Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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Elizabeth
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:15 pm

So you have no evidence, thought as much

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Tall Paul » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:15 pm

Elizabeth wrote:So you have no evidence, thought as much
What do I need evidence for, I haven't made any claims?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:21 pm

When people question others I think it is fair to think that they have something to offer themselves. Don't you?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:32 pm

As you usually reply within a minute I am guessing you can't or are penning a proper response and want time to think.
I have no children to go out and play football with but I am able to walk and enjoy this lovely day.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Tall Paul » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:35 pm

When people claim that something is clear, I think it's fair to expect them to provide evidence to back up that claim. Don't you?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:23 pm

Tbf, Ringo’s never been great with the whole “evidence” thing.
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Elizabeth
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:18 pm

Asking questions only without offering anything yourself is pretty weak in my opinion
Let me try for you.
You want a 2nd referendum, am I right or wrong?
Do you think that the number of people who voted leave has reduced enough to make a difference?
If so why do you think this?

Direct questions that anyone who wishes to be transparent should be willing to answer.

I will attempt to encourage you to answer questions instead of simply asking them by adding that if the leave vote had started to cave in there is no way the Brexit Party would have had so much support. I know you don't want to come to terms with the fact the European elections were a big success for this party but eventually people have to take their heads out of the sand.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spiral » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:10 am

Elizabeth wrote:You want a 2nd referendum, am I right or wrong?
Do you think that the number of people who voted leave has reduced enough to make a difference?
If so why do you think this?
I'll take up the challenge, Ringo.

1. I'd like a 2nd referendum.
2. Yes.
3. Heart disease, entropy, realpolitik, untenable bull$hit & broken promises.

Why did you vote remain, Elizabeth? Would you vote remain again in a 2nd referendum?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:21 am

Spiral wrote:1. I'd like a 2nd referendum.
2. Yes.
3. Heart disease, entropy, realpolitik, untenable [deleted] & broken promises.
Remember that people have grown three years older and wiser. Experience has shown that the longer people live in the EU, the less they like it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spiral » Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:25 am

Precisely four fifths of f.uck all has happened in the last three years that would convince 2016 remain voters that the country is now, in fact, on reflection, better served by leaving the EU, and the predictable response, somewhere along the lines of 'the bullying EU showing themselves for what they truly are' or whatever brand of faux victimhood you wish to bathe in, is a fiction which only ever existed in the minds of the most devout and delusional leavers, I assure you. If you believe there's a conveyor belt of 45 year-olds primed and ready for bit of euroscepticism upon hitting 46 you're sadly mistaken. The demarcation line was drawn in 2016; a line on an issue of seismic and inescapable consequence. A 45 year-old remainer is taking that belief to his grave.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndyClaret » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:31 am

1 in 5 Remain voters now want to leave, whereas only 1 in 10 leave voters have changed their minds.

https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/ ... 2343859200" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:52 am

AndyClaret wrote:1 in 5 Remain voters now want to leave, whereas only 1 in 10 leave voters have changed their minds.

https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/ ... 2343859200" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And 67% of the country don’t want ‘no deal’ showing how out of touch with the people who he two prospective PMs are.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:35 am

AndyClaret wrote:1 in 5 Remain voters now want to leave, whereas only 1 in 10 leave voters have changed their minds.

https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/ ... 2343859200" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But presumably that 1 in 5 would include people like myself, who really want to remain, but whose position is that, (due to the referendum result), we should leave with a deal that causes the least amount of damage. (i.e some kind of Norway or Canada ++)
It all depends how the question is phrased.
If you pose the question: "leave with a sensible deal v revoke", then myself (along with many remainers, such as Lancaster I suspect), would "want" leave, but if it's" leave at any cost v revoke", then it has to be 2nd referendum and remain.
This has been the big flaw in the thinking of ERG / Farage types. They could drag the majority along with them, (and Parliament also) if they were sensible and moderate and willing to embrace the whole of the UK, but their uncompromising stance has blocked any chance of a deal and has brought us to the brink of a binary decision between walking away on Oct 31st with nothing or delaying again and revisiting the argument again and again.
With all the implications for the unity of the UK if we were to simply walk out on Oct 31st with "no deal" I simply cannot see sovereign Parliament allowing it to happen, and rightly so.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by tiger76 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:30 am

