Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[Elizabeth]

My grandmother once gave me some advice that has served me well over my lifetime ' Avoid giving help to those unwilling to learn'
I suppose even a conditional 'Yes' is some progress

[Imploding Turtle]

As you don't see any significance in Johnson's dealings with Merkel and Macron this week ,the same question I asked last night is put to you.
If Johnson gets changes to the Withdrawal Agreement which are accepted by Parliament, will you regard him as successful?

Yes, if he can negotiate the price down from £100 to £99.99 at the very last possible second then he'll be hailed an amazing success, by you.

[Elizabeth]

That'll be a 'No' then.
Any other gems?

[AndrewJB]

These same serious, intelligent, pragmatic politicians who have their eye on the ball didn't give May the same respect as Johnson has received this week, at any time over the period you refer to.

I believe that was because they never believed May was serious about leaving without a deal. They know Johnson is serious.

The only respect Johnson got was in being spoken to at all. The U.K. press lied about the speeches Merkel & Macron made afterward (read their words for yourself). Tories claiming that “body language” signalled a difference are just as laughable.

Nothing has changed.

[Elizabeth]

Those Tories you refer to include the ones who Corbyn , Swinson etc want and need to plot against No Deal .
I would suggest if those Tories give Johnson more time to try and get a deal it will only strengthen Johnson's position in our Parliament.
So in my opinion something has changed . Yes or No?

[Colburn_Claret]

The only respect Johnson got was in being spoken to at all. The U.K. press lied about the speeches Merkel & Macron made afterward (read their words for yourself). Tories claiming that “body language” signalled a difference are just as laughable.

Nothing has changed.

You're right and wrong.
The EU position hasn't changed, but ours has Johnson is serious about leaving with no deal

If it were up to the likes of Tusk and his carved in stone federalist mates we would never get a deal. They would rather cut their own noses off, than let Brexit be a success. The problem they have is the pain it will cause to the economies of member states, and they will want a deal in order to avoid a recession.

I think the real battle isnt between us and the EU, but the EU and the remaining members. I think the members will win, because they have to answer to their electorate where as Tusk and his cronies answer to nobody as the last 20 years have shown.

[Elizabeth]

A good point and Tusk is probably on the phone to Lucifer after this big week for Johnson

[Elizabeth]

I am going to guess the next post from one of our resident remoaners is that Johnson is playing games and has no intention of trying to get a deal.

Likely to be one who constantly posts about the perils of No Deal while voting remain and not wanting any deal but using the higher ground to express how No Deal will ruin so many lives.

For the record in case there is any confusion I would not like to see No Deal.

I would like to see what 17.4 million and nearly as many who voted remain would like to see. An end to this nonsense from the European Commission and Varadkar. The UK leaving the EU after a proper democratic vote in 2016.
The fact that it is now 2019 and hasn't happened will not go down well with the electorate . People who thought their vote counted and trusted their MP to represent the majority of their constituents in Parliament .
Unlike the Burnley MP who has represented the minority in this major matter for the country. And many more Labour MPs who have put party politics first.
The stench will not go away for years, possibly decades.

[Greenmile]

Those Tories you refer to include the ones who Corbyn , Swinson etc want and need to plot against No Deal .
I would suggest if those Tories give Johnson more time to try and get a deal it will only strengthen Johnson's position in our Parliament.
So in my opinion something has changed . Yes or No?

You’re definitely Ringo. To the point that I’m embarrassed that I ever doubted it.

[Greenmile]

I am going to guess the next post from one of our resident remoaners is that Johnson is playing games and has no intention of trying to get a deal...

Wrong again, Ringo.

[Elizabeth]

Sorry, you don't count. First eleven not ball boys.

[aggi]

You're right and wrong.
The EU position hasn't changed, but ours has Johnson is serious about leaving with no deal

If it were up to the likes of Tusk and his carved in stone federalist mates we would never get a deal. They would rather cut their own noses off, than let Brexit be a success. The problem they have is the pain it will cause to the economies of member states, and they will want a deal in order to avoid a recession.

I think the real battle isnt between us and the EU, but the EU and the remaining members. I think the members will win, because they have to answer to their electorate where as Tusk and his cronies answer to nobody as the last 20 years have shown.

