Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
Spijed
Posts: 17112
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 2892 times
Has Liked: 1294 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:20 am

dsr wrote:It depends on a lot more than just that!

My (possibly optimistic) view is that, as long as Farage can be kept onside, it will be a comfortable victory for Boris whenever the election happens. The reason being that he has a positive message of "we know what we're doing and it's going to work" while the Remain side has a negative message of "we don't know what we're doing, let's extend Brexit so we can continue the farce". Die hard leavers and remainers won't be swayed; the don't-care-all-that-much people will definitely swing towards the Tories on that one.
Hasn't Nigel Farage said that he'll only work with Boris if he leaves the EU with no deal, and nothing else?

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:30 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:My first post for a month on a politics thread, for once it seems something new may be happening.

I generally agree with this post and the post it replied to.

The only context I would add is when we talk about “the future of the next few generations”, for a true Brexit believer that is exactly what they are thinking of, and thinking it would be better outside the EU. It may feel to Remain voters that our children’s hopes would be up in the air, but many of us believe that is true anyway - the status quo is unaffordable houses, stagnant wages, disappearing final salary pensions, eroding national boundaries / sovereignty, fragmenting local communities, a disappearing British cultural identity, terrible transport infrastructure and prioritisation of an individual’s rights over responsibilities. All that lot is even before we get to macro issues like whole towns and regions being left behind. Much of it cannot be solved within the EU.

I’ve just spent over 3 weeks in California (all four corners of it) and the difference to the UK is stark. They have some issues but there was a strong national cultural identity, migrants (mainly Hispanics) seemed well integrated, people seemed happy and reasonably healthy, I hardly heard anyone moaning (despite a President in post they despise). I even roasted some of their famous chlorinated chicken - it was delicious.

So when I think of “the future of the next few generations” I would like us to be more like coastal America, just without the gun (and cannabis, which was disgusting) elements. I have a very clear view as to how we need to evolve, and that is why I back Boris in sacking, then deselecting, rebel MPs on this one issue. Due to the risk the plotters will stop Brexit and ruin our children’s futures, Boris has to get it done without a day’s further delay, no matter the short term problems which we have had 3 years to mitigate.

p.s. anyone wanting us to be more European instead of American, that’s your choice and I respect that, all I would ask is to receive the same courtesy.
Now this is what I don't understand. You have a list of issues (some which I agree with, some which I don't but that's by the by) and say they can't be solved within the EU. How is membership of the EU stopping us resolving unaffordable houses or poor transport infrastructure. Is it really the EU causing whole towns and regions to be left behind? If so, how?

You see the EU being blamed for a lot of stuff but when it comes down to the brass tacks it turns out to be the UK's, not the EU's, responsibility (e.g. see Colburn's comments on wanting to leave the EU to stop jobless immigrants claiming welfare. That's all down to the UK to enforce).

I've got to say my experience of California didn't mirror yours. My abiding memory was the big groups of hispanic workers hanging around street corners hoping to be picked up for a day's work. I remember talking to a few business owners who said how great having this was as it meant they didn't have to pay holidays, offer healthcare, etc. A Peurto Rican accountant I worked with told me how since Trump came in she always had to make a point of telling people that she was Peurto Rican rather than Hispanic as the discrimination and abuse had got far worse.

I also assume you didn't go to LA. I've travelled a lot but it was one of the few cities I've felt fearful walking around once you got off the main strip, the place is horrible. Or San Francisco and the huge amounts of homeless people there.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:33 am

BennyD wrote:The EU said it. They said they weren’t going to keep extending the deadline if things weren’t progressing in Westminster.
They said that last time too.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:35 am

dsr wrote:He didn't bring down the government. Also May was a very very weak PM.
Besides, the ‘rebels’ are the ones actually trying to deliver what was promised in the last Tory manifesto, a smooth and orderly exit, a Brexit with a deal. All of them voted for the WA, the only thing they have consistently tried to stop is no deal. It’s actually Johnson and his cronies that are out of kilter with their manifesto!

