Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[Devils_Advocate]

Not my argument sunshine.

Ask teacher tomorrow!







(Dont forget your Peppa Pig lunch box)

I know but as you stuck your oar in and are so informed Im just asking you to help me as a favour. You arent normally so shy in telling everyone how it is

[Swizzlestick]

Weird how Ringo’s insults are very similar to Elizabeth’s.

[AndrewJB]

The issue has split the country and will continue to for a long time. Even if we leave abruptly in two months, the people who passionately oppose leaving aren’t going to suddenly change their minds (especially if they see a negative change to their lives). There is no way the country will unite in a kind of “spirit of the blitz” against any hardships caused by Brexit. And if Brexit is somehow stopped then a lot of people will be similarly angry.

It can’t be said that Remain voters aren’t accepting the referendum result, because the conversation has moved on from whether or not to leave, to how we leave - and how we leave is very much up for discussion. Some people say (for example) that the Norway option “isn’t actually leaving” - but it was up there on plenty of Brexit literature as an option. So as long as you have a hardline Brexit pushed as the goal, then people who don’t want this have a legitimate right to oppose it, and as long as this continues there will be those who look beyond the issue, and hope instead to stop Brexit altogether.

The only vanishing middle ground left is the hope for a deal, but unless the U.K. or EU make a change in position it won’t happen. There is no solution to the Irish border question. If we keep to the terms of the GFA then we have to have a soft border - which goes against our aim of taking back control, and the EUs requirement for a hard border under WTO. No amount of “believing” will fix this, and I think if we just ignore it, it will lead to unforeseen circumstances and issues arising later on.

When we had the referendum I remember thinking: “this is a bit crap” at all the nastiness thrown about, but I had no idea it would get even worse.

[RingoMcCartney]

Weird how Ringo’s insults are very similar to Elizabeth’s.

It's not weird at all. If your a sad sack that gets off on having a parody account it's what you'd do.

[RingoMcCartney]

The issue has split the country and will continue to for a long time. Even if we leave abruptly in two months, the people who passionately oppose leaving aren’t going to suddenly change their minds (especially if they see a negative change to their lives). There is no way the country will unite in a kind of “spirit of the blitz” against any hardships caused by Brexit. And if Brexit is somehow stopped then a lot of people will be similarly angry.

It can’t be said that Remain voters aren’t accepting the referendum result, because the conversation has moved on from whether or not to leave, to how we leave - and how we leave is very much up for discussion. Some people say (for example) that the Norway option “isn’t actually leaving” - but it was up there on plenty of Brexit literature as an option. So as long as you have a hardline Brexit pushed as the goal, then people who don’t want this have a legitimate right to oppose it, and as long as this continues there will be those who look beyond the issue, and hope instead to stop Brexit altogether.

The only vanishing middle ground left is the hope for a deal, but unless the U.K. or EU make a change in position it won’t happen. There is no solution to the Irish border question. If we keep to the terms of the GFA then we have to have a soft border - which goes against our aim of taking back control, and the EUs requirement for a hard border under WTO. No amount of “believing” will fix this, and I think if we just ignore it, it will lead to unforeseen circumstances and issues arising later on.

When we had the referendum I remember thinking: “this is a bit crap” at all the nastiness thrown about, but I had no idea it would get even worse.

It can.

[Devils_Advocate]

It's not weird at all. If your a sad sack that gets off on having a parody account it's what you'd do.

Jeez give yourself a break

[RingoMcCartney]

Jeez give yourself a break

Take your own advice.

[martin_p]

The post was about how the poor voted, not how the country voted. The poor in London having a far larger percentage of migrants or second generation immigrants than the poor outside of London, would look on Brexit completely differently. Hence the difference in the way they voted.

So what about Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle, the Wirral? All voted to remain.

[AndrewJB]

It can.

“...because the conversation has moved on from whether or not we leave, to how we leave.”

[RingoMcCartney]

“...because the conversation has moved on from whether or not we leave, to how we leave.”

That's how remoaners disingenuously now present it.

We all know the reality.

Remoaners now accept the referendum result !

You know, that it's still a lie, even if you believe it, dont you !?


These days, remoaners would be nowhere if they had nobody to be so so democratic at!?

[Elizabeth]

Andrew, unfortunately Ringo has just posted which will fuel the idiots on here who say we are the same person.

You say that remain voters have accepted the referendum result and moved on.
I would agree that that is true of most however untrue for those who have made the implementation very difficult.
Is not about the type of deal for those behind the People's Vote second referendum campaign.
How do you answer my criticism that Remain campaigns like that one started up months before anyone even knew the details of Theresa May's deal. I can't see that as moving on to the details of a deal, can you?