I'm always amazed by this idea that the EU is somehow entirely divorced from the members. It's as if the leaders aren't selected by the leaders of all of the individual countries but just magically appear.

[AndrewJB]

Blaming Ireland and the EU for a shambles we’ve made ourselves. Shameful.

[nil_desperandum]

Ok.
Leaving aside what Merkel and Macron actually said and how you interpret it.
Let's just imagine for a moment that miraculously a solution to the backstop were to be found in the next month.
This means - effectively - that May's "deal", (which don't forget Johnson has already voted for) goes back to Parliament to be ratified.
So 2 questions: Would it get through Parliament without ERG support?, and would the Boris "happy clappers" on here be happy with it becoming law?
I seem to recall that when it was May's deal you weren't too enthusiastic.

[AndrewJB]

Ok.
Leaving aside what Merkel and Macron actually said and how you interpret it.
Let's just imagine for a moment that miraculously a solution to the backstop were to be found in the next month.
This means - effectively - that May's "deal", (which don't forget Johnson has already voted for) goes back to Parliament to be ratified.
So 2 questions: Would it get through Parliament without ERG support?, and would the Boris "happy clappers" on here be happy with it becoming law?
I seem to recall that when it was May's deal you weren't too enthusiastic.

Some hardliners reminded Johnson that it’s not just the backstop they hate. Davis was on the radio Friday saying he reckoned we could negotiate down the payment. But of course, if no deal happens, it’s all the EUs fault.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indepe ... html%3famp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Imploding Turtle]

Some hardliners reminded Johnson that it’s not just the backstop they hate. Davis was on the radio Friday saying he reckoned we could negotiate down the payment. But of course, if no deal happens, it’s all the EUs fault.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indepe ... html%3famp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's everyone's fault except the people who campaigned for it and the people who voted for it.

[AndrewJB]

You're right and wrong.
The EU position hasn't changed, but ours has Johnson is serious about leaving with no deal

If it were up to the likes of Tusk and his carved in stone federalist mates we would never get a deal. They would rather cut their own noses off, than let Brexit be a success. The problem they have is the pain it will cause to the economies of member states, and they will want a deal in order to avoid a recession.

I think the real battle isnt between us and the EU, but the EU and the remaining members. I think the members will win, because they have to answer to their electorate where as Tusk and his cronies answer to nobody as the last 20 years have shown.

This is the whole point, isn't it? We go hard and threaten a no deal brexit, and they all go limp and give us a great deal. "We hold all the cards" "it won't be just a good deal, but a great deal!" And that is all bullshit. We all know a no deal brexit hurts us more than them - never a 'good bargaining position'

Your last point suggests the members of the EU could force the hand of the EU to make a deal with Britain. This means the EU don't have power over members.

[nil_desperandum]

I'm always amazed by this idea that the EU is somehow entirely divorced from the members. It's as if the leaders aren't selected by the leaders of all of the individual countries but just magically appear.

It's just as if some people really don't know what they're talking about and can't be bothered to research it.
As an example, Donald Tusk has a far greater democratic mandate than Boris Johnson.
Emerging from the time that Poland threw off the shackles of Communism, he's held elected posts in Poland almost continuously from 1991, eventually becoming Prime Minister in 2007.
He's the only Polish PM, so far, to have achieved re-election and held the post for longer than anyone in the Polish 3rd Republic. He only resigned from office in 2014 after he had been elected to his current post, and continues to hold the post now following his re-election in 2017.

[AndrewJB]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... cines-food" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interested to see what sort of stockpiling people on here have done. Is it a war? Is it a natural disaster? No. We’re doing this to ourselves.

[Spijed]

It's clear that if we want to do a deal with the USA then Donald Trump won't allow allow us to make a similar deal with China. It'll be one or the other.

[Chip Harrison]

Looks like the no deal exit is going to be stopped.....BBC News just now

Opposition MPs say they have agreed to try to block a no-deal Brexit by passing legislation in Parliament.

A meeting between those opposed to no deal was called by Jeremy Corbyn.

