Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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RingoMcCartney
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:00 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:Yes, but not relevant to your side of the argument. In fact, it completely contradicted the point you were trying to make.

Log off Ringo, you’re having a mare.
First you said it wasn't relevant.

Then you admitted it was relevant.

Now you're saying it is relevant but not relevant!!! :lol:

And I'm the one having a mare!? :lol:

evensteadiereddie
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by evensteadiereddie » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:02 pm

Keep going, this is brilliant.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by evensteadiereddie » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:08 pm

Elizabeth wrote:Ringo, to fill you in .

Evensteadiereddie is miffed following the short ditty I composed about him last week.
His post at 10184 would have been in response to my post one minute earlier. However he did not know you were going to post so it looks like he's laughing at you when he was posting to laugh at me . Never mind Eddie.
Some posters are intent on pushing me off this topic but will find that difficult.

People's Vote campaign anyone?
Keep going, Ringo, this looks like being a classic....and it's not even Friday. :lol:

Elizabeth
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:09 pm

Eddie, to come on this thread you must feel that you have some knowledge on the subject of Brexit.
Why do you think the People's Vote campaign started months before the nation knew what our PM's deal with the EU was?

If it be your will
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:13 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:Doesn’t the Brexit Party leadership work in exactly the same way?
Probably.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:16 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Blair said he expected Gordon Brown to succeed him, and that Brown "would make an excellent Prime Minister". When nominations for the leadership elections opened, Blair was one of those nominating Brown.[6] From the start, most observers considered Brown the overwhelming favourite to succeed Blair; John McDonnell, his only challenger, failed to secure enough nominations in order to get onto the ballot, and conceded defeat.[7] Brown received 313 (88.2%) nominations to McDonnell's 29 (8.2%), making it mathematically impossible for anyone other than Brown to be nominated.
The election process concluded with Brown being declared leader at a special conference on 24 June 2007. On 27 June, Blair resigned as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and was succeeded by Brown.[8]


Nobody wanted to upset Our Glorious Leader.

Brown became prime minister North Korea Style!

Now have you not got to and get angry somewhere?

Trigger off!

Yeah, because they elect their party leaders in North Korea.

Again, though, you demonstrate your uncritical thinking, and blatant bias, in being this selective about which leadership election you're calling undemocratic. Theresa May was appointed Prime Minister without an election of the wider party membership, and so was John Major. Yet for some reason you're silent about those. And i've no doubt you don't even give a **** that no one elected Farage to be the leader of his party.

As always you're just completely full of **** and serve absolutely no purpose to a conversation. Nothing you ever post is a good faith effort to discuss any issue, and you're so blinded by your own political team spirit that you're incapable of anything close to critical thinking. You're an embarrassment.

If it be your will
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:18 pm

aggi wrote:Ringo, you'd better get onto the BBC:

Germany's Ursula von der Leyen has been narrowly elected president of the EU Commission

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49010801" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Now this I'm genuinely unsure of: what power does the president of the Commission have? I know the Commission's powers (addressed a few minutes ago), but can't find anything about the powers of the commision's president. Is it largely ceremonial? A commission spokesperson sort of thing, or is there more to it?

Edit - found it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President ... and_powers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Significant power then, in that they can dismiss other commissioners.

I did spot this though:

Unease had built up around the way the secretive, power play that was involved in these appointments leading to a desire for a more democratic process.[49] At the end of 2009, the Treaty of Lisbon entered into force. It amended the appointment of the Commission President in the Treaty on European Union Article 17.7 to add the wording "taking into account the elections to the European Parliament", so that Article 17.7 now included the wording

Taking into account the elections to the European Parliament and after having held the appropriate consultations, the European Council, acting by a qualified majority, shall propose to the European Parliament a candidate for President of the Commission.


