Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[AndrewJB]

Do you have a link to this? I'm struggling to find it online anywhere.

https://order-order.com/2019/09/02/germ ... h-economy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Guido.

[RingoMcCartney]

No holidays , no pensions , no working rights, no maternity rights, no NHS , no income support, no care for the elderly, no good schools, no university places, no parks, no community centres , no public transport, no environmental rules, no food safety standards, no decent standards of living - unless you can personally afford it.

You've lost it Andrew!

Apart from the rest of the groundless hysteria riddled nonsense. If you're saying , and managing to keep a straight face, that leaving the EU means there'll be "no parks", you're completely beyond help!

[RingoMcCartney]

Brightened my day up no end that!!

Gonna get to Thompsons park this weekend with my youngest.

While we still can!!!!

[dsr]

No holidays, no pensions, no working rights, no maternity rights, no NHS, no income support, no care for the elderly, no good schools, no university places, no parks, no community centres, no public transport, no environmental rules, no food safety standards, no decent standards of living - unless you can personally afford it.

Do you think perhaps that one of the reasons people voted to leave the EU was because they didn't like the way the EU was running our parks, our schools, and our bus companies?

[aggi]

"Deutsche Bank’s chief economist, David Folkerts-Landau, not only says that over the medium and long-term a ‘No Deal’ Brexit will make no difference to the British economy, he says an inadequate deal which constrained the British economy would be “a second best solution”. Confirming what many in Downing Street believe, namely that even without the back-stop, May’s regulatory-aligned deal would have detrimentally constrained the dynamic British economy. So-called “regulatory alignment” is an EU imposed constraint on unleashing the British economy to out compete turgid EU rivals. As the leaked French memo on Friday revealed, Paris fears a resurgent, deregulated dynamic British economy…"

Yes, that's why I was looking for a link. The only reference to it I can find online is a throwaway line on Guido which isn't the most reliable source. I'll remain sceptical for the moment.

[RingoMcCartney]

Yes, that's why I was looking for a link. The only reference to it I can find online is a throwaway line on Guido which isn't the most reliable source. I'll remain sceptical for the moment.

Fine.

Get yourself to your nearest park aggi.

Quick!

Time is of the essence !

When there gone. There gone!!

[RMutt]

Do you think perhaps that one of the reasons people voted to leave the EU was because they didn't like the way the EU was running our parks, our schools, and our bus companies?

Go on....

[RingoMcCartney]

Do you think perhaps that one of the reasons people voted to leave the EU was because they didn't like the way the EU was running our parks, our schools, and our bus companies?

Published transport -

I doubt Andrew has caught one of the Soviet standard , one an hour chuggers, that are being passed off as "trains" that run between Preston and colne.

The dwellers of the metropolitan London borough of Ivory Towers assume the rest of the country is as over indulged with public infrastructure, and transport as their entitled and spoilt selves.

Is it any wonder that people like him wanted to maintain the status quo?

[RingoMcCartney]

According to Andrew a future history piece!



https://youtu.be/YSuHrTfcikU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[aggi]

Do you think perhaps that one of the reasons people voted to leave the EU was because they didn't like the way the EU was running our parks, our schools, and our bus companies?

The EU are running out parks, our schools and our bus companies? I'll be intrigued to see your workings supporting this.

[aggi]

Published transport -

I doubt Andrew has caught one of the Soviet standard , one an hour chuggers, that are being passed off as "trains" that run between Preston and colne.

The dwellers of the metropolitan London borough of Ivory Towers assume the rest of the country is as over indulged with public infrastructure, and transport as their entitled and spoilt selves.

Is it any wonder that people like him wanted to maintain the status quo?

Having spent plenty of time on those chuggers I would agree that this is a real issue. I've posted multiple times on how investment is needed to even out the huge discrepancies in the UK.

No idea what it has to do with the EU though. It wasn't them that caused the latest "Northern Powerhouse" to be such a failure.

[RingoMcCartney]

The EU are running out parks, our schools and our bus companies? I'll be intrigued to see your workings supporting this.

You clearly do sarcasm like you do accepting the largest single expression of democracy this nation has ever witnessed.







You dont.

[SammyBoy]

Haven't been following this thread at all but just had the thought that Theresa May started off approaching the Brexit process just as bullishly as Johnson (Brexit Means Brexit, No Deal Is Better Than A Bad Deal, Red, White and Blue Brexit etc). I wonder if he'll meet a similar fate..

[RingoMcCartney]

Having spent plenty of time on those chuggers I would agree that this is a real issue. I've posted multiple times on how investment is needed to even out the huge discrepancies in the UK.

