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:22 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Anyway, heres the stuff I was on about earlier (the full report on the "Brexit Plan V.9.4 (or whereever we are at the moment))

Now that's what I call brexit volume 203 (now that's what I call music has a real challenger)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:22 pm

elwaclaret wrote:Untrue? I would like to know on what you base your reasoning?

As EU noises over the NHS and other integration is what galvanised Brexit support in the first place.
No it isn't.

You are confusing that with a bus with £350 million on the side of it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Rick_Muller » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:24 pm

this thread is just like Eastenders or Corrie... I've been away from it for what seems like years and then dropped in again and its still the same sh!t as it always is...
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:27 pm

Rick_Muller wrote:this thread is just like Eastenders or Corrie... I've been away from it for what seems like years and then dropped in again and its still the same sh!t as it always is...

Same characters too
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:29 pm

No ones killed me off yet!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by elwaclaret » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:29 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:No it isn't.

You are confusing that with a bus with £350 million on the side of it.
Hahaha. We going pantomime answers now?

Oh no it wasn’t. It was why that bloody stupid stunt was thought up.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:30 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:No ones killed me off yet!

Aye but ringos killed ya bunny
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:35 pm

elwaclaret wrote:Hahaha. We going pantomime answers now?

Oh no it wasn’t. It was why that bloody stupid stunt was thought up.
Right, so there will be loads of evidence that the EU was pushing for the end of the NHS in your next post then?

Now pressure on public services because of increased immigration is another thing entirely, but that is countered by the decision to embrace austerity (a UK Government decision, not an EU one).

Now that has been done a lot on here, and those who want to argue that its the EU that closed the hospitals and the doctors surgeries struggle to back that up.

But I agree that the misinformation about it is a problem.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by elwaclaret » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:47 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Right, so there will be loads of evidence that the EU was pushing for the end of the NHS in your next post then?

Now pressure on public services because of increased immigration is another thing entirely, but that is countered by the decision to embrace austerity (a UK Government decision, not an EU one).

Now that has been done a lot on here, and those who want to argue that its the EU that closed the hospitals and the doctors surgeries struggle to back that up.

But I agree that the misinformation about it is a problem.
I agree the EU had nothing to do with closers. As I have repeated ad infinitum it is where the EU is planning to go that makes me want a relationship where our nation chooses our path, at times it would be with the EU but equally to say no.... without having to beg for opt outs. As I’ve also said if we adopt EU policy in total as it currently stands and adopt a “from this point forward” stance on new legislation, I personally would settle for it.... as I expected as much from the vote.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:12 pm

elwaclaret wrote:I agree the EU had nothing to do with closers. As I have repeated ad infinitum it is where the EU is planning to go that makes me want a relationship where our nation chooses our path, at times it would be with the EU but equally to say no.... without having to beg for opt outs. As I’ve also said if we adopt EU policy in total as it currently stands and adopt a “from this point forward” stance on new legislation, I personally would settle for it.... as I expected as much from the vote.
No probs, that is a realistic position to adapt (though we disagree on the direction of the EU going forward)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Burnley Ace » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:00 pm

dsr wrote:There aren't hundreds of years of precedent for the government promising to enact the result of a referendum and then changing their mind when they didn't like the result.

Obviously no government can bind a future government, and therefore there was obviously no possible way to make the referendum legally binding. But government of the people by parliament has to be based on the government being honest. Making promises and then breaking them because they had their fingers crossed, is not the way to encourage the people to trust the government.
You are wrong (or at best favouring the"leaflet" approach) Since 1973 there have been 11 referendums in the UK of which only 3 have been UK wide. The result of a referendum is legally binding if it is written into the Act - section 8 Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011 states that "The Minister must make an order bringing into force... If more votes are cast in the referendum in favour of the answer "yes" than in favour of the answer "no". A future government would have to repeal that Act

There was no such section relating to the EU referendum as it was advisory, we have a Representative Parliament, MPs are sent to exercise their best judgment not to just pander to those that shout the loudest or claim to have the will of the people behind them, otherwise we would still, for example, have the death penalty.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:30 pm

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Last edited by If it be your will on Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:30 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:You are wrong (or at best favouring the"leaflet" approach) Since 1973 there have been 11 referendums in the UK of which only 3 have been UK wide. The result of a referendum is legally binding if it is written into the Act - section 8 Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011 states that "The Minister must make an order bringing into force... If more votes are cast in the referendum in favour of the answer "yes" than in favour of the answer "no". A future government would have to repeal that Act

There was no such section relating to the EU referendum as it was advisory, we have a Representative Parliament, MPs are sent to exercise their best judgment not to just pander to those that shout the loudest or claim to have the will of the people behind them, otherwise we would still, for example, have the death penalty.
"The Referendum Act 1975, also known simply as the Referendum Act, was an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom, which made legal provision for the holding of a non-binding referendum on whether the United Kingdom should remain a member of the European Communities (EC)"

The 1975 referendum was not legally binding. The result was enacted.