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:26 am

dsr wrote:I doubt he would need to deselect them. These MPs stood in 2015 on a platform of a referendum about Brexit, they voted to accept the result of the referendum, and they stood again in 2017 on a platform of leaving the EU. And now they're doing all they can to keep us in. That's a pretty hypocritical approach anyway, but even they surely couldn't vote to bring down the government and then expect to stand again on a policy of supporting the referendum and Brexit.

It's a normal thing that MPs who vote to bring down their own government get the whip withdrawn from them. They'll all have to resign on their fat pensions and £80k tax free payoffs, or else stand as independents (and if they lose, still collect the fat pension and £80k tax-free payoffs).
This was the official manifesto the Tory mps ran under in 2017.
https://www.conservatives.com/brexitplan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They failed to deliver this, and now Johnson is threatening to break his own manifesto pledge, and deselect MPs who refuse to go with him. Good luck with that.

Can you imagine if Corbyn suspended Parliament, and rammed through unpopular legislation by threatening his own MPs? The hard right media would go into meltdown. Now Johnson has established a precedent, unless we get it legislated against someone will do it again.

dsr
Posts: 15132
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 4548 times
Has Liked: 2241 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:52 am

AndrewJB wrote:This was the official manifesto the Tory mps ran under in 2017.
https://www.conservatives.com/brexitplan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They failed to deliver this, and now Johnson is threatening to break his own manifesto pledge, and deselect MPs who refuse to go with him. Good luck with that.

Can you imagine if Corbyn suspended Parliament, and rammed through unpopular legislation by threatening his own MPs? The hard right media would go into meltdown. Now Johnson has established a precedent, unless we get it legislated against someone will do it again.
This was the manifesto.

https://www.conservatives.com/manifesto" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The promise was "to get the best Brexit deal for our country and its people". You can certainly argue that the best deal possible is no deal. I don't really see how you can argue that not getting Brexit at all is the only possible interpretation of the "next best" result.

It is standard practice that if an MP brings down his own government, he can't then stand as a supporter of his own government. How could he possibly? I dare say hypocrisy is in vogue (just ask Philip Pullman!), but surely not to that extent.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:18 pm

dsr wrote:This was the manifesto.

https://www.conservatives.com/manifesto" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The promise was "to get the best Brexit deal for our country and its people". You can certainly argue that the best deal possible is no deal. I don't really see how you can argue that not getting Brexit at all is the only possible interpretation of the "next best" result.

It is standard practice that if an MP brings down his own government, he can't then stand as a supporter of his own government. How could he possibly? I dare say hypocrisy is in vogue (just ask Philip Pullman!), but surely not to that extent.
How are they ‘bringing down the government’ by opposing no deal?

dsr
Posts: 15132
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 4548 times
Has Liked: 2241 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:30 pm

martin_p wrote:How are they ‘bringing down the government’ by opposing no deal?
If a government defeat in the House is so fundamental that the government can't do its job, then its only remaining option is to resign and call a general election. (Still not sure how the 5-year parliament rule applies to this, though.)

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:31 pm

dsr wrote:This was the manifesto.

https://www.conservatives.com/manifesto" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The promise was "to get the best Brexit deal for our country and its people". You can certainly argue that the best deal possible is no deal.
You can also argue that having no deal isn’t having a deal. You can also argue that no deal isn’t the smooth and orderly exit that was promised. So accusations that the ‘rebels’ are breaking Tory manifesto promises by opposing no deal don’t really stack up.

dsr
Posts: 15132
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 4548 times
Has Liked: 2241 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:35 pm

martin_p wrote:You can also argue that having no deal isn’t having a deal. You can also argue that no deal isn’t the smooth and orderly exit that was promised. So accusations that the ‘rebels’ are breaking Tory manifesto promises by opposing no deal don’t really stack up.
I suppose it depends whether or not you believe that May was speaking on behalf of the EU as well as herself.