[BennyD]

The point of a govt of National unity is to deliver brexit and get the country moving again, something the Tories have failed to do in over 3 years, and something Johnson claims he wants to do, but is unlikely to achieve before his daft Oct 31st deadline.

I don’t know where to start, but I’ll try; govt of National Unity? Why not go the whole snowflake hog and call it the ‘people’s government’. FFS. Get the country moving again? It’s the potential Govt of National Unity (GNU) that has log jammed the political system for the last 3.5 years so what makes you think they would get things moving? If you haven’t noticed they are actively trying to stop Boris from getting things moving. Of course, the GNU would only want to move things by getting us to remain in the EU by holding a second referendum that they all said would never happen (what happens if leave wins again is never mentioned) or having to settle for a deal made by Brussels which gives us less say in running it but costs us as much or more than it does at present. The only way Johnson can secure a good deal for us is to threaten them with a no deal exit, this has already forced them to start re negotiating. True to form, they say they can only do this if the Oct 31st deadline is extended which, of course, allows their affiliates in Parliament more time to derail Boris and get in a GNU. I can see why you lot think the Oct 31st deadline is daft; it effectively puts a time limit on your attempts at subverting the democratic process.

[AndrewJB]

That's how remoaners disingenuously now present it.

We all know the reality.

Remoaners now accept the referendum result !

You know, that it's still a lie, even if you believe it, dont you !?


These days, remoaners would be nowhere if they had nobody to be so so democratic at!?

You’re not catching the point I’m trying to make. Another way of describing it is that in advocating a more complete break with the EU, the government has given the space to those who can (rightly) say; “this is not the kind of Brexit I want” (and therefore continue to oppose, while accepting the result of the referendum). You can wonder as much as you like as to how honest this position is, however there’s no denying that the government has enabled it by setting out a future relationship that is far more extreme than that promised throughout the campaign itself. And for that we only have the government to blame.

[aggi]

Andrew, unfortunately Ringo has just posted which will fuel the idiots on here who say we are the same person.

You say that remain voters have accepted the referendum result and moved on.
I would agree that that is true of most however untrue for those who have made the implementation very difficult.
Is not about the type of deal for those behind the People's Vote second referendum campaign.
How do you answer my criticism that Remain campaigns like that one started up months before anyone even knew the details of Theresa May's deal. I can't see that as moving on to the details of a deal, can you?

This has already been answered way back in this thread somewhere.

May's deal may not have been announced but the red lines had been which indicated what kind of Brexit we were going for. Understandably a large number of remain voters felt that May's vision was a harder Brexit than a 52:48 split justified so began to campaign against it.

[AndrewJB]

Andrew, unfortunately Ringo has just posted which will fuel the idiots on here who say we are the same person.

You say that remain voters have accepted the referendum result and moved on.
I would agree that that is true of most however untrue for those who have made the implementation very difficult.
Is not about the type of deal for those behind the People's Vote second referendum campaign.
How do you answer my criticism that Remain campaigns like that one started up months before anyone even knew the details of Theresa May's deal. I can't see that as moving on to the details of a deal, can you?

It became quite obvious when May set out her red lines, just what kind of deal we were going to be looking at, and support for a second referendum began to build then. In the beginning, a few people I know who voted Remain said they’d vote leave in a second one, but those people have since changed their tune. One reason is how poorly it’s gone so far, but another is because Leave is increasingly meaning a no deal, and nothing else.

[evensteadiereddie]

Andrew, unfortunately Ringo has just posted which will fuel the idiots on here who say we are the same person.

You say that remain voters have accepted the referendum result and moved on.
I would agree that that is true of most however untrue for those who have made the implementation very difficult.
Is not about the type of deal for those behind the People's Vote second referendum campaign.
How do you answer my criticism that Remain campaigns like that one started up months before anyone even knew the details of Theresa May's deal. I can't see that as moving on to the details of a deal, can you?

[RingoMcCartney]

You’re not catching the point I’m trying to make. Another way of describing it is that in advocating a more complete break with the EU, the government has given the space to those who can (rightly) say; “this is not the kind of Brexit I want” (and therefore continue to oppose, while accepting the result of the referendum). You can wonder as much as you like as to how honest this position is, however there’s no denying that the government has enabled it by setting out a future relationship that is far more extreme than that promised throughout the campaign itself. And for that we only have the government to blame.

I'm not "catching " your point because I fundamentally disagree with your claim that "It can’t be said that Remain voters aren’t accepting the referendum result"

Remoaners claim to want to stop a "no deal " brexit.

Question - if they're being honest, why did the vote down teresa May's deal?

Answer - they dont accept the referendum result and dont want to leave the EU.

Remoaners want a 2nd "confirmatory" referendum, a peoples vote ( because of course, the 2016 referendum only allowed hamsters to vote!). Why?

Answer- they dont accept the referendum result and dont want to leave the EU.

