Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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Claretlad
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Claretlad » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:33 pm

12001 and counting

Lancasterclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:34 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:Are you ******** in favour of a deal.
If that was true, youd be as angry as everyone else, that any chance of a deal has been sabotaged by the HOC. Only you aren't angry, you're relishing in it.
Every post you made since the referendum, had been about overturning that vote.
You're just as two faced as the bastards in Parliament, claiming you want a deal, when in fact that's the last thing you want.
I want a deal. I don't want and don't support "No Deal"

I'd back remain in another referendum, I'd back a deal if there was one in another referendum (v either remain* or No Deal),

I won't back "No Deal" under any circumstances.

I've been very consistent with that.

Its not my fault that all the stuff I've been warning you about it coming to pass because the daft sod in charge thought he could abolish parliament to get a "No Deal" Brexit through is it?

*I think I would if the deal promised close relationship with the EU
Last edited by Lancasterclaret on Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RingoMcCartney
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:34 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:I think these might be a rough few days for Ringo and Co.

If the referendum result is not implemented John.


I think there are potentially decades of irreparable trans generational damage , done to the Peoples trust in democracy itself.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:35 pm

Claretlad wrote:12001 and counting

You're certainly no Diane Abbot!
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:39 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:If the referendum result is not implemented John.


I think there are potentially decades of irreparable trans generational damage , done to the Peoples trust in democracy itself.
You think that is solved by a "No Deal" Brexit, on the back of the shutting down of parliament?

Only way this is solved amicably is compromise on all sides, and there never has been a hint of that from the "No Deal" side sadly.
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dsr
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:43 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:You think that is solved by a "No Deal" Brexit, on the back of the shutting down of parliament?

Only way this is solved amicably is compromise on all sides, and there never has been a hint of that from the "No Deal" side sadly.
Are you talking about the shutting down of parliament for the last 6 weeks, or the prorogation for Conference season? It's not the fact that Parliament won't be sitting that upsets people. It's that the PM has made the decision rather than Parliament itself.

Anyway, we will probably have a general election before then. Get the election in on the 14th October and the new PM will have plenty of time to go to the EU and grovel, or not grovel as he sees fit.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:47 pm

dsr wrote:Are you talking about the shutting down of parliament for the last 6 weeks, or the prorogation for Conference season? It's not the fact that Parliament won't be sitting that upsets people. It's that the PM has made the decision rather than Parliament itself.

Anyway, we will probably have a general election before then. Get the election in on the 14th October and the new PM will have plenty of time to go to the EU and grovel, or not grovel as he sees fit.
You are mistaking recess for prorogation dsr, well, you are bright enough to know that!

Johnson has gambled on that not being as important to MPs as its turning out to be. Looks like it was the final straw for enough rebels to kill of "No Deal"*

*though nothing is certain, especially after the last three years!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:47 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:Were you brain washed as a child, or are you still a child.
Making stuff up does you no credit.
Even supposing we leave, and the Tories are as bad as you clearly expect. Then wouldnt they be replaced by Labour, or the Liberals, or even a coalition.
So under your precious Labour Party we'd have no holidays, no pensions, no working rights, no maternity rights, no NHS, no income support..............
None of those things are dependent on being a member of the EU.
Nye Bevan created the NHS
Its survived for 70 years, but now it's going to crash because we leave the EU.
Stop talking crap
My post was in response to the idea of Britain becoming a "deregulated dynamic economy" after leaving the EU, so no need to take it out of this context.

As for how accurate I might be, have a look at a book published seven years ago written by some of our leading cabinet ministers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia_Unchained" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by kaptin1 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:50 pm

Billy Balfour wrote:Phillip Lee (Con) joins the LibDems. That's the maj gone. The deselections threats and the Dominic Cummings hectoring has sure worked a treat, hasn't it.
I get so annoyed with these defections. Many voters will have backed him because of the party he represents not as an individual. If he (or any other MP) wants to defect and join another party he (they) should be forced to resign and a bye-election should be called thereby giving the electorate the opportunity of backing the individual or backing the party. It’s like buying a season ticket for Burnley and then suddenly finding out you can only use it at Rovers.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:57 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:You are mistaking recess for prorogation dsr, well, you are bright enough to know that!