If you genuinely think that the promise "we will have Brexit in an orderly manner" is not contradicted by saying "we will not have Brexit", then we will just have to disagree.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:36 pm

dsr wrote:I suppose it depends whether or not you believe that May was speaking on behalf of the EU as well as herself.

If you genuinely think that the promise "we will have Brexit in an orderly manner" is not contradicted by saying "we will not have Brexit", then we will just have to disagree.
Which of the rebels is saying that?

dsr
Posts: 15132
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 4548 times
Has Liked: 2241 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:53 pm

martin_p wrote:Which of the rebels is saying that?
They aren't saying that, of course. Just like Owen Coyle never actually said that he would leave Burnley for Bolton, even though most of us knew he would by that stage.

What the Remainers are saying is that we won't leave with no deal, we won't leave with the EU's deal, and we will work for a second referendum. Some of them are saying that they will rig the referendum so they can't lose either way, some of them are saying they will ignore the second referendum result as well unless it gives the result they want.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:23 pm

dsr wrote:They aren't saying that, of course. Just like Owen Coyle never actually said that he would leave Burnley for Bolton, even though most of us knew he would by that stage.

What the Remainers are saying is that we won't leave with no deal, we won't leave with the EU's deal, and we will work for a second referendum. Some of them are saying that they will rig the referendum so they can't lose either way, some of them are saying they will ignore the second referendum result as well unless it gives the result they want.
With a few exceptions the ‘rebels’ voted to leave the EU under the current Withdrawal Agreement, so you can’t really accuse them of not wanting a deal.

dsr
Posts: 15132
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 4548 times
Has Liked: 2241 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:35 pm

martin_p wrote:With a few exceptions the ‘rebels’ voted to leave the EU under the current Withdrawal Agreement, so you can’t really accuse them of not wanting a deal.
The vast majority of the Remainers voted against the agreement every time. There is more to this Remain campaign than the dissident Tories - there is Labour, Liberal, SNP, etc. as well.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:47 pm

dsr wrote:The vast majority of the Remainers voted against the agreement every time. There is more to this Remain campaign than the dissident Tories - there is Labour, Liberal, SNP, etc. as well.
Not in the Tory party they didn’t and that’s why we’re talking about here, your claim that the Tories who want to stop no deal have somehow betrayed a manifesto promise.
Last edited by martin_p on Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:59 pm

dsr wrote:This was the manifesto.

https://www.conservatives.com/manifesto" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The promise was "to get the best Brexit deal for our country and its people". You can certainly argue that the best deal possible is no deal. I don't really see how you can argue that not getting Brexit at all is the only possible interpretation of the "next best" result.

It is standard practice that if an MP brings down his own government, he can't then stand as a supporter of his own government. How could he possibly? I dare say hypocrisy is in vogue (just ask Philip Pullman!), but surely not to that extent.
Apologies - I thought I'd found material from the 2017 general election. Still, it's remarkable how for we've travelled from "we'll get the best deal ever" to "the best deal we can get is the absence of a deal"

Even after Labour MPs voted no confidence in Corbyn's leadership, and his second landslide win from the members - even after that, whenever a local constituency talked about deselecting their Labour MP, this was described in our far right press as "stalinist" and an "usurpation of democracy" - yet there they are cheering on Johnson having threatened his own MPs. Yes, hypocrisy is clearly in vogue.
These 2 users liked this post: longsidepies mkmel

dsr
Posts: 15132
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 4548 times
Has Liked: 2241 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:07 pm

AndrewJB wrote:Even after Labour MPs voted no confidence in Corbyn's leadership, and his second landslide win from the members - even after that, whenever a local constituency talked about deselecting their Labour MP, this was described in our far right press as "stalinist" and an "usurpation of democracy" - yet there they are cheering on Johnson having threatened his own MPs. Yes, hypocrisy is clearly in vogue.
Absolutely. There is no way that Labour party would expel someone for voting against them, would they. Just ask Alistair Campbell.

