Brexit: The Naked Truth

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South West Claret.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by South West Claret. » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:26 pm

Muppet alert!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48869520" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

She certainly doesn't represent me thank gawd :roll:

aggi
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:32 pm

That was up there with Ronaldo likening Man Utd's refusal to sell him to Real Madrid to slavery.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Steve-Harpers-perm » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:44 pm

She is proper mental. It’s like watching a a racist gran on Christmas Day after two glasses of sherry.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:53 pm

Brexiters must be so proud.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by evensteadiereddie » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:21 pm

Dementia shouldn't be laughed at but in this case it's pretty difficult not to.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:38 pm

If it be your will wrote:Okay, but taking a step back: when you watch the shenanigans at the real seat of power - the commission - do you honestly see this as democracy in action? I'm anti-EU, you're Pro-EU, and I'm aware these positions could cloud the judgment of either of us. But when I look I'm struggling to find even a shred of democratic accountability in all this.

I'm fully aware of the potential flaws of democracy, and potential merits of some non-democratic institutions of government, but why, oh why do they make out the EU is democratic when it patently is not? It's insulting! They should at least be honest about it.
I think I should make the distinction that I'm not "pro EU", but "pro remain in our current circumstance".

Being a group of different sized countries, democracy is harder to do on the one person one vote standard in the EU. They have to balance the equality of the member states - which I'm sure you'll agree is important, with the fact that Germany, France, and Britain have larger populations than Malta, Slovakia, and Denmark. How I see the EU as a bulwark for democracy is in the EU setting rules about minimum democratic standards within member states (along with legal, and other protections).

I would love to see Britain remain in the EU, and set about having discussions with the other members about how to improve it, and make it more democratic.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Quickenthetempo » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:45 pm

She is a bit of a mentalist but she played a blinder.

All these tricks the Brexit party are playing to cause havoc in EU parliament will ensure we don't get offered another extension.

Out by the end of October. Maybe before if they really get sick of them.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:47 pm

dsr wrote:Before the election, the voters were told that the head of the largest party would be President. After the election, the Commission decided that the people had voted for the wring man so they were changing the rules and the elected Parliament would not have a say.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preside ... Commission" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Normally it's the head of the largest party, but not always.

If there were a general election here, and Labour won a majority then I'd expect Corbyn to become PM. If however a sizeable number of Labour MPs joined other parties and voted Labour down in a confidence vote, in order to install somebody else as prime minister, then I'd be disappointed (probably outraged), but it wouldn't mean our parliamentary system is broken or undemocratic.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:40 pm

AndrewJB wrote:I think I should make the distinction that I'm not "pro EU", but "pro remain in our current circumstance".

Being a group of different sized countries, democracy is harder to do on the one person one vote standard in the EU. They have to balance the equality of the member states - which I'm sure you'll agree is important, with the fact that Germany, France, and Britain have larger populations than Malta, Slovakia, and Denmark. How I see the EU as a bulwark for democracy is in the EU setting rules about minimum democratic standards within member states (along with legal, and other protections).

I would love to see Britain remain in the EU, and set about having discussions with the other members about how to improve it, and make it more democratic.
(In terms of population sizes etc, I assume you are speaking of the composition of the Council, and their QMV rules. But none of the members of the Council are elected in the first place. And none of this explains the utter lack of teeth given to the only truly democratic bit - The European Parliament.)

I think I'm reading this right: you consider the EU to be undemocratic, but they do at least insist on certain rules of democracy within member states. Noting, however, that EU law has ultimate supremacy over domestic law. So in summary, the supreme laws are made in an undemocratic fashion; subservient laws made in a democratic fashion.

If so, yes, we are not in any particular disagreement, then.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:49 pm

AndrewJB wrote:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preside ... Commission

Normally it's the head of the largest party, but not always.

If there were a general election here, and Labour won a majority then I'd expect Corbyn to become PM. If however a sizeable number of Labour MPs joined other parties and voted Labour down in a confidence vote, in order to install somebody else as prime minister, then I'd be disappointed (probably outraged), but it wouldn't mean our parliamentary system is broken or undemocratic.
A better comparison would probably be the Tories getting 260 seats, labour getting 250 but ending up with the PM in a coalition with the SNP.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:23 am

LeuvenClaret wrote:I’m sure she’s speaking for 17.4Mil people.....
I'm not.

But whether she feels she is speaking for 17.400,000 people or not.

She shouldn't be there to speak.

