Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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CombatClaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CombatClaret » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:02 pm

dsr wrote:How does the driver inform anyone they are carrying medicines? I don't know. Maybe they will try and use drivers who have mobile phones, or something. Or use trucks with a registration plate so they can see which ones are expected and are priority. Possibly create a government department concerned with the NHS that can facilitate things.
Who do they call, who is staffing these fictional call centeres?
A whole new medication focus licence plate registration system, which requires pre-filled forms that can be checked off on a database to correspond with incoming trucks, where do these get diverted to?
A whole new government department?!

Once more throw away sentences hardly though out on how exactly this is all magically meant to appear by Otc 31st to avoid delays and at what cost to the UK.

dsr
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:11 pm

CombatClaret wrote:Who do they call, who is staffing these fictional call centeres?
A whole new medication focus licence plate registration system, which requires pre-filled forms that can be checked off on a database to correspond with incoming trucks, where do these get diverted to?
A whole new government department?!

Once more throw away sentences hardly though out on how exactly this is all magically meant to appear by Otc 31st to avoid delays and at what cost to the UK.
Are there any big companies who have this sort of delivery question? Or is it an impossible puzzle for them too?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:28 pm

dsr wrote:Of course it's a worst case scenario. And a worst case scenario dreamed up by someone who was anti-Brexit, at that.
You think? This means a group of civil servants have wilfully skewed a serious study on which government action will be based and a lot of money spent. Or it might be that it’s true?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:31 pm

Who in their right mind thinks vital meds will go via Dover when there are other ports and airplanes? Answer someone that wants there to be a problem and to say I told you so.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:33 pm

AndrewJB wrote:You think? This means a group of civil servants have wilfully skewed a serious study on which government action will be based and a lot of money spent. Or it might be that it’s true?
Are you suggesting that if civil servants are told by their minister to produce a "worst-case" scenario based on zero preparation, they would refuse to do it?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:18 pm

Spiral wrote:3 years in and people are still disputing supply chain disruption? Really?
3 years in and remain are still upset they lost and trying to make out the world is going to end soon (exaggerated like always)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CombatClaret » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:40 pm

summitclaret wrote:Who in their right mind thinks vital meds will go via Dover when there are other ports and airplanes? Answer someone that wants there to be a problem and to say I told you so.
Ding, ding. Another random un-thought through "We can just do Y" solution.
Other ports will have this problem too, it's not exclusive to Dover. It's that Dover is the largest roll-on-roll-off port.

To use an airplane your talking about using a shipping company eg: UPS, FexEx etc companies cant all have their own plane. That adds unnecessary steps as item has to be packaged, sorted, labeled, picked up, sorted, shipped, main hub sorted, into lorry, airport, sorted, flown, sorted, driven etc etc etc.
It would also probably be totally unenviable financially to air freight the large quantities of product we're talking about with 2.7 million prescription items dispensed per day to a little under half of every man and woman in the UK.

Lorry shipping can go seller > lorry > customer via Dover or similar in a matter of hours at very low prices.
Roll-on Roll-off is the cheapest and most efficient way to move, I'm getting a lot of Dominic Raab vibes from people here about the Dover Calais crossing...
Last edited by CombatClaret on Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:44 pm

summitclaret wrote:Who in their right mind thinks vital meds will go via Dover when there are other ports and airplanes? Answer someone that wants there to be a problem and to say I told you so.
True. They'll probably use Seaborne Freight from Ramsgate.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:24 pm

dsr wrote:Are you suggesting that if civil servants are told by their minister to produce a "worst-case" scenario based on zero preparation, they would refuse to do it?
The report was described as not being a worst case scenario. “These are likely, reasonable scenarios” said a senior government source.

But then the only reason we’re doing this is because the EU will cave at the last minute, right? That’s what we’ve been told. So if we leave without a deal this will represent a gross miscalculation by our government - and how do you propose we should reward such incompetence?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:31 pm

AndrewJB wrote:“These are likely, reasonable scenarios” said a senior government source.
Who is the source?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:05 pm

And when all , what was being cited as "fact based evidence" that brexit will be a catastrophic disaster, doesn't actually materialise. Those that previously claimed it was "fact based evidence" will simply repeat what they did when their previous "evidence" failed to materialise. Which is then claim "aah, well, they were just predictions"


The old Remoaner "Get out of jail Free" Card .....

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:27 pm

Looks like Germany is heading for a depression...