Greenmile
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:50 pm
Been Liked: 1080 times
Has Liked: 4241 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:16 pm

dsr wrote:Absolutely. There is no way that Labour party would expel someone for voting against them, would they. Just ask Alistair Campbell.
What would the singer from UB40 know about it?
This user liked this post: Tall Paul

Colburn_Claret
Posts: 8069
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:30 pm
Been Liked: 3060 times
Has Liked: 5023 times
Location: Catterick N.Yorks

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:39 pm

Spijed wrote:Would that be the case though?

If an election is held before October 31st then it'll mean Brexit MP's will take a fare share of the Tory vote.

Also, in 2017 Teresa May had polls pointing towards a 17 point lead at one point.

In addition, in places such as Canterbury, there is no knowing whether the student vote will have an effect.


It all depends on whether Labour is willing to work with other groups. I
I said in an earlier post that I too find polls unreliable, the only one that's right is the actual vote.
I still find that despite all the **** chucked at the Tories, especially Boris. All the media bias on Brexit. All the project fear scaremongering. The Tories still have a substantial lead. How is that possible.

The people who voted to leave keep getting it drummed into them that they made a mistake, we didn't understand the consequences we didn't vote for a no deal Brexit. Can you not see that maybe we didn't make a mistake.

I'm not asking you to change your vote you're entitled to your opinion as anyone, but can you still not accept that there is legitimacy in delivering exactly what the public voted for. LEAVE, with no ad hoc addendum, just leave.

The losers, and I'm talking about the politicians not yourself.
First said they would accept it.
Then they wanted a second referendum.
Then it was a confirmatory vote.
Then they wanted a GE.
Now they just want to take over the House and 'deliver' something they will claim is Brexit, but isnt.

They keep moving the goalposts because they thought, with enough time they could reverse the referendum. May played into their hands with a WA that pleased nobody. Calls to go back to the people. So the extension came, more time for scare stories. When May got the elbow it was clear Boris was determined to deliver, with or without a deal. So then the choruses of no one voted for a no deal. Boris has become PM by default, he had no legitimacy, the people never elected him. Then it becomes clear that Boris, like it or not, is winning the argument. The polls show that he would win a GE, so that immediately gets removed as a demand. No going to the people now, not when it's clear the people dont agree with them. Now they want to take over and do a deal of their own with the EU, the same EU they told us wouldnt budge. The fact that they have no authority from the public to do this, doesn't matter a damn. That's what these politicians think of us.

The people who complained about Boris proroging Parliament, a stain on democracy, should hang their heads in shame about what the bastards are planning now. Regardless of which way you voted.
This user liked this post: BennyD

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:07 pm

Hilary Benn's Bill
Requesting extension:

If, by 19 October the government hasn’t had a deal approved or a no deal approved, the PM must ask for an extension to 31 January 2020
If either a deal or a no-deal motion is passed between 19 October and 31 October, the PM can change or withdraw the request

EU alternative date:

If the EU proposes a different extension date, the PM must agree to the proposal within 2 days…
…Unless MPs reject the proposal in a vote
PM can still agree to a different extension

Publishing reports:

If the extension is agreed, the government has to publish a report on negotiation progress by 30 November
This has to be approved by MPs within 5 days
If it is amended or rejected, another report has to be published by 10 Jan 2020
There will be another report at least every 28 calendar days starting on 7 Feb 2020 until an agreement with the EU is reached “or until otherwise indicated by a resolution of the Commons”


Seems pretty democratic, lots of options for MPs to have a vote there.

BleedingClaret
Posts: 3302
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:06 am
Been Liked: 985 times
Has Liked: 1656 times
Location: Burnley Boy exiled in Nelson

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by BleedingClaret » Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:11 pm

how Come all these pro EU types seem to have so much time off work to protest....

