Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[RingoMcCartney]

Not really. you don’t say how freedom of movement helps people smuggling and how leaving will change this you just state your agenda.

If immigration officials are told that genuine jobs await vulnerable people and have no reason to believe otherwise. Under freedom of movememt, they are unlikely to stop them entering the country. People trafficking gangs are clearly very knowledgeable about what they need to say to get vulnerable people into this country.

Once in , they are they preyed upon by unscrupulous gang masters and God knows what.

May I ask you a question?

If ending free movement of people would end people trafficking, exploitation and modern day slavery. Would you be in favour of ending it?

[RingoMcCartney]

How can you produce evidence of a future event???

Jumped in too early again!!

I agreed with Marty when he said I only had an opinion.

That was the whole point. I said that we both simply had an opinion. It was he who claimed he had the evidence. I'm still waiting.


Epic fail NotsoAce!

[martin_p]

Probably!? from outside the EU in any case!?

1 Do you have any figures?

2 Is illegal immigration, people trafficking, exploitation and modern day slavery acceptable if it's comes from outside the EU.?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-b ... m-48881327" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's my opinion that these vermin would find it more difficult to get people into this country to exploit if free movement of people is ended.

The 4 freedoms- a polite way to describe the commoditification of human beings

Here’s the evidence that the vast majority of slavery victims in the U.K. come from countries outside the EU (the biggest numbers are from China, Vietnam and Albania). So the notion that it’s more difficult to traffic people from outside the EU just doesn’t hold water.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... lavery.pdf

[TheFamilyCat]

All of a sudden?

October 2017 - I said that ending free movement of people will help stop people trafficking, exploitation and modern day slavery.

Marty said that was just an "opinion" where as he had evidence that it would not.

It's still my opinion and I'm still waiting for Martys evidence.

You made one comment about it then. Now it seems to be all you post about.

[TheFamilyCat]

All of a sudden?

October 2017 - I said that ending free movement of people will help stop people trafficking, exploitation and modern day slavery.

Marty said that was just an "opinion" where as he had evidence that it would not.

It's still my opinion and I'm still waiting for Martys evidence.

You made one comment about it then. Now it seems to be all you post about.

[RingoMcCartney]

So why did Nigel Farage say he wasn't prepared to accept the result had we voted to remain?

Quite simple.

Had we voted REMAIN because we are in the EU already. The result would have been implemented immediately.

Nigel Farage would have then be able, in a free and democratic way, to carry on campaigning to leave the EU.

We voted to Leave, the result has not been implemented yet It has to be implemented and europhiles have every right, in a free and democratic way, to carry on campaigning to rejoin the EU.

To call for ignoring the result of the referendum and demanding another , before the first has been implemented. Is not democratic. It's paying lip service to the democratic process and simultaneously denying it.

[Burnley Ace]

Jumped in too early again!!

I agreed with Marty when he said I only had an opinion.

That was the whole point. I said that we both simply had an opinion. It was he who claimed he had the evidence. I'm still waiting.


Epic fail NotsoAce!

Lol at best jumped in too late! I stopped reading your nonsense. I was just laughing at you.

[RingoMcCartney]

Here’s the evidence that the vast majority of slavery victims in the U.K. come from countries outside the EU (the biggest numbers are from China, Vietnam and Albania). So the notion that it’s more difficult to traffic people from outside the EU just doesn’t hold water.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... lavery.pdf

Where have I said " it’s more difficult to traffic people from outside the EU"?

My arguement/opinion is that ending free movement of people will help stop people trafficking , exploitation and modern day slavery. Which is abhorrent where ever it comes from.

I haven't said it's the solution itself. It's not the be all and end all. It's a something that will help. As such we should be only too keen to do it.

It's my opinion that these vermin would find it more difficult to get people into this country to exploit if free movement of people is ended. 

You said you had evidence that it won't help. As we both know you've yet to provide it. Plus you haven't pointed to where I've made one too many slip ups either. Bit of a pattern developing.

[LeuvenClaret]

If ending free movement of people would end people trafficking, exploitation and modern day slavery. Would you be in favour of ending it?