So wait a minute! Yes, the Parliament gets to vote on the new EU Commission's president, but that vote only needs 'taking into account'. So it's a sop, isn't it! They'll ask parliament, yes, but they'll only go with their choice if they actually agree with it!
Last edited by If it be your will on Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Elizabeth
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:19 pm

You're a lightweight eddie

aggi
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:26 pm

If it be your will wrote:Hang on, you haven't answered the question. I'll have a go, and you can correct where I've gone wrong:

WHAT POWER HAVE YOU GOT? Oh, you wouldn't believe! We are the only ones allowed to propose new European laws (bar in some exceptional circumstance), and these laws trounce your silly domestic ones, the ones your democracies passed. We are also the arbiters of whether an EU member has broken the rules of the treaties (you want to bail out British Steel? Do you now?), We also negotiate ever-lasting trade agreements like TTIP and CETA, the ones that mean corporations can sue national governments if they harm their economic interests.

WHERE DID YOU GET IT FROM? We were appointed by heads of state, but we are duty bound in law to represent only the EU, and not individual member states. Our first duty is to uphold the treaties of the EU - those ones like Maastricht and Lisbon that you didn't actually get to vote on.

IN WHOSE INTERESTS DO YOU EXERCISE IT? Corporate. Why the hell else would we have passed CETA??

TO WHOM ARE YOU ACCOUNTABLE?Once appointed, effectively no one. The Parliament can pass a vote of no confidence if they want to, but then we'll just be replaced again, and have the same powers and same obligations as before, so there isn't much point doing that, really. Parliament doesn't get a say on who is appointed, of course.

HOW CAN WE GET RID OF YOU? God knows. And it doesn't really matter whether you can or not, because we'll still act in the interests of corporate lobbyists anyway. And we'll still carry out our duty to uphold the treaties whichever group of humans actually sit on it. And those treaties last forever.

Should I get started on your questions now?
Unlike Ringo I'm more than happy to answer questions. I don't really view Brexit/EU with the same religious devotion as some.

WHAT POWER HAVE YOU GOT? - I would agree that their powers are too wide ranging compared to the parliament. I'd disagree that they are the final arbiters of whether the rules have been broken, I'd say that was the European Court of Justice. They may negotiate trade agreements but they have to be approved by the Council and the Parliament who, inconveniently for the narrative, were elected.

WHERE DID YOU GET IT FROM? So from the elected heads of state (a reasonable proxy for the will of each country). (And further approved by the EU Parliament who were also elected). You seem to be answering a different question.

IN WHOSE INTERESTS DO YOU EXERCISE IT? I'm starting to feel your views may be colouring this a little. Is it all corporate interests? Are we including Nike, Google, Facebook, Microsoft, VW, etc?

TO WHOM ARE YOU ACCOUNTABLE? So they are accountable to the elected parliament is what you're saying. Parliament obviously does get a say. It happened about half an hour ago.

HOW CAN WE GET RID OF YOU? The above seems to cover this too.

JohnMcGreal
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by JohnMcGreal » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:27 pm

Elizabeth wrote:Eddie, to come on this thread you must feel that you have some knowledge on the subject of Brexit.
Why do you think the People's Vote campaign started months before the nation knew what our PM's deal with the EU was?
Most remain voters knew before the result even came in that trying to leave the EU would be a complete **** show.

Every conceivable 'deal' would be worse than full membership. The promises made by Leave could not be delivered. That much was obvious in 2016. There was no need to wait for the inevitable to completely unfold before putting the foundations in place for a second referendum.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:29 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Great news for you Aggi.

No doubt you'll be relaying the news to your new High Priestess that there are sinister plots being hatched in Pendle Witch country requesting funds for the immediate erecting of gallows and ducking stools in order to wheedle out and punish all those who dare blaspheme agsinst the Brussels Deity and worship the false idols of Sovereignty, democracy and self determination.