Murger
Posts: 4206
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:55 pm
Been Liked: 1235 times
Has Liked: 844 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Murger » Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:24 pm

aggi wrote:Hilary Benn's Bill
Requesting extension:

If, by 19 October the government hasn’t had a deal approved or a no deal approved, the PM must ask for an extension to 31 January 2020
If either a deal or a no-deal motion is passed between 19 October and 31 October, the PM can change or withdraw the request

EU alternative date:

If the EU proposes a different extension date, the PM must agree to the proposal within 2 days…
…Unless MPs reject the proposal in a vote
PM can still agree to a different extension

Publishing reports:

If the extension is agreed, the government has to publish a report on negotiation progress by 30 November
This has to be approved by MPs within 5 days
If it is amended or rejected, another report has to be published by 10 Jan 2020
There will be another report at least every 28 calendar days starting on 7 Feb 2020 until an agreement with the EU is reached “or until otherwise indicated by a resolution of the Commons”


Seems pretty democratic, lots of options for MPs to have a vote there.
It's just a load of words with zero meaning. Remain MPs will reject whatever offer comes back from the EU.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:40 pm

So Johnson effectively make his first election broadcast for his people v the elite populist election.

Colburn_Claret
Posts: 8069
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:30 pm
Been Liked: 3060 times
Has Liked: 5023 times
Location: Catterick N.Yorks

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:48 pm

Spijed wrote:Won't take long to get a trade deal sorted will it?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ost-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Ceta, the EU-Canada deal, took seven years to negotiate and was about 22 years in the making. But this was a relatively simple trade agreement that does not include the services provisions and deals on non-tariff barriers that a big exporter of professional services such as Britain will almost certainly require.
Deals between larger economies such as the US/EU Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) and the US/Asia deal known as the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) proved so complicated and controversial that they have collapsed under their own political weight."
No comparison. They were negotiating for new trade, our trading is already in place. You do a deal or trade under the WTO, but nobody turns the tap off to a market. That's why despite all the scaremongering a deal is on the cards, but only when you get behind Boris and let him get one.
You wont do that, because you dont want a deal just as the arseholes in Parliament dont want a deal. They want to scupper any negotiations, because they believe therein lies their best chance of remaining. They are frightened to death that Boris will get a deal, so stop the bull shitting about not getting a deal. You dont want one.

Colburn_Claret
Posts: 8069
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:30 pm
Been Liked: 3060 times
Has Liked: 5023 times
Location: Catterick N.Yorks

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:52 pm

martin_p wrote:Why?
Because not being fully prepared means you dont know what's going to happen. But we know what will happen, because remainers have been cramming it down our throats for 3 years.

So either you were right and we are ready, or you're wrong and the preparations weren't necessary.

You cant have it both ways.

Colburn_Claret
Posts: 8069
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:30 pm
Been Liked: 3060 times
Has Liked: 5023 times
Location: Catterick N.Yorks

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:55 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:More good news on the No Deal front
https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-crisi ... e-11800263
Worst case scenario, but dont let it stop you posting your facts....

Colburn_Claret
Posts: 8069
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:30 pm
Been Liked: 3060 times
Has Liked: 5023 times
Location: Catterick N.Yorks

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:04 pm

martin_p wrote:But there’s literally nowhere else to go without relaxing some of our red lines. If the government do that they can go and renegotiate with the EU and bring something back they can probably get through Parliament.
How the **** do you know theres nowhere to go.
Oh I forgot, they told you.
Nobody has a clue what's achievable, because it's never been tested. They say this, we say that, so ******* what. That's what politicians do. You're blinkered.
You can believe something as much as you like, it doesn't become a fact until it is history.