The 2016 referendum was not legally binding. The result is yet to be enacted.



The booklet that cost £9000,000 and was sent to every household in the country. Stated "it's your decision, the government will enact that decision"

The wording was signed off by the Electoral Commission

If the booklet had said, "it's your decision, the government will look at the result, and, as it's only an advisory referendum, we may not take a blind bit of notice of it, if we don't agree with it". Do you think as many people would have actually bothered to vote?
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:35 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Why would I go to ground? Its an internet message board and is an interesting diversion from the real world. Do you think its more than that?

Crikey!

I'm just interested in your opinion on a bit of actual Brexit plans for the future, as its your thing.

Mode 4 refers to freedom of movement, and it appears to be okay in the latest Brexit plans from the Brexiteers. Thats all.

Thought you might have an opinion in it as its something you are not very keen on.
I'll wait and find out more about Mode 4 as it perhaps comes to prominence. Plenty of time for that.

Any movement on accepting I was right on EU regional funding and the fact that the EU said it was fine to bail out the banks but not British Steel?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:38 pm

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:45 pm

LeuvenClaret wrote:1. The government should govern in the best interests of its people. Even if this goes against public opinion. Examples raising taxes or going to war.

2.there was never a mandate to enact this referendum and that’s the problem. There is a mandate for a general election. You clearly feel there was a mandate for this referendum which is incorrect.
You said previously

LeuvenClaret wrote:If a result of a referendum was to damage the country the government is perfectly entitled to ignore the result and that is why we are where we are.
I asked 2 , that's 2 questions. The first only requires a yes or no answer. The second either requires a date, dates or the word "never"

1 Are you suggesting that, because some people believe a result of a referendum or general election would "damage the country " you should ignore the democratically expressed wishes of the voice of the British People?

Yes Or No?

2. Throughout hundreds and hundreds of years of British democracy. When has the result of a UK wide referendum or general election not been implemented?


Let's try again

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:56 pm

LeuvenClaret wrote:The referendum was not mandatory to enact. They are not constitutionally binding. They can be, but this wasn’t.

"The Referendum Act 1975, also known simply as the Referendum Act, was an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom, which made legal provision for the holding of a non-binding referendum on whether the United Kingdom should remain a member of the European Communities (EC)"

The 1975 referendum was not legally binding. The result was enacted.

The 2016 referendum was not legally binding. The result is yet to be enacted.



The booklet that cost £9000,000 and was sent to every household in the country. Stated "it's your decision, the government will enact that decision"

The wording was signed off by the Electoral Commission

If the booklet had said, "it's your decision, the government will look at the result, and, as it's only an advisory referendum, we may not take a blind bit of notice of it, if we don't agree with it". Do you think as many people would have actually bothered to vote?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:03 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:2. Throughout hundreds and hundreds of years of British democracy. When has the result of a UK wide referendum or general election not been implemented?
I like this question. It's nicely phrased to give the appearance that throughout hundreds and hundreds of years of British democracy (admittedly there's a strong argument that we've only been a democracy for about 100 years but that's by the by) we've had loads of referendums that have been implemented rather than two.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:08 pm

In other news, Trump is helping out with the Irish border problem:

“I think it will all work out very well, and also for you with your wall, your border,”

I suspect he may not quite understand all of the issues.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:11 pm