Anyone else remember when the collapse of Land Rover was used by some remainers on here to use Brexit as the fault?
It was pointed out the collapse of the Chinese market was the main contributing factor and the same thing has happened to the German manufacturing industry.
A massive decline in sales of cars and machining parts with China has them teetering on the brink of recession.

Of course Trump's trade war with China is causing problems for the rest of the world.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:03 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:And when all , what was being cited as "fact based evidence" that brexit will be a catastrophic disaster, doesn't actually materialise. Those that previously claimed it was "fact based evidence" will simply repeat what they did when their previous "evidence" failed to materialise. Which is then claim "aah, well, they were just predictions"


The old Remoaner "Get out of jail Free" Card .....
I think an examination of claims on both sides made before the referendum vote isn't going to come out in your favour. How close is Turkey to joining the EU? Where is the "easiest trade deal in history"? Who really holds "all the cards"? Has the Irish border issue really been a minor thing?

Three years on and it's all been exposed as bullshit. They were either too stupid to know, or they lied. And leavers have been conned. If you gave everyone back then a crystal ball showing us now, three years later and about to leave with no deal - and a government spending billions on making emergency plans to ensure food, medicine, and fuel don't run out - Leave would never have come even close to winning that referendum. That's how far the reality is from the predictions and promises made by leavers. "Take back control" wouldn't have had the appeal, if you added: "by spaffing billions of pounds up the wall just to ensure the basics of life like food, medicine, and fuel continue to arrive on our shores"

People who have been scammed often deny it to themselves, and the people around them. Con artists know this, and use it to further milk them. "You put some money aside for your grandchildren. If you can cash those bonds in, it'll help us free up our cash and we'll get it back to you at twice the amount once the business is underway" You've been conned into agreeing to leave the EU, and now they're further conning you into leaving the EU without a deal. You would never have picked this had it been the only choice of leave to begin with (when I say "you" I mean most leave voters), but now you've done it, you're either on board, or you admit you've been scammed.

Back to those promises (or predictions) they made. Why is it none of them happened? We are here three years later and about to leave with no deal, when we were told we'd almost definitely have one, and not just a deal but a great deal. They will give you reasons why it hasn't happened, and interestingly none of their reasons have to do with them being wrong. Somehow it's the fault of remainers sabotaging everything. All the while, Leavers have occupied most of the important posts relating to this, and forced May into having red lines the EU would have no choice but to take a hard line against. They either lied to you and always wanted a no deal exit, or they were stupid and now find themselves in this position.

If we leave without a deal, "Mystic Andrew" predicts we'll try to become a tax haven for rich people, lower our food and environment standards to trade freely with the US, and eventually cut our working rights and conditions in order to compete with countries outside Europe. By this time the scammers will have nearly everything they want, and they'll take us out of the Human Rights Act, and replace it with something "British", but lesser, so those who have been scammed have no redress.

Mystic Ringo - I look forward to your predictions.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:12 am

AndrewJB wrote:Three years on and it's all been exposed as [deleted]. They were either too stupid to know, or they lied. And leavers have been conned. If you gave everyone back then a crystal ball showing us now, three years later and about to leave with no deal - and a government spending billions on making emergency plans to ensure food, medicine, and fuel don't run out - Leave would never have come even close to winning that referendum. That's how far the reality is from the predictions and promises made by leavers. "Take back control" wouldn't have had the appeal, if you added: "by spaffing billions of pounds up the wall just to ensure the basics of life like food, medicine, and fuel continue to arrive on our shores".
This is the usual "I'm clever and you are stupid" argument. It's not a vote winner.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:54 am

dsr wrote:This is the usual "I'm clever and you are stupid" argument. It's not a vote winner.
I'm not clever. I'm just me. You haven't countered my debate at all.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:23 am

dsr wrote:This is the usual "I'm clever and you are stupid" argument. It's not a vote winner.
I agree, it's not a vote winner. I would also say it's part of the reason that Brexit happened.

However, you've totally ignored the thrust of the post.

As someone who supports leave, why do you think the narrative has gone from "we'll get a better deal than we had" to "we're pretty sure there won't be food and medicine shortages"?

Is this what you expected when you voted to leave?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:41 am

dsr wrote:This is the usual "I'm clever and you are stupid" argument. It's not a vote winner.
You and I disagree on pretty much everything. But not, at least, this: the frantic predictions of remainers as to what will happen in the event of a hard or no-deal Brexit are completely laughable.