nil_desperandum wrote:But presumably that 1 in 5 would include people like myself, who really want to remain, but whose position is that, (due to the referendum result), we should leave with a deal that causes the least amount of damage. (i.e some kind of Norway or Canada ++)
It all depends how the question is phrased.
If you pose the question: "leave with a sensible deal v revoke", then myself (along with many remainers, such as Lancaster I suspect), would "want" leave, but if it's" leave at any cost v revoke", then it has to be 2nd referendum and remain.
This has been the big flaw in the thinking of ERG / Farage types. They could drag the majority along with them, (and Parliament also) if they were sensible and moderate and willing to embrace the whole of the UK, but their uncompromising stance has blocked any chance of a deal and has brought us to the brink of a binary decision between walking away on Oct 31st with nothing or delaying again and revisiting the argument again and again.
With all the implications for the unity of the UK if we were to simply walk out on Oct 31st with "no deal" I simply cannot see sovereign Parliament allowing it to happen, and rightly so.

Ideally we will find a sensible compromise and leave in the Autumn,even Boris in as much as you can believe anything he says,used the phrase "sensible brexit" in one of his interviews/hustings a few days ago,so hopefully he's realising that to ensure the UK'S orderly departure in October there has to be some common sense.

I voted leave in 2016,but if the ERG types keep pushing for a crash-out no-deal without any mandate,they'll end up with no brexit(i.e revoke) or a 2nd referendum,which if the choice was no-deal or remain i'd reluctantly have to vote remain.

All the indications pre the 2016 referendum where that the UK would be able to negotiate a good deal,while Theresa May's deal isn't perfect ATM it's the only viable way we have of exiting,i don't buy that either Hunt or Johnson could radically tweak the WA,what they could do is get movement on the future relationship down the line.

You're correct that parliament won''t allow a no-deal,or if they are pushed to choose no-deal or 2nd referendum/revoke they'll opt for one of the latter options,if the UK doesn't end up leaving it'll be on the ERG'S heads,they had ample chances to advance the brexit process,and for whatever reason unbeknown only to themselves decided to play Russian roulette.
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Tall Paul
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Tall Paul » Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:41 am

Elizabeth wrote:Asking questions only without offering anything yourself is pretty weak in my opinion
Let me try for you.
You want a 2nd referendum, am I right or wrong?
Do you think that the number of people who voted leave has reduced enough to make a difference?
If so why do you think this?

Direct questions that anyone who wishes to be transparent should be willing to answer.

I will attempt to encourage you to answer questions instead of simply asking them by adding that if the leave vote had started to cave in there is no way the Brexit Party would have had so much support. I know you don't want to come to terms with the fact the European elections were a big success for this party but eventually people have to take their heads out of the sand.
Your deflection tactics won't work with me.

I might answer your questions after you either provide evidence for your statement that "Clearly the people who voted leave haven't changed their mind." or concede that it isn't true.

Elizabeth
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:55 am

Once again I find your response somewhat chicken.
However I will play your game even though I notice you use the word 'might' and not ''will'.
Sir John Curtice, professor of politics , and considered to be a leading figure in analysing how voters would vote again if there was a 2nd referendum is worth reading. He supports my belief that the majority of leave voters would vote the same way again and is of the opinion voters don't want a 2nd referendum.
Read up about his views and let me know your arguments against the professor.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Tall Paul » Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:28 pm

Elizabeth wrote:Once again I find your response somewhat chicken.
However I will play your game even though I notice you use the word 'might' and not ''will'.
Sir John Curtice, professor of politics , and considered to be a leading figure in analysing how voters would vote again if there was a 2nd referendum is worth reading. He supports my belief that the majority of leave voters would vote the same way again and is of the opinion voters don't want a 2nd referendum.
Read up about his views and let me know your arguments against the professor.
If your belief is that a majority of leave voters would vote the same way again, that means you must believe that some leave voters have changed their minds, which is the opposite of your original statement.