No idea what it has to do with the EU though. It wasn't them that caused the latest "Northern Powerhouse" to be such a failure.

Isn't it amusing. When the dwellers of the metropolitan London borough of Ivory Towers voted to Remain. It was because , they believed , their circumstances benefitted from maintaining the status quo. Which had something to do with the EU.

However.

When those , that voted to Leave , because they felt that change was needed. Their morally superior cousins, who voted Remain, aren't willing to accept that it anything to do with the EU!

[dsr]

The EU are running out parks, our schools and our bus companies? I'll be intrigued to see your workings supporting this.

I don't think that. It's AndrewJB who tells us we won't have parks, good schools, or public transport after we leave the EU.

[AndrewJB]

You've lost it Andrew!

Apart from the rest of the groundless hysteria riddled nonsense. If you're saying , and managing to keep a straight face, that leaving the EU means there'll be "no parks", you're completely beyond help!

I'm describing your "dynamic, deregulated economy"

Everything will be up for sale. They'll flog the lot.

[RingoMcCartney]

I'm describing your "dynamic, deregulated economy"

Everything will be up for sale. They'll flog the lot.

Calm down!!

Put the spade down Andrew!!!

Please!!!

Scott Park, Thompson Park and Victoria Park all existed before the UK joined the EU!!!!

IF we leave, and if the French fears of a "dynamic, deregulated economy" materialise. My moneys on Parks , just about , avoiding the iron fist of rabid and unbridled capitalism that you so fear!!!

Think positively.

There's nothing to stop the country returning a labour landslide that will fight tooth and nail to protect our green public spaces.

We can airlift Diana Abbot to the top of Belvedere Road to obstruct the, Rupert murdoch sponsored, bulldozers!!!



Imagine Abbot on the barricades.

"You will never takes our Parks! Bring your bulldozers. Bring as many as you like !

We'll stop one!

We'll stop 5!!

We'll stop twelvty three of them!!"

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

Has Boris Johnson considered that if he withdraws the whip from as many as twenty conservative MPs who (will possibly) vote to stop his dictatorial no deal coup tomorrow then, after a vote of confidence, those twenty MPs could defect to a short-term unity government, thus making him the shortest serving Prime Minister in history!!??

That would be hilarious and a timely reminder to all what happens when you put the biggest village idiot in the kingdom in charge

The Battle for Brexit has begun (again)

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

How will you all feel if we are still in the EU on 1st November?

[RingoMcCartney]

How will you all feel if we are still in the EU on 1st November?

The same as you may do in the future when, an issue of national importance relies on the votes of millions, to stop something that you disagree with. But because those millions have already abandoned democracy, because, "theres no point voting , it doesn't change anything", you wont have been able to stop it.......

[Devils_Advocate]

I don't quite understand this recurring question. Why shouldn't immigrants vote? All UK citizens get the vote, wherever they were born.

I am certain pretty much all the EU migrants living in the poor areas of London will not have spent 2k or whatever it costs to get uk citizenship and why would they need to when we were part of the EU and had freedom of movement.

[dsr]

I am certain pretty much all the EU migrants living in the poor areas of London will not have spent 2k or whatever it costs to get uk citizenship and why would they need to when we were part of the EU and had freedom of movement.

Migrants didn't get a vote, obviously. Immigrants did. Immigrants are a bit more permanent; migrants, as I define them (and I don't think I'm alone) are people working (or staying) here but not intending permanent residence. Most migrants wouldn't want UK citizenship because they're intending to go home.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

Johnson wrote a note to Nikki Da Costa on 16 August saying...

“Whole September session [at Westminster] is a rigmarole introduced to show the public that MPs are earning their crust.
I don’t see anything especially shocking about this prorogation”

What I find incredible is the stupidity of people trying to defend this charlatan.

[Lancasterclaret]

To those of you who are telling everyone else that a "No Deal" won't be an issue, this is a good thread from actual experts (ie people paid to know this kind of stuff), as opposed to (grabbing an example out of thin air) not actually knowing the importance of the Dover-Calais route.

Reality. There is a lot of it about today.

https://twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status ... 8698737666" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RingoMcCartney]

To those of you who are telling everyone else that a "No Deal" won't be an issue, this is a good thread from actual experts (ie people paid to know this kind of stuff), as opposed to (grabbing an example out of thin air) not actually knowing the importance of the Dover-Calais route.

Reality. There is a lot of it about today.

https://twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status ... 8698737666" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"No-deal lorry mayhem at Dover and Calais? 'C'est la bullsh**' replies French ports chief" The man in charge of Calais isn't " paid to know this kind of stuff!"