elwaclaret wrote:I agree the EU had nothing to do with closers. As I have repeated ad infinitum it is where the EU is planning to go that makes me want a relationship where our nation chooses our path, at times it would be with the EU but equally to say no.... without having to beg for opt outs. As I’ve also said if we adopt EU policy in total as it currently stands and adopt a “from this point forward” stance on new legislation, I personally would settle for it.... as I expected as much from the vote.
I hate to resurrect the old bogeyman, but I think you're engaging in a bit of project fear (if only for yourself). The central premise of what you're saying is that the EU enacts regulations and laws that negatively affect member states and those member states just have to sit back and take it. That is not whatsoever true. If it were, you would be able to provide me with concrete examples of cases where this has happened. As a member of the EU, we have been instrumental in writing legislation the EU has passed. The UK government has supported over 98% of EU legislation that went on to be passed. This idea that the EU is going to somehow strip us of the NHS is crazy. What has the EU stripped us of before? How has the EU negatively impacted your life? How have your rights as a person been diminished by the EU? What example can you give of the EU stripping another country of its rights? What evidence do you have that the EU will somehow turn nasty? What's worse in my mind is that for every fear you have of the EU becoming overlord-ish in Europe, I have several more about the political situation in our country. The EU, as imperfect as it is, is still a collection of democracies. We are just one.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Burnley Ace » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:33 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:"The Referendum Act 1975, also known simply as the Referendum Act, was an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom, which made legal provision for the holding of a non-binding referendum on whether the United Kingdom should remain a member of the European Communities (EC)"

The 1975 referendum was not legally binding. The result was enacted.

The 2016 referendum was not legally binding. The result is yet to be enacted.



The booklet that cost £9000,000 and was sent to every household in the country. Stated "it's your decision, the government will enact that decision"

The wording was signed off by the Electoral Commission

If the booklet had said, "it's your decision, the government will look at the result, and, as it's only an advisory referendum, we may not take a blind bit of notice of it, if we don't agree with it". Do you think as many people would have actually bothered to vote?
Rings and his booklet!! https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... the-uk.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You often mention it and so I had a quick look. It’s interesting that you cling on to one sentence (on page 14) like it’s the holy gospel, yet everything else that’s in the booklet is project fear and lies.

The 1975 referendum was not legally binding but MPs agreed with the sentiment expressed by the result that it was in our best interests to join. They weren’t forced to do it against their better judgment, their judgment being the reason they are MP’s. the 2016 referendum was not legally binding and MPs disagreed with the sentiment expressed as they felt it wasn’t in our best interest. However the shrill shrieking of the minority of the population who wanted to leave, backed by the right wing media and foreign interests and their perversion of the phrase “will of the people” has led to a situation where our intellectually deficient and weak Parliament has kowtowed to their threats and bullying.

As for the Electoral Commission signing off the wording - have you got a link to that? It’s not mentioned in the booklet, google doesn’t have an answer and I can’t find it on their website. You wouldn’t have made it up would you!!

Bordeauxclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:33 pm

aggi wrote:In other news, Trump is helping out with the Irish border problem:

“I think it will all work out very well, and also for you with your wall, your border,”

I suspect he may not quite understand all of the issues.
That’s on top of him not knowing Ireland is not in the UK.
When he’s not reading from a script you really do get to see how dumb he really is.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:54 pm

AndrewJB wrote:I hate to resurrect the old bogeyman, but I think you're engaging in a bit of project fear (if only for yourself). The central premise of what you're saying is that the EU enacts regulations and laws that negatively affect member states and those member states just have to sit back and take it. That is not whatsoever true. If it were, you would be able to provide me with concrete examples of cases where this has happened. As a member of the EU, we have been instrumental in writing legislation the EU has passed. The UK government has supported over 98% of EU legislation that went on to be passed. This idea that the EU is going to somehow strip us of the NHS is crazy. What has the EU stripped us of before? How has the EU negatively impacted your life? How have your rights as a person been diminished by the EU? What example can you give of the EU stripping another country of its rights? What evidence do you have that the EU will somehow turn nasty? What's worse in my mind is that for every fear you have of the EU becoming overlord-ish in Europe, I have several more about the political situation in our country. The EU, as imperfect as it is, is still a collection of democracies. We are just one.
One that springs to mind. The UK really didn't want a statutory minimum number of holiday days and took the EU to court to try and prevent it.

Burnley Ace
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Burnley Ace » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:56 pm

If it be your will wrote:I can give an absolute cast iron guarantee that if the best argument to overturn the referendum result is "Yes, but it wasn't legally binding was it??" then the referendum result will not be overturned.
Of course it isn’t but that is more of a reflection on the people you are arguing with. The ones, like Ringo, who believe the Law of the Booklet should prevail.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by LeuvenClaret » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:25 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:"The Referendum Act 1975, also known simply as the Referendum Act, was an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom, which made legal provision for the holding of a non-binding referendum on whether the United Kingdom should remain a member of the European Communities (EC)"

The 1975 referendum was not legally binding. The result was enacted.

The 2016 referendum was not legally binding. The result is yet to be enacted.