I'm not arguing against the professor, he doesn't appear to have made any stupid statements like you did.

Elizabeth
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:43 pm

That is what I said in my original statement so how is that different?
You seem to be arguing about nothing.
So now are you going to answer my questions?

And remember for the small number of leave voters who would change, there will also be remain voters who will also change .
I doubt you have really read the professors views in full.
You see you don't tell me which way you are arguing so your contribution really amounts to name calling

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Tall Paul » Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:51 pm

Elizabeth wrote:That is what I said in my original statement so how is that different?
No it isn't, you said the people who voted leave haven't changed their minds and now you're saying that some of them have.
You see you don't tell me which way you are arguing so your contribution really amounts to name calling
I have told you which way I'm arguing, I'm arguing that your statement isn't true. My opinion on a second referendum is totally irrelevant to whether it's true or not and I haven't called anyone any names.

Elizabeth
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:57 pm

I think you could cause an argument in an empty room.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Goalposts » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:26 pm

what i now know about bexit that 3 years ago i was not as knowledgeable about.

we were lied to/ mis-directed deceived in the run up to the vote
the EU is not that democratic essentially Germany and France decide what happens, when we were in we also used to shape it, aligning ourselves more to the Germans and dutch than the french.
The anti EU parties in each of the larger economies of the EU is growing France-Italy- Germany- Holland), so those that are net contributors essentially
the pro EU countries are the nett benefactors , Ireland , Portugal , Poland, Czech, Spain , Hungary, Estonia etc

6,8 billion euro is spent in administration
53 billion euro is spent on agriculture of which France is the largest benefactor
leaving has the potential for utter chaos,
staying is equally as troublesome though not in the short term
the country is split pretty much 50/50 on staying and remaining, so are our political parties, so our current parties do not align to the thoughts of the populace with the exception of brexit party and liberals

the UK payments to the EU is the equivalent of £220,per head of population, the Norwegians pay £140 as part of there EU deal

in essence it comes down to gut decision, Brave or foolish in your decision to leave in the belief / hope that things will get better. in essence a confidence instinct

scared of change or belief in that the EU will grow get stronger and we cannot afford to be outside it as we are inconsequential.. in essence a risk averse fearful instinct

Paul Waine
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:26 pm

Goalposts wrote:what i now know about bexit that 3 years ago i was not as knowledgeable about.

we were lied to/ mis-directed deceived in the run up to the vote
the EU is not that democratic essentially Germany and France decide what happens, when we were in we also used to shape it, aligning ourselves more to the Germans and dutch than the french.
The anti EU parties in each of the larger economies of the EU is growing France-Italy- Germany- Holland), so those that are net contributors essentially
the pro EU countries are the nett benefactors , Ireland , Portugal , Poland, Czech, Spain , Hungary, Estonia etc

6,8 billion euro is spent in administration
53 billion euro is spent on agriculture of which France is the largest benefactor
leaving has the potential for utter chaos,
staying is equally as troublesome though not in the short term
the country is split pretty much 50/50 on staying and remaining, so are our political parties, so our current parties do not align to the thoughts of the populace with the exception of brexit party and liberals

the UK payments to the EU is the equivalent of £220,per head of population, the Norwegians pay £140 as part of there EU deal

in essence it comes down to gut decision, Brave or foolish in your decision to leave in the belief / hope that things will get better. in essence a confidence instinct

scared of change or belief in that the EU will grow get stronger and we cannot afford to be outside it as we are inconsequential.. in essence a risk averse fearful instinct
An interesting post, Goalposts. I hope you can excuse me from mentioning that I think you mean "beneficiary" where you have written "benefactor."

Definitions: "benefactor" = a person who gives money or other help to a person or cause.
"beneficiary" = a person who receives money or other benefits from a benefactor.