I mean, what are they thinking? They routinely describe a predicted GDP reduction of 2-3% as 'wrecking the economy' (how did they cope in 2008?), or a lorry full of medicines in Dover being utterly incapable of delivering its stock to a hospital, despite the vast resources available (I could even carry a bagful on foot and walk it 25 miles a day if need be for Christ's sake! And that's without the use of a pushbike!), or conjuring up images of emaciated children resulting from mass food shortages...

It does feel like they actually believe these dire predictions and, as such, I can sort of understand why they're so desperate to stop Brexit. I would be too. But if they really, truly believe this, why have they not cleared the shelves of Tesco of tinned goods? Or loaded up their garages with cans of petrol? Or emptied outdoorhobbies of their crossbows? A no-deal Brexit is not the ideal scenario for any sensible person. There would be repercussions. But anyone believing the apocalyptic predictions coming from remain camp (also known as 'The Guardian') is not a sensible person either. That's why they keep being ignored, and they just cannot understand why they're being ignored and laughed at. And, amusingly, it's coming from precisely the same people that sensibly mocked the apocalyptic predictions that would result from of a Corbyn government.

This whole debate has become an absolute joke.

(Yes. In the event a hard Brexit really does cause an apocalypse, I will happily come on here - assuming the internet is still operating - and say "Ooops. I got that one totally wrong. And I'm really, really embarrassed about it - I really am." I wonder if remainers will happily do the same when this doesn't materialise?)
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:50 am

aggi wrote:I agree, it's not a vote winner. I would also say it's part of the reason that Brexit happened.

However, you've totally ignored the thrust of the post.

As someone who supports leave, why do you think the narrative has gone from "we'll get a better deal than we had" to "we're pretty sure there won't be food and medicine shortages"?

Is this what you expected when you voted to leave?
But can you see? That this is a separate thing?

I did not predict correctly what would happen when I supported leave. I don't, and never did, want a no-deal Brexit. I did not imagine Farage would start a new party, trounce everyone in the European election, thereby forcing the Tories' hand. I did not predict that remainers would willfully destroy any prospect of a Corbyn government by forcing him into his ludicrous Brexit stance, either. There's loads of things I didn't predict.

But surely you can see that claiming an apocalypse if we hard-leave makes the remain camp look completely ridiculous? So why do they do it? They must know they'll be ignored - it's just begging to be laughed at. That's why the remain camp just isn't being taken seriously anymore. They've totally lost it, in exactly the same way that a lot of foaming-at-the-mouth Corbyn-haters seemed to completely lose it in 2017. That was very funny to witness, too.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Burnley Ace » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:53 am

If it be your will wrote:
(Yes. In the event a hard Brexit really does cause an apocalypse, I will happily come on here - assuming the internet is still operating - and say "Ooops. I got that one totally wrong. And I'm really, really embarrassed about it - I really am." I wonder if remainers will happily do the same when this doesn't materialise?)
If a Remainer has to apologise everything is ok, if a leaver has to apologise it’s because we are ****** - big difference.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Bfcboyo » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:30 am

I want to leave and I won't apologise. Even if we have to eat the neighbours dogs.
Even if it ends up like a zombie apocalypse yeah it will be fine right yeah because it's for the good of the country long term right.

Even if we are all wiped out it will have been the right choice because it will mean we saved Britain ok. Why can you remainers not see this!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:01 am

AndrewJB wrote: Mystic Ringo - I look forward to your predictions.
I thought it was a good post up till that last sentence.
You must be mad inviting that on. I predict that this'll run and run.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Erasmus » Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:55 am

Bfcboyo explains the lines of debate perfectly. For many of those who want to leave the EU, 'Britain' is a romantic conception to supported by nationalist ideals. We are asked to make sacrifices in order to uphold the ideal of 'Britain'. All of us are probably inclined in that way to some extent, even if it is only in supporting the England sports teams.

From the other side are those who believe that the strength, greatness and prosperity of 'Britain' is to be supported because of the benefits bestowed on the people. In other words, the role of 'Britain' is solely to provide support for the people of the country, whilst in the other view the role of the people is to support the nation of 'Britain'. Hence we should make 'Britain' into whatever can bestow the greatest benefits on the people.