A joint statement afterwards did not detail how or when legislative attempts would be made, but Green MP Caroline Lucas said it was the best way to stop a PM "careering towards" no deal.

The statement also said using a vote of no confidence to bring down the government remained an option.

The UK is set to leave the EU by 31 October and Boris Johnson has promised to stick to that date even if he cannot agree a deal with Brussels.

Ms Lucas said "the legislative way forward" was "the most secure way to try to extend Article 50, to get rid of that 31 October deadline".

[aggi]

This one amused me:

[dsr]

Looks like the no deal exit is going to be stopped.....BBC News just now

Opposition MPs say they have agreed to try to block a no-deal Brexit by passing legislation in Parliament.

A meeting between those opposed to no deal was called by Jeremy Corbyn.

A joint statement afterwards did not detail how or when legislative attempts would be made, but Green MP Caroline Lucas said it was the best way to stop a PM "careering towards" no deal.

The statement also said using a vote of no confidence to bring down the government remained an option.

The UK is set to leave the EU by 31 October and Boris Johnson has promised to stick to that date even if he cannot agree a deal with Brussels.

Ms Lucas said "the legislative way forward" was "the most secure way to try to extend Article 50, to get rid of that 31 October deadline".

Good trick if they can do it. What are they going to do, pass a law that says October has only 30 days this year? They can't legislate against a no-deal Brexit, they have to positively vote for something. May's deal won't do, and they can't negotiate a new deal themselves; all they can do is either instruct the PM to apply for another extension, or else instruct the PM to withdraw Article 50.

Except that the PM will say in advance that this is to be treated as a vote of confidence. Which means that he can and will refuse to do it; he will offer his resignation to the Queen, which she will not accept until it is clear that someone else has the confidence of House and can form a new administration. And who is that going to be? They have a fortnight.

And where does the Parliament Act fit into this? Assuming that Parliament can't find a figurehead as short-term PM, will Parliament agree to a general election? What if no-one can command a majority but won't dissolve itself?

By the time this has all been played out, it will be too late. They need minimum 6 weeks (I believe) for a general election campaign, and the last Thursday before 31st October is on the 31st itself - too late. It would be the 24th. Back 6 weeks from that is 12th September, and two weeks before that for all the parliamentary shenanigans is 29th August - the day after tomorrow. They shouldn't have spent so long on their summer holidays, should they.

[Colburn_Claret]

Ok.
Leaving aside what Merkel and Macron actually said and how you interpret it.
Let's just imagine for a moment that miraculously a solution to the backstop were to be found in the next month.
This means - effectively - that May's "deal", (which don't forget Johnson has already voted for) goes back to Parliament to be ratified.
So 2 questions: Would it get through Parliament without ERG support?, and would the Boris "happy clappers" on here be happy with it becoming law?
I seem to recall that when it was May's deal you weren't too enthusiastic.

Speaking for myself, I wouldn't be happy.
Sorting the backstop has always been secondary to me compared to sticking to those red lines. It would also leave Johnson exposed to Farage, who definitely wouldnt like it.
It's hard to guess which way Johnson will go, the rhetoric is ok, but that doesn't mean hes going to deliver.

Imo no deal, is still better than a bad deal.

[Colburn_Claret]

Some hardliners reminded Johnson that it’s not just the backstop they hate. Davis was on the radio Friday saying he reckoned we could negotiate down the payment. But of course, if no deal happens, it’s all the EUs fault.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indepe ... html%3famp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seeing as , in the only deal on the table, we gave away everything, including the kitchen sink, it's impossible for us to give anymore. That being the facts, it can only change if the EU give a little.
I wouldnt blame them if they dont, that's their choice, so laying fault, if at all, should really be laid at TMs door, but you cant blame Johnson if he doesn't give them anymore. Especially when the HOC has voted it down God knows how many times.

[Colburn_Claret]

The irony of MPs.
Johnson is careering towards a no deal Brexit.
We've been waiting 3 years already, and they want to put it off again.

[Chip Harrison]

Speaking for myself, I wouldn't be happy.
Sorting the backstop has always been secondary to me compared to sticking to those red lines. It would also leave Johnson exposed to Farage, who definitely wouldnt like it.
It's hard to guess which way Johnson will go, the rhetoric is ok, but that doesn't mean hes going to deliver.

