Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:57 am

In other news Watford didn’t lose the FA Cup because they weren’t holders. Bet they’re feeling better about it now.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:59 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:2 words

Article 50.

That’s one word and one number.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:01 am

Cryssys wrote:Given that Peterborough voted leave by 61 to 39 he should be worried. It's a poor result for them but a great result for an "unelectable" Labour party.

The beginning of the end for the Brexit Party? If they can't win in a strong leave constituency...

Wonder how Ringo and the rest of the leavers will spin this?

Too many brown people voting was the issue it seems.

Not a good result for the Brexit party but not unexpected. Although people may be willing to vote for a single issue vanity project with no policies in a European election they're clearly less keen when it's their parliamentary representative.

Peterborough was in the top third of the leave voting constituencies in terms of Leave votes, if the Brexit party can't win there it's going to struggle in a lot of places.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:09 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:It's totally relevant. If you honestly believe it's acceptable that expressions of democracy should be thwarted, simply because you don't like the result it produces. You have absolutely no right to call yourself a democrat. And you should , maybe , shuffle off to North Korea.

So you believe that MPs who -

A-, voted by a massive majority to let the people "have the final say on Europe " as Mr Hammond put it, by holding an EU referendum. Therefore , delegating the decision to British People.

B-, 84% of whom were elected on manifestos that pledged to respect and implement the referendum result

C-, voted, by a massive majority, to trigger Article 50. Which meant that we would leave the EU on the 29th of March 2019. With or without a withdrawal agreement.

Should now turn around and say "no"

Let me tell you something. They had their chance to say "no" on June 23rd 2016. When you and I and everybody else voted in the referendum. One person. One vote. To now turn round and usurp the clear instruction they have been given is an affront to democracy itself.

On referendum night before the results had come in, Paddy Ashdown made a solemn promise to the British public:

“I will forgive no one who does not respect the sovereign voice of the British people once it has spoken, whether it is a majority of one per cent or 20 per cent.

When the British people have spoken you do what they command.

Either you believe in democracy, or you don’t.”

And you, clearly, do not.

I guess I believe in Parliamentary sovereignity regardless of the result whereas you only believe in sovereignity if it agrees with what you want.

Personally I feel we should have left with May's deal or similar but unfortunately the "Brexit at all costs" (apart from this cost) MPs put the kibosh on that.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:13 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:Right ladies.

I'm done for the weekend.

You have yourself a great one. Toodle pip

Whats happened to Liz, have you retired that moniker?

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:34 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:Whats happened to Liz, have you retired that moniker?

She'll be here when he gets drunk enough to put the dress on.

: download.jpg (12.17 KiB) Viewed 1610 times

Claret-On-A-T-Rex · Post by **Claret-On-A-T-Rex** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:39 am

Oh god, has he gone yet?

I'm tempted to display his posts to see how he manages to spin the Brexit party LOSING the Peterborough Byelection.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:42 am

https://unherd.com/2019/06/the-town-tha ... liticians/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This just about sums Brexit up for me

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:44 am

Damo wrote:https://unherd.com/2019/06/the-town-tha ... liticians/

This just about sums Brexit up for me

Yup, seen that one before. The John Harris stuff on the guardian is good as well.

Long before this vote, one of the main reasons that people like me were so against this was because we doubted that a UK Govt would put the money that places like that desperately need.

And that hasn't change

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:02 pm

Damo wrote:https://unherd.com/2019/06/the-town-tha ... liticians/

This just about sums Brexit up for me

I think it illustrates why a lot of people voted for Brexit but whatever happens with it there are still going to be a lot of ****** off people. There needs to be real emphasis on improving the lives of a lot of people who are being left behind. The government needs to make real efforts to improve these places: better public transport, incentives to move jobs out there, affordable housing, etc

Sadly there is no real indication that anything is going to change soon. Brexit is being held up as a silver bullet and it really isn't going to be.

Burnley Ace · Post by **Burnley Ace** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:26 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:.

In the future when millions no longer vote , because " why bother they do what they want to do" it will only take a relatively small number of votes to elect dangerous extremists.

I don’t have a problem with that, in fact I would encourage it. I would rather a smaller electorate wha have some understanding of the issues than some of the fickle voters that have a vote now.