I use inverted commas on Britain because I am talking about a concept rather than a reality.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:33 am

Burnley Ace wrote:If a Remainer has to apologise everything is ok, if a leaver has to apologise it’s because we are ****** - big difference.
Okay, point taken. But I'm attempting to explain why such predictions aren't having any traction with leavers.

If you're looking for events that have the potential to end civilisation as we know it, how about a war in the South China Sea? A nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan is far from unthinkable at the moment, or perhaps a sudden collapse in the global debt bubble (this one seems fairly likely to me). A US invasion of Iran has the potential to get very dicey very quickly, too. A single, high altitude, North Korean atomic bomb could wipe out electronic equipment over a whole continent. Even the worst predictions of climate change are starting to appear entirely plausible. You're spoilt for choice - we live in dangerous times. Hell, in my weaker moments, I even wonder about the impact of coating the globe in microplastics, that we are ingesting by the million every day!

But not flipping Brexit. There's no point making out Brexit is an existential threat.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:53 am

If it be your will wrote: But not flipping Brexit. There's no point making out Brexit is an existential threat.
Unless of course it does actually threaten the existence of your livelihood, which for many farmers and (those in some other areas), it may well do.
(Your generic point is ok though).

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:18 pm

AndrewJB wrote:I think an examination of claims on both sides made before the referendum vote isn't going to come out in your favour. How close is Turkey to joining the EU? Where is the "easiest trade deal in history"? Who really holds "all the cards"? Has the Irish border issue really been a minor thing?

Three years on and it's all been exposed as bullshit. They were either too stupid to know, or they lied. And leavers have been conned. If you gave everyone back then a crystal ball showing us now, three years later and about to leave with no deal - and a government spending billions on making emergency plans to ensure food, medicine, and fuel don't run out - Leave would never have come even close to winning that referendum. That's how far the reality is from the predictions and promises made by leavers. "Take back control" wouldn't have had the appeal, if you added: "by spaffing billions of pounds up the wall just to ensure the basics of life like food, medicine, and fuel continue to arrive on our shores"

People who have been scammed often deny it to themselves, and the people around them. Con artists know this, and use it to further milk them. "You put some money aside for your grandchildren. If you can cash those bonds in, it'll help us free up our cash and we'll get it back to you at twice the amount once the business is underway" You've been conned into agreeing to leave the EU, and now they're further conning you into leaving the EU without a deal. You would never have picked this had it been the only choice of leave to begin with (when I say "you" I mean most leave voters), but now you've done it, you're either on board, or you admit you've been scammed.

Back to those promises (or predictions) they made. Why is it none of them happened? We are here three years later and about to leave with no deal, when we were told we'd almost definitely have one, and not just a deal but a great deal. They will give you reasons why it hasn't happened, and interestingly none of their reasons have to do with them being wrong. Somehow it's the fault of remainers sabotaging everything. All the while, Leavers have occupied most of the important posts relating to this, and forced May into having red lines the EU would have no choice but to take a hard line against. They either lied to you and always wanted a no deal exit, or they were stupid and now find themselves in this position.

If we leave without a deal, "Mystic Andrew" predicts we'll try to become a tax haven for rich people, lower our food and environment standards to trade freely with the US, and eventually cut our working rights and conditions in order to compete with countries outside Europe. By this time the scammers will have nearly everything they want, and they'll take us out of the Human Rights Act, and replace it with something "British", but lesser, so those who have been scammed have no redress.

Mystic Ringo - I look forward to your predictions.
I predict that you'll never accept the result of the largest single expression of democracy this nation has ever witnessed.

You, and people like you , are just like the guy in the pub after the game where a ref awarded a penalty that you didn't agree with. Whining on relentlessly, boring the life our of everybody else who has simply accepted the result and want to move on.

DEMOCRACY- IT MEANS SOMETIMES, YOU LOSE

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:23 pm

Isn't it amusing when 5 million labour voters , voted to leave the EU in 2016, they were stupid gullible sheep, who were conned into making the wrong choice.

When the very same 5 million voted labour at the last general election in 2017, they presumably, they were no longer stupid gullible sheep, who were not conned and made the right choice!

Remoaners - people are no longer stupid, as long as they agree with them! :lol:

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by claret2018 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:29 pm

Ringo can’t ever go back on his ideology now, he’s based his entire personality around it over the last few years. People will go to amazing, illogical lengths before admitting they were wrong.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by claret2018 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:29 pm

Ringo can’t ever go back on his ideology now, he’s based his entire personality around it over the last few years. People will go to amazing, illogical lengths before admitting they were wrong.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:36 pm

My ideology is this.