Johnson has gambled on that not being as important to MPs as its turning out to be. Looks like it was the final straw for enough rebels to kill of "No Deal"*

*though nothing is certain, especially after the last three years!
I'm not mistaking anything. I'm just pointing out that Parliament being utterly outraged about the House being closed for 5 weeks is somewhat at odds with their own decision to close the House for 6 weeks.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:00 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:May's deal was brexit in name only.

May's new EU Treaty was a Soft Remain
I don't remember the referendum question being Leave (but only if I agree with it) or Remain.

May's deal was leaving the EU. That is an undeniable (but I'm sure many still will) fact.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:01 pm

dsr wrote:I'm not mistaking anything. I'm just pointing out that Parliament being utterly outraged about the House being closed for 5 weeks is somewhat at odds with their own decision to close the House for 6 weeks.
Yes, you are

But it doesn't matter what version of the truth you are choosing to believe does it?

Enough MPs have been tipped over the edge by it for it to be a horrible miscalculation (at least, it looks that way at the moment)

Throw in the court cases in NI, Wales (which won't succeed) and Scotland (which might succeed because the law is vastly different up there) and you've got a huge problem for Brexit.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:01 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ess-claims" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Johnson not having a clue. It's not remain people stopping him from negotiating. He's just not doing anything at all.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:03 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:You think that is solved by a "No Deal" Brexit, on the back of the shutting down of parliament?

Only way this is solved amicably is compromise on all sides, and there never has been a hint of that from the "No Deal" side sadly.
I think trust in democracy will be preserved if the largest single expression of democracy this nation has ever witnessed is implemented.

Prorogation means 4 or 5 days of parliamentary time will be lost.

What do you think this pathetic bunch of MPs would have achieved in those 4 or 5 days that they've failed to do in 3 and a half years?

The vast majority of MPs voted to trigger Article 50. The vast majority of MPs vote for the EU withdrawal bill. Both mean we should have left on 29th of march 2019 with or without a deal.

If they voted, and didn't realise it meant leaving without a deal. They're not fit to be in parliament.

If they voted, and did realise it meant leaving without a deal but now want to betray the Will of the People. They're not fit to be part of democracy.
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:03 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:You are a fair poster android but that isn't true.

Lab policy (For the first time for years!) Very clear on what they are doing this morning
Not very clear what they're doing tomorrow.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:03 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:Not very clear what they're doing tomorrow.
Thing is CC, for the first time ever, it is.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:04 pm

AndrewJB wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ess-claims

Johnson not having a clue. It's not remain people stopping him from negotiating. He's just not doing anything at all.

He's back!


The parks Andrew!






Any sign of the bulldozers!?


:lol:

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:05 pm

What year will brexit finish ?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:07 pm

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:What year will brexit finish ?
If the remoaners get their democracy denying way.


Never.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:07 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:He's back!


The parks Andrew!






Any sign of the bulldozers!?


:lol:
"deregulated, dynamic economy" - hahahaha!

dsr
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:09 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Yes, you are

But it doesn't matter what version of the truth you are choosing to believe does it?

Enough MPs have been tipped over the edge by it for it to be a horrible miscalculation (at least, it looks that way at the moment)

Throw in the court cases in NI, Wales (which won't succeed) and Scotland (which might succeed because the law is vastly different up there) and you've got a huge problem for Brexit.
No, I am not mistaking anything. I know the difference between recess and prorogation. Clearly I referred to the two in a way too subtle for you to spot. But the reason I referred to "shutting down of Parliament for the last 6 weeks" and "prorogation of Parliament during the conference season" was because I know the second one - which I called prorogation because it is prorogation - and the first one - which I did not call prorogation because it is not prorogation - is that one is prorogation and the other is not.

The case in Scotland won't succeed. They won't find any constitutional precedent by which the Queen is not allowed to prorogue on the advice of her PM. And if they purport to find that the advice was flawed (though it surprises me that it was public anyway) then the PM will just advise her again.