Of course I would but you again dodge the question and just say removing free movement gives this outcome without explaining how you are going to tackle this differently. Another unicorn Brexit stand point.

Any people turning up at the port in your example under free movement or not would gain entry, how is the government going to stop this? I haven’t seen this anywhere apart from a lot of brexiteers saying it’s possible. I am genuinely interested.

Smuggling will continue in or out.

[RingoMcCartney]

Lol at best jumped in too late! I stopped reading your nonsense. I was just laughing at you.

You may want to return back to having "stopped reading your nonsense" then, jumping in too early , and thus, avoiding me laughing at you.

[martin_p]

Where have I said " it’s more difficult to traffic people from outside the EU"?

My arguement/opinion is that ending free movement of people will help stop people trafficking , exploitation and modern day slavery. Which is abhorrent where ever it comes from.

I haven't said it's the solution itself. It's not the be all and end all. It's a something that will help. As such we should be only too keen to do it.

It's my opinion that these vermin would find it more difficult to get people into this country to exploit if free movement of people is ended. 

You said you had evidence that it won't help. As we both know you've yet to provide it. Plus you haven't pointed to where I've made one too many slip ups either. Bit of a pattern developing.

You do know China, Vietnam and Albania are not part of the EU don’t you. How exactly will ending free movement stop trafficking from these countries. By the way, about a third of the victims of slavery in the U.K. are from the U.K.

[RingoMcCartney]

Of course I would but you again dodge the question and just say removing free movement gives this outcome without explaining how you are going to tackle this differently. Another unicorn Brexit stand point.

Any people turning up at the port in your example under free movement or not would gain entry, how is the government going to stop this? I haven’t seen this anywhere apart from a lot of brexiteers saying it’s possible. I am genuinely interested.

Smuggling will continue in or out.

I've explained how I believe it can happen and the scenario I described could easily happen . You say "of course I would"

So do you have any evidence that ending it won't help? Or are you still peddling your agenda of approving the commoditification of human beings?

[RingoMcCartney]

You do know China, Vietnam and Albania are not part of the EU don’t you. How exactly will ending free movement stop trafficking from these countries. By the way, about a third of the victims of slavery in the U.K. are from the U.K.

Yes I do know.

Ending the EUs free movement of people will not have help there. Didn't say it would. As indeed it won't help UK based.

But in my opinion it will help EU based. But again you claimed mine was just an opinion (which I agreed with) where as you had this mythical , so far , evidence that trumped my humble opinion. Yet to see it, and yet to be pointed to where I've made one too many slip ups.....

[martin_p]

Yes I do know.

Ending the EUs free movement of people will not have help there. Didn't say it would. As indeed it won't help UK based.

But in my opinion it will help EU based. But again you claimed mine was just an opinion (which I agreed with) where as you had this mythical , so far , evidence that trumped my humble opinion. Yet to see it, and yet to be pointed to where I've made one too many slip ups.....

So if we leave the EU and end free movement the people coming in from EU countries will undergo the same sort of checks as the rest of the world do now, let’s use three examples, China, Vietnam and Albania?

[LeuvenClaret]

I've explained how I believe it can happen and the scenario I described could easily happen . You say "of course I would"

So do you have any evidence that ending it won't help? Or are you still peddling your agenda of approving the commoditification of human beings?

So at our boarders what checks will be different than what our excellent boarder controls do today?
What extra provision will be implemented to stop this crime from happening?

Our boarders are one of the hardest to get past free movement or not. We have excellent provisions already to stop this activity so I am curious as to your cure all?

[LeuvenClaret]

Remainers- accept the referendum result. Democracy means sometimes you lose.

Remoaners- Democracy means asking again till you get the result you require.

Agenda - Democracy Denial.

While you’re name calling what do you call a Brexiteer that constantly believes in the impossible?

[martin_p]

So at our boarders what checks will be different than what our excellent boarder controls do today?
What extra provision will be implemented to stop this crime from happening?

Our boarders are one of the hardest to get past free movement or not. We have excellent provisions already to stop this activity so I am curious as to your cure all?

