Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Remoaners - " As soon as the referendum result was announced , the Leave lot scarpered "
July 2019 - They're running the Government now.
July 2019 - They're running the Government now.
This user liked this post: AndyClaret
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
It really is a shame that people like you would happily leave the EU even if it damages our economy.RingoMcCartney wrote:No upset on my part Andrew. The upset seems to be more on the Remoaners side!
I was just pointing out that that the vast majority of MPs voted to trigger Article 50 enshrining a "No deal" brexit into law.
Brexiteer - " 2/3rds of Constituencies voted to Leave. They should do what their Constituents tell them"
Remoaner - " they aren't delegates. They are representatives who act according to what they believe is best for their Constituents, using their judgement and Intellectual superiority"
Remoaner - " There was no mention of No Deal before the referendum. Where has it come from!!!!!?"
Brexiteer " 498 out of 650 MPs used their judgement and intellectual superiority to trigger Article 50".........
It's now come to the point of pure selfishness.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
I understand the need for concessions etc, but crying that our government won't sign away the ability to make their own decisions on workers rights is just stupid.keith1879 wrote:Three years on and people still can't understand that in a negotiation both sides have aims, ambitions and may have to make concessions. We can set out red lines and that's all right ....but if the EU states what it expects in the future then they are being unreasonable. the awful thing is that our government aren't just ignorant pinheads on a forum ....they are deciding our future.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
It's really is a shame that people like you would be shamelessly prepared to tear up centuries of British democracy, that generations have given their lives to protect. Simply because of you evangelical belief that there is no life outside the failed experiment that is the EU.Spijed wrote:It really is a shame that people like you would happily leave the EU even if it damages our economy.
It's now come to the point of pure selfishness.
It's no longer about Leave or Remain.
It's not about Left or Right anymore.
It's about right and wrong.
You either believe in democracy or you don’t.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
It's difficult to tell what you mean when you obviously have a fault on your keyboard. But if you're trying to say that the EU don't like us, won't trade with us, and are going to be nasty to us just for the sake of it, then I agree.Imploding Turtle wrote:
We. *******. Warned. You.
We warned you that there is no way that the EU would allow us to leave and then give us better trading terms than other EU members get. It makes no ******* sense. It was painfully ******* obvious to Remainers, but you idiots just denied it with this fantasy that the EU couldn't live without us ans so they will undercut their entire organisation by giving a leaving member a better trade deal than their own current members enjoy.
You were always living in a fantasy land, and now you're beginning to see that we were right the whole time.
And no, it's not blackmail. It's a negotiating position.
Where we differ is that you think that's a good reason to kowtow to them. I don't.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Well, the EU's opening bargaining position and the May deal are pretty much the same. So I'm not sure where the "both sides must make concessions" comes in.keith1879 wrote:Three years on and people still can't understand that in a negotiation both sides have aims, ambitions and may have to make concessions. We can set out red lines and that's all right ....but if the EU states what it expects in the future then they are being unreasonable. the awful thing is that our government aren't just ignorant pinheads on a forum ....they are deciding our future.
And the EU isn't necessarily being unreasonable just on the principle of setting out its terms. When we see what the terms are, that's when they appear to be unreasonable. But I suppose from their point of view, they aren't unreasonable - the EU leaders are bosses of a 27-country political union, and if they for a moment hint that it could go back to a trading organisation without the union bit, that the peoples of Europe would vote for it. Which would be a bad thing, because to the EU bosses, it is far better that the EU bosses should keep all their power and privilege than that the 300m people in the EU should have their democratic say.
If the EU is such a good thing, why are they afraid that people would want to leave? If they offer free trade to the UK, we aren't getting a better deal than the EU countries - we're getting the same deal, but without the political guff that is the reason why we voted out.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
I believe in the democracy that we actually have, not the simplistic one you seem to think we have.RingoMcCartney wrote:It's really is a shame that people like you would be shamelessly prepared to tear up centuries of British democracy, that generations have given their lives to protect. Simply because of you evangelical belief that there is no life outside the failed experiment that is the EU.
It's no longer about Leave or Remain.