Colburn_Claret
Posts: 8069
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:30 pm
Been Liked: 3060 times
Has Liked: 5023 times
Location: Catterick N.Yorks

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:06 pm

martin_p wrote:How was an extension ‘not possible’ given it’s happened twice before?
Because the EU said so, and the EU never lie.......

Colburn_Claret
Posts: 8069
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:30 pm
Been Liked: 3060 times
Has Liked: 5023 times
Location: Catterick N.Yorks

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:07 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Best way to break the internal stalemate would be to get No Deal fully legislated against.

This would force the fight towards the centre ground and start giving us some realistic solutions that the EU could engage with and ultimately give us a chance of getting out of the EU with a sensible agreement.
Utter ********

tiger76
Posts: 25697
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:43 pm
Been Liked: 4644 times
Has Liked: 9849 times
Location: Glasgow

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by tiger76 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:10 pm

aggi wrote:Hilary Benn's Bill
Requesting extension:

If, by 19 October the government hasn’t had a deal approved or a no deal approved, the PM must ask for an extension to 31 January 2020
If either a deal or a no-deal motion is passed between 19 October and 31 October, the PM can change or withdraw the request

EU alternative date:

If the EU proposes a different extension date, the PM must agree to the proposal within 2 days…
…Unless MPs reject the proposal in a vote
PM can still agree to a different extension

Publishing reports:

If the extension is agreed, the government has to publish a report on negotiation progress by 30 November
This has to be approved by MPs within 5 days
If it is amended or rejected, another report has to be published by 10 Jan 2020
There will be another report at least every 28 calendar days starting on 7 Feb 2020 until an agreement with the EU is reached “or until otherwise indicated by a resolution of the Commons”


Seems pretty democratic, lots of options for MPs to have a vote there.
If the HOC can agree on a deal will there still be a confirmatory referendum,only seems fair to check with the people after all.

Now the onus is on the MP'S to finally put up or shut up,this should have been sorted in the spring one way or another,but better late then never i suppose.

Of course the EU quite reasonably will want to know why the UK is requesting yet another extension,they made it clear last time that the allocated time shouldn't be wasted.

Colburn_Claret
Posts: 8069
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:30 pm
Been Liked: 3060 times
Has Liked: 5023 times
Location: Catterick N.Yorks

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:23 pm

martin_p wrote:You mention smuggling and tariffs then the rest of your post is just about smuggling.

Besides, if we are operating under WTO rules we can’t have a different system for the EU as the rest of the world. So it’s either checks for all or open borders for the whole world.
So true.
Which is why they'll do a deal.

If it's awkward, and we can get the same goods from America, China, India Japan......without the red tape, then maybe well have to trade with them instead. Shock, horror.

By the way, I'm being sarcastic. Europe will do a deal.
I saw a post by a German financier only yesterday, saying Europe would be mad not to do a deal especially Germany. No deal has always been a double edged sword, that's why a deal would be done by now if Remainers stopped trying to derail it.

Colburn_Claret
Posts: 8069
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:30 pm
Been Liked: 3060 times
Has Liked: 5023 times
Location: Catterick N.Yorks

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:36 pm

martin_p wrote:WTO prescribes that the rules have to be non-discriminatory, so unless we change the non-EU rules those are the rules/checks that will apply from 1st November. It says as much on the governments own website (although it relates to possible no deal on 29th March).

Just so I’m clear, from 1st November, in the event of no deal we’re going to **** off the eu by not paying the £39 billion and the rest of the world by giving the eu preferential trading conditions, contrary to WTO rules. Then we’re going to go to all these countries/trading blocks and expect to get decent trade deals.

Doesn’t sound like the best plan to me!
Seeing as you dont have a plan for Brexit, just a plan to remain its irrelevant.