You won’t get an answer to this, or one that actually answers the question anyway.

[AndrewJB]

What percentage of trafficked people cin the U.K. ome from the EU?

[Tall Paul]

While you’re name calling what do you call a Brexiteer that constantly believes in the impossible?

A Brexiteer.

[nil_desperandum]

Here’s the evidence that the vast majority of slavery victims in the U.K. come from countries outside the EU (the biggest numbers are from China, Vietnam and Albania). So the notion that it’s more difficult to traffic people from outside the EU just doesn’t hold water.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... lavery.pdf

You see Ringo. That's why I used the word PROBABLY (from outside the EU).
I was pretty sure it would be the case but I didn't have time to research the DATA / EVIDENCE. But another poster, (your mate Marty, who appears more informed about this than me or you), immediately found the relevant statistics.
That's how it works when you're making a case for something.
So now that we've established that a) most of the problem is from either outside the EU - or b) already here, can you please explain how once we've left the EU it will stop the same criminals exploiting EU citizens in the UK?
Just for clarity: if they're getting here and operating illegally now, how / why would it be any different post brexit?. (The clue's in the fact that they are not here legally, so if we can track them down in the future, then logically we could do it now if we put the resources into it. Either that or we can't, but that won't change).

[RingoMcCartney]

So if we leave the EU and end free movement the people coming in from EU countries will undergo the same sort of checks as the rest of the world do now, let’s use three examples, China, Vietnam and Albania?

I believe ending free movement of people will help stop people trafficking, exploitation and modern day slavery. There's a clue in the title of the PC term for the commoditification of human beings. FREE!

You could always provide that evidence you claimed you had , that far outweighed my opinion, that it would not. Plus, explain why you are more concerned about arguing about whether it would or not, while sounding very relaxed about the abhorrent practice itself.

[Devils_Advocate]

.

[RingoMcCartney]

So at our boarders what checks will be different than what our excellent boarder controls do today?
What extra provision will be implemented to stop this crime from happening?

Our boarders are one of the hardest to get past free movement or not. We have excellent provisions already to stop this activity so I am curious as to your cure all?

You are now trying to put words in my mouth.

Where have I said ending free movement of people is a "cure all"?

Where?

I said in my opinion "it will help"
I asked you a couple of questions that you haven't answered.

1 So do you have any evidence that ending free movement of people won't help?

2 are you still peddling your agenda of approving the commoditification of human beings?

[RingoMcCartney]

While you’re name calling what do you call a Brexiteer that constantly believes in the impossible?

Believing that the common man should be able to change things via the ballot box in a free, peaceful and democratic way.

Ridiculous!

[martin_p]

I believe ending free movement of people will help stop people trafficking, exploitation and modern day slavery. There's a clue in the title of the PC term for the commoditification of human beings. FREE!

You could always provide that evidence you claimed you had , that far outweighed my opinion, that it would not. Plus, explain why you are more concerned about arguing about whether it would or not, while sounding very relaxed about the abhorrent practice itself.

The evidence is all there Wrongo, the fact that you don’t want to believe it doesn’t change that fact. Countries that don’t have freedom of movement into the U.K. traffic far more people into the country than those that do. Ergo freedom of movement is not a factor in increasing trafficking.

And to claim I’m relaxed about the practice when you are fixated on something that even by your own twisted logic will address a small percentage of the problem is hypocritical to say the least. I’d love human trafficking to disappear, but in order to do that we need to concentrate on things that will actually make a difference not some Brexiteer fantasy that isn’t backed up by any of the available evidence (much like pretty much every Brexiteer fantasy).

[aggi]

Obviously there's the possibility that leaving the EU will actually increase trafficking.

It may be that the numbers from outside the EU are so much higher than those from inside the EU because the collaborative enforcement work we do as part of the EU helps to limit it.

Leaving may result in more trafficking of EU citizens (particularly if those no deal plans of not bothering to check shipments to keep queues down happen).