#Damn the Unholy Trinity.
Still avoiding those questions I see. Putting your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes and going ner-ner-ner does not a convincing argument make.

martin_p
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:30 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:In 2007, Tony Blair resigned as Prime Minister and Labour Leader and Brown was chosen to replace him in an uncontested election. and became prime minister.
Yep, there should have been an election then too. What’s your point?

aggi
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:34 pm

Elizabeth wrote:If there was a public vote on No Deal it would be overwhelmingly rejected. Of that I have no doubts. The position we are in as a nation now upsets the 17 m plus who voted leave and the vast majority of remain voters who accepted the referendum result.
All would consider themselves as democratic.
However over the last couple of years they have been questioned.

I have no respect for the people behind the People's Vote movement. The reason being that the movement was started months before anybody knew what Theresa May's deal was.

I would have thought it only right to wait until that deal was known before starting to campaign for a 2nd referendum. That to me shows that some people never wanted to accept the 2016 result in the first place.

If anybody can tell me that the timing of the People's Vote campaign was right I am only too happy to listen to their reasoning.

I think this is a fair post and deserves a fair response.
I imagine in very much the same way that Farage said that if the result was 52:48 he would fight for a second referendum there were those on the Remain side that felt the same way.

No-one knew what May's deal was but when she announced the red lines it was pretty obvious that she'd backed herself into a corner very early in negotiations and had also taken a stance that was very much against compromise with the Remain side.

I can see why, when it quickly became obvious that their views would be ignored, a second referendum looked like the only option.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:37 pm

If it be your will wrote:Now this I'm genuinely unsure of: what power does the president of the Commission have? I know the Commission's powers (addressed a few minutes ago), but can't find anything about the powers of the commision's president. Is it largely ceremonial? A commission spokesperson sort of thing, or is there more to it?

Edit - found it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President ... and_powers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Significant power then, in that they can dismiss other commissioners.

I did spot this though:

Unease had built up around the way the secretive, power play that was involved in these appointments leading to a desire for a more democratic process.[49] At the end of 2009, the Treaty of Lisbon entered into force. It amended the appointment of the Commission President in the Treaty on European Union Article 17.7 to add the wording "taking into account the elections to the European Parliament", so that Article 17.7 now included the wording

Taking into account the elections to the European Parliament and after having held the appropriate consultations, the European Council, acting by a qualified majority, shall propose to the European Parliament a candidate for President of the Commission.


So wait a minute! Yes, the Parliament gets to vote on the new EU Commission's president, but that vote only needs 'taking into account'. So it's a sop, isn't it! They'll ask parliament, yes, but they'll only go with their choice if they actually agree with it!
No. The Parliament has the absolute power to not approve them.

The taken into account part is in reference to whether the Council's nomination should reflect the party with the most votes in the European Elections.

TheFamilyCat
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by TheFamilyCat » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:37 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:First you said it wasn't relevant.

Then you admitted it was relevant.

Now you're saying it is relevant but not relevant!!! :lol:

And I'm the one having a mare!? :lol:
At first I didn’t think it was, but then you made me realise that it was. And in doing so, contradicted your initial point.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:41 pm

aggi wrote:Unlike Ringo I'm more than happy to answer questions. I don't really view Brexit/EU with the same religious devotion as some.

WHAT POWER HAVE YOU GOT? - I would agree that their powers are too wide ranging compared to the parliament. I'd disagree that they are the final arbiters of whether the rules have been broken, I'd say that was the European Court of Justice. They may negotiate trade agreements but they have to be approved by the Council and the Parliament who, inconveniently for the narrative, were elected.

WHERE DID YOU GET IT FROM? So from the elected heads of state (a reasonable proxy for the will of each country). (And further approved by the EU Parliament who were also elected). You seem to be answering a different question.

IN WHOSE INTERESTS DO YOU EXERCISE IT? I'm starting to feel your views may be colouring this a little. Is it all corporate interests? Are we including Nike, Google, Facebook, Microsoft, VW, etc?

TO WHOM ARE YOU ACCOUNTABLE? So they are accountable to the elected parliament is what you're saying. Parliament obviously does get a say. It happened about half an hour ago.