EDIT: And, I had to do a bit of "fact checking" on the Euro 53 bn you quote re CAP. I'd forgotten it is so big, currently 38% of the EU total budget. And, France receives 8+ bn, i.e. more than 15% of the total. Anyone know how the number of French farmers compare with the total EU farming population? Or, how the French farmers' share CAP compares with the farming populations of Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece - and all the other countries with major farming sectors?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:40 pm

Elizabeth wrote:That is what I said in my original statement so how is that different?
You seem to be arguing about nothing.
So now are you going to answer my questions?

And remember for the small number of leave voters who would change, there will also be remain voters who will also change .
I doubt you have really read the professors views in full.
You see you don't tell me which way you are arguing so your contribution really amounts to name calling
Classic Wrongo!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by elwaclaret » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:48 pm

martin_p wrote:Classic Wrongo!

Be my bet too

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:21 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... SApp_Other

Bet Nigel and co were shocked that, despite turning their backs to the music, they could still hear it! Way to go Nige! :lol:

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by JohnMcGreal » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:29 pm

martin_p wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... SApp_Other

Bet Nigel and co were shocked that, despite turning their backs to the music, they could still hear it! Way to go Nige! :lol:
What an embarrassment.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:31 pm

I look forward to the Venn diagram of those who agreed with this protest and disagreed with the Colin Kaepernick ones.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:53 pm

aggi wrote:I look forward to the Venn diagram of those who agreed with this protest and disagreed with the Colin Kaepernick ones.
Or indeed those who agreed with the various protests against the FIFA anthem (Man City were censured and fined for their fans' whistling through the anthem, if I remember rightly).

It's a matter of whose anthems you respect, really. In general, as Tajini pointed out, you show respect to another country's anthem. But obviously, neither the EU nor FIFA are countries.

It seems petty and pointless. I don't see any reason (when you're taking the EU's coin) not to stand there being polite. Politeness costs nothing.
And of course by disrespecting the anthem, they are making out that they are opposed to the EU per se - but so far as their manifesto went, so far as I know they were only opposed to the UK's membership of it. They surely aren't trying to bring down the EU.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Quickenthetempo » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:24 pm

Has anything actually happened with Brexit since they delayed leaving?

To actually justify any delays?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:25 pm

dsr wrote:Or indeed those who agreed with the various protests against the FIFA anthem (Man City were censured and fined for their fans' whistling through the anthem, if I remember rightly).

It's a matter of whose anthems you respect, really. In general, as Tajini pointed out, you show respect to another country's anthem. But obviously, neither the EU nor FIFA are countries.

It seems petty and pointless. I don't see any reason (when you're taking the EU's coin) not to stand there being polite. Politeness costs nothing.
And of course by disrespecting the anthem, they are making out that they are opposed to the EU per se - but so far as their manifesto went, so far as I know they were only opposed to the UK's membership of it. They surely aren't trying to bring down the EU.
Man City fans were a bit different, they weren't being paid to be there, they were paying to be there. With Kaepernick there were plenty of comments about him being happy to take the money but not happy to respect the institution.

As you say, it just seems a bit petty and pointless. Not the kind of thing you'd do if you want to be taken seriously. I think we'll see more of it though, the Brexit Party have pretty much admitted that they're not there to engage so I assume this kind of thing is how they'll get the message (such as it is) across.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:26 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:Has anything actually happened with Brexit since they delayed leaving?

To actually justify any delays?
The Tories have spent lots of time bickering and making wild Brexit promises.

So no, business as usual.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:42 pm

The UK Parliament declares a "climate emergency" and commits the UK to carbon neutral by 2050.

The same week that HM treasury announces that VAT on solar panels will have to rise from 5% to 20% due to EU state aid rules!!!!!!!!!


The Renewable Energy Associatio has called on HMRC to cancel the latest increase, which would come into effect as the UK prepares to leave the EU. Any rise should be cancelled as soon as possible after Brexit, the trade group added.

The calls have won the support of more than 11,000 members of the public who have signed a petition by the green energy supplier Good Energy to call off the increase.

Juliet Davenport, Good Energy’s chief executive, said the rise was “possibly the worst way to respond to a climate emergency”.