[RingoMcCartney]

You see Ringo. That's why I used the word PROBABLY (from outside the EU).
I was pretty sure it would be the case but I didn't have time to research the DATA / EVIDENCE. But another poster, (your mate Marty, who appears more informed about this than me or you), immediately found the relevant statistics.
That's how it works when you're making a case for something.
So now that we've established that a) most of the problem is from either outside the EU - or b) already here, can you please explain how once we've left the EU it will stop the same criminals exploiting EU citizens in the UK?
Just for clarity: if they're getting here and operating illegally now, how / why would it be any different post brexit?. (The clue's in the fact that they are not here legally, so if we can track them down in the future, then logically we could do it now if we put the resources into it. Either that or we can't, but that won't change).

It's irrelevant where most come from. Given the population of China in comparison to the EU and the greater potential pool of innocents to prey upon its hardly surprising there's more.

Population of EU- 500 mil
Population of China- 1.3 Billion.

I'm saying that ending free movement of people will help stop people trafficking, exploitation and modern day slavery.

I could argue that the rules for non EU based illegal trafficking may make it harder for gangs to get their victims into the country, but they still manage it. I dont know if thats the case but it may be. Hypethetically, if they were operating within the same environment as the free movement of people rules , they could find it easier and you'd see the numbers being exploited rise. Obviously, it's an unknown. Consequently, the flip side is that if the EU based traffickers have to operate as the , arguably tougher, non EU rules. You could expect to see a fall in the vulnerable souls being abused in such a despicable way.

Another one that sees their precious EU being blasphemed against and rather than welcome the idea that the commoditification of human beings can be ended along with the potential to help stop people trafficking, exploitation and modern day slavery. You want choose to go down an irrelevant conversational cul de sac, of where in the world, those that face an unimaginable grim existence, come from.

[RingoMcCartney]

The evidence is all there Wrongo, the fact that you don’t want to believe it doesn’t change that fact. Countries that don’t have freedom of movement into the U.K. traffic far more people into the country than those that do. Ergo freedom of movement is not a factor in increasing trafficking.

And to claim I’m relaxed about the practice when you are fixated on something that even by your own twisted logic will address a small percentage of the problem is hypocritical to say the least. I’d love human trafficking to disappear, but in order to do that we need to concentrate on things that will actually make a difference not some Brexiteer fantasy that isn’t backed up by any of the available evidence (much like pretty much every Brexiteer fantasy).

All you've shown is that more illegal migration and trafficking comes from a country with a far bigger population than the EU.

Population of EU- 500 mil
Population of China- 1.3 Billion.

I could argue that the rules for non EU based illegal trafficking may make it harder for gangs to get their victims into the country, but they still manage it. I dont know if thats the case but it may be. Hypethetically, if they were operating within the same environment as the free movement of people rules , they could find it easier and you'd see the numbers exploited rise. Obviously, it's an unknown. Consequently, the flip side is that if the EU based traffickers have to operate as the , arguably tougher, non EU rules you could expect to see a fall in the vulnerable souls being abused in such a despicable way.


You've still, despite nearly 2 years of asking, not provided that much vaunted "evidence" you had that showed that ending free movement of people will not help people trafficking, exploitation and modern day slavery, that trumped my view it will.

[TheFamilyCat]

I love how Ringo is using “End modern day slavery” as a code for “stop foreigners coming in” but in a way that he thinks doesn’t make him sound like a racist.

[martin_p]

I’ve also shown more gone from Albania and Vietnam. Go check those populations. It’s almost as if the population of the country was irrelevant.

[martin_p]

I love how Ringo is using “End modern day slavery” as a code for “stop foreigners coming in” but in a way that he thinks doesn’t make him sound like a racist.

The fact that he only seems to care about trafficking from within the EU and doesn’t seem concerned about Asian slaves makes him look more racist.

[LeuvenClaret]

You are now trying to put words in my mouth.

I said in my opinion "it will help"

What will you change at the boarder for it to be more helpful? What are our border force not doing that you would like implemented to help stop modern day slavery? What is stopping that being done now?

Our border controls around free movement are the strongest of any EU country so I am really interested in your Brexit utopian future.