HOW CAN WE GET RID OF YOU? The above seems to cover this too.
The Council of the European Union (aka 'The Council') are appointed, not elected. The European Council - the heads of state - are a different thing entirely. Also, that vote by the Parliament wasn't binding. It is merely 'taken into account' (see edit above). It's a sop. Do you believe VW, Nike, Google, Facebook, and Microsoft have too much power after the Commission's action, or too little? Or about right? Have they done a good job reigning them in, do you think?

I'm smiling to myself. You think my judgment is being coloured. I'm not actually that much of a Brexiteer. I'm still torn as to whether the whole thing is a good idea. I come on here to try and articulate the Lexit position, as best I can, not because I'm thoroughly committed to it (though much more than I was 2 years ago), but because these arguments should be heard, and absolutely no one else on this messageboard or anywhere in the media is making them.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:44 pm

Thank you John McGreal.

I am taking from your post that the People's Vote campaign was always going to happen. I'm unsure, but am I right that it is your belief that people voted to remain because they knew the EU would never allow us to leave?

I know you will correct me if I have misinterpreted your response but on the assumption I haven't, it did raise a couple of more questions in my mind.

Why did the People's vote campaign start so long after the 2017 General election, why wait until only months before the publication of the PMs deal?

Do you think so many millions of people would have had that much in depth knowledge to know that leaving the EU would be so difficult?

The referendum question was a simple one. Do you want to stay in the EU or leave the EU.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:46 pm

aggi wrote:No. The Parliament has the absolute power to not approve them.

The taken into account part is in reference to whether the Council's nomination should reflect the party with the most votes in the European Elections.
Hang on, are we taking about 'The Commission', or the 'President of the Commission'. If we mean the Commission as a whole, then parliament can vote to get rid of them (as I've said), but they can't choose another team. They'll just be appointed again, by the same method, with the same powers and obligations as before, rendering the whole exercise pointless.

If we're talking about the president, then Parliament's vote only needs to be 'taken into account'. Or is this wiki page wrong? (it might well be, I don't know)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:51 pm

If it be your will wrote:The Council of the European Union (aka 'The Council') are appointed, not elected. The European Council - the heads of state - are a different thing entirely. Also, that vote by the Parliament wasn't binding. It is merely 'taken into account' (see edit above). It's a sop. Do you believe VW, Nike, Google, Facebook, and Microsoft have too much power after the Commission's action, or too little? Or about right? Have they done a good job reigning them in, do you think?

I'm smiling to myself. You think my judgment is being coloured. I'm not actually that much of a Brexiteer. I'm still torn as to whether the whole thing is a good idea. I come on here to try and articulate the Lexit position, as best I can, not because I'm thoroughly committed to it (though much more than I was 2 years ago), but because these arguments should be heard, and absolutely no one else on this messageboard or anywhere in the media is making them.
Yep, yep, yep. My mistake, it is the European Council that proposes them. But it doesn't alter the fact that the actual people sitting on it were not elected, nor does it alter the fact that the Commission represents the EU, not member states. Nor that their duty is to uphold the treaties, which we didn't get to vote on.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:54 pm

If it be your will wrote:Hang on, are we taking about 'The Commission', or the 'President of the Commission'. If we mean the Commission as a whole, then parliament can vote to get rid of them (as I've said), but they can't choose another team. They'll just be appointed again, by the same method, with the same powers and obligations as before, rendering the whole exercise pointless.

If we're talking about the president, then Parliament's vote only needs to be 'taken into account'. Or is this wiki page wrong? (it might well be, I don't know)
It's correct, but you're not looking at the full thing.

Article 17 of the Treaty on European Union, as amended by the Treaty of Lisbon, lays out the procedure for appointing the President and his team. The European Council votes by qualified majority for a nominee for the post of President, taking account of the latest European elections. This proposal is then put before Parliament which must approve or veto the appointment.