It's not about Left or Right anymore.
It's about right and wrong.
You either believe in democracy or you don’t.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
You do know that the EU bosses are ultimately the democratically elected heads of the 28 countries?dsr wrote:Which would be a bad thing, because to the EU bosses, it is far better that the EU bosses should keep all their power and privilege than that the 300m people in the EU should have their democratic say.
As much as people like to pretend, it isn't some entity entirely divorced from the constituent countries.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
You sure? Are you saying that Donald Tusk and Jean-Claude Juncker didn't actually have any power, or are saying that they did have power but they could be sacked at a moment's notice? I didn't think either was the case.aggi wrote:You do know that the EU bosses are ultimately the democratically elected heads of the 28 countries?
As much as people like to pretend, it isn't some entity entirely divorced from the constituent countries.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
I'm saying they were selected by the 28 heads of state. It strikes me as unlikely that they would keep choosing people who didn't go in the direction they wanted.dsr wrote:You sure? Are you saying that Donald Tusk and Jean-Claude Juncker didn't actually have any power, or are saying that they did have power but they could be sacked at a moment's notice? I didn't think either was the case.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
So the 28 heads of state act the part of the electorate, not the bosses, then.aggi wrote:I'm saying they were selected by the 28 heads of state. It strikes me as unlikely that they would keep choosing people who didn't go in the direction they wanted.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
You don't believe in democracy at all.martin_p wrote:I believe in the democracy that we actually have, not the simplistic one you seem to think we have.
You do not believe that the 2016 Peoples Vote should be implemented.
It's as simple as that.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
You could say that (although 28 is obviously a very small electorate, probably small enough to make the analogy meaningless).dsr wrote:So the 28 heads of state act the part of the electorate, not the bosses, then.
Do you really think the heads of state keep selecting people who then go out and do the opposite of what they promised (and the European parliament happily waves that through without censure and those heads of state don't block anything)?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Some people are just really dense. I don't know why i even bother trying to help them understand. We told them three years ago that the EU will have a far superior negotiating position than we do, and these dense ***** denied that to be true. Now that we're being proven right by the fact that the EU is pressing their massive advantage they're trying to re-frame a far superior negotiating position as "blackmail".keith1879 wrote:Three years on and people still can't understand that in a negotiation both sides have aims, ambitions and may have to make concessions. We can set out red lines and that's all right ....but if the EU states what it expects in the future then they are being unreasonable. the awful thing is that our government aren't just ignorant pinheads on a forum ....they are deciding our future.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
No surprise that you find the dumbest possible interpretation of what i said.dsr wrote:It's difficult to tell what you mean when you obviously have a fault on your keyboard. But if you're trying to say that the EU don't like us, won't trade with us, and are going to be nasty to us just for the sake of it, then I agree.
Where we differ is that you think that's a good reason to kowtow to them. I don't.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Weird how the EU are allowed to use their massive advantage in negotiations because they're the EU, yet if we have No Deal on the table, because it could give us an advantage in negotiations people whine about it....
Some people are just dumb clearly.
Some people are just dumb clearly.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
It gives us an advantage in exactly the same way as I have the advantage in wage negotiations with my boss if I threaten to shoot myself in the head if I don’t get what I want.GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Weird how the EU are allowed to use their massive advantage in negotiations because they're the EU, yet if we have No Deal on the table, because it could give us an advantage in negotiations people whine about it....
Some people are just dumb clearly.
Last edited by martin_p on Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
These 2 users liked this post: nil_desperandum Imploding Turtle
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
I believe the democratic process should take its course and lead us wherever it leads us. Of course I believe that the best thing for the future of our country would be for that process to conclude that we’re better off staying in the EU, but we have to reach that conclusion by democratic means whether that be another referendum or a general election.RingoMcCartney wrote:You don't believe in democracy at all.
You do not believe that the 2016 Peoples Vote should be implemented.
It's as simple as that.