Claret-On-A-T-Rex · Post by **Claret-On-A-T-Rex** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:26 pm

Damo wrote:https://unherd.com/2019/06/the-town-tha ... liticians/

This just about sums Brexit up for me

Yep, a town blaming the EU for absolutely no reason.

Meanwhile...

"She is 63 and in receipt of Employment and Support Allowance, surviving on £70-a-week.
She says she is too ill to work and has been waiting for a home medical assessment for 14 months."

"I ask if they ever see police officers walking the beat.
Christine looks at me with an equal measure of bewilderment and derision."

Claret-On-A-T-Rex · Post by **Claret-On-A-T-Rex** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:28 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:I don’t have a problem with that, in fact I would encourage it. I would rather a smaller electorate wha have some understanding of the issues than some of the fickle voters that have a vote now.

Me too, I would have in place a qualifying minimum intellect for a start.

If the threshold for the 2016 referendum had been that you needed a minimum IQ of just 50 to vote then not one single person in the entire country would have voted to leave.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:32 pm

Damo wrote:https://unherd.com/2019/06/the-town-tha ... liticians/
This just about sums Brexit up for me

Fishing and tourism are never going to flood back to these towns. What do you do when the entire reason for a town being there is no longer relevant?

The EU isn't the cause, the invention of refrigeration, container ships and low cost air travel are.

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:40 pm

Labour win but the % change in the vote must shock both the Labour and Conservative parties.

Labour -17%
Brexit Party +29%
Conservative -25%
Lib Dems +9%

If Brexit isn't delivered by 31st Oct then Labour likely to win the next GE due to split in the centre right vote.

Burnley Ace · Post by **Burnley Ace** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:43 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:

And approving of democratic instruction of 17,400,000 People should be ignored, just because around 450 or MPs "feel It will be detrimental. Is no basis for destroying people's trust in the democratic process.

1975 referendum- non binding result was what the Establishment wanted - enacted.

2016 referendum- non binding result was not what the Establishment wanted - not enacted. Democracy thwarted.

It’s groundhog day but here we go again!!

Democracy (which you keep quoting but don’t really understand) is more than the winner takes all that you want it to be. MPs represent everyone, not just those that voted for them. They represent the 16,900,000 people that voted remain. They also represent those EU citizens that live in the U.K. (and pay tax in the U.K.) that weren’t allowed to vote.

MPs are elected to represent us all using their best judgment - that is the democratic society we live in.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:44 pm

CombatClaret wrote:Fishing and tourism are never going to flood back to these towns. What do you do when the entire reason for a town being there is no longer relevant?

The EU isn't the cause, the invention of refrigeration, container ships and low cost air travel are.

Aye, its taken Morecambe a long time (and a lot of cash) to regenerate and its only gone as far as the superb prom and front.

But they have done a cracking job with it, and its still got one of the best vistas in the country with one of the best sunsets.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:51 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:It’s groundhog day but here we go again!!

Democracy (which you keep quoting but don’t really understand) is more than the winner takes all that you want it to be. MPs represent everyone, not just those that voted for them. They represent the 16,900,000 people that voted remain. They also represent those EU citizens that live in the U.K. (and pay tax in the U.K.) that weren’t allowed to vote.

MPs are elected to represent us all using their best judgment - that is the democratic society we live in.

Ringo won't accept that in a million years. Even though its what our democracy is based on. Our entire democratic system is based on that premise, and Ringo won't accept it because its not what he wants to believe.

Thats where we are as a country sadly.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:24 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:It’s groundhog day but here we go again!!

Democracy (which you keep quoting but don’t really understand) is more than the winner takes all that you want it to be. MPs represent everyone, not just those that voted for them. They represent the 16,900,000 people that voted remain. They also represent those EU citizens that live in the U.K. (and pay tax in the U.K.) that weren’t allowed to vote.

MPs are elected to represent us all using their best judgment - that is the democratic society we live in.