This means that the European Council should take into account the results of the European elections when picking their candidate, they shouldn't pick someone from a tiny party for instance.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:55 pm

If it be your will wrote:Yep, yep, yep. My mistake, it is the European Council that proposes them. But it doesn't alter the fact that the actual people sitting on it were not elected, nor does it alter the fact that the Commission represents the EU, not member states. Nor that their duty is to uphold the treaties, which we didn't get to vote on.
Why should we need to vote on it? Our elected representatives ratified it, that’s their job.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:56 pm

They shouldn't, but they could! I really have to go now, but I'm still of the view that it would be a real stretch to declare "The EU is a democratic institution".

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by JohnMcGreal » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:59 pm

Elizabeth wrote:Thank you John McGreal.

I am taking from your post that the People's Vote campaign was always going to happen. I'm unsure, but am I right that it is your belief that people voted to remain because they knew the EU would never allow us to leave?


No, not at all. We'll always be free to leave the EU whenever we want. I think people voted to remain because they knew full EU membership would always be a superior deal to any other arrangement, and because they refused to be taken in by the outlandish claims made by the leave campaigns.
Elizabeth wrote:Why did the People's vote campaign start so long after the 2017 General election, why wait until only months before the publication of the PMs deal?


As aggi already mentioned, by that stage it was becoming clear that the negotiations were not going remotely well, and that our PM had backed herself into a corner with no escape. That seemed like a perfectly reasonable time to put the wheels in motion for another public vote.
Elizabeth wrote:Do you think so many millions of people would have had that much in depth knowledge to know that leaving the EU would be so difficult?


Yes. Millions of people saw it coming a mile off. It's just a shame a few million more didn't.
Elizabeth wrote:The referendum question was a simple one. Do you want to stay in the EU or leave the EU.
It was simple. Too simple. Which is partly why we're in such a mess. Leave meant whatever each individual voter wanted it to mean.
This user liked this post: longsidepies

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:05 pm

martin_p wrote:Why should we need to vote on it? Our elected representatives ratified it, that’s their job.
Because most (all?) leaders were voted in by a minority. And they should all have a sunset clause, to be re-ratified ever 20 years, say, so as not to tie the hands of the next generation. It won't be all that long before no living person voted for Maastricht. Yet it will still stand.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:07 pm

If it be your will wrote:Yep, yep, yep. My mistake, it is the European Council that proposes them. But it doesn't alter the fact that the actual people sitting on it were not elected, nor does it alter the fact that the Commission represents the EU, not member states. Nor that their duty is to uphold the treaties, which we didn't get to vote on.
They weren't but they were selected and approved by two different sets of elected representatives. How do you think the process for electing them should have worked? Do you think that your average voter is going to be researching whether Maroš Šefčovič is the best candidate to be for Interinstitutional Relations and Administration?

The Council of the European Union represents the individual member states. They're there to actually implement things, sign off on trade deals, etc.

They also aren't elected but people seem less excited about that.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:10 pm

Thank you Aggi.

The thing that sticks out for me is that the campaign ignored Parliamentary democracy.
It started before Parliament had the chance to vote on the deal. We know what that vote became but in my opinion the timing was all wrong.
The soundbites were elitist, things like leave voters didn't know what they were voting for.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by evensteadiereddie » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:22 pm

Elizabeth wrote:Eddie, to come on this thread you must feel that you have some knowledge on the subject of Brexit.
Why do you think the People's Vote campaign started months before the nation knew what our PM's deal with the EU was?

No, Ringo, I come on here purely to marvel at your stupidity. You're clearly not right in the head. You're harmless enough, even intriguing at times but so completely ****** up.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:23 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:Keep going, Ringo, this looks like being a classic....and it's not even Friday. :lol:
Keep going Edward , it becomes more obvious with every post you and "her" do!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:24 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:No, Ringo, I come on here purely to marvel at your stupidity. You're clearly not right in the head. You're harmless enough, even intriguing at times but so completely ****** up.
Edward and "Elizabeth"

Me and my shadow.......