Colburn_Claret
Posts: 8069
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:30 pm
Been Liked: 3060 times
Has Liked: 5023 times
Location: Catterick N.Yorks

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:48 pm

aggi wrote:Hilary Benn's Bill
Requesting extension:

If, by 19 October the government hasn’t had a deal approved or a no deal approved, the PM must ask for an extension to 31 January 2020
If either a deal or a no-deal motion is passed between 19 October and 31 October, the PM can change or withdraw the request

EU alternative date:

If the EU proposes a different extension date, the PM must agree to the proposal within 2 days…
…Unless MPs reject the proposal in a vote
PM can still agree to a different extension

Publishing reports:

If the extension is agreed, the government has to publish a report on negotiation progress by 30 November
This has to be approved by MPs within 5 days
If it is amended or rejected, another report has to be published by 10 Jan 2020
There will be another report at least every 28 calendar days starting on 7 Feb 2020 until an agreement with the EU is reached “or until otherwise indicated by a resolution of the Commons”


Seems pretty democratic, lots of options for MPs to have a vote there.
Are you mad.
The government has to report on negotiation progress by Nov 30th.
There wont be any progress I know it, you know it, and Hilary Benn knows it. As long as remainers bind Boris's hands, the EU can sit on theirs.
That's exactly what Hilary Benn wants.

If you cant see it your stupid. If you see it, but pretend it's not going on, then you're just as bad as the arseholes in the House.
These 2 users liked this post: PaintYorkClaretnBlue atlantalad

Colburn_Claret
Posts: 8069
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:30 pm
Been Liked: 3060 times
Has Liked: 5023 times
Location: Catterick N.Yorks

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:54 pm

AndrewJB wrote:This was the official manifesto the Tory mps ran under in 2017.
https://www.conservatives.com/brexitplan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They failed to deliver this, and now Johnson is threatening to break his own manifesto pledge, and deselect MPs who refuse to go with him. Good luck with that.

Can you imagine if Corbyn suspended Parliament, and rammed through unpopular legislation by threatening his own MPs? The hard right media would go into meltdown. Now Johnson has established a precedent, unless we get it legislated against someone will do it again.
A May failed to deliver this, Johnson is trying to stick to the manifesto. Those Tories who are voting against him are breaking their manifesto promise, the one they stood on the doorsteps supporting.
B Boris isnt ramming through unpopular legislation, hes trying to deliver the popular vote. The one that won the referendum, the one that won the election.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:14 pm

Bizarre speech by Johnson today.

Needed to come out swinging and really, really, really didn't.

Something tells me that he's getting a lot of hassle from his own side over this daft proroguing of parliament lark.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:20 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:Because not being fully prepared means you dont know what's going to happen. But we know what will happen, because remainers have been cramming it down our throats for 3 years.

So either you were right and we are ready, or you're wrong and the preparations weren't necessary.

You cant have it both ways.
I’m not having it both ways, I said the EU had been fully prepared for six months or more and was told they couldn’t be. As I said, the EU have prepared on the basis of what they think will happen, it’s all you can ever do with preparation.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:22 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:How the **** do you know theres nowhere to go.
Oh I forgot, they told you.
Nobody has a clue what's achievable, because it's never been tested. They say this, we say that, so ******* what. That's what politicians do. You're blinkered.
You can believe something as much as you like, it doesn't become a fact until it is history.
The last two and a half years of not getting a deal acceptable to Brexiteers is already history.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:23 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:Because the EU said so, and the EU never lie.......
So you agree that the EU are likely to agree to an extension is we want one then.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:25 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:Seeing as you dont have a plan for Brexit, just a plan to remain its irrelevant.
Seeing as I’m not in charge it’s very relevant! You’re making even less sense than usual today :lol:

Claret-On-A-T-Rex
Been Liked: 1 time
Has Liked: 826 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:31 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:your stupid.
Calling someone stupid + getting it wrong = REALLY STUPID.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:37 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Bizarre speech by Johnson today.

Needed to come out swinging and really, really, really didn't.

Something tells me that he's getting a lot of hassle from his own side over this daft proroguing of parliament lark.
He planting blame for his failure.