Imo no deal, is still better than a bad deal.

Absolutely typical reply from someone that has done zero research on how important the backstop, and the GFA are to ROI, NI and the UK.

[If it be your will]

Good trick if they can do it. What are they going to do, pass a law that says October has only 30 days this year? They can't legislate against a no-deal Brexit, they have to positively vote for something. May's deal won't do, and they can't negotiate a new deal themselves; all they can do is either instruct the PM to apply for another extension, or else instruct the PM to withdraw Article 50.

Except that the PM will say in advance that this is to be treated as a vote of confidence. Which means that he can and will refuse to do it; he will offer his resignation to the Queen, which she will not accept until it is clear that someone else has the confidence of House and can form a new administration. And who is that going to be? They have a fortnight.

And where does the Parliament Act fit into this? Assuming that Parliament can't find a figurehead as short-term PM, will Parliament agree to a general election? What if no-one can command a majority but won't dissolve itself?

By the time this has all been played out, it will be too late. They need minimum 6 weeks (I believe) for a general election campaign, and the last Thursday before 31st October is on the 31st itself - too late. It would be the 24th. Back 6 weeks from that is 12th September, and two weeks before that for all the parliamentary shenanigans is 29th August - the day after tomorrow. They shouldn't have spent so long on their summer holidays, should they.

This is basically my view. Johnson knows the Conservative Party is effectively dead unless he delivers something approximating to a very hard Brexit, and Johnson knows he can get it, too, just as you say he can. It's looked a cert for ages to me.

But what I don't understand is the odds of 5/4 that are available for a no-deal Brexit. If it's so certain, why are bookmakers allowing people to bet at these odds? Okay, they're shorter odds that they were a while ago, but still odds-against. I don't get it. (Any idea, dsr?)

[Colburn_Claret]

Absolutely typical reply from someone that has done zero research on how important the backstop, and the GFA are to ROI, NI and the UK.

I never said the backstop wasnt important, just that if Johnsons only concession was the backstop it wouldnt satisfy me, as those red lines are just if not more important. Imo.

[AndrewJB]

This is basically my view. Johnson knows the Conservative Party is effectively dead unless he delivers something approximating to a very hard Brexit, and Johnson knows he can get it, too, just as you say he can. It's looked a cert for ages to me.

But what I don't understand is the odds of 5/4 that are available for a no-deal Brexit. If it's so certain, why are bookmakers allowing people to bet at these odds? Okay, they're shorter odds that they were a while ago, but still odds-against. I don't get it. (Any idea, dsr?)

Odds given depend on odds taken, as much as what is likely.

[If it be your will]

Odds given depend on odds taken, as much as what is likely.

So do you think 'no-deal' is close to certain, too?

I'm tempted to wager a decent sum on this, but it's causing a dilemma: unless I'm missing something, this is basically free money. Therefore I must be missing something!

I just can't fathom what it is I'm missing. Perhaps if we agree a trifling deal relating to medicines or something, it no longer qualifies as 'no-deal' according to the bookmakers. Maybe that's it. (Bit harsh if that's it, though.)

[dsr]

This is basically my view. Johnson knows the Conservative Party is effectively dead unless he delivers something approximating to a very hard Brexit, and Johnson knows he can get it, too, just as you say he can. It's looked a cert for ages to me.

But what I don't understand is the odds of 5/4 that are available for a no-deal Brexit. If it's so certain, why are bookmakers allowing people to bet at these odds? Okay, they're shorter odds that they were a while ago, but still odds-against. I don't get it. (Any idea, dsr?)

I suppose there are several other options - no Brexit at all, delay of Brexit, Boris-gets-a-deal Brexit. I don't know if they're taking money on any of them as well. There might be an element of doing it for publicity as well - they can afford to take a hit for advertising purposes.

[aggi]

So do you think 'no-deal' is close to certain, too?

I'm tempted to wager a decent sum on this, but it's causing a dilemma: unless I'm missing something, this is basically free money. Therefore I must be missing something!