[nil_desperandum]

It's irrelevant where most come from. Given the population of China in comparison to the EU and the greater potential pool of innocents to prey upon its hardly surprising there's more.

Population of EU- 500 mil
Population of China- 1.3 Billion.

I'm saying that ending free movement of people will help stop people trafficking, exploitation and modern day slavery.

.

There's no logic in your argument.
I don't suppose that this will help, but I'll have one more go.
Let's ignore actual statistics, (real numbers), and just agree that currently there's too much trafficking to the UK from non-EU countries (agree? yes).
And that there's modern day slavery of UK citizens within the UK itself (agree? yes)
Currently we either can't stop it, or put insufficient resources into tackling it (agree? yes)
If we can do it in the future, then we could do it now (agree? yes)
Now when we leave the EU, those who are currently EU citizens will have the same status and rights of entry as those who are currently non -EU citizens? (agree? yes)
So - if non-EU citizens can illegally enter the UK now and operate illegally, what is going to change post- brexit?
Do you have any evidence that suggests anything will change?
How (e.g.) do you stop anyone catching the bus (or simply driving) from Dublin to Belfast? unless we rigorously enforce a hard border, which just about everyone has ruled out, and how do you stop traffickers bringing victims here on "holiday", and then them simply "disappearing"? No one so far has proposed that EU citizens won't be able to enter the UK freely post-brexit, and as Aggi correctly points out above, with less co-operation with our European neighbours over border control, and very many other intelligence / security issues we might actually find that one unintended consequence of brexit is an increase in illegal activity.
[But let me agree with you on one point. If the UK leaving the EU resulted in a reduction of trafficking it would indeed be a good thing, and everyone on this board agrees with this. But you are unable to make a supported case that it will, whilst others have pointed out the flaws in your argument).

[aggi]

You have to bear in mind that Ringo starts from a default position that the EU is bad. He looks at the issue and then looks exclusively at how it is linked to the EU.

For instance that's how he got to the position that the EU is solely to blame for the loss of manufacturing jobs in the UK in the past thirty years. It's irrelevant that countries not in the EU suffered the same job losses, the EU is bad so it must be to blame.

[Devils_Advocate]

There's no logic in your argument.
I don't suppose that this will help, but I'll have one more go.
Let's ignore actual statistics, (real numbers), and just agree that currently there's too much trafficking to the UK from non-EU countries (agree? yes).
And that there's modern day slavery of UK citizens within the UK itself (agree? yes)
Currently we either can't stop it, or put insufficient resources into tackling it (agree? yes)
If we can do it in the future, then we could do it now (agree? yes)
Now when we leave the EU, those who are currently EU citizens will have the same status and rights of entry as those who are currently non -EU citizens? (agree? yes)
So - if non-EU citizens can illegally enter the UK now and operate illegally, what is going to change post- brexit?
Do you have any evidence that suggests anything will change?
How (e.g.) do you stop anyone catching the bus (or simply driving) from Dublin to Belfast? unless we rigorously enforce a hard border, which just about everyone has ruled out, and how do you stop traffickers bringing victims here on "holiday", and then them simply "disappearing"? No one so far has proposed that EU citizens won't be able to enter the UK freely post-brexit, and as Aggi correctly points out above, with less co-operation with our European neighbours over border control, and very many other intelligence / security issues we might actually find that one unintended consequence of brexit is an increase in illegal activity.
[But let me agree with you on one point. If the UK leaving the EU resulted in a reduction of trafficking it would indeed be a good thing, and everyone on this board agrees with this. But you are unable to make a supported case that it will, whilst others have pointed out the flaws in your argument).

I love your ambition but Ringo hasn't managed to answer that many question in the whole of the last 3 years since the referendum

[nil_desperandum]

I love your ambition but Ringo hasn't managed to answer that many question in the whole of the last 3 years since the referendum

True, but for the first 5 questions I've only given him the one "multiple" choice option of "yes", so I've tried to help.