Nothing that has happened in the process so far is by any measure undemocratic. We had an advisory referendum and based on the result of that referendum parliament voted to trigger article 50 (not commit us to no deal as you seem to think). When the self imposed deadline was approaching and there was no agreement on a deal that self same parliament the decided to instruct the PM to seek an extension which was granted. As we approach October 31st it will be again down to parliament to decide on what direction we take.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
I'm sure the Brexiters on here won't mind the US weighing in on Brexit like this. After all, they've been perfectly fine with Trump sticking his oar in. I'm sure they'll welcome the advice offered by our special partners.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... cians-warn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... cians-warn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Well that rules out a quick trade deal with the US if we leave with no deal then! Those pesky international treaties!JohnMcGreal wrote:I'm sure the Brexiters on here won't mind the US weighing in on Brexit like this. After all, they've been perfectly fine with Trump sticking his oar in. I'm sure they'll welcome the advice offered by our special partners.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... cians-warn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
It's all going very well. Thank God for er, democracy.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
This is pretty old "news" to be honest, but interesting that it's back in the news again now Johnson is in charge. I seem to recall posting about this on this thread about a million pages ago!JohnMcGreal wrote:I'm sure the Brexiters on here won't mind the US weighing in on Brexit like this. After all, they've been perfectly fine with Trump sticking his oar in. I'm sure they'll welcome the advice offered by our special partners.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... cians-warn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Edit:
Nancy Pelosi was very clear about this in talks held with May and Corbyn in April, but there were lots of references to this in the Irish times, the FT and several American papers going right back to last year.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/88 ... ker-warns/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
RingoMcCartney wrote:Remoaners - " As soon as the referendum result was announced , the Leave lot scarpered "
July 2019 - They're running the Government now.
Aye, the brave new world of the masses taking back control - with yet another Old Etonian at the helm.
You're not a gullible twerp at all, are you ?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Not really, it's all down to the Irish backstop, as it clearly states in the article.martin_p wrote:Well that rules out a quick trade deal with the US if we leave with no deal then! Those pesky international treaties!
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
So you're happy for the UK to tie a hand behind their back by removing the potential for no deal?martin_p wrote:It gives us an advantage in exactly the same way as I have the advantage in wage negotiations with my boss if I threaten to shoot myself in the head if I don’t get what I want.
Impressive.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Well that rules out a quick trade deal with the US if we leave with no deal then! Those pesky international treaties!
The subheadline isGodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Not really, it's all down to the Irish backstop, as it clearly states in the article.
Johnson-Trump plan could fall foul of Congress if Good Friday agreement is threatened
The Good Friday agreement is an international treaty
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
If we stopped using threats (albeit a threat that actually does more harm to us than the EU) as our only negotiating tactic and started acting like grown ups I think we'd have a lot better chance of striking a deal.GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:So you're happy for the UK to tie a hand behind their back by removing the potential for no deal?
Impressive.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
The threat of no deal is not a negotiational advantage for us if the EU calls our bluff, as it’ll impact us harder, and they’ll have the greater resources to be able to cope.GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:So you're happy for the UK to tie a hand behind their back by removing the potential for no deal?
Impressive.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Sidney is infamous for his negotiating tactic of “give me what I want or I’ll soil myself”.martin_p wrote:If we stopped using threats (albeit a threat that actually does more harm to us than the EU) as our only negotiating tactic and started acting like grown ups I think we'd have a lot better chance of striking a deal.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
The EU will never let a no-deal Brexit happen because it would result in a very hard border in Ireland overnight.
They will eventually offer a time limit on the backstop which will scrape through parliament.
They will eventually offer a time limit on the backstop which will scrape through parliament.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Can you explain, in detail, how slightly damaging other countries' economies but absolutely screwing ours over would give us the advantage in negotiations?GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Weird how the EU are allowed to use their massive advantage in negotiations because they're the EU, yet if we have No Deal on the table, because it could give us an advantage in negotiations people whine about it....
Some people are just dumb clearly.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
So you're fine with the EU telling us if we don't agree to their future workers rights then we can't have a deal?martin_p wrote:If we stopped using threats (albeit a threat that actually does more harm to us than the EU) as our only negotiating tactic and started acting like grown ups I think we'd have a lot better chance of striking a deal.
One side can threaten, the other can't..