The Renewable Energy Association (REA) said the rise “contradicts the government’s commitment to tackling climate change” only weeks afterparliament declared a climate emergenc

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ry-systems" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I hope europhiles are pleased with themselves.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:43 pm

“The greatest insult to a sitting US president ever.” - Nigel Farage's words about the Trump blimp. Protest is fine when it's his side doing it. A little like freedom of comic expression.

He recently stepped onto a stage to the sound of air raid sirens. The sacrifices made by our ancestors seventy-odd years ago belong to all of us, and like national emblems are debased when co-opted for political use. What he's doing is no different to wiping his arse with the Union Flag.
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AndrewJB
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:48 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:The UK Parliament declares a "climate emergency" and commits the UK to carbon neutral by 2050.

The same week that HM treasury announces that VAT on solar panels will have to rise from 5% to 20% due to EU state aid rules!!!!!!!!!


The Renewable Energy Associatio has called on HMRC to cancel the latest increase, which would come into effect as the UK prepares to leave the EU. Any rise should be cancelled as soon as possible after Brexit, the trade group added.

The calls have won the support of more than 11,000 members of the public who have signed a petition by the green energy supplier Good Energy to call off the increase.

Juliet Davenport, Good Energy’s chief executive, said the rise was “possibly the worst way to respond to a climate emergency”.

The Renewable Energy Association (REA) said the rise “contradicts the government’s commitment to tackling climate change” only weeks afterparliament declared a climate emergenc

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ry-systems" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I hope europhiles are pleased with themselves.
Our anti-green government love this. Plenty of ways around it though. Let's see if they make use of any?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:52 pm

AndrewJB wrote:Our anti-green government love this. Plenty of ways around it though. Let's see if they make use of any?
Implementing the democratically expressed wishes of 17.4 million people and leaving the EU would be the obvious route.

Call me old fashioned......

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by LeuvenClaret » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:44 pm

Never had you down as a green voter Ringo ... you know they are a remain party right?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:22 pm

I’m enjoying the Brexit MEP’s making complete bellends out of themselves.
Whinging about iPads, whinging about how difficult it is to get to from Ipswich. Turning their backs on the opening ceremony, whinging about how big the place is.

Very odd bunch of people.
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South West Claret.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by South West Claret. » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:30 pm

martin_p wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... SApp_Other

Bet Nigel and co were shocked that, despite turning their backs to the music, they could still hear it! Way to go Nige! :lol:
How desperate and childish.
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AndrewJB
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:02 pm

Just to add a little perspective, here's a list of the main concessions Cameron requested from Brussels before this sorry saga began, and what the EU responses were:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics- ... m-35622105" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Two things spring to mind for me. The EU were actually a lot more amenable than I remember reading about at the time. I think the reason his efforts were seen as a failure is (as we now know) there are some within the Tory Party for whom no concession would have been good enough. Secondly, when you look at the list, the kinds of things he's asking for suggest that his government mostly wanted to repatriate powers around the social charter, worker rights, regulations, and restrictions on the access of benefits. This could be because they were disappointed with EU rules, and wanted the UK to have enhanced worker rights. Or because they wanted to have the power to trash them. Any guesses?
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RingoMcCartney
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:35 pm

LeuvenClaret wrote:Never had you down as a green voter Ringo ... you know they are a remain party right?
I'm against anything that would have a negative impact on British workers and their jobs. The sooner we leave the sooner we can reduce the VAT on solar panels back to the more attractive 5% from the EU imposed 20%


Here's another good thing about Brexit.

Leaving the EU’s disgraceful farming system.

From the Remoaner bible -

"I’m a remainer, but there’s one result of Brexit I can’t wait to see: leaving the EU’s common agricultural policy. This is the farm subsidy system that spends €50bn (£44bn) a year on achieving none of its objectives. It is among the most powerful drivers of environmental destruction in the northern hemisphere. Because payments are made only for land that’s in “agricultural condition”, the system creates a perverse incentive to clear wildlife habitats, even in places unsuitable for farming, to produce the empty ground that qualifies for public money. These payments have led to the destruction of hundreds of thousands of hectares of magnificent wild places across Europe.