I just can't fathom what it is I'm missing. Perhaps if we agree a trifling deal relating to medicines or something, it no longer qualifies as 'no-deal' according to the bookmakers. Maybe that's it. (Bit harsh if that's it, though.)

I'd say the most likely result is we leave with something like May's deal rolled in glitter so Boris can say they capitulated but it is substantively the same.

[dsr]

I'd say the most likely result is we leave with something like May's deal rolled in glitter so Boris can say they capitulated but it is substantively the same.

That's my worry too. In a sense, the Remainers might help, because as long as the EU thinks no-deal won't happen, they won't concede anything.

[If it be your will]

I suppose there are several other options - no Brexit at all, delay of Brexit, Boris-gets-a-deal Brexit. I don't know if they're taking money on any of them as well. There might be an element of doing it for publicity as well - they can afford to take a hit for advertising purposes.

There are odds available on other outcomes, and 5/4 isn't just one bookmaker - it's widely available. Yet, like you, I can't realistically see another outcome, all things considered.

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/br ... eal-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I've learnt that whenever I conclude the bookies are wrong I'm usually mistaken, though. There must be more chance that parliament can stop Brexit than we imagine.

[AndrewJB]

Seeing as , in the only deal on the table, we gave away everything, including the kitchen sink, it's impossible for us to give anymore. That being the facts, it can only change if the EU give a little.
I wouldnt blame them if they dont, that's their choice, so laying fault, if at all, should really be laid at TMs door, but you cant blame Johnson if he doesn't give them anymore. Especially when the HOC has voted it down God knows how many times.

Why do you think Johnson.can do better than May, when the realities are the same and his parliamentary equation is worse? It doesn’t seem like the EU are cracking under the threat of no deal. They might still, but as time goes by and we approach that abrupt change in our lives, it looks more likely that Johnson has chosen a bit of pain for U.K. residents (and the EU). Very different from “we’ll get a great deal”. Let me know when you begin to feel ripped off.

[If it be your will]

I'd say the most likely result is we leave with something like May's deal rolled in glitter so Boris can say they capitulated but it is substantively the same.

Possibly, of course. But in the following GE the Tories would be annihilated by Farage if they agreed to a May-style deal, however glittery. And at the moment the EU doesn't look like making any concessions at all. Not offering so much as a pinch of glitter.

[dsr]

Why do you think Johnson.can do better than May, when the realities are the same and his parliamentary equation is worse? It doesn’t seem like the EU are cracking under the threat of no deal. They might still, but as time goes by and we approach that abrupt change in our lives, it looks more likely that Johnson has chosen a bit of pain for U.K. residents (and the EU). Very different from “we’ll get a great deal”. Let me know when you begin to feel ripped off.?

Because the man who goes into negotiations saying "if we don't like what you offer, we will not sign" has a better chance of a viable deal than the woman who said "offer me any terms you like, I will sign them".

The EU is very firmly saying "no deal is better than a bad deal", and they have a very strict interpretation of what constitutes a bad deal. If the EU does suffer financially from Brexit, that is their own choice - they could have negotiated a deal, acceptable to both sides, would have meant both sides were better off and the EU could still get the better share of the profit.

[AndrewJB]

So do you think 'no-deal' is close to certain, too?

I'm tempted to wager a decent sum on this, but it's causing a dilemma: unless I'm missing something, this is basically free money. Therefore I must be missing something!

I just can't fathom what it is I'm missing. Perhaps if we agree a trifling deal relating to medicines or something, it no longer qualifies as 'no-deal' according to the bookmakers. Maybe that's it. (Bit harsh if that's it, though.)

I’m not at all a betting man, and regard “free money” with distrust. I’m encouraged by the recent “leaders meeting” about stopping a no deal. I don’t think many people want no deal, and it will be crap (as any kind of abrupt change is), and I’m not the sort of person to wish Ill on others to prove a point.

[nil_desperandum]

Speaking for myself, I wouldn't be happy.
Sorting the backstop has always been secondary to me compared to sticking to those red lines. It would also leave Johnson exposed to Farage, who definitely wouldnt like it.
It's hard to guess which way Johnson will go, the rhetoric is ok, but that doesn't mean hes going to deliver.