Remoaners want to set up a Peoples Parliament and have a government of "National Unity" that apparently , to which, only remoaners are invited ! Why?

Answer - they feel that Boris is getting close to actually implementing the largest single expression of democracy this nation has ever witnessed and their brazenly, shamelessly usurping the parliament and want to set up a rival, remoaner- only one. Why?

Answer- they dont accept the referendum result and dont want to leave the EU.

A blind man on a galloping horse can see that remoaners simply refuse to accept a very simple fact about democracy.

Democracy - it means sometimes you lose.

[AndrewJB]

I don’t know where to start, but I’ll try; govt of National Unity? Why not go the whole snowflake hog and call it the ‘people’s government’. FFS. Get the country moving again? It’s the potential Govt of National Unity (GNU) that has log jammed the political system for the last 3.5 years so what makes you think they would get things moving? If you haven’t noticed they are actively trying to stop Boris from getting things moving. Of course, the GNU would only want to move things by getting us to remain in the EU by holding a second referendum that they all said would never happen (what happens if leave wins again is never mentioned) or having to settle for a deal made by Brussels which gives us less say in running it but costs us as much or more than it does at present. The only way Johnson can secure a good deal for us is to threaten them with a no deal exit, this has already forced them to start re negotiating. True to form, they say they can only do this if the Oct 31st deadline is extended which, of course, allows their affiliates in Parliament more time to derail Boris and get in a GNU. I can see why you lot think the Oct 31st deadline is daft; it effectively puts a time limit on your attempts at subverting the democratic process.

It doesn’t take long for revisionism to kick in. For the vast majority of the time since the referendum, most MPs have had very little influence on any of this. Remind me again when May invited opposition MPs to have their say?

And as for “needing to be able to threaten a no deal exit in order to get a good deal” - this has been shown to be patent bollx for so long now I can’t believe anyone has the shame to repeat it. If I’m in a negotiation with someone who says “if you don’t give me a better deal, I’m going to take actions that will harm me more than you” - then I wouldn’t back down, unless I worked for Samaritans.

I don’t believe anyone in the government believes this. They just want to take us out without a deal. They are rich enough not to care, and sly enough to see the resulting chaos as a good time to slip through laws we wouldn’t ordinarily accept.

[AndrewJB]

I'm not "catching " your point because I fundamentally disagree with your claim that "It can’t be said that Remain voters aren’t accepting the referendum result"

Remoaners claim to want to stop a "no deal " brexit.

Question - if they're being honest, why did the vote down teresa May's deal?

Answer - they dont accept the referendum result and dont want to leave the EU.

Remoaners want a 2nd "confirmatory" referendum, a peoples vote ( because of course, the 2016 referendum only allowed hamsters to vote!). Why?

Answer- they dont accept the referendum result and dont want to leave the EU.

Remoaners want to set up a Peoples Parliament and have a government of "National Unity" that apparently , to which, only remoaners are invited ! Why?

Answer - they feel that Boris is getting close to actually implementing the largest single expression of democracy this nation has ever witnessed and their brazenly, shamelessly usurping the parliament and want to set up a rival, remoaner- only one. Why?

Answer- they dont accept the referendum result and dont want to leave the EU.

A blind man on a galloping horse can see that remoaners simply refuse to accept a very simple fact about democracy.

Democracy - it means sometimes you lose.

It might be that remainers want to stop Brexit (that might be their ultimate aim), however the government has legitimised their position of opposing a no deal Brexit by aiming for that very thing. As a great many MPs have shown, it’s possible to oppose a no deal, but support Brexit.

As for all the rubbish of “they voted the deal down” - it was a combination of leavers and remainers who both supported and defeated those bills. It’s far more nuanced than leave or remain.

[Colburn_Claret]

The issue has split the country and will continue to for a long time. Even if we leave abruptly in two months, the people who passionately oppose leaving aren’t going to suddenly change their minds (especially if they see a negative change to their lives). There is no way the country will unite in a kind of “spirit of the blitz” against any hardships caused by Brexit. And if Brexit is somehow stopped then a lot of people will be similarly angry.

It can’t be said that Remain voters aren’t accepting the referendum result, because the conversation has moved on from whether or not to leave, to how we leave - and how we leave is very much up for discussion. Some people say (for example) that the Norway option “isn’t actually leaving” - but it was up there on plenty of Brexit literature as an option. So as long as you have a hardline Brexit pushed as the goal, then people who don’t want this have a legitimate right to oppose it, and as long as this continues there will be those who look beyond the issue, and hope instead to stop Brexit altogether.

The only vanishing middle ground left is the hope for a deal, but unless the U.K. or EU make a change in position it won’t happen. There is no solution to the Irish border question. If we keep to the terms of the GFA then we have to have a soft border - which goes against our aim of taking back control, and the EUs requirement for a hard border under WTO. No amount of “believing” will fix this, and I think if we just ignore it, it will lead to unforeseen circumstances and issues arising later on.