It is also arguably the most regressive transfer of public money in the modern world. Farmers are paid by the hectare for owning or using land; so the more you have, the more you get. While in the UK benefits for poor people are capped at £20,000 (outside London), these benefits for the rich are uncapped. Some landowners receive £1m or more. You don’t even have to live in the EU to take this money: you just have to own land here. Among the benefit tourists sucking up public funds in the age of austerity are Russian oligarchs, Saudi princes and Texas oil barons."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... griculture" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Arch Remoaner , Michael Heseltine, receives around £90,000 each and every year. Simply for keeping some of his many acres of land fallow, as part of the EU's common agricultural policy.

Perhaps that's why he's such a determined and evangelical, democracy denier.

JohnMcGreal
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by JohnMcGreal » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:39 pm

AndrewJB wrote:Just to add a little perspective, here's a list of the main concessions Cameron requested from Brussels before this sorry saga began, and what the EU responses were:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics- ... m-35622105" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Two things spring to mind for me. The EU were actually a lot more amenable than I remember reading about at the time. I think the reason his efforts were seen as a failure is (as we now know) there are some within the Tory Party for whom no concession would have been good enough. Secondly, when you look at the list, the kinds of things he's asking for suggest that his government mostly wanted to repatriate powers around the social charter, worker rights, regulations, and restrictions on the access of benefits. This could be because they were disappointed with EU rules, and wanted the UK to have enhanced worker rights. Or because they wanted to have the power to trash them. Any guesses?
All of those were crumbs to feed the nutters on the hard right wing of his party and the oddballs in UKIP. It was all done to try and keep them happy. A foolish move from the outset, because those people will never be satisfied with any concessions. Look at how they refused to support the withdrawal agreement which would have actually allowed us to leave the EU. They're zealots who want their perfect Brexit and nothing less, even if it destroys the country in the process.

You simply can't appease people like that. You have to stand up to them and beat them. If he was thinking of the national interest and not just the interests of his party, he would have done that instead of taking the cowardly route.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by LeuvenClaret » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:48 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:I'm against anything that would have a negative impact on British workers and their jobs. .

All u want to do is leave at all cost and **** everyone in the process.... that my friend is clear to see.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:21 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:I'm against anything that would have a negative impact on British workers and their jobs.
Wrongo comes out as anti Brexit at last!
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:24 pm

LeuvenClaret wrote:All u want to do is leave at all cost and **** everyone in the process.... that my friend is clear to see.
I've just posted to examples of, both from the Guardian, the benefits of leaving the EU. Yet rather than attempt to defend the EU, you prefer to play the man not the ball. That my friend, is even clearer to see.........

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:26 pm

martin_p wrote:Wrongo comes out as anti Brexit at last!
It's not as if millions of manufacturing jobs have been lost while in the EU is it Marty?

Don't tell me. Nowt to do with the EU whatsoever.

Save your breath.

LeuvenClaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by LeuvenClaret » Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:50 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:I've just posted to examples of, both from the Guardian, the benefits of leaving the EU. Yet rather than attempt to defend the EU, you prefer to play the man not the ball. That my friend, is even clearer to see.........
Where were u on these announcements:-
Nissan
Honda
Mini
British Steel

To name a few

Ohh no u pick a shitty little tax to prove your leave at all expense point of view that WRONGLY claims to be supporting BRITISH JOBS. You are a leave at all costs charlatan.... nothing else.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:10 pm

LeuvenClaret wrote:Where were u on these announcements:-
Nissan
Honda
Mini
British Steel

To name a few

Ohh no u pick a shitty little tax to prove your leave at all expense point of view that WRONGLY claims to be supporting BRITISH JOBS. You are a leave at all costs charlatan.... nothing else.
Nissan - production of a model that's only available in diesel and by comparison rarely sells in the UK and Europe has had production moved back to Japan, hardly a shock.