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:26 pm

Move aside Eddie, a grown up conversation is taking place.
Now that you have provided evidence as to why you come on this thread I will leave others to decide how you should be responded to.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:26 pm

martin_p wrote:Yep, there should have been an election then too. What’s your point?
My point was that at least 2 PMs have been put into power with an election . So stop bleating when it's not your party that does it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:27 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:
As always you're just completely full of **** and serve absolutely no purpose to a conversation. Nothing you ever post is a good faith effort to discuss any issue, and you're so blinded by your own political team spirit that you're incapable of anything close to critical thinking. You're an embarrassment.

Mr Kettle ,

Have you met Mr Pot?

You both appear to be similar shades of black.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:30 pm

aggi wrote:Unlike Ringo I'm more than happy to answer questions. I don't really view Brexit/EU with the same religious devotion as some.

Agreed.

You're an Euvangelical zealot!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:31 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Mr Kettle ,

Have you met Mr Pot?

You both appear to be similar shades of black.
That would explain why you hate people like me.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:44 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:My point was that at least 2 PMs have been put into power with an election . So stop bleating when it's not your party that does it.
That shows you misunderstood my initial point (that being the irony of you ‘bleating’ about not getting a vote in the election of Commission President while the U.K. is on the process of appointing a PM that over 99% of the country haven’t voted for).

Besides, this isn’t a party political issue. While technically we all vote for MPs in our own constituency rather than the PM there’s absolutely no doubt the prospective PM influences which party a person votes for. If the PM is to change then the whole country should get a say via a general election.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:55 pm

aggi wrote:I suspect it's in response to the Brexit position where leaving with No Deal has gone from being a remote possibility (a deal being "one of the easiest in human history" and "there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market." etc.) to a good idea.

I can't believe that I'm having to point out to you that an opposing side may not be entirely innocent in this.
Remain have spent the last few years deciding the vote result was a given, in their favour of course, to it was wrong, the winners didn't understand what they were voting for, to they were stupid and now it wasn't what they voted for.

I'm well aware Leave are having to change how we leave, but it's partly in response to Remainers throwing up road blocks and the EU doing the same.

No Deal always had to be on the table, whether people liked the idea or not and it still is because we can't just keep kicking the departure date down the road every few months.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by evensteadiereddie » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:58 pm

Elizabeth wrote:Move aside Eddie, a grown up conversation is taking place.
Now that you have provided evidence as to why you come on this thread I will leave others to decide how you should be responded to.


I couldn't give a flying wotsit how others respond to me and, indeed, to your drivel, Ringo.
You're a headcase - your latest tactical smokescreen regarding your other account on here is an interesting if entirely predictable exercise.
Futile, of course, but today's nonsense is an unexpected bonus.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:04 pm

Von der Leyen elected EU Commission head after MEPs vote
Von der Leyen elected EU Commission head after MEPs vote
Von der Leyen elected EU Commission head after MEPs vote


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49010801" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:25 pm

aggi wrote:They weren't but they were selected and approved by two different sets of elected representatives. How do you think the process for electing them should have worked? Do you think that your average voter is going to be researching whether Maroš Šefčovič is the best candidate to be for Interinstitutional Relations and Administration?

The Council of the European Union represents the individual member states. They're there to actually implement things, sign off on trade deals, etc.

They also aren't elected but people seem less excited about that.
But you could say that about UK democracy. Or any democracy. That voters don't really know what they're doing. Yet we wouldn't allow a UK system where the cabinet was composed of unelected officials, appointed by the PM, and were the only people that could decide what MPs voted on. And even when MPs pass these laws, another set of unelected officials (appointed by elected councillors, say) could veto it anyway. And all the proposed laws have to comply with treaties most of the current EU population didn't even vote for. All on account that voters don't really know what they're doing.