When we had the referendum I remember thinking: “this is a bit crap” at all the nastiness thrown about, but I had no idea it would get even worse.

Not much wrong with that, but if the only issue is what deal we are leaving on, why arent the HOC, and people like yourself, supporting Boris to get a good deal, instead of putting obstacles in the way of a deal.

[JohnMcGreal]

Not much wrong with that, but if the only issue is what deal we are leaving on, why arent the HOC, and people like yourself, supporting Boris to get a good deal, instead of putting obstacles in the way of a deal.

If you genuinely want Johnson to negotiate a good deal with the EU, do you not think it's a bit unfair that he only has a couple of months to achieve this? His predecessor had two full years to negotiate the current Withdrawal Agreement, yet Johnson is expected to negotiate something even better in a matter of weeks?

Maybe you should support a two year extension, or even the revocation of Article 50, so that Johnson (or whoever else becomes PM) can have two full years to try and negotiate something better than the current WA and something better than full membership?

Just a thought.

[Colburn_Claret]

I don’t know where to start, but I’ll try; govt of National Unity? Why not go the whole snowflake hog and call it the ‘people’s government’. FFS. Get the country moving again? It’s the potential Govt of National Unity (GNU) that has log jammed the political system for the last 3.5 years so what makes you think they would get things moving? If you haven’t noticed they are actively trying to stop Boris from getting things moving. Of course, the GNU would only want to move things by getting us to remain in the EU by holding a second referendum that they all said would never happen (what happens if leave wins again is never mentioned) or having to settle for a deal made by Brussels which gives us less say in running it but costs us as much or more than it does at present. The only way Johnson can secure a good deal for us is to threaten them with a no deal exit, this has already forced them to start re negotiating. True to form, they say they can only do this if the Oct 31st deadline is extended which, of course, allows their affiliates in Parliament more time to derail Boris and get in a GNU. I can see why you lot think the Oct 31st deadline is daft; it effectively puts a time limit on your attempts at subverting the democratic process.

You forgot to add that Boris's daft 31st Oct deadline, was actually set by Parliament, and confirmed by the EU as the last time it will be delayed.
How that is Boris's daft fault is hilarious.
It's also funny how the EU, who are adamant that they wont budge on a new deal, are now seeking to delay leaving even further, when they were just as adamant that that wouldnt be extended.

Common sense has always said, that when it comes to the nub, a deal will be made. So come on Remainers, if you say that's what you want, support Boris in his efforts, instead of blocking the streets of London with the pathetic whinging.

[Devils_Advocate]

Not much wrong with that, but if the only issue is what deal we are leaving on, why arent the HOC, and people like yourself, supporting Boris to get a good deal, instead of putting obstacles in the way of a deal.

Still waiting for you to explain to me how all those migrants in London managed to vote in the referendum?

[RingoMcCartney]

It might be that remainers want to stop Brexit (that might be their ultimate aim), however the government has legitimised their position of opposing a no deal Brexit by aiming for that very thing. As a great many MPs have shown, it’s possible to oppose a no deal, but support Brexit.

As for all the rubbish of “they voted the deal down” - it was a combination of leavers and remainers who both supported and defeated those bills. It’s far more nuanced than leave or remain.

"Remainers "might" want to stop Brexit "! Come on Andrew! Might!?

"Rubbish they voted it down"

Who's rewriting history now?

Did these MPs, who are now trying to actually stop Brexit, by claiming they only want to only stop a "no deal" brexit. Vote down teresa May's deal, which would have prevented a "no deal" and given them what they, disingenuously, claim they want?

Yes or No?

On the last of the 3 votes on Teresa May's deal. Did boris Johnson and Jacob Rees mogg actually for it.? Therefore, actually voting for a deal.

Yes or No?

Once you've given me your yes or no answers. You may want to reconsider your claim that "the government has legitimized their position of opposing a no deal brexit"

Actions speak louder than words. And those accusing Boris of wanting a no deal brexit, despite him voting for May's deal. Are the very ones who rejected the deal 3 times!!

It's the mutton headed refusal to accept anything that resembles leaving the EU, and using anything they possibly can to prevent it happening . That has become a self fulfilling prophecy by remoaners who simply cannot accept the largest single expression of democracy this nation has ever witnessed.

[claret_in_exile]

Ringo's right about this, to be fair. The Remainers have been attempting to force a second referendum since the original vote. Theresa May's deal was the best they were ever going to get and still they voted it down. It's dishonest trying to claim that they were accepting of the 2016 result because the only way there was going to be a "soft" Brexit was by passing May's proposals.