Imo no deal, is still better than a bad deal.

Thanks for the response. It's a while since I posed the question, and I was anticipating quite a few replies from all those who voted leave and support Boris. (You're the only one so far).
I happen to agree with you on this. I said at the time that those who were backing Johnson for PM should be careful what they wish for.
He's a deceitful opportunist, (far worse than Cameron in fact), and has no principles and certainly no firm Brexit stance / vision.
His sole reason for supporting "leave" was to get the keys to No. 10.
What he will try to do now is to get the withdrawal agreement through, (you know the one that May proposed, and that HE voted for, but MPs kept rejecting), by getting a minor concession on the backstop and claiming it as the greatest British "victory" since Dunkirk!
I'm certain he personally doesn't favour "no deal" and the chances of him getting it through are slim, and he doesn't have time to negotiate anything substantially different to what May got after 2 and a half years.
I happen to think that the majority of "brexiteers" on here will be pretty unhappy if Johnson does manage to get some change to the backstop, and even though it then might pass through Parliament, it won't satisfy the Brexit Party. So even though he'll want to claim it as a great victory, he will be paralysed in parliament with no majority, and won't be able to call an election for fear of the Brexit Party splitting the Tory vote.

[JohnMcGreal]

That's my worry too. In a sense, the Remainers might help, because as long as the EU thinks no-deal won't happen, they won't concede anything.

After all this time, it's incredible that there are people who still believe that we just need to convince the EU that we really are serious about blowing our own legs off for them to cave in and give us whatever we want.

Threatening to leave with no deal has never been, and never will be a serious negotiating tactic, because everyone in that room, including our own government, knows that it damages us far more than the EU.

Even if we are stupid enough to proceed with it, everyone in that room, including our own government, knows that we'll be in an even weaker position when it comes to negotiating again in the very near future.

So instead of making flimsy excuses for why the 'easiest deal in human history' never materialised, maybe leavers should take some responsibility for the lies and fantasies they've peddled for years.

[summitclaret]

Thanks for the response. It's a while since I posed the question, and I was anticipating quite a few replies from all those who voted leave and support Boris. (You're the only one so far).
I happen to agree with you on this. I said at the time that those who were backing Johnson for PM should be careful what they wish for.
He's a deceitful opportunist, (far worse than Cameron in fact), and has no principles and certainly no firm Brexit stance / vision.
His sole reason for supporting "leave" was to get the keys to No. 10.
What he will try to do now is to get the withdrawal agreement through, (you know the one that May proposed, and that HE voted for, but MPs kept rejecting), by getting a minor concession on the backstop and claiming it as the greatest British "victory" since Dunkirk!
I'm certain he personally doesn't favour "no deal" and the chances of him getting it through are slim, and he doesn't have time to negotiate anything substantially different to what May got after 2 and a half years.
I happen to think that the majority of "brexiteers" on here will be pretty unhappy if Johnson does manage to get some change to the backstop, and even though it then might pass through Parliament, it won't satisfy the Brexit Party. So even though he'll want to claim it as a great victory, he will be paralysed in parliament with no majority, and won't be able to call an election for fear of the Brexit Party splitting the Tory vote.

Lots are missing the key point that a new PD is likely that comes off the fence and says that a FT deal is the aim, not May's vague ******** that was intended to keep us tied to the EU forever. Add to that that a brexiteer and not a remainer would be negotiating phase 2. The above together with something that means we can't be held indefinitely im a trapstop would be enough imo to get a deal thro the HOC because there are enough Labour mps that we it comes to it will vote it through.

[Colburn_Claret]

I’m not at all a betting man, and regard “free money” with distrust. I’m encouraged by the recent “leaders meeting” about stopping a no deal. I don’t think many people want no deal, and it will be crap (as any kind of abrupt change is), and I’m not the sort of person to wish Ill on others to prove a point.

Nobody wants a no deal. Not me, not Boris, not you. Given that we voted to leave, how would you deliver that, if the people you've been dealing with have been encouraged to offer you nothing, by the people sitting behind you.
The hypocrisy of Labour suggesting they'd offer another referendum, a choice between remain or the better deal they would seek. That's called Hobsons choice, everyman and his dog knows that under those circumstances the EU would **** themselves laughing.
The truth, however unpalatable to you, is the only way to get a deal, is to leave without one first. Parliament has caused this mess, by reneging on every promise, every MP made, prior to the referendum.