Honda - EU trade deal with Japan means that it's tariff free now to import cars, so Honda can make over in Japan and look after its own people.

British Steel - been on its arse for years, well before Brexit was voted upon, partly due an influx of cheaper steel from places like China.

Mini - what have I missed?
They're still building it here, are going to build the electric one here too last I heard.
The supply chain is critical though, like most automotive plants they don't stock parts, or a minimal amount, it's straight in one door and fitted pretty much
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:18 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:I'm against anything that would have a negative impact on British workers and their jobs. The sooner we leave the sooner we can reduce the VAT on solar panels back to the more attractive 5% from the EU imposed 20%


Here's another good thing about Brexit.

Leaving the EU’s disgraceful farming system.

From the Remoaner bible -

"I’m a remainer, but there’s one result of Brexit I can’t wait to see: leaving the EU’s common agricultural policy. This is the farm subsidy system that spends €50bn (£44bn) a year on achieving none of its objectives. It is among the most powerful drivers of environmental destruction in the northern hemisphere. Because payments are made only for land that’s in “agricultural condition”, the system creates a perverse incentive to clear wildlife habitats, even in places unsuitable for farming, to produce the empty ground that qualifies for public money. These payments have led to the destruction of hundreds of thousands of hectares of magnificent wild places across Europe.

It is also arguably the most regressive transfer of public money in the modern world. Farmers are paid by the hectare for owning or using land; so the more you have, the more you get. While in the UK benefits for poor people are capped at £20,000 (outside London), these benefits for the rich are uncapped. Some landowners receive £1m or more. You don’t even have to live in the EU to take this money: you just have to own land here. Among the benefit tourists sucking up public funds in the age of austerity are Russian oligarchs, Saudi princes and Texas oil barons."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... griculture" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Arch Remoaner , Michael Heseltine, receives around £90,000 each and every year. Simply for keeping some of his many acres of land fallow, as part of the EU's common agricultural policy.

Perhaps that's why he's such a determined and evangelical, democracy denier.
I agree that the CAP is in dire need of reform in respect to the points Monbiot makes in the Guardian (and probably more). Interesting that when Cameron went to Brussels to renegotiate before the referendum, whereas he wanted to stop foreigners from getting in work benefits, this didn't extend to payments for just owning land.

But when held up against the benefits of being in the EU, this wouldn't be near enough to make me want to leave. There are probably ways around it (tax the subsidy back?), but for me it would be one of a long list of things I'd like to see the EU reform. With solar panels the government could easily set up a discount program - all well within EU rules, just like the cycle to work scheme - and subsidise our solar panels to their hearts content. The reason they're not doing that has nothing to do with the EU, and everything to do with the fact they aren't interested in green energy (probably because it brings down the profits for their mates in the energy industry).
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:19 pm

AndrewJB wrote:I agree that the CAP is in dire need of reform in respect to the points Monbiot makes in the Guardian (and probably more). Interesting that when Cameron went to Brussels to renegotiate before the referendum, whereas he wanted to stop foreigners from getting in work benefits, this didn't extend to payments for just owning land.

But when held up against the benefits of being in the EU, this wouldn't be near enough to make me want to leave. There are probably ways around it (tax the subsidy back?), but for me it would be one of a long list of things I'd like to see the EU reform. With solar panels the government could easily set up a discount program - all well within EU rules, just like the cycle to work scheme - and subsidise our solar panels to their hearts content. The reason they're not doing that has nothing to do with the EU, and everything to do with the fact they aren't interested in green energy (probably because it brings down the profits for their mates in the energy industry).
An interesting and well reasoned argument. The level that British politics currently trades at is perhaps remains best argument for remain or leave, depending on whether you think the EU is part of the problem or the solution... I think it is very much a balance for most reasonable people who want a good relationship with Europe and the opportunity to vote for issues that may be outside our national interest kept within our national authority as the EU moves towards federalism.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by LeuvenClaret » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:10 pm

[quote="GodIsADeeJay81] [/quote]

Was asking Wringo/Elizabeth

Locked