Unless the case is going to prove that by constitutional precedent prorogation followed by the Queen's speech is either illegal per se, or else that it can only be done with consent from the Leader of the opposition and/or a relatively minor Court.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:11 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:Not very clear what they're doing tomorrow.
It's fairly clear what they're doing tomorrow, assuming they win the vote today. They're going to have a vote about the general election, and some of them are going to vote to have one, and some are going to vote not to have one. That's clear enough.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:22 pm

Spijed wrote:And yet when the BMA says there could be drug shortages I'll bet you don't believe their expert opinion, yet strangely you are happy to believe an economist instead.
The problem is Spijed, that there are experts on both sides, saying opposite things. They cant all be right.
Many of the experts have vested interests, conveniently hidden.
People end up believing everything as fact, if it supports their point of view, and dismiss as lies everything that counters it.
You need to stand back and try and see through it all. Use your common sense and experience. Put yourself in their shoes if needed and work it out for yourself.
Common sense tells me that Europe wont cut its nose off, in order to spite its face. Not that Brussels could give a toss, but the German economy, just as an example, would suffer just much as we would if there is a no deal Brexit. Its irrelevant whether it hurts them more than us or not, it hurts. Therefore common sense tells me they will want a deal. I've no idea what the deal will be, but they'll want one just as much as us.
That deal will never happen though in the present circumstances. Without leaving with no deal, or convincing the Germans and friends, that we are prepared to leave with no deal, they have absolutely no need to even consider opening negotiations, none.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:25 pm

dsr wrote:No, I am not mistaking anything. I know the difference between recess and prorogation. Clearly I referred to the two in a way too subtle for you to spot. But the reason I referred to "shutting down of Parliament for the last 6 weeks" and "prorogation of Parliament during the conference season" was because I know the second one - which I called prorogation because it is prorogation - and the first one - which I did not call prorogation because it is not prorogation - is that one is prorogation and the other is not.

The case in Scotland won't succeed. They won't find any constitutional precedent by which the Queen is not allowed to prorogue on the advice of her PM. And if they purport to find that the advice was flawed (though it surprises me that it was public anyway) then the PM will just advise her again.

Unless the case is going to prove that by constitutional precedent prorogation followed by the Queen's speech is either illegal per se, or else that it can only be done with consent from the Leader of the opposition and/or a relatively minor Court.
Your big problem is that you do not know as much about all this as you like to pretend Dsr!

Why are the rebels kicking off now? Why have they all united?

Can you explain to the rest of the readers why you think Scotland is a relatively minor court (and by definition, Wales and NI ones are) when we are a union?

Can you explain why Scottish law is different to English law in this regard? And why it might be significant?

EDIT - anyone not listening to this live, or at least following a feed is seriously missing out. This is the kind of stuff that only happens once.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:30 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:The problem is Spijed, that there are experts on both sides, saying opposite things. They cant all be right.
Many of the experts have vested interests, conveniently hidden.
People end up believing everything as fact, if it supports their point of view, and dismiss as lies everything that counters it.
You need to stand back and try and see through it all. Use your common sense and experience. Put yourself in their shoes if needed and work it out for yourself.
Common sense tells me that Europe wont cut its nose off, in order to spite its face. Not that Brussels could give a toss, but the German economy, just as an example, would suffer just much as we would if there is a no deal Brexit. Its irrelevant whether it hurts them more than us or not, it hurts. Therefore common sense tells me they will want a deal. I've no idea what the deal will be, but they'll want one just as much as us.
That deal will never happen though in the present circumstances. Without leaving with no deal, or convincing the Germans and friends, that we are prepared to leave with no deal, they have absolutely no need to even consider opening negotiations, none.
That is clearly untrue (and I'm pretty sure you know it is given your next line is Its irrelevant whether it hurts them more than us or not, it hurts.).

~ 45% of our exports go to the EU. ~ 7% of Germany's exports go to the UK. It's clearly going to hit their economy but certainly not to the same extent as the UK economy is hit.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by atlantalad » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:31 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:They have spoken of putting in place on the Irish side of the border places where goods can be checked and sealed. Vehicles can then be tracked by tracking number plates, through recognition technology at any border crossing. I'm not pretending it's the finished solution, but it offers lots of possibilities. Only whether it will work or not is irrelevant, because just as the EU wont do a deal, whilst they know remainers control the House, they wont even discuss any alternative to the backstop workable or not, for the same reason, remainers in control of the house.
Not to worry martin-p has already provided the solution: ( https://www.dfa.ie/media/dfa/eu/brexit/ ... y-2019.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

An interesting read a, according to the EU, they have "fully" prepared for a no-deal - over six month ago. I asked martin-p how does Ireland intend to deal with the landbridge across to UK to import/export to the EU. The issues are covered on pp51, 54 and particularly p55 - turns out Ireland/EU don't quite have things in place :o and Irish wagons will be waiting in the queues at Dover along with UK wagons. So much for free flow across EU boarders.