What you are doing is pointing out a well known flaw of democracy - that voters can never be truly fit to vote. That's fine. But in order to avoid the uninformed public voting for something stupid, the EU has put an awful lot of barriers in the way of electoral will. For good or ill, there really is a profound democratic deficit in the EU. It is undeniably very difficult for voters, via the European Parliament, to get their voice represented in what actually happens to them. The thing is, I can sort of understand why the EU is set up like it is. It wouldn't work if it was democratic. But as a result it requires an exceptionally loose definition of 'democracy' to faithfully declare: The EU is a democratic institution.

It's clear you, like me, have made a concerted attempt to unpick how the EU functions. Honestly speaking, would you really agree with the statement The EU is a democratic institution, or words to that effect?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:26 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Von der Leyen elected EU Commission head after MEPs vote
Von der Leyen elected EU Commission head after MEPs vote
Von der Leyen elected EU Commission head after MEPs vote


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49010801" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But they could have ignored this election, had they wanted to.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:37 pm

On the subject of EU democracy, I would propose, for it do be declared 'democratic', as a minimum:

Legislative proposal powers in most cases lies with the Parliament.
If Parliament passes a law, the consent of either the Commission or The Council is required, but not both.
That all treaties have a sunset clause, so as not to tie the hands of future generations.
That all treaties are subject to a referendum in every member state.

It's not too much to ask of a 'democracy', really. But none of these will ever happen, because the EU would quickly collapse if it did.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:53 pm

If it be your will wrote:But they could have ignored this election, had they wanted to.
No. I'm wrong again, sorry about that IT. I've read all article 17 now. Once the candidate is put to them by the council, it looks like they have to accept if parliament votes for them. Though parliament has no say in who is put to them in the first place, they are allowed to say 'no' by the looks of it.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... A12008M017" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(Still frightening how so few people, all unelected, have been given this much power though.)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:55 pm

If it be your will wrote:On the subject of EU democracy, I would propose, for it do be declared 'democratic', as a minimum:

Legislative proposal powers in most cases lies with the Parliament.
If Parliament passes a law, the consent of either the Commission or The Council is required, but not both.
That all treaties have a sunset clause, so as not to tie the hands of future generations.
That all treaties are subject to a referendum in every member state.

It's not too much to ask of a 'democracy', really. But none of these will ever happen, because the EU would quickly collapse if it did.
It’s not the EU that decided the U.K. shouldn’t have referendums on treaties, it’s the U.K. government. It’s up to each member government how that ratify treaties, a number of countries do use referendums, we don’t.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:11 pm

"Unelected" & "undemocratic"?
Let's look at the basics:
EU Parliament: directly elected by EU citizens.

European Council: the EU28 leaders, elected by their home nation’s democratic process.

Council of the EU -( EU28 government ministers), elected by their home nation’s democratic process.

European Commission - politically independent executive arm; leaders nominated by the democratically elected European Council & elected by the EU Parliament, (who in turn have been elected by us)

It appears to me to be at least as democratic as our own "democracy" and most other organisations / countries
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:16 pm

martin_p wrote:It’s not the EU that decided the U.K. shouldn’t have referendums on treaties, it’s the U.K. government. It’s up to each member government how that ratify treaties, a number of countries do use referendums, we don’t.
That is true. I'll gladly concede that one. It is Major's fault we didn't get a say on Maastricht, and Blair's fault we had no say on Lisbon. Yet I, as a person, am still bound by them, and probably will be till I die. The Commission and ECJ are bound by them too.

I was in the majority that didn't vote for Major, and in the majority that didn't vote for Blair. I was in the majority that didn't vote for May, yet May gets to choose representation on the Commission, and also May chooses who represents the UK on The Council of the EU. My MEP does not get to choose the laws they vote on, nor can MEPs alter the treaties.

Wherever the fault lies, it doesn't obviously feel like I had my democratic say in this. Do you feel you have, in all honesty?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:28 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:"Unelected" & "undemocratic"?
Let's look at the basics:
EU Parliament: directly elected by EU citizens.