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
That's handy to know.Bordeauxclaret wrote:Sidney is infamous for his negotiating tactic of “give me what I want or I’ll soil myself”.
More like I'd rather the UK had all available options up to and including a no deal.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
That's not what we're saying. What we're saying is that negotiating from a position of "Give us what we want or there is no deal" is a stronger position than "give us what you want because we'll sign anything".aggi wrote:Can you explain, in detail, how slightly damaging other countries' economies but absolutely screwing ours over would give us the advantage in negotiations?
And the damage won't be that bad. The way people go on, you would think that leaving the EU would do almost as much damage as just voting to leave did - you know the 800,000 job losses and so on. Are the forecasts now as bad as the forecasts were then? (Double meaning intended.)
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
It's now Remainers fault that the pound has dropped
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-st ... -1-6190663" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I know that politicians have a long, long history of not accepting responsibility, but what's new is that this will likely make him more popular, not less.
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-st ... -1-6190663" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I know that politicians have a long, long history of not accepting responsibility, but what's new is that this will likely make him more popular, not less.
Last edited by Imploding Turtle on Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Just as soon as you can explain why we should allow the EU to threaten us with no deal if we don't accept decisions they make and want us to include in our laws etc even if we are out of the EU...aggi wrote:Can you explain, in detail, how slightly damaging other countries' economies but absolutely screwing ours over would give us the advantage in negotiations?
That's what is going on and you're all saying I'm the chimp for not seeing why we should bend over and get bummed by the EU.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Just as soon as you can explain why we should allow the EU to threaten us with no deal if we don't accept decisions they make and want us to include in our laws etc even if we are out of the EU...
That's what is going on and you're all saying I'm the chimp for not seeing why we should bend over and get bummed by the EU.
Why would the EU give us the same trading terms as its members, a free trade deal, while allowing us to also undercut their members by having more relaxed laws that affect the competitiveness of our country versus their member states? This is what we're trying to explain to you.
There is absolutely no ******* way the EU will ever give us a free trade deal that allows us to attract businesses away from the EU and into our country because we can provide, for example, cheaper labour because our laws are more favourable to them than the laws in the EU.
If we want a free trade deal with the EU then we're going to have to have the same relevant laws as the EU. There's no blackmail here. It's just ******* obvious. And anyone who thinks that the EU *should* give us more favourable free trade terms than their own member states is a ******* idiot.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
So are you saying that because the EU doesn't have a minimum wage, we will have to abolish ours as well?Imploding Turtle wrote:There is absolutely no way the EU will ever give us a free trade deal that allows us to attract businesses away from the EU and into our country because we can provide, for example, cheaper labour because our laws are more favourable to them than the laws in the EU.
If we want a free trade deal with the EU then we're going to have to have the same relevant laws as the EU. There's no blackmail here. It's just obvious. And anyone who thinks that the EU *should* give us more favourable free trade terms than their own member states is a idiot.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
As soon as you point out where they've threatened that.GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Just as soon as you can explain why we should allow the EU to threaten us with no deal if we don't accept decisions they make and want us to include in our laws etc even if we are out of the EU...
That's what is going on and you're all saying I'm the chimp for not seeing why we should bend over and get bummed by the EU.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
You're putting words into my mouth Marty. Where have I said 498 MPs committed us to no deal. I pointed out that 498 MPs voted to trigger Article 50 , in March 2017, which meant that the UK would leave the EU on March 29th 2019. WITH OR WITHOUT A WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT (No deal)martin_p wrote:I believe the democratic process should take its course and lead us wherever it leads us. Of course I believe that the best thing for the future of our country would be for that process to conclude that we’re better off staying in the EU, but we have to reach that conclusion by democratic means whether that be another referendum or a general election.
Nothing that has happened in the process so far is by any measure undemocratic. We had an advisory referendum and based on the result of that referendum parliament voted to trigger article 50 (not commit us to no deal as you seem to think). When the self imposed deadline was approaching and there was no agreement on a deal that self same parliament the decided to instruct the PM to seek an extension which was granted. As we approach October 31st it will be again down to parliament to decide on what direction we take.