Spijed
Posts: 17112
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 2892 times
Has Liked: 1294 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:39 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Bizarre speech by Johnson today.

Needed to come out swinging and really, really, really didn't.

Something tells me that he's getting a lot of hassle from his own side over this daft proroguing of parliament lark.
You get the feeling Boris & Cummings know it's backfired somewhat and the numbers are not there to guarantee an election victory otherwise he would be calling one straight away.

AlargeClaret
Posts: 4426
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:55 pm
Been Liked: 1147 times
Has Liked: 180 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AlargeClaret » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:48 pm

It’s Boris’s only option now a snap election, as it’s virtually a cert he’l he defeated in the house with a dozen Tories confirmed to go with the remainers . I voted remain but find it appalling how the remain side have refused to honour the vote . I presume BoJo will go for the mid Oct date in order to get the Brexit party vote for his “ do or die “ promise . If he then goes and gets an extension it won’t matter as he’ll have his majority .
These 2 users liked this post: Bfcboyo Colburn_Claret

AlargeClaret
Posts: 4426
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:55 pm
Been Liked: 1147 times
Has Liked: 180 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AlargeClaret » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:50 pm

Spijed wrote:You get the feeling Boris & Cummings know it's backfired somewhat and the numbers are not there to guarantee an election victory otherwise he would be calling one straight away.
Isn’t 6 weeks about the minimum time to disolve parliament though ?

Spijed
Posts: 17112
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 2892 times
Has Liked: 1294 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:51 pm

AlargeClaret wrote:It’s Boris’s only option now a snap election, as it’s virtually a cert he’l he defeated in the house with a dozen Tories confirmed to go with the remainers . I voted remain but find it appalling how the remain side have refused to honour the vote . I presume BoJo will go for the mid Oct date in order to get the Brexit party vote for his “ do or die “ promise . If he then goes and gets an extension it won’t matter as he’ll have his majority .
But Nigel Farage has clearly stated he will only help Boris if he agrees to a no-deal and nothing else. If BJ still says that a deal is still possible with the EU the it seems the Brexit party will try to scupper this.

Spijed
Posts: 17112
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 2892 times
Has Liked: 1294 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:56 pm

Quote on the BBC:

Nigel Farage says if Boris Johnson and the Conservatives are "even contemplating" trying to pass a form of Theresa May's withdrawal agreement "we will fight them every inch of the way".
However he says if the prime minister holds a general election to ask for "a mandate for us to leave with a clean Brexit, then we in the Brexit Party will put country before party and do everything to help Mr Johnson".

Spijed
Posts: 17112
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 2892 times
Has Liked: 1294 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:53 pm

This really is vile:

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/ ... 0934054914" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What next? Transgender people having numbers tattooed on their arms?

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:57 pm

Spijed wrote:Quote on the BBC:

Nigel Farage says if Boris Johnson and the Conservatives are "even contemplating" trying to pass a form of Theresa May's withdrawal agreement "we will fight them every inch of the way".
However he says if the prime minister holds a general election to ask for "a mandate for us to leave with a clean Brexit, then we in the Brexit Party will put country before party and do everything to help Mr Johnson".
So as long as the conservatives do what the Brexit nutters want, he'll back them?

Got to love fanatics, makes it much more likely moderates will ignore them

Bfcboyo
Posts: 1965
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:30 pm
Been Liked: 441 times
Has Liked: 355 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Bfcboyo » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:00 pm

Spijed wrote:Hasn't Nigel Farage said that he'll only work with Boris if he leaves the EU with no deal, and nothing else?
I was in the pub that night and that is not exactly what was said.

Spijed
Posts: 17112
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 2892 times
Has Liked: 1294 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:02 pm

Bfcboyo wrote:I was in the pub that night and that is not exactly what was said.
Isn't that what he said in the quote I posted above that was taken from the BBC?

Locked