[aggi]

Looks like the trade deal negotiations with the US aren't going that well. Who would have thought that we are short of negotiators?
https://premium.telegraph.co.uk/newslet ... urce=email" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Looks like the trade deal negotiations with the US aren't going that well. Who would have thought that we are short of negotiators?
https://premium.telegraph.co.uk/newslet ... urce=email" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I didn't think we could legally negotiate a trade deal with anyone outside of the EU until we'd actually left?

[aggi]

I didn't think we could legally negotiate a trade deal with anyone outside of the EU until we'd actually left?

We can negotiate, we can't put it into force though.

[Lowbankclaret]

A93C51BA-C0DB-4050-A336-964327471D42.png (1.4 MiB) Viewed 2729 times

I have mentioned before about reading up on geopolitics.

The fact is that as you can see from Germany’s demographics, they have like most European countries got an ageing population. That’d going to increase costs of looking after the old with less people to find it.
That means higher taxes or a recession.
Us pulling out will make matters far worse.

Italy is bankrupt as is Greece.

[elwaclaret]

A93C51BA-C0DB-4050-A336-964327471D42.png

I have mentioned before about reading up on geopolitics.

The fact is that as you can see from Germany’s demographics, they have like most European countries got an ageing population. That’d going to increase costs of looking after the old with less people to find it.
That means higher taxes or a recession.
Us pulling out will make matters far worse.

Italy is bankrupt as is Greece.

As one of the largest contributors, Britain leaving is a major problem for Europe. It is one of the reasons I don’t share the pessimism of a) Leaving b) The renegotiation bringing results.

I don’t believe No Deal is in the slightest likely, Europe cannot afford the hole it creates in their accounts.

[martin_p]

As one of the largest contributors, Britain leaving is a major problem for Europe. It is one of the reasons I don’t share the pessimism of a) Leaving b) The renegotiation bringing results.

I don’t believe No Deal is in the slightest likely, Europe cannot afford the hole it creates in their accounts.

I thought we’d seen the last of ‘it’ll hurt them more than it’ll hurt us’.

[Lowbankclaret]

If we stay in we get dragged into the recession .

At least if we are out we can try to do deals with the rest of the world and limit the damage.

We have the same demographic problem of more old people. Not enough young people to pay taxes to pay for them.

Read Peter Zeihan stuff it makes interesting reading.

At least Trump has said today he will help protect shipping in the gulf.

[Lowbankclaret]

I thought we’d seen the last of ‘it’ll hurt them more than it’ll hurt us’.

It’s gunna hurt either way, recession in or out.

[elwaclaret]

I thought we’d seen the last of ‘it’ll hurt them more than it’ll hurt us’.

Not the point I was making, but I suspect you knew that.

You prefer to see us as the poor man of Europe with begging bowls who should be grateful for whatever the EU allows us, Fair enough. I was merely pointing out it is not in either’s interest to play any further games.

[martin_p]

Not the point I was making, but I suspect you knew that.

You prefer to see us as the poor man of Europe with begging bowls who should be grateful for whatever the EU allows us, Fair enough. I was merely pointing out it is not in either’s interest to play any further games.

The EU aren’t playing games, they’ve been consistent from day one.

[Lowbankclaret]

The EU aren’t playing games, they’ve been consistent from day one.

True but they are trying to ignore the fact a recession is coming, which the US will be immune from.

Choose your dance partner.

One drags you down with it, the other we could just hold our own or even prosper a little.

[martin_p]

True but they are trying to ignore the fact a recession is coming, which the US will be immune from.

Choose your dance partner.

One drags you down with it, the other we could just hold our own or even prosper a little.

Except no one believes that except you. Even some of the most ardent Brexiteers will admit that leaving the EU will cause economic damage (short term in their opinion).

[South West Claret.]

I can't wait to hear the absolute nonsense from the outsiders when the 1st "informed" referendum result vote is to stay in.

[Lowbankclaret]

Except no one believes that except you. Even some of the most ardent Brexiteers will admit that leaving the EU will cause economic damage (short term in their opinion).

You can try to ignore economic fact.

It’s actually nothing to do with Brexit, the demographic facts are coming home to roost.

If you took the time to investigate and read, you might understand.
I suggest you won’t bother.