The democratically expressed wishes of The People must be implemented.





Call me old fashioned............

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:54 pm

aggi wrote:I agree, it's not a vote winner. I would also say it's part of the reason that Brexit happened.

However, you've totally ignored the thrust of the post.

As someone who supports leave, why do you think the narrative has gone from "we'll get a better deal than we had" to "we're pretty sure there won't be food and medicine shortages"?

Is this what you expected when you voted to leave?
The narrative has gone to "there won't be food and medicine shortages" because a lot of people who want to stop Brexit have continually peddled the notion that there will be shortages. It has to be denied. Just as before the referendum, the idea of immediate recession and 800,000 job losses - a fiction peddled by the Chancellor of the Exchequer - had to be denied as well. When Remainers will not stop inventing disaster scenarios, with a new disaster appearing every time the old one doesn't happen, then that will be high on the agenda because it has to be denied.

And you know why "we'll get a better deal than we had" has gone. Though no-one ever said, so far as I know, that we would have a better deal with the EU than we already had with the EU; just that we would be better off overall. But as you know, the EU will not sign a new deal that is acceptable to the UK, and the UK will not sign a deal that is acceptable to the EU, and so there can't be a deal.

I'm fairly sure that food and medicine shortages weren't mentioned in the Scottish independence referendum, and nor was the prospect of a customs wall across the border. Why not?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Cheerful » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:37 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:My ideology is this.

The democratically expressed wishes of The People must be implemented.





Call me old fashioned............

The wishes of The People in the 2017 GE were that we should not leave without a deal.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:43 pm

Cheerful wrote:The wishes of The People in the 2017 GE were that we should not leave without a deal.
How many people voted for parties that said "we will not leave except on terms that the EU deems satisfactory"? The Tories certainly didn't say that.

Anyway, even if that was The wishes of The People, it cannot be fulfilled. The only deal on offer is not acceptable to any of the parties in the House of Commons, and no alternative deal is acceptable to the EU. So if we can't get the first choice, we get the next best thing. And obeying the referendum result is better than ignoring it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:53 pm

dsr wrote:How many people voted for parties that said "we will not leave except on terms that the EU deems satisfactory"? The Tories certainly didn't say that.

Anyway, even if that was The wishes of The People, it cannot be fulfilled. The only deal on offer is not acceptable to any of the parties in the House of Commons, and no alternative deal is acceptable to the EU. So if we can't get the first choice, we get the next best thing. And obeying the referendum result is better than ignoring it.
Once all the remain tactics come to nowt... the EU will agree a deal. It remains in everyone’s interest, not least Europe’s.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:27 pm

elwaclaret wrote:Once all the remain tactics come to nowt... the EU will agree a deal. It remains in everyone’s interest, not least Europe’s.
I think they will eventually. But I very much doubt it would be before 31st October; and I wouldn't like to guess how long afterwards it would take,

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:41 pm

dsr wrote:I think they will eventually. But I very much doubt it would be before 31st October; and I wouldn't like to guess how long afterwards it would take,
Think they will agree to push most of it onto the next phase. As Ian Hislop has pointed out the backstop is more a political pawn than a reality. Northern Ireland has many laws different to the mainland. Pure pigheadedness and seeing a potential to bribe more Protestant concessions are the only reason an all Ireland trade border cannot be introduced as a temporary solution until a more perm isn’t and acceptable compromise can be reached.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:51 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Isn't it amusing when 5 million labour voters , voted to leave the EU in 2016, they were stupid gullible sheep, who were conned into making the wrong choice.

When the very same 5 million voted labour at the last general election in 2017, they presumably, they were no longer stupid gullible sheep, who were not conned and made the right choice!

Remoaners - people are no longer stupid, as long as they agree with them! :lol:
The people I've called stupid are the politicians who failed to deliver what they promised. Either stupid, or they lied to you.

Anyone can be scammed. The con artist looks for the weaknesses in your character and plays on them. There is no shame in being scammed, just like there is no shame in being mugged or your house broken into. You are the unfortunate victim and it could happen to anyone. What I've been trying to point out with this is how the narrative has changed from being positive about getting a great deal (and how anyone suggesting differently was scaremongering) to now looking at leaving without a deal at all. From having a great relationship with our European partners, to cutting all ties. This is a huge shift.