I've posted similar before, but you'll never persuade some brexiteers that this is the Parliamentary Sovereignty that they supposedly voted for.
It's worth adding to your post that MPs are not delegates. They represent everyone in their constituency, from cradle to grave, not just those who voted for their party, and by the same argument remainers as well as leavers.
They have to represent all those who have not reached voting age equally with those who have voted for them all their lives, and non-UK citizens equally with British.
They might however choose to give more weight to one group of people or one specific cause over another.
e.g. They might prioritise workers and jobs by supporting a major local employer if they consider that the future prosperity of their constituency depends on it.

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:28 pm

Boris case quite rightly thrown out.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:32 pm

Yup, politicians lie. Nothing new there.

I wonder how long before Ringsting breaks his er, weekend-long silence.
Another couple of pints probably.

Cryssys · Post by **Cryssys** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:10 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:2 words

Article 50.

That's one word and a number.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:15 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Yup, seen that one before. The John Harris stuff on the guardian is good as well.

Long before this vote, one of the main reasons that people like me were so against this was because we doubted that a UK Govt would put the money that places like that desperately need.

And that hasn't change

Not even a Corbyn government. Or the lib dems?

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:30 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:Me too, I would have in place a qualifying minimum intellect for a start.

If the threshold for the 2016 referendum had been that you needed a minimum IQ of just 50 to vote then not one single person in the entire country would have voted to leave.

I reckon had they made the cut-off 140, leave would have won easily. It'd take out all the woolly-thinking, middling remainers, you see, leaving only the highly analytical with a vote.

(It's not nice being told "You're too thick to vote" is it? This has been a problem throughout.)

Burnley Ace · Post by **Burnley Ace** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:00 pm

If it be your will wrote: (It's not nice being told "You're too thick to vote" is it? This has been a problem throughout.)

That is the reality.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:10 pm

martin_p wrote:In other news Watford didn’t lose the FA Cup because they weren’t holders. Bet they’re feeling better about it now.

Lancasterclaret wrote:Brexit Party lost a leave seat to a useless Labour Party is the story today.

It's a stone cold fact that the Brexit Party were not the currrnt incumbent in the constituency where the by election took place.

Consequently, they could not lose the seat. They failed to win it, that's true. But to lose a seat you first have to be the current holders.

It's not difficult.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:11 pm

Posts directly above are the reason this country is in the bloody mess it is in. When did we stop allowing empathy.... when all other rights are jockeying for TV time the right to have a difference of opinion without someone resorting to abuse has been sadly neglected.

Edit....Not including ringo’s that I have yet to read

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:11 pm

elwaclaret wrote:Posts directly above are the reason this country is in the bloody mess it is in. When did we stop allowing empathy.... when all other rights are jockeying for TV time the right to have a difference of opinion without someone resorting to abuse has been sadly neglected.

You're allowed empathy, it's just that if you express it in any way you're a virtue-signaller. These fascists have a few neat ways of avoiding ever having to think about things.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:13 pm

aggi wrote:I guess I believe in Parliamentary sovereignity regardless of the result whereas you only believe in sovereignity if it agrees with what you want.

Personally I feel we should have left with May's deal or similar but unfortunately the "Brexit at all costs" (apart from this cost) MPs put the kibosh on that.

And you believe that democracy should not be implemented if you don't agree with it.

Give Zimbabwe a recce. I reckon you'd fit in

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:16 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Whats happened to Liz, have you retired that moniker?

If you're gullible enough to have ever believed that was actually me. Then fair play to whichever crazed loner it is that mugged you off. And you drone on about intellect!

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:18 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:You're allowed empathy, it's just that if you express it in any way you're a virtue-signaller. These fascists have a few neat ways of avoiding ever having to think about things.

I disagree completely with yourself on most things... yet I’m unaware that I have at any point questioned your intellect or doubted your belief in your position as Ill thought out... as far as I’m aware. Just different than mine, whether through different information or different socialisation is my first question. Usually

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:19 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:I don’t have a problem with that, in fact I would encourage it. I would rather a smaller electorate wha have some understanding of the issues than some of the fickle voters that have a vote now.

You'd encourage "a small number of voters to elect dangerous extremists!"

The fact you're a Corbynista and Mcdonald admirer all makes sense now.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:23 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:It’s groundhog day but here we go again!!

Democracy (which you keep quoting but don’t really understand) is more than the winner takes all that you want it to be. MPs represent everyone, not just those that voted for them. They represent the 16,900,000 people that voted remain. They also represent those EU citizens that live in the U.K. (and pay tax in the U.K.) that weren’t allowed to vote.