[Colburn_Claret]

Why do you think Johnson.can do better than May, when the realities are the same and his parliamentary equation is worse? It doesn’t seem like the EU are cracking under the threat of no deal. They might still, but as time goes by and we approach that abrupt change in our lives, it looks more likely that Johnson has chosen a bit of pain for U.K. residents (and the EU). Very different from “we’ll get a great deal”. Let me know when you begin to feel ripped off.

I feel ripped off already, I have for the last 2.5 years, but not by Boris or Leavers. I've been ripped off by TM and a bunch of two faced lying politicians.
Anyone who believed in Brexit, backed by politicians who kept their word, could have got a better deal. Anyone.
Sadly that boats sailed, Boris has been painted into a corner, not of his making. I hope he does whatever it takes to deliver on the referendum. It will be more painful than would have been necessary, not terminal but changes of any sort of this magnitude bring some pain, not just Brexit.

[thatdberight]

Jay Aston of Bucks Fizz to stand as a Brexit candidate at a GE...

I swear most of these things are worked back from the punch line...

Boris, "I want to make a joke about kippers, Ukippers, kippers.. get it? Make up some crap about EU regs"
Boris, "I want to finish a speech with 'Where there's a will, there's a way'. Can we make up something about whey?"
Boris, "I want to push this and tell porky pies about... wait 'til you hear this... pork pies... Don't give me anything... I'll just make it up as I go along"
Nigel, "Is there any gag we can do about 'Making Your Mind Up'?"

[Elizabeth]

I wonder when I read these entrenched views from both sides, and I recognise the strength of feeling, whether anyone has changed their viewpoint since the referendum. I doubt it.
The main thing that I feel is missing is honesty from many remoaning posters and MPs.
I think this is best shown by the declaration that they would argue to the end against no deal being the final outcome. The high ground is taken when the truth is these same individuals simply don't want any deal of any description.
If you don't recognise yourself I genuinely would like to know so I can view your future posts objectively. And even choose to discuss this awful situation with you.

[Greenmile]

I wonder when I read these entrenched views from both sides, and I recognise the strength of feeling, whether anyone has changed their viewpoint since the referendum. I doubt it.
The main thing that I feel is missing is honesty from many remoaning posters and MPs...

Talking of “honesty”, Ringo, you seem to have forgotten that Elizabeth herself is supposed to be someone who has changed her viewpoint since the referendum.

Are we now supposed to believe that she’s doubting her own existence?

[Elizabeth]

Does it really need pointing out that my post is directed at others.
You do seem content on being a ball boy

[aggi]

I wonder when I read these entrenched views from both sides, and I recognise the strength of feeling, whether anyone has changed their viewpoint since the referendum. I doubt it.
The main thing that I feel is missing is honesty from many remoaning posters and MPs.
I think this is best shown by the declaration that they would argue to the end against no deal being the final outcome. The high ground is taken when the truth is these same individuals simply don't want any deal of any description.
If you don't recognise yourself I genuinely would like to know so I can view your future posts objectively. And even choose to discuss this awful situation with you.

Most polls show a shift from leave to remain. Obviously that may not be reflected in voting but it is indicative of sentiment.

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[aggi]

Nobody wants a no deal. Not me, not Boris, not you. Given that we voted to leave, how would you deliver that, if the people you've been dealing with have been encouraged to offer you nothing, by the people sitting behind you.
The hypocrisy of Labour suggesting they'd offer another referendum, a choice between remain or the better deal they would seek. That's called Hobsons choice, everyman and his dog knows that under those circumstances the EU would **** themselves laughing.
The truth, however unpalatable to you, is the only way to get a deal, is to leave without one first. Parliament has caused this mess, by reneging on every promise, every MP made, prior to the referendum.

That may well be a good way of getting a deal but personally I'd say it's the best way to get a bad deal. Hamstringing our economy is going to leave us more desperate for a deal, not negotiating from a position of strength.