The booklet that cost £9000,000 and was sent to every household in the country. Stated "it's your decision, the government will enact that decision"

The wording was signed off by the Electoral Commission

If the booklet had said, "it's your decision, the government will look at the result, and, as it's only an advisory referendum, we may not take a blind bit of notice of it, if we don't agree with it". Do you think as many people would have actually bothered to vote?
Missed your point if you are saying they are not legally binding then I agree. Your questions to me made it sound that they should have been law which is incorrect.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:37 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:I'll wait and find out more about Mode 4 as it perhaps comes to prominence. Plenty of time for that.

Any movement on accepting I was right on EU regional funding and the fact that the EU said it was fine to bail out the banks but not British Steel?
There was a 200 post thread in which you changed the question about six times.

That one?

You came out of that one with A1 stars mate!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:30 pm

.
Last edited by If it be your will on Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:33 pm

If it be your will wrote:Yet good old Blighty, all on it's own, without any help from the EU, using its own democracy, managed to get British workers 8 more days of holiday than the amount the EU eventually decided on. We got a minimum wage on our own, too - the EU had none of that. And massively more generous maternity rights than the EU's. All that gender equality, race equality, age equality, all without any help from the EU. We also got the right to union representation on our own. (We used to have the ultimate right to strike, too, but the Viking Line and Laval judgments put paid to that.)

Where would we be without the EU protecting workers' rights?

(I'm sure they gave us loads more that we didn't get for ourselves. What were they again?)
Can also be turned the other way that the EU never stopped us doing any of that as well.

Which I know the EUSSR crap is not something you believe in, but plenty on here do

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Caballo » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:50 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Can also be turned the other way that the EU never stopped us doing any of that as well.
How gracious of them, you've convinced me Lancs, I'm in!
This user liked this post: If it be your will

Paul Waine
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:57 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Trump says the NHS is on the table for UK-US trade talks.

So there you go

Brexit always was more about "selling it off to the US private healthcare firms" and less about "£350 million a week in our NHS"
Hi Lancs, you are a sensible fellow. I'm puzzled/confused by what everyone is getting so excited about the NHS and a FTA with the US. Can you explain - I'm happy that others contribute also - what is it that the US is planning to do? At present the UK tax payer funds the NHS. Do the US want to trade this for the US taxpayer funding the NHS? Or do the US want to buy the NHS from us - take the NHS to the US - and sell us their own insurance based "national health system?" (Of course, we know the US doesn't have a national health system - more just a system where the user pays, probably with a contribution from their health insurance).

(Not read all the other posts from where I've quoted Lancs. I'm also happy if someone can point me to the answer to my question in a subsequent post).

EDIT: I've now read thru all the other posts. I've got this feeling that there are very few, if any, on here that have an idea what they are posting about. We are all getting more and more like our politicians every day. :(
Last edited by Paul Waine on Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:34 pm

Spijed wrote:Ringo, in your opinion, would private healthcare be a price worth paying for leaving the EU?
Can I respond, Spijed? There are several EU countries that have insurance based national health systems. I've argued before that the UK should look seriously at how these systems operate, pick the best ideas and change the NHS by adopting the best from those models. I lived in Netherlands, several years back now, and the health system there is better than the NHS. I've heard the same said by UK expats in Spain. My Italian friends also speak well of the Italian system (which I think does have some form of taxpayer funded contribution).

You know, if we remained in the EU, maybe in time the EU would require the UK to have an insurance based health care system. How many of those that want to remain in the EU would think an insurance based health care system would be a fair trade to remain in the EU?

I'd take that, if it was on offer.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:42 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Nah. Paracetamol can't really be patented.

What America wants is to allow its companies to charge $1780 for a drug, which is protected by a patent in America, while it's $8 where it isn't protected by a patent.

The ability to do that in this country would be beneficial to the companies that fund the Republican party, and whatever is to the benefit of the Republican party's donors will be a Republican president's policy.
Hi IT,

I know the usual question is, have you got any facts to back up that post?

Do you know anything about international patent laws and protection of intellectual property?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:55 pm

aggi wrote:In other news, Trump is helping out with the Irish border problem:

“I think it will all work out very well, and also for you with your wall, your border,”

I suspect he may not quite understand all of the issues.
I interpreted it as Trump as good as having Leo up against a wall and telling him to get on and sort it. Leo’s face was a picture.

The Irish are far, far more subservient to the Americans than we are. They are only a tiny, tiny nation. The Americans want this trade deal and Trump thinks of money and little else. There’s no money in it for them if the Irish continue to hang tough. Trump has treated this trip as sweeping through Britain and Ireland giving everyone a “straightener”.

This border thing will only be months away from resolution, I suspect.

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