European Council: the EU28 leaders, elected by their home nation’s democratic process.

Council of the EU -( EU28 government ministers), elected by their home nation’s democratic process.

European Commission - politically independent executive arm; leaders nominated by the democratically elected European Council & elected by the EU Parliament, (who in turn have been elected by us)

It appears to me to be at least as democratic as our own "democracy" and most other organisations / countries
But that isn't quite right.

European Council - unelected leader of the Conservative Party, which itself was elected by an unrepresentative FPTP system (the next one will be elected by 180,000 Tory members, something you have previously been unhappy about, and aren't you opposed to FPTP as well?)

Council of the EU - Unelected officials appointed by a government that received a minority of the vote

Commision - Appointed by the European Council, and approved (not elected - big difference) by EU Parliament.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:41 pm

If it be your will wrote:But that isn't quite right.

European Council - unelected leader of the Conservative Party, which itself was elected by an unrepresentative FPTP system (the next one will be elected by 180,000 Tory members, something you have previously been unhappy about, and aren't you opposed to FPTP as well?)

Council of the EU - Unelected officials appointed by a government that received a minority of the vote

Commision - Appointed by the European Council, and approved (not elected) by EU Parliament.
But it seems to me that those are flaws in our democracy - rather than that of the EU. Our FPTP is seriously flawed - as you say, and we don't get any say about who becomes PM, unless we happen to be in that tiny percentage who are party members, and we don't get to say who is in the cabinet, or who is appointed to a wide variety of senior roles in government or the civil service.
And before we even start to criticise the EU for being undemocratic let's not forget that we still have the anachronistic unelected House of Lords.
(Oh, and as Ringo will be pleased for me to point out, we don't get a say in who's the Speaker - potentially a pivotal figures in the months ahead. Ditto - the Queen who might also be asked to make the ultimate decision).

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:48 pm

If it be your will wrote:That is true. I'll gladly concede that one. It is Major's fault we didn't get a say on Maastricht, and Blair's fault we had no say on Lisbon. Yet I, as a person, am still bound by them, and probably will be till I die. The Commission and ECJ are bound by them too.

I was in the majority that didn't vote for Major, and in the majority that didn't vote for Blair. I was in the majority that didn't vote for May, yet May gets to choose representation on the Commission, and also May chooses who represents the UK on The Council of the EU. My MEP does not get to choose the laws they vote on, nor can MEPs alter the treaties.

Wherever the fault lies, it doesn't obviously feel like I had my democratic say in this. Do you feel you have, in all honesty?
A lot of these complaints appear to be about UK democracy though. Not the EU's fault.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:50 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Agreed.

You're an Euvangelical zealot!
I see Ringo is still struggling with the adult conversation. It's weird he's so anti-EU whilst knowing so little about it.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:54 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:But it seems to me that those are flaws in our democracy - rather than that of the EU. Our FPTP is seriously flawed - as you say, and we don't get any say about who becomes PM, unless we happen to be in that tiny percentage who are party members, and we don't get to say who is in the cabinet, or who is appointed to a wide variety of senior roles in government or the civil service.
And before we even start to criticise the EU for being undemocratic let's not forget that we still have the anachronistic unelected House of Lords.
(Oh, and as Ringo will be pleased for me to point out, we don't get a say in who's the Speaker - potentially a pivotal figures in the months ahead. Ditto - the Queen who might also be asked to make the ultimate decision).
I know, but the EU is an extension, and therefore an enhancement, of our own democratic flaws. But at least in the UK has the Parliamentary Act to over-rule the Lords. At least it has legislative proposal powers. And at least the members of the UK cabinet were directly elected as MPs first.

I appreciate labels like 'democratic' and 'undemocratic' are loose terms open to interpretation, but however far the UK is from a 'pure' democracy, there's no doubt the EU is substantially further away than that.

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