That's clearly not on the table now - with Boris proroguing Parliament, he's clearly planning on a "hard" Brexit.

I speak as someone who is strongly opposed to Brexit, but I'm more strongly opposed to ignoring the result of a legitimate vote. Vox populi, vox dei.

[Colburn_Claret]

You’re not catching the point I’m trying to make. Another way of describing it is that in advocating a more complete break with the EU, the government has given the space to those who can (rightly) say; “this is not the kind of Brexit I want” (and therefore continue to oppose, while accepting the result of the referendum). You can wonder as much as you like as to how honest this position is, however there’s no denying that the government has enabled it by setting out a future relationship that is far more extreme than that promised throughout the campaign itself. And for that we only have the government to blame.

No, no, no. It's you who arent seeing the facts.
A.We arent, and never were advocating a break from Europe just a break from Brussels.
B. Remainers who claim, this isnt the kind of Brexit I want dont want any kind of Brexit. Full stop.
C. Nobody knows what the future relationship will be, because we haven't negotiated a deal yet. How do you know it's far more extreme than that promised, when you continue to try and usurp any negotiations.
D. You can certainly blame May's government for loads of things, but she's gone. The only people you can blame now are those MPs in the house, contemplating overthrowing Boris, to hijack any deal good or bad.

If you were honest, you should be on our side arguing to get the country behind Boris, because it's a certainty that the better the country try get behind Boris, the better the deal he can get.
Self fulfilling prophets of doom.
I said to Lancs yesterday, project fear has moved on from making wild prophecies of doom and gloom, to trying to create positions of doom and gloom.
If you are being honest you should be ashamed of them.

[RingoMcCartney]

A 2nd referendum-

The 2016 referendum result was Leave. That result has still not been implemented.

If there was another Peoples Vote, it means that for my viewpoint to actually be implemented, Leave would have to had won TWO referenda. Where as Remain would only have had to have won ONE, to have its viewpoint implemented.

How is that either fair or democratic?

[Spijed]

I said to Lancs yesterday, project fear has moved on from making wild prophecies of doom and gloom, to trying to create positions of doom and gloom.

You mean like Turkey joining the EU?

What a big fat lie that was!

[Colburn_Claret]

It might be that remainers want to stop Brexit (that might be their ultimate aim), however the government has legitimised their position of opposing a no deal Brexit by aiming for that very thing. As a great many MPs have shown, it’s possible to oppose a no deal, but support Brexit.

As for all the rubbish of “they voted the deal down” - it was a combination of leavers and remainers who both supported and defeated those bills. It’s far more nuanced than leave or remain.

Do you live in supported living. Most people have a modicum of bias, even if unintentionally, but you are so far in the dark you must be growing mushrooms. You see the news, read the papers converse on this board and you still haven't a clue what is happening here.

BORIS wants a deal.

Remainers CLAIM they wont accept a no deal, then do everything they can to prevent Boris from getting a deal. A blind man in a coal mine can see this isnt designed to get a deal, it's designed to reverse the referendum and remain. Do you still not see, that even the greatest deal ever imaginable, is still going to be turned down by these remainers, claiming they never voted to leave with no deal is a crock of **** to disguise the real objective.


It's a lesson they've taken from the EU. If you lose a vote, reword it and vote again, and again, and again until you get the result you want. So as I said whatever deal Boris gets, something will be picked on to create a diversion, until they get another vote.

If they got their way and we had a second referendum, and leave won again, they still wouldnt go away. They are fanatics.

[AndrewJB]

You forgot to add that Boris's daft 31st Oct deadline, was actually set by Parliament, and confirmed by the EU as the last time it will be delayed.
How that is Boris's daft fault is hilarious.
It's also funny how the EU, who are adamant that they wont budge on a new deal, are now seeking to delay leaving even further, when they were just as adamant that that wouldnt be extended.

Common sense has always said, that when it comes to the nub, a deal will be made. So come on Remainers, if you say that's what you want, support Boris in his efforts, instead of blocking the streets of London with the pathetic whinging.

I think more remainers would come on side if the deal Johnson struck involved closer ties to Europe. You say now that a Norway style deal is not acceptable (though I say it is) but during the referendum many leavers touted it as a viable option. Between the end of the referendum and when only leaving everything to do with the EU became the leaver position, don’t you see how far the leave position travelled away from the things it said during the referendum? If leavers had just said: “in three years we’ll be on the verge of leaving with no deal” - you would have lost. So leave owes it to everyone to actually canvas the country and see how we want to leave, and leaving with no deal is not going to win much support. You say a Norway option isn’t good enough for you, but if that’s what the public want, well you just have to accept it. A Norway option isn’t good enough for me, but if its what the public want then what more can I say?