MPs are elected to represent us all using their best judgment - that is the democratic society we live in.

Get your facts straight. It was 16,141,241.

Our representatives best judgment was to delegate the decision to the People.

The People said "Leave"

Democracy - it relies on the willingness on those that lose elections and referenda to accept , gracefully, that they lost.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:26 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Get your facts straight. It was 16,141,241.

Our representatives best judgment was to delegate the decision to the People.

The People said "Leave"

Democracy - it relies on the willingness on those that lose elections and referenda to accept , gracefully, that they lost.

There is very little GRACE on either side to be fair.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:27 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Ringo won't accept that in a million years. Even though its what our democracy is based on. Our entire democratic system is based on that premise, and Ringo won't accept it because its not what he wants to believe.

Thats where we are as a country sadly.

Our democratic system is based on the willingness on those that lose elections and referenda to accept , gracefully, that they lost.

Any news about admitting you were wrong on EU funding coming back to the UK , and the EU allowing the banks to bailed out and not allowing the government to bail out British steel. Which is what I said, and you claimed I was '"making stuff up"?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:29 pm

elwaclaret wrote:I disagree completely with yourself on most things... yet I’m unaware that I have at any point questioned your intellect or doubted your belief in your position as Ill thought out... as far as I’m aware. Just different than mine, whether through different information or different socialisation is my first question. Usually

What?

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:31 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:Me too, I would have in place a qualifying minimum intellect for a start.

If the threshold for the 2016 referendum had been that you needed a minimum IQ of just 50 to vote then not one single person in the entire country would have voted to leave.

And that attitude was one of the very reasons that brought about the referendum result.

So thank you for playing your part, though small, in helping bring about , the largest single expression of democracy this country has ever witnessed.

Good effort!

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:40 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:What?

In conclusion... we used to be taught not to talk down to people. On here all of a sudden it often seems the go to position in any discussion. Among some otherwise clearly deep thinking individuals. I doubt many on here are trying to tell “Lies”. I’m more interested in why we differ... I’ve never decided I know enough to be completely certain of anything.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:57 pm

elwaclaret wrote:In conclusion... we used to be taught not to talk down to people. On here all of a sudden it often seems the go to position in any discussion. Among some otherwise clearly deep thinking individuals. I doubt many on here are trying to tell “Lies”. I’m more interested in why we differ... I’ve never decided I know enough to be completely certain of anything.

I was explaining to you that some people think expressions of empathy is virtue-signalling.

I don't know what your reply to that has to do with what I said, but ok.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:01 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I was explaining to you that some people think expressions of empathy is virtue-signalling.

I don't know what your reply to that has to do with what I said, but ok.

Sorry been a long day with the books. Yes can see how it could be misconstrued. But forgive me not changing. If I had all the answers I wouldn’t need a message board.

Burnley Ace · Post by **Burnley Ace** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:05 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Get your facts straight. It was 16,141,241.

Our representatives best judgment was to delegate the decision to the People.

The People said "Leave"

Democracy - it relies on the willingness on those that lose elections and referenda to accept , gracefully, that they lost.

They have a duty to represent the 16,142,241 people who voted remain just as much as those that voted leave. The beauty of a Democracy is that the Representatives can change their mind, it’s not a fixed point. Democracy relies on that win elections and referenda to accept, gracefully, that whilst they may have won, they should always be ready to accept that circumstances change and they should reconsider.

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:05 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:It's a stone cold fact that the Brexit Party were not the currrnt incumbent in the constituency where the by election took place.

Consequently, they could not lose the seat. They failed to win it, that's true. But to lose a seat you first have to be the current holders.

It's not difficult.

Is it Monday already? Bloody hell, back to work - feels like I only just left.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:06 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:They have a duty to represent the 16,142,241 people who voted remain just as much as those that voted leave. The beauty of a Democracy is that the Representatives can change their mind, it’s not a fixed point. Democracy relies on that win elections and referenda to accept, gracefully, that whilst they may have won, they should always be ready to accept that circumstances change and they should reconsider.

NO!

It's undemocratic to change your mind!