It was in response to half a dozen whining remoaners claiming No Deal had come from now where and implying it had been conjured up by Boris/ Mogg and the ERG, out of thin air.
The 1975 referendum was not legally binding - it was implemented
The 2016 referendum was not legally binding- it has to be implemented.
Regardless of what ceaseless Remoaner sore losers believe.
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Do you reach for stupid, or does it just fall on you all the time? That is obviously not what i'm saying, so why are you even asking that dumb question?dsr wrote:So are you saying that because the EU doesn't have a minimum wage, we will have to abolish ours as well?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 25596.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;martin_p wrote:As soon as you point out where they've threatened that.
Knock yourself out.
Specifically the part where we'd have to agree to non regression rules etc if we want a deal.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Well if we are required to have the same relevant laws and if we get no say on new ones it could well happen.Imploding Turtle wrote:Do you reach for stupid, or does it just fall on you all the time? That is obviously not what i'm saying, so why are you even asking that dumb question?
That's the point he was making, not really a dumb question.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Just as soon as you can explain why we should allow the EU to threaten us with no deal if we don't accept decisions they make and want us to include in our laws etc even if we are out of the EU...
That's what is going on and you're all saying I'm the chimp for not seeing why we should bend over and get bummed by the EU.
We've come a long, long way since the days of 'they need us more than we need them' and 'they'll be bending over backwards to do a deal with us because of Audi and prosecco.
Now it's all 'oh, the EU are being big mean bullies and are trying to bum us, why can't you see what's going on?'
Absolutely tragic.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Going route 1 with the personal stuff!evensteadiereddie wrote:Aye, the brave new world of the masses taking back control - with yet another Old Etonian at the helm.
You're not a gullible twerp at all, are you ?
And twerp? Could well be Edward. But a twerp who was on the winning side of the 2016 Peoples Vote, and a twerp that understands how democracy works!
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
I definitely didn't say they were bullies, but I'm not part of the group who want us to accept all the EU terms including by giving away some of our rights even after we've left.JohnMcGreal wrote:
We've come a long, long way since the days of 'they need us more than we need them' and 'they'll be bending over backwards to do a deal with us because of Audi and prosecco.
Now it's all 'oh, the EU are being big mean bullies and are trying to bum us, why can't you see what's going on?'
Absolutely tragic.
Nothing tragic from me.
Last edited by GodIsADeeJay81 on Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
The only one that appears to be threatening no deal in that article is Boris Johnson.GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 25596.html
Knock yourself out.
Specifically the part where we'd have to agree to non regression rules etc if we want a deal.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
No asterisks this time. Well done.Imploding Turtle wrote:Do you reach for stupid, or does it just fall on you all the time? That is obviously not what i'm saying, so why are you even asking that dumb question?
Obviously it's clear to you what you meant. But only to you. The rest of us can't begin to fathom what is happening in that mind of yours, or what you mean when you say the apparent obvious.
I thought that when you talked about laws that enable us to provide cheaper labour and how we must have the same relevant laws as the EU, that you were talking the price of labour and laws relevant to the price of labour. Can't you even see how that misunderstanding could happen?
Now, obviously by laws relevant to the price of labour you were not talking about the minimum wage, as you so aggressively pointed out. Please could you,. politely and preferably without swearing, explain to everybody who is stupider than you (that would be all of us) what on earth you were on about?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Well if we are required to have the same relevant laws and if we get no say on new ones it could well happen.
That's the point he was making, not really a dumb question.
The absence of a law is not a law. Yes, his question was dumb, because it implies that the absence of a law IS a law, which is ******* moronic. Deliberately moronic, in my opinion, because that's what dsr resorts to when he sees that the conversation isn't going his way. He tries to muddy the waters with stupidity.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Whereas you get all shouty and sweatyImploding Turtle wrote:The absence of a law is not a law. Yes, his question was dumb, because it implies that the absence of a law IS a law, which is ******* moronic. Deliberately moronic, in my opinion, because that's what dsr resorts to when he sees that the conversation isn't going his way. He tries to muddy the waters with stupidity.