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... es-french/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Deutsche Bank’s chief economist, David Folkerts-Landau, not only says that over the medium and long-term a ‘No Deal’ Brexit will make no difference to the British economy, he says a bad deal which constrained the British economy would be “a second best solution”.

Presumably, Deutsche Bank’s chief economist, David Folkerts-Landau IS NOT "paid to know this kind of stuff!"

[Spijed]

"No-deal lorry mayhem at Dover and Calais? 'C'est la bullsh**' replies French ports chief" The man in charge of Calais isn't " paid to know this kind of stuff!"


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... es-french/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Deutsche Bank’s chief economist, David Folkerts-Landau, not only says that over the medium and long-term a ‘No Deal’ Brexit will make no difference to the British economy, he says a bad deal which constrained the British economy would be “a second best solution”.

Presumably, Deutsche Bank’s chief economist, David Folkerts-Landau IS NOT "paid to know this kind of stuff!"

And yet when the BMA says there could be drug shortages I'll bet you don't believe their expert opinion, yet strangely you are happy to believe an economist instead.

[Lancasterclaret]

"No-deal lorry mayhem at Dover and Calais? 'C'est la bullsh**' replies French ports chief" The man in charge of Calais isn't " paid to know this kind of stuff!"


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... es-french/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Can you tell me what his role is in tariffs and charges between the EU and a non-member state is Ringo?

Does he have the authority that supersedes the decisions made at a national and international level with regards to tariffs and the required paperwork in the event of a "No Deal" Brexit?

Is he responsible for the shortage of both customs clearing houses and properly trained customs personnel on the UK side that will be required to do the extra work (which based on personal experience) is roughly 1000% more time consuming than when sending goods into the SM/CU as a fully paid up member?

Worth mentioning as well that the biggest thing Calais have done is build a much bigger holding area for trucks in the event of delays. Which does rather suggest that they are expected.

[Lancasterclaret]

"No-deal lorry mayhem at Dover and Calais? 'C'est la bullsh**' replies French ports chief" The man in charge of Calais isn't " paid to know this kind of stuff!"


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... es-french/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Deutsche Bank’s chief economist, David Folkerts-Landau, not only says that over the medium and long-term a ‘No Deal’ Brexit will make no difference to the British economy, he says a bad deal which constrained the British economy would be “a second best solution”.

Presumably, Deutsche Bank’s chief economist, David Folkerts-Landau IS NOT "paid to know this kind of stuff!"

You keep quoting him Ringo

No mention of "short term" damage (which economically could mean a lot longer than what you think it does)

There is much more evidence backing up my view than yours, which is why it looks like the "No Deal" will be off the table by the end of tomorrow (which would still leave room for a Deal, which I think (baring DSR) is what everyone will accept.

And if it isn't defeated tomorrow, then we all get to find out whose been correct for the last three years!

[dsr]

They don't collect tariffs at the port. If they want to, there is no need to check either paperwork or the physical contents of the lorry than there is now. The forms may have some different entries and the tariffs will be different, but the principle is the same - a wagon enters carrying goods with relevant paperwork.

The WTO does not insist that every wagon is inspected and every widget counted. They can use as much checking as is expedient.

[Lancasterclaret]

They don't collect tariffs at the port. If they want to, there is no need to check either paperwork or the physical contents of the lorry than there is now. The forms may have some different entries and the tariffs will be different, but the principle is the same - a wagon enters carrying goods with relevant paperwork.

The WTO does not insist that every wagon is inspected and every widget counted. They can use as much checking as is expedient.

Something to back up that up would be great Dsr.

You don't work in international transport, and Ringo doesn't so I'd like to know why the boss of the RHA and the Port of Dover are adamant that there will be lengthy delays.

Why are they wrong?

[dsr]

Something to back up that up would be great Dsr.

You don't work in international transport, and Ringo doesn't so I'd like to know why the boss of the RHA and the Port of Dover are adamant that there will be lengthy delays.

Why are they wrong?

The boss of Dover and the boss of Calais say different things. why is Dover right and Calais wrong?

[Lancasterclaret]

The boss of Dover and the boss of Calais say different things. why is Dover right and Calais wrong?

Nah mate, time to start backing up your stuff with some evidence.

I'm off again now so you've plenty of time to find some.

[aggi]

Sorry it’s taken me a while to reply.

Yes, a few of our “problems” cannot be solved in the EU, ones affecting sovereignty, neoliberal culture, migration etc. But some are unrelated like transport. That’s why I said many of them, not all of them.

The real reason for my reply was to continue the USA conversation, which is fascinating.