Burnley Ace · Post by **Burnley Ace** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:11 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:You'd encourage "a small number of voters to elect dangerous extremists!"

The fact you're a Corbynista and Mcdonald admirer all makes sense now.

You are making things up again!! Where have I mentioned dangerous extremists?

Find one text (out of the 1000 I have posted) where I have stayed I support Corbyn, McDonald or even the Labour Party!

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:13 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:They have a duty to represent the 16,142,241 people who voted remain just as much as those that voted leave. The beauty of a Democracy is that the Representatives can change their mind, it’s not a fixed point. Democracy relies on that win elections and referenda to accept, gracefully, that whilst they may have won, they should always be ready to accept that circumstances change and they should reconsider.

Terminology I would suggest is the route of this row. A traditional British referendum IS the last resort, and has been tantamount to going above parliaments head... for them to enact.

EU definition is more akin to a survey of the public.

Just more spineless wonder Cameron games I suspect... why he wouldn’t allow for prep for leave.... he wanted to ignore any leave vote, but sh!t himself and resigned after the vote, leaving it for May to deal with it.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:11 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:They have a duty to represent the 16,142,241 people who voted remain just as much as those that voted leave. The beauty of a Democracy is that the Representatives can change their mind, it’s not a fixed point. Democracy relies on that win elections and referenda to accept, gracefully, that whilst they may have won, they should always be ready to accept that circumstances change and they should reconsider.

Yes, but they can't do that by voting to remain and to leave so that everyone's happy. They have to vote one way or the other, and we were lead to believe (rightly or wrongly) that the referendum was a way of establishing which position the government should take. Now, from the posts on here I almost start to wonder if the government and the Remain campaign knew all along that they would not implement the result if it went the wrong way and all these specious arguments were already prepared. It seems unlikely, but the more people are prepared to propound them and expect to be taken seriously ...

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:52 pm

dsr wrote:Yes, but they can't do that by voting to remain and to leave so that everyone's happy. They have to vote one way or the other, and we were lead to believe (rightly or wrongly) that the referendum was a way of establishing which position the government should take. Now, from the posts on here I almost start to wonder if the government and the Remain campaign knew all along that they would not implement the result if it went the wrong way and all these specious arguments were already prepared. It seems unlikely, but the more people are prepared to propound them and expect to be taken seriously ...

It's impossible to be certain that the government had no intention of implementing the referendum result,but the fact that no preparations where in place in the event of a leave vote,is either incompetent or shows that the establishment had no plans on upholding the result,either answer is a gross insult to the millions of leave voters.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:13 am

dsr wrote:Yes, but they can't do that by voting to remain and to leave so that everyone's happy. They have to vote one way or the other, and we were lead to believe (rightly or wrongly) that the referendum was a way of establishing which position the government should take. Now, from the posts on here I almost start to wonder if the government and the Remain campaign knew all along that they would not implement the result if it went the wrong way and all these specious arguments were already prepared. It seems unlikely, but the more people are prepared to propound them and expect to be taken seriously ...

I think most would agree that if May hadn't suddenly switched to pushing a much harder Brexit than the referendum result justified we'd be out of the EU now.

I find it difficult to believe that she was such a master tactician that she pushed for that hard Brexit as she knew it wouldn't go through though.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:19 am

aggi wrote:I think most would agree that if May hadn't suddenly switched to pushing a much harder Brexit than the referendum result justified we'd be out of the EU now.

I find it difficult to believe that she was such a master tactician that she pushed for that hard Brexit as she knew it wouldn't go through though.

The result was leave.
The how wasn't asked, so hard or soft was down to the government to deal with.
If she'd gone with soft from the beginning we'd most likely still be having roadblocks thrown in the way at every opportunity by remain.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:20 am

aggi wrote:I think most would agree that if May hadn't suddenly switched to pushing a much harder Brexit than the referendum result justified we'd be out of the EU now.

I find it difficult to believe that she was such a master tactician that she pushed for that hard Brexit as she knew it wouldn't go through though.

You think May's agreement, which gave the EU everything they asked for, was a cunning plan to be so bad a deal that the house of Commons was bound to reject it? Hmm. I don't think she is either devious enough or clever enough to do that.