I've said before that I despised the way Cameron and Osborne campaigned for remain, using fear and negativity. Other remain parties - Greens, Labour, SNP - were a lot more positive.

If we just left the EU, and stayed within the other structures (even if we did this with the eye to cutting more ties in the future) then there would be less disruption, but they've now shifted things to the hardest possible brexit, and the government study shows that this will bring issues. It's hardly alarmist to point this out, and it doesn't make one a conspiracy theorist to wonder why things have been steered this way. The Tories have form for using a crisis to push through unpalatable legislation (austerity?).

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:52 pm

elwaclaret wrote:Think they will agree to push most of it onto the next phase. As Ian Hislop has pointed out the backstop is more a political pawn than a reality. Northern Ireland has many laws different to the mainland. Pure pigheadedness and seeing a potential to bribe more Protestant concessions are the only reason an all Ireland trade border cannot be introduced as a temporary solution until a more perm isn’t and acceptable compromise can be reached.
What has Ian Hislop said?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CombatClaret » Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:52 pm

If it be your will wrote:Okay, point taken. But I'm attempting to explain why such predictions aren't having any traction with leavers.
If you're looking for events that have the potential to end civilisation as we know it, how about a war in the South China Sea?
If it be your will wrote: Claiming an apocalypse if we hard-leave makes the remain camp look completely ridiculous? So why do they do it?.
Lots of moving the goal posts here by the Brexiters.
No where has anyone seriously predicted the end of the world or an apocalypse, the collapse of Britain as we know it in the event of Brexit.
What people are predicting is negative financial and social effects, but not a world ending event.

But now If you keep saying that's what predicted, so long as Brexit doesn't cause the literal end of the world you can point it is a success and how it's not as bad as people predicted, despite no one ever saying it would.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Chip Harrison » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:15 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:My ideology is this.

The democratically expressed wishes of The People must be implemented.





Call me old fashioned............
Call me old fashioned, but 17 million people voted to remain in the 1975 EU referendum That was 67% of the electorate. What happened to democracy on this occasion?
The people spoke then, but we had another referendum, did democracy lose or are you ok with that?

If you are, then why can't we have another referendum?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:46 pm

Chip Harrison wrote:Call me old fashioned, but 17 million people voted to remain in the 1975 EU referendum That was 67% of the electorate. What happened to democracy on this occasion?
The people spoke then, but we had another referendum, did democracy lose or are you ok with that?

If you are, then why can't we have another referendum?
If you think the EU existed in 1975, think again.

I know it's a fairly common view of democracy that if you vote the "right" way you enact the result, if you vote the "wrong" way you have another go; but there are certain problems with this approach, I hope you can agree. Obviously Remainers will be able (at least in part) to justify it to themselves, but even while you are doing it, try and understand that at least some people don't like this approach.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:55 pm

If it be your will wrote: I mean, what are they thinking? They routinely describe a predicted GDP reduction of 2-3% as 'wrecking the economy' (how did they cope in 2008?)


Lots didn’t cope in 2008. Thousands of businesses, big and small, went under, lives were changed, people lost their houses and lived on the streets, foodbanks boomed. Should we deliberately create those conditions again?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Cheerful » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:19 pm

dsr wrote: Anyway, even if that was The wishes of The People, it cannot be fulfilled. The only deal on offer is not acceptable to any of the parties in the House of Commons and no alternative deal is acceptable to the EU.
Which is precisely why we need another referendum.

dsr wrote:
So if we can't get the first choice, we get the next best thing. And obeying the referendum result is better than ignoring it.
The next best thing to today's situation is medicine shortages?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by bfcmik » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:33 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:My ideology is this.

The democratically expressed wishes of The People must be implemented.





Call me old fashioned............
Farage - (when he thought Remain was going to narrowly win): "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way" And so it is.
Rees-Mogg - "We could have 2 referendums. As it happens, it might make more sense to have the second referendum after the negotiation is completed." Pains me to say it but he could be right, you know!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:42 pm

AndrewJB wrote:The report was described as not being a worst case scenario. “These are likely, reasonable scenarios” said a senior government source.