Among others I went to San Diego, the Mexican border, Los Angeles (Santa Monica, Venice, Hollywood, Anaheim, Beverly Hills), San Francisco, the farming belt in the middle and the mountains to the east. I saw some really poor areas and some really rich ones. I love it, but would accept there are problems, like everywhere.

Apart from nearly getting beaten up by a local with an over the top view of queueing etiquette, everyone I met was friendly, including the migrants from Mexico. LA was far better than I expected. You mention the homelessness in San Francisco - yes, it was a culture shock to see them entering coffee shops and rifling through the bins without being turned away. I took a 7 year old one block west of Union Square and it was terrifying, very edgy, homeless everywhere, not like the UK. A guy told me that because in the Earthquake State tall buildings are mainly prohibited, there is a chronic lack of housing. No doubts that the USA has massive issues with free market economics and I would personally prefer more of a safety net for those who fall on hard times. Why does losing one’s job need to result in losing a home and rifling through bins in Starbucks?

There is of course no country on Earth where all the best bits of all the others are encapsulated in that one.

P.s. off topic, the baseball in San Francisco showed me what a sports stadium should be like. Absolutely fantastic. About 30 different food and drink outlets ringing a concourse, from cheap to fancy, drink holders in comfy seats, nice toilets. If only we could do that over here.....no reason why not.

I suspect the cat is out of the bag regarding things like culture, migration, etc. Being in or out of the EU isn't going to reverse the huge trend towards globalisation in the UK (and the world), it may just change the demographics of those migrants and the subsequent impact.

From the sound of things you were there on holiday whereas I've been there working. Obviously you end up in different places if you're heading to office complexes and warehouses rather than holiday destinations you, understandably, get a different experience.

I think the biggest issue in San Francisco is the huge disparity in wages tied in with the supply. The silicon valley surge and the high wages associated with it has hugely shifted what properties cost. I read somewhere that to rent a 2 bedroom flat you'd need to be earning 4 times the minimum wage.

I would personally prefer more of a safety net for those who fall on hard times. That's the major issue with the US I'd say (and how they've convinced a large part of the populace that a safety net is a bad thing). A lot of Americans seem proud of the fact that their health care costs a bomb and you're screwed if you can't afford insurance (or work a job, like those I mentioned above, that doesn't offer it). Universal healthcare is a communist innovation and they wouldn't want that in the US seems to be the view of many.

I liked areas like Santa Monica, Venice, Hollywood, Anaheim and Beverly Hills (Santa Monica in particular) but obviously living there is out of reach to most people and there's a world of difference between there and downtown LA (look at areas like Skid Row). I also don't like the American culture of having to drive everywhere that is prevalent in a lot of the West Coast.

[RingoMcCartney]

You keep quoting him Ringo

No mention of "short term" damage (which economically could mean a lot longer than what you think it does)

There is much more evidence backing up my view than yours, which is why it looks like the "No Deal" will be off the table by the end of tomorrow (which would still leave room for a Deal, which I think (baring DSR) is what everyone will accept.

And if it isn't defeated tomorrow, then we all get to find out whose been correct for the last three years!

Not a case of who's been correct for the last 3 years.

More a case of who has more democracy denying MPs in parliament who were prepared to undermine, their own governments negotiating position...

[RingoMcCartney]

Where's Andrew?






Is he out checking the parks are still there!?

[aggi]

You clearly do sarcasm like you do accepting the largest single expression of democracy this nation has ever witnessed.

You dont.

We're at the point where it's difficult to distinguish serious posts from sarcasm.

We've had serious posts on this thread saying ludicrous stuff like power cuts would be a reasonable price to pay for Brexit and the EU is the primary reason for the loss of manufacturing jobs in the UK in the past 40 years. You can see where the confusion arises.

[RingoMcCartney]

We're at the point where it's difficult to distinguish serious posts from sarcasm.

We've had serious posts on this thread saying ludicrous stuff like power cuts would be a reasonable price to pay for Brexit and the EU is the primary reason for the loss of manufacturing jobs in the UK in the past 40 years. You can see where the confusion arises.

You can try and backtrack and make excuses for not realising dsr was being ironic all you like.

But more importantly.

We've always been able to distinguish posters who do accept the largest single expression of democracy this nation has ever witnessed. And those who don't.

Democrats and democracy deniers.

[aggi]

With reference to the parks comment which is so amusing Ringo, it's not as far-fetched as it sounds.

There have been multiple court cases in London (look up Finsbury Park for instance) to try and prevent councils using parks for private events in order to raise funds. Obviously the upshot of this is that the park, or sections of it, is closed to the public during these periods.