So no, I’m not going to get behind Johnson, because he’s trying to achieve the impossible. The Irish border problem can not be solved while we turn our backs on a more sensible customs / market arrangement. Johnson can at best repackage Mays deal, and for the alternative to just be no deal - well you can understand why people are angry. What a stupid cul de sac to take us down. And while leavers are obstinate about this kind of hard Brexit, support for not leaving at all will grow.

[AndrewJB]

Ringo's right about this, to be fair. The Remainers have been attempting to force a second referendum since the original vote. Theresa May's deal was the best they were ever going to get and still they voted it down. It's dishonest trying to claim that they were accepting of the 2016 result because the only way there was going to be a "soft" Brexit was by passing May's proposals.

That's clearly not on the table now - with Boris proroguing Parliament, he's clearly planning on a "hard" Brexit.

I speak as someone who is strongly opposed to Brexit, but I'm more strongly opposed to ignoring the result of a legitimate vote. Vox populi, vox dei.

May’s deal was not at all the best leaving scenario we could have had. Leaving the EU but staying in the customs union, and single market would have meant we’d be out right now with only the slightest of economic hiccups along the way. There are probably half a dozen other scenarios - all less extreme than the position adopted by our government, and this illustrates how much better a deal could have been. Of course with any of these scenarios there would have been some people not happy and continuing to protest, but far fewer and less vociferous than the opposition to it now.

And I agree that Johnson either wants, or is unconcerned about getting no deal. Johnson is like a snake. The article penned about Gordon Brown having no legitimacy, and blithely taking power the same way; prorogue parliament for political ends (just as Harper did); and threatening deselection for Tory MPs who vote against the government when his own cabinet is full of serial offenders. In the service of the greater self.

[Elizabeth]

I think some posters are downplaying the role of people , groups, MPs and others whose sole intention since the referendum has been to overturn the result.

[AndrewJB]

No, no, no. It's you who arent seeing the facts.
A.We arent, and never were advocating a break from Europe just a break from Brussels.
B. Remainers who claim, this isnt the kind of Brexit I want dont want any kind of Brexit. Full stop.
C. Nobody knows what the future relationship will be, because we haven't negotiated a deal yet. How do you know it's far more extreme than that promised, when you continue to try and usurp any negotiations.
D. You can certainly blame May's government for loads of things, but she's gone. The only people you can blame now are those MPs in the house, contemplating overthrowing Boris, to hijack any deal good or bad.

If you were honest, you should be on our side arguing to get the country behind Boris, because it's a certainty that the better the country try get behind Boris, the better the deal he can get.
Self fulfilling prophets of doom.
I said to Lancs yesterday, project fear has moved on from making wild prophecies of doom and gloom, to trying to create positions of doom and gloom.
If you are being honest you should be ashamed of them.

A. Leaving without a deal means leaving everything. You’ve said it yourself. Leaving with a May style deal means we have free trade yet to negotiate with a two year time limit (which will work in the EUs favour, because they can better absorb trade loss than us, and will therefore be able to get more concessions out of us as the clock ticks down). Leaving the EU but staying in everything else (or something similar) will command more support, give us an immediate free trade deal, and keep us in the areas of cooperation.

B.Not by any means all of them. Among MPs a majority are against no deal because they fear it could be terrible for our country, but there are a lot who also oppose a second referendum, and want to see a softer Brexit implemented.

C. We would know what the future relationship would be if we just left the EU and nothing else. The more we cut our ties with the EU (like leaving things like the the CU, etc), then the more uncertainty we introduce. The more uncertainty we introduce, the more likely we’ll see negative outcomes from that uncertainty. A no deal will bring our relationship with the EU to an all time low. This is a fact, because whatever our relationship has been like in the past, it has never gone from one point to a very negative other point overnight before. Based on these things, while we can’t see the future in this scenario, we can accurately predict it will be less good than now. A good future relationship will be far harder to hammer out in these circumstances than in more good natured ones. And nobody is getting in the way of negotiations. That’s just Johnson getting his excuses in beforehand. The facts remain that his position and that of the EU are too far apart. Nothing more.

D. I blame Cameron first and foremost, then May and her government; and now the Johnson clown show. Nobody else has had anything other than periphery participation to take any blame. Cameron’s ruinous austerity, as well as his purely partisan referendum. May’s refusal to engage with the world outside her own party, even after she lost her majority. And Johnson setting appalling parliamentary precedents (you won’t like it, but then won’t be able to complain if another government behaves the same way).

[evensteadiereddie]

I think some posters are downplaying the role of people , groups, MPs and others whose sole intention since the referendum has been to overturn the result.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

You mean like Turkey joining the EU?

What a big fat lie that was!

Was it?

They only suspended negotiations for Turkey to join the EU earlier this year because Erdogan? is clearly batshit mental.
Negotiations have been ongoing for a long long time though.

https://www.thenewfederalist.eu/turkish ... ere-are-we" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[martin_p]

Was it?