But then the only reason we’re doing this is because the EU will cave at the last minute, right? That’s what we’ve been told. So if we leave without a deal this will represent a gross miscalculation by our government - and how do you propose we should reward such incompetence?
Deselect the lying bastards. They've wasted 3 years on preparing for a no deal scenario, and as has been shown since Boris took office, they not only didn't prepare, they undermined those who wanted to.
I've said in other threads that in the Israeli cabinet they arent allowed to agree. In every decision someone has to look at the opposite point of view, the worst case scenario of everything, even if they dont expect it. That way they are never caught out by things going wrong, they are prepared for everything. There is nothing wrong with working out a worst case scenario for Brexit, it makes sense, but then releasing that document as if it is fact is just another example of Remainers trying to undermine Brexit. It is pitiful that some people are so blinkered they cant recognise it for what it is.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:52 pm

aggi wrote:I agree, it's not a vote winner. I would also say it's part of the reason that Brexit happened.

However, you've totally ignored the thrust of the post.

As someone who supports leave, why do you think the narrative has gone from "we'll get a better deal than we had" to "we're pretty sure there won't be food and medicine shortages"?

Is this what you expected when you voted to leave?
As someone who voted to leave I expected to leave.
Full Stop.

There is a very simple and obvious reason why no deal has been reached. It's because Parliament has the EU clinging on to the chance that we might remain if they dont come to the table and discuss a new deal.

It's why leaving with no deal is the only option left. IT IS the only way to get a new deal.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:13 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49405270" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Weird how all these different reports keep coming out from Project Fear.

It’s a good job there is definitely no concern. None all. Everything is going great.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:16 pm

AndrewJB wrote:The people I've called stupid are the politicians who failed to deliver what they promised. Either stupid, or they lied to you.

Anyone can be scammed. The con artist looks for the weaknesses in your character and plays on them. There is no shame in being scammed, just like there is no shame in being mugged or your house broken into. You are the unfortunate victim and it could happen to anyone. What I've been trying to point out with this is how the narrative has changed from being positive about getting a great deal (and how anyone suggesting differently was scaremongering) to now looking at leaving without a deal at all. From having a great relationship with our European partners, to cutting all ties. This is a huge shift.

I've said before that I despised the way Cameron and Osborne campaigned for remain, using fear and negativity. Other remain parties - Greens, Labour, SNP - were a lot more positive.

If we just left the EU, and stayed within the other structures (even if we did this with the eye to cutting more ties in the future) then there would be less disruption, but they've now shifted things to the hardest possible brexit, and the government study shows that this will bring issues. It's hardly alarmist to point this out, and it doesn't make one a conspiracy theorist to wonder why things have been steered this way. The Tories have form for using a crisis to push through unpalatable legislation (austerity?).
Nobody has mentioned cutting all ties, just you.
We'll still trade with the EU just under different terms.
Boris has already said any EU nationals residing and working in Britain are welcome to stay. Any more that are thinking of coming can also come, providing they meet a points style criteria , similar to Australia. You're acting like a typical Remainer exaggerating myths.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:29 pm

CombatClaret wrote:Lots of moving the goal posts here by the Brexiters.
No where has anyone seriously predicted the end of the world or an apocalypse, the collapse of Britain as we know it in the event of Brexit.
What people are predicting is negative financial and social effects, but not a world ending event.

But now If you keep saying that's what predicted, so long as Brexit doesn't cause the literal end of the world you can point it is a success and how it's not as bad as people predicted, despite no one ever saying it would.
They predicted a recession the day after we voted leave they said it would cost every household in the country an extra £1,400 , they predicted there would be 500,000 jobs lost.
None of which of course happened.
So the predictions of negative financial and social effects are nothing new. What makes you think the new prophecies of doom are any more reliable than the old ones.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:43 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:They predicted a recession the day after we voted leave they said it would cost every household in the country an extra £1,400 , they predicted there would be 500,000 jobs lost.
None of which of course happened.
You’re right, the cost per household at the end of last year was £1500 not £1400 as predicted.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.inde ... html%3famp

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:53 pm

Chip Harrison wrote:Call me old fashioned, but 17 million people voted to remain in the 1975 EU referendum That was 67% of the electorate. What happened to democracy on this occasion?
The people spoke then, but we had another referendum, did democracy lose or are you ok with that?

If you are, then why can't we have another referendum?

The 1975 referendum was to join the Common Market. It has morphed into the European union. But I'll let that go. The 1975 referendum result was implemented. That's democracy.

The 2016 referendum result is yet to be implemented. That's democracy denial.

By all means, campaign for another referendum. But not before the 2016 Peoples Vote is implemented, then campaign to rejoin the EU.
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