There's also the increase of privately owned public spaces https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017 ... gation-map" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; These have been a feature in the US for a number of years but are starting to become more frequent in the UK.

Whether or not Brexit would impact on these is obviously debatable (although the promise of a deregulated economy would give some rise to concern).

[Billy Balfour]

Phillip Lee (Con) joins the LibDems. That's the maj gone. The deselections threats and the Dominic Cummings hectoring has sure worked a treat, hasn't it.

[Colburn_Claret]

No holidays, no pensions, no working rights, no maternity rights, no NHS, no income support, no care for the elderly, no good schools, no university places, no parks, no community centres, no public transport, no environmental rules, no food safety standards, no decent standards of living - unless you can personally afford it.

Were you brain washed as a child, or are you still a child.
Making stuff up does you no credit.
Even supposing we leave, and the Tories are as bad as you clearly expect. Then wouldnt they be replaced by Labour, or the Liberals, or even a coalition.
So under your precious Labour Party we'd have no holidays, no pensions, no working rights, no maternity rights, no NHS, no income support..............
None of those things are dependent on being a member of the EU.
Nye Bevan created the NHS
Its survived for 70 years, but now it's going to crash because we leave the EU.
Stop talking crap

[aggi]

You can try and backtrack and make excuses for not realising dsr was being ironic all you like.

But more importantly.

We've always been able to distinguish posters who do accept the largest single expression of democracy this nation has ever witnessed. And those who don't.

Democrats and democracy deniers.

Just to check, because I think we should have left with something akin to May's deal but you think it was right not to and stay in the EU does that make me a poster who does accept the largest single expression of democracy this nation has ever witnessed (for a very specific definition of largest) and you one who doesn't? It's hard to keep up.

[Colburn_Claret]

I read this post thinking it was someone taking the mick. Only when I saw who posted it did I realise it was serious.

I am serious. I exaggerated the easy, but it certainly wont be hard, but it will never happen at all whilst the PM is hamstrung by the House.
Anyone who pretends otherwise is a liar.

[dsr]

Phillip Lee (Con) joins the LibDems. That's the maj gone. The deselections threats and the Dominic Cummings hectoring has sure worked a treat, hasn't it.

He had already received a "no confidence" vote from his own constituency. So whether there is a general election shortly or whether he resigns and has a by-election, he'll be gone shortly - the Liberal got 4,000 votes in Bracknell last time.

[Colburn_Claret]

So why hasn’t the party that want the solution said what it is then. Why hasn’t a political commentator mentioned it. Are you telling me there’s a solution to the problem but everyone who has worked it out is keeping their mouths shut?

They have spoken of putting in place on the Irish side of the border places where goods can be checked and sealed. Vehicles can then be tracked by tracking number plates, through recognition technology at any border crossing. I'm not pretending it's the finished solution, but it offers lots of possibilities. Only whether it will work or not is irrelevant, because just as the EU wont do a deal, whilst they know remainers control the House, they wont even discuss any alternative to the backstop workable or not, for the same reason, remainers in control of the house.

[Lancasterclaret]

These are the latest alternative arrangements for the border CC

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -by-issues" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can't see what you are suggesting mentioned there at all, where did you get that from?

[RingoMcCartney]

Bracknell voted 54 - 46 Leave.

Lee stood on a manifesto pledge that said no deal is better than a bad deal.

The people of bracknell know so much more since the general election.

They deserve a Peoples By election!

[AndyClaret]

Phillip Lee (Con) joins the LibDems. That's the maj gone. The deselections threats and the Dominic Cummings hectoring has sure worked a treat, hasn't it.

Chair of Lib Dems LGBT isn't too pleased about this, shes resigned.

https://miss-s-b.dreamwidth.org/2048873 ... um=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[JohnMcGreal]

I think these might be a rough few days for Ringo and Co.

[Colburn_Claret]

I'm in favour of a deal.

You are in favour of economic suicide.

Are you ******** in favour of a deal.
If that was true, youd be as angry as everyone else, that any chance of a deal has been sabotaged by the HOC. Only you aren't angry, you're relishing in it.
Every post you made since the referendum, had been about overturning that vote.
You're just as two faced as the bastards in Parliament, claiming you want a deal, when in fact that's the last thing you want.

[RingoMcCartney]

Just to check, because I think we should have left with something akin to May's deal but you think it was right not to and stay in the EU does that make me a poster who does accept the largest single expression of democracy this nation has ever witnessed (for a very specific definition of largest) ( which is not surprisingly , largest and single!!! )and you one who doesn't? It's hard to keep up.

May's deal was brexit in name only.









May's new EU Treaty was a Soft Remain