We should have left.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndyClaret » Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:59 am

According to the judge £350m was the correct figure, who knew ?

https://order-order.com/2019/07/04/judg ... ss-figure/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by TheFamilyCat » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:18 am

Brilliant response to Widdicombe:

In response, EU Brexit co-ordinator Guy Verhofstadt said Ms Widdecombe was giving her party leader, Nigel Farage, "stiff competition as chief clown".

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by JohnMcGreal » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:26 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:She is a bit of a mentalist but she played a blinder.

All these tricks the Brexit party are playing to cause havoc in EU parliament will ensure we don't get offered another extension.

Out by the end of October. Maybe before if they really get sick of them.
So they're trying to drive the country off a cliff and are making a complete spectacle of themselves, and by extension, all of us, in the process

These are the people we send to represent us on the world stage, and the way they're smearing **** all over themselves is shameful. We're no longer a serious country. We're an international embarrassment.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:29 am

Her speech will sit well with the many thick people we have in this country.

For anyone with at least a little bit of intelligence they will just be embarrassed.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Murger » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:42 am

Bordeauxclaret wrote:Her speech will sit well with the many thick people we have in this country.

For anyone with at least a little bit of intelligence they will just be embarrassed.
You missed out racist, bigoted, xenophobic for a full house. What a prick!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:58 am

Good point, she’s all three of those.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Damo » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:00 am

Screenshot_20190705-075518_Twitter.jpg
Screenshot_20190705-075518_Twitter.jpg (631.06 KiB) Viewed 803 times
This facist needs to be stopped from voicing her opinion on brexit

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by evensteadiereddie » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:24 am

She needs to stop being such a hypocrite like the rest of the Brexit MPs.
At least Sinn Fein, elected in several seats in a Parliament they refuse to recognise, make their political point by refusing to attend any sessions and by refusing to accept the payment and considerable perks that go with the post of MP.
Widdecombe has become part of an embarrassing freak show, with her and her fellow morons ironically wasting hundreds of thousands of pounds by stealing it from the so-called wasteful and undemocratic EU.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:13 am

Damo wrote:
Screenshot_20190705-075518_Twitter.jpg
This facist needs to be stopped from voicing her opinion on brexit
She’s perfectly at liberty to voice her opinions, just as those who find her opinions vile are at liberty to suggest she should lose some of the honours bestowed upon her. It’s what free speech is all about.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Quickenthetempo » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:25 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:So they're trying to drive the country off a cliff and are making a complete spectacle of themselves, and by extension, all of us, in the process

These are the people we send to represent us on the world stage, and the way they're smearing **** all over themselves is shameful. We're no longer a serious country. We're an international embarrassment.
We have been an international embarrassment for the last couple of years.
The people voted to leave. Yet our so called politicians show how inadequate they are at representing them.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Damo » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:33 am

martin_p wrote:She’s perfectly at liberty to voice her opinions, just as those who find her opinions vile are at liberty to suggest she should lose some of the honours bestowed upon her. It’s what free speech is all about.
I only saw a quick clip of her speech. What was it that she said that was vile?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:38 am

She’s said plenty that’s vile, the main one for me being that science may provide ‘an answer’ to homosexuality.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:54 am

martin_p wrote:She’s said plenty that’s vile, the main one for me being that science may provide ‘an answer’ to homosexuality.
And that's just it. There are those who trough religion may believe homosexuality is wrong, and there are those like her who would rather gay people cease to exist.

Her rhetoric is similar to that of German opinion in the 1930's

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Damo » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:01 am

martin_p wrote:She’s said plenty that’s vile, the main one for me being that science may provide ‘an answer’ to homosexuality.
I'll try and watch it again at some point today. Seems a bit of a strange thing to say in the EU assembly. She does seem a bit mental mind

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:03 am

Bordeauxclaret wrote:Her speech will sit well with the many thick people we have in this country.

For anyone with at least a little bit of intelligence they will just be embarrassed.
...and anyone with any more than a little bit of intelligence won't care either way.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:03 am

Damo wrote:I'll try and watch it again at some point today. Seems a bit of a strange thing to say in the EU assembly. She does seem a bit mental mind
She didn't say it there, it was a few weeks ago to the BBC. Not sure where she said it has any relevance though.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Damo » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:12 am

martin_p wrote:She didn't say it there, it was a few weeks ago to the BBC. Not sure where she said it has any relevance though.
But Unison want her to be silenced following yesterday's speech.
Not something from weeks ago (which I agree was pretty disgusting)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:13 am

I guess Damo is asking what she has said in her speech at the EU to cause all this reaction. Damo she likened the Brexit party (in its quest to leave the EU) to slaves rising up against their masters to emancipate themselves.