They only suspended negotiations for Turkey to join the EU earlier this year because Erdogan? is clearly batshit mental.
Negotiations have been ongoing for a long long time though.

https://www.thenewfederalist.eu/turkish ... ere-are-we" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes it was a big fat lie. The reason the negotiations were suspended is that 30 years after applying Turkey were still a million miles away from being allowed in. As your link says:

‘What’s more, this March the European Parliament voted in favour of suspending the negotiations and Turkey’s bid to join the EU. After 30 years of stagnation, Europe’s leaders clearly do not want Turkey to join the EU.‘

[AndrewJB]

I think some posters are downplaying the role of people , groups, MPs and others whose sole intention since the referendum has been to overturn the result.

Name and shame them. They will all be people who have not had their hands on the levers of power during this entire process.

What shouldn't be downplayed in all of this is how leave went from; "should we do Norway plus, or Canada plus plus, or a kind of Switzerland version...?" to; "we are leaving on the 31st October, with or without a deal" (which, given what we know is probably without). That's a massive shift, and it should come as no surprise to anyone how opposition to this has grown stronger and angrier.

For comparison's sake, here's the Conservative Party Manifesto governing Brexit from two years ago: https://www.conservatives.com/brexitplan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Reading it now, it looks hopelessly naive and unrealistic, but when you consider what they campaigned on in an election (and I don't recall many saying back then it was impractical), you can see how quickly the promises made by leave just evaporated on contact with reality. And also you can see that as our negotiators continually failed to achieve goals, the Tory Party pushed them into an ever more extreme brexit position (rather than saying; "you know what? This isn't working as planned"). That is the real scandal.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Yes it was a big fat lie. The reason the negotiations were suspended is that 30 years after applying Turkey were still a million miles away from being allowed in. As your link says:

‘What’s more, this March the European Parliament voted in favour of suspending the negotiations and Turkey’s bid to join the EU. After 30 years of stagnation, Europe’s leaders clearly do not want Turkey to join the EU.‘

You honestly think the EU would waste 30 years negotiating instead of just saying no?

[martin_p]

You honestly think the EU would waste 30 years negotiating instead of just saying no?

I honestly think for the last five years (at least) the writing has been on the wall, Turkey has been as far a way as ever as was pointed out when Farage and co were claiming we were about to be awash with Turkish immigrants.

[martin_p]

Name and shame them. They will all be people who have not had their hands on the levers of power during this entire process.

What shouldn't be downplayed in all of this is how leave went from; "should we do Norway plus, or Canada plus plus, or a kind of Switzerland version...?" to; "we are leaving on the 31st October, with or without a deal" (which, given what we know is probably without). That's a massive shift, and it should come as no surprise to anyone how opposition to this has grown stronger and angrier.

For comparison's sake, here's the Conservative Party Manifesto governing Brexit from two years ago: https://www.conservatives.com/brexitplan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Reading it now, it looks hopelessly naive and unrealistic, but when you consider what they campaigned on in an election (and I don't recall many saying back then it was impractical), you can see how quickly the promises made by leave just evaporated on contact with reality. And also you can see that as our negotiators continually failed to achieve goals, the Tory Party pushed them into an ever more extreme brexit position (rather than saying; "you know what? This isn't working as planned"). That is the real scandal.

And it’s not just the Tory party. A significant number of Leavers, both politicians and people on here, have watched Brexit play out in a way they were told was part of ‘project fear’ and then claim it was what they’ve wanted from the start. Some very short memories.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I honestly think for the last five years (at least) the writing has been on the wall, Turkey has been as far a way as ever as was pointed out when Farage and co were claiming we were about to be awash with Turkish immigrants.

If Turkey became more moderate then it could happen, but it won't

[claret_in_exile]

Turkey is a long way off joining the EU. There's the Cyprus thing, the Greece thing, the death penalty, human rights violations (especially of the Kurds) and their entire judicial system.

Of the 35 chapters that need to be completed to join the EU, they have only completed 1 and that's after 14 years of negotiation.

Kosovo is closer to EU membership and 5 out of the 28 EU countries don't recognize it as a country.

Germany REALLY wants access to the Turkish market, whereas France and the UK want no part of Turkey joining the EU.

[AndrewJB]

If Turkey became more moderate then it could happen, but it won't

Turkey was only recognised as a candidate for EU membership in '99 (after they agreed to align themselves with the principles of the EU). Capital punishment (for example) was abolished completely in 2005 (last used in 1984). To put this into perspective, the UK abolished capital punishment completely in 1998 (for non civilian crimes). So they weren't far behind us in that. See the link below for the meat and potatoes of the issue:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession ... ber%202005" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Obviously things have gone south as to the project, but then the EU has fairly rigorous standards when it comes to membership (which surely is a good thing?). If Turkey were to have met the standards of EU membership, then them joining wouldn't have been a bad thing (as probably the same caveats around the 2005 accession would also have been in place).