I guess it just reinforces her outdated and warped view of the world alongside a lot of the vile stuff she has said over the years. The petition stuff is a bit cringe but it is far more harmless and irrelevant than the crap Widdecombe spouts

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:15 am

Damo wrote:But Unison want her to be silenced following yesterday's speech.
Not something from weeks ago (which I agree was pretty disgusting)
Damo, you really need to start reading/watching the things you link (like that video yesterday). The Unison petition has been going for weeks!

And where does it say they want her silenced?
Last edited by martin_p on Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:16 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:I guess Damo is asking what she has said in her speech at the EU to cause all this reaction. Damo she likened the Brexit party (in its quest to leave the EU) to slaves rising up against their masters to emancipate themselves.

I guess it just reinforces her outdated and warped view of the world alongside a lot of the vile stuff she has said over the years. The petition stuff is a bit cringe but it is far more harmless and irrelevant than the crap Widdecombe spouts
Nothing, as I said the petition is weeks old.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:17 am

martin_p wrote:Nothing, as I said the petition is weeks old.
Fair enough my bad, skim reading a bit at work so missed the bit about the petition being outdated.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:20 am

AndyClaret wrote:According to the judge £350m was the correct figure, who knew ?

https://order-order.com/2019/07/04/judg ... ss-figure/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Wayhey, someone gullible enough to actually believe guido. I assume you didn't actually read the judgement https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/upl ... -final.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Caballo » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:22 am

Damo wrote:But Unison want her to be silenced following yesterday's speech.
Not something from weeks ago (which I agree was pretty disgusting)
Not quite true Damo, they reminded everyone to sign the petition yesterday, the original petition began 09/06 a week after her science comment.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:23 am

Caballo wrote:Not remotely true Damo, they reminded everyone to sign the petition yesterday, the original petition began 09/06 a week after her science comment.
Fixed that for you.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndyClaret » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:28 am

aggi wrote:Wayhey, someone gullible enough to actually believe guido. I assume you didn't actually read the judgement https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/upl ... -final.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Let it go son.... Let it go.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Damo » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:40 am

Caballo wrote:Not quite true Damo, they reminded everyone to sign the petition yesterday, the original petition began 09/06 a week after her science comment.
Ah, well it only came to my attention today as its trending on twitter.
I'm guessing quite a lot more people will be signing it now she has said something that offends them personally

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Damo » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:43 am

martin_p wrote:Damo, you really need to start reading/watching the things you link (like that video yesterday). The Unison petition has been going for weeks!

And where does it say they want her silenced?
What other aim would it have? Fair enough, they haven't threatened her with the gulag, or put a big piece of selotape over her mouth or anything...

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Damo » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:45 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:I guess Damo is asking what she has said in her speech at the EU to cause all this reaction. Damo she likened the Brexit party (in its quest to leave the EU) to slaves rising up against their masters to emancipate themselves.

I guess it just reinforces her outdated and warped view of the world alongside a lot of the vile stuff she has said over the years. The petition stuff is a bit cringe but it is far more harmless and irrelevant than the crap Widdecombe spouts
MP's use Rehtoric all the time DA. But what is offensive about likening leaving the EU to slaves rising up against its masters?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:47 am

Damo wrote:What other aim would it have? Fair enough, they haven't threatened her with the gulag, or put a big piece of selotape over her mouth or anything...
The aim of not having someone who’s views they find reprehensible associated with their university, you know, as it says in the petition.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:52 am

Damo wrote:MP's use Rehtoric all the time DA. But what is offensive about likening leaving the EU to slaves rising up against its masters?
Well where to start!

How many slaves do you think

- went into the slavery voluntarily
- has the option to veto the major rules it doesn’t like
- has a big voice in defining the rules
- has the option to leave their slavery
- actually isn’t a slave and is just in partnership with 27 other people to their mutual benefit

Yep, just like slavery.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:54 am

martin_p wrote:Well where to start!

How many slaves do you think

- went into the slavery voluntarily
- has the option to veto the major rules it doesn’t like
- has a big voice in defining the rules
- has the option to leave their slavery
- actually isn’t a slave and is just in partnership with 27 other people to their mutual benefit

Yep, just like slavery.
Those are arguments as to why the comparison is wrong. But why is it offensive?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:56 am

Damo wrote:MP's use Rehtoric all the time DA. But what is offensive about likening leaving the EU to slaves rising up against its masters?
Slavery is one of the most horrendous events of modern Western society so to glibly liken your plight to it could be pretty offensive. Plus there is the context of who is saying it and their views and stated opinions that makes a difference.

Had a remain MP given a speech likening themselves to the allied forces in WW2 fighting against the Brexit national populists (Nazi's) to remain in the EU and fight the rise of fascism do you not think there would have been an absolute outcry from the right? (be honest)

Im not offended by what was said and in fact from my perspective it is good that horrible people like her out herself and bring attention to her horrible views she has expressed over the years. I can however see why there would be a reaction just like they would on the other side with the example I have given you

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:58 am

If it be your will wrote:(In terms of population sizes etc, I assume you are speaking of the composition of the Council, and their QMV rules. But none of the members of the Council are elected in the first place. And none of this explains the utter lack of teeth given to the only truly democratic bit - The European Parliament.)

I think I'm reading this right: you consider the EU to be undemocratic, but they do at least insist on certain rules of democracy within member states. Noting, however, that EU law has ultimate supremacy over domestic law. So in summary, the supreme laws are made in an undemocratic fashion; subservient laws made in a democratic fashion.

If so, yes, we are not in any particular disagreement, then.
I haven't said I think the EU is undemocratic. The constituent parts are all democracies. What I was getting across - clumsily - is the federal nature of the EU makes is difficult to invest the parliament with more power, because that reduces the clout of the smaller countries (because they have fewer MEPs). It's finding the right balance.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:00 am

dsr wrote:Those are arguments as to why the comparison is wrong. But why is it offensive?
Well if you find the thought of slavery offensive then using it in an entirely inappropriate comparison is belittling the pain and struggle of those that went through it and those that continue to go through it.

It’s a bit like me losing my favourite pencil and claiming I now know how the parents of a murdered child feel. Completely inappropriate and offensive to the parents who genuinely know how it feels.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Damo » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:09 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:Slavery is one of the most horrendous events of modern Western society so to glibly liken your plight to it could be pretty offensive. Plus there is the context of who is saying it and their views and stated opinions that makes a difference.

Had a remain MP given a speech likening themselves to the allied forces in WW2 fighting against the Brexit national populists (Nazi's) to remain in the EU and fight the rise of fascism do you not think there would have been an absolute outcry from the right? (be honest)

Im not offended by what was said and in fact from my perspective it is good that horrible people like her out herself and bring attention to her horrible views she has expressed over the years. I can however see why there would be a reaction just like they would on the other side with the example I have given you
Ok. That's a fair point.
The reason things like this confuse me though, is because martin didnt seem really offended by the slave comparison a few weeks ago when a labour MP did this
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source= ... 7591962491" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Maybe hes just in one of those moods today

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:14 am

Damo wrote:Ok. That's a fair point.
The reason things like this confuse me though, is because martin didnt seem really offended by the slave comparison a few weeks ago when a labour MP did this
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source= ... 7591962491" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Maybe hes just in one of those moods today
True, but then as I rule I’m not offended by things I’m not aware of. Besides, you’re putting words into my mouth again, I never said that I was personally offended by Widdecombe’s slavery rant, you just asked me what was offensive about it.
Last edited by martin_p on Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

Greenmile
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:15 am

Damo wrote:Ok. That's a fair point.
The reason things like this confuse me though, is because martin didnt seem really offended by the slave comparison a few weeks ago when a labour MP did this
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source= ... 7591962491" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Maybe hes just in one of those moods today
Nope - the reason things like this confuse you is that you’re not very bright.

Liking a tweet and standing up and giving a speech are not really the same thing, are they?

martin_p
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:19 am

Greenmile wrote:Nope - the reason things like this confuse you is that you’re not very bright.

Liking a tweet and standing up and giving a speech are not really the same thing, are they?
But, but, but he’s taken a Mensa test!
This user liked this post: Greenmile

Damo
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Damo » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:31 am

Greenmile wrote:Nope - the reason things like this confuse you is that you’re not very bright.

Liking a tweet and standing up and giving a speech are not really the same thing, are they?
Ah, the intelligentsia is here.

Ok, so what about the context?
Widdicombe likened it to slaves, whereas the labour mp not only liked a tweet (implying that she agreed/endorsed it) that referred to slavery, while being anti-semitic too.
Are you saying one is less offensive than the other?

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