In 2016 I think we can all agree - given the standards of membership weren't close to being met - that the statement that "Turkey was about to join" was a complete load of bullshit.

[BennyD]

It doesn’t take long for revisionism to kick in. For the vast majority of the time since the referendum, most MPs have had very little influence on any of this. Remind me again when May invited opposition MPs to have their say?

And as for “needing to be able to threaten a no deal exit in order to get a good deal” - this has been shown to be patent bollx for so long now I can’t believe anyone has the shame to repeat it. If I’m in a negotiation with someone who says “if you don’t give me a better deal, I’m going to take actions that will harm me more than you” - then I wouldn’t back down, unless I worked for Samaritans.

I don’t believe anyone in the government believes this. They just want to take us out without a deal. They are rich enough not to care, and sly enough to see the resulting chaos as a good time to slip through laws we wouldn’t ordinarily accept.

Another revisionist, so let me respond; since the referendum MPs have always held the whip hand: how many votes have there been? The results of these votes have stymied progress on every level. Just to remind you, May actively approached all MPs as to why her deal was the best we could achieve, especially ahead of the THIRD failed vote.

Whoever showed you it was patent bollx (sic) was talking bollx and your analogy was as daft as you. Please let me rephrase; If I don't get a better deal I will withhold £39billion and it will bollx your economy more than our’s because you are heading into recession and you desperately need it. Btw, If you worked for the Samaritans, people would most probably top themselves rather than listen to your bollx so please don’t volunteer.

This government do want to leave with a deal but experience has shown we need to wield a big stick to get the deal we want, and the threat of leaving with no deal is the biggest stick we have. If you can’t/won’t see that you must be just another ******* and whatever I post will fall on thick ears.

[Spijed]

Michael Gove accused of lying regarding food supplies:
https://www.ft.com/content/b613ba6e-ccb ... 4456540ea6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Spijed]

Michael Gove accused of lying regarding food supplies:

(Paywall)
https://www.ft.com/content/b613ba6e-ccb ... 4456540ea6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49545139" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[TheFamilyCat]

Funnily enough, when Michael Gove announced there would not be food shortages I felt compelled to go to Aldi and fill a transit van.

[BennyD]

Michael Gove accused of lying regarding food supplies:

(Paywall)
https://www.ft.com/content/b613ba6e-ccb ... 4456540ea6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49545139" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The problem with all this leaked info regarding shortages, is that most of it has been leaked by remainers and then taken out of context. If you don’t prepare for the worst case, it will be THE worst case if it happens. Therefore the theoretical, food medicine, fuel, HRT drug shortages are just that; theoretical. There are many deals already in place and it won’t take long to get other deals in place with either the EU, the US or anybody else WE choose to have a deal with. The world won’t end and all our present trading partners will still want to take our money despite what the EU says. Remember, if the EU doesn’t trade with us their recession will happen sooner and be harder and they really, really don’t want that.

[martin_p]

Another revisionist, so let me respond; since the referendum MPs have always held the whip hand: how many votes have there been? The results of these votes have stymied progress on every level. Just to remind you, May actively approached all MPs as to why her deal was the best we could achieve, especially ahead of the THIRD failed vote.

Whoever showed you it was patent bollx (sic) was talking bollx and your analogy was as daft as you. Please let me rephrase; If I don't get a better deal I will withhold £39billion and it will bollx your economy more than our’s because you are heading into recession and you desperately need it. Btw, If you worked for the Samaritans, people would most probably top themselves rather than listen to your bollx so please don’t volunteer.

This government do want to leave with a deal but experience has shown we need to wield a big stick to get the deal we want, and the threat of leaving with no deal is the biggest stick we have. If you can’t/won’t see that you must be just another ******* and whatever I post will fall on thick ears.

What experience? When has this ‘big stick’ approach been successful? You do realise that the EU has been fully prepared for no deal for over six months now don’t you?

[martin_p]

The problem with all this leaked info regarding shortages, is that most of it has been leaked by remainers and then taken out of context. If you don’t prepare for the worst case, it will be THE worst case if it happens. Therefore the theoretical, food medicine, fuel, HRT drug shortages are just that; theoretical. There are many deals already in place and it won’t take long to get other deals in place with either the EU, the US or anybody else WE choose to have a deal with. The world won’t end and all our present trading partners will still want to take our money despite what the EU says. Remember, if the EU doesn’t trade with us their recession will happen sooner and be harder and they really, really don’t want that.

Which deals are in place other than the ones to keep planes flying to Europe?