Begs the question - if there is a process that enables Irish wagons across the UK landbridge to trade freely ( without customs checks) with the EU 26 via completion of necessary paperwork prior to transit why can't the same process be applied to UK wagons trading with the EU? - hence across the NI/Irish UK /France/ Belgium/ boarders?

So.... there is no need for the ridiculous backstop - implement the process the EU intend for Irish transit.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spiral » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:37 pm

AndrewJB wrote:"deregulated, dynamic economy" - hahahaha!
It's all about tax - or to be more precise, not paying it. Has been since the EU's anti-tax avoidance directive became an issue for the wealthy. The backstop is an 'issue' by design. The implementation period is an 'issue' by design. The negotiations are bungled by design. The red lines are unimplelementable as part of an agreement by design. No-deal is the desired and optimal outcome for the forces behind brexit and picking up the pieces following the calamity of crashing out is the objective. The country will be in a desperate mess within weeks which will allow Johnson the pretext to implement a legislative agenda that would never pass the public stress-test of a GE.

Legislative imperium can be a difficult thing to achieve when the people are so divided, and he's taking a gamble with his and Cummings' fashion of election engineering, but Johnson's aim is to purge the party of obstacles to that end then roll the dice on a frankly once in a century change to arrogate power - specifically, the power to implement a tax regime which will be tantamount to stealing a country's wealth - to the wealthy backers of Brexit, the party, and himself, on an unprecedented scale. The chaos of crashing out without an accord is essential to this end-goal. A smooth implementation period undermines the ultimate goal. Where is the pretext for laughably low corporation tax if everything is going (relatively) smoothly under the existing higher rates? Create disruption > cut taxes > maintain spending > blow up the deficit > argue for "stimulant" tax cuts & reduced state spending > handover of state assets to private entities. Nothing has ever really changed, except now there's a rather convenient army of ignorant fanatics willing to undertake the difficult political recalibration necessary for this wealth redistribution, working under the misjudged guise of patriotic duty.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:37 pm

aggi wrote:Just to check, because I think we should have left with something akin to May's deal but you think it was right not to and stay in the EU does that make me a poster who does accept the largest single expression of democracy this nation has ever witnessed (for a very specific definition of largest) and you one who doesn't? It's hard to keep up.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and theres nothing wrong to voice it, but I think it's wrong for people who voted remain, to dictate the terms of leaving.
If remain had won, leavers wouldnt have been allowed to dictate the terms of remaining.
Youd hope that whoever was doing the negotiations would have sounded out opinions on both sides, in order to secure support if nothing else, but they cant be done in public. For the house to even discuss Brexit strategies plays straight into the hands of the EU. We dont see them talking in public. They dont ask MEPs for their opinion on a leaving deal. You keep your cards close to your chest. Even Trump, who is thick as hell, could see we shot ourselves in the foot from the outset.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:49 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I want a deal. I don't want and don't support "No Deal"

I'd back remain in another referendum, I'd back a deal if there was one in another referendum (v either remain* or No Deal),

I won't back "No Deal" under any circumstances.

I've been very consistent with that.

Its not my fault that all the stuff I've been warning you about it coming to pass because the daft sod in charge thought he could abolish parliament to get a "No Deal" Brexit through is it?

*I think I would if the deal promised close relationship with the EU
I've said already that I wasnt happy about poroguing, but it was a necessary evil. He knew that the House would try and stop negotiations given the opportunity. That's exactly what they've done.
You cant have a deal without negotiations. TRUE or FALSE.
You cant have negotiations if one side is happy with the status quo. TRUE or FALSE

Whatever your likes or not, Boris tried to break an impasse that has been holding back a deal.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:55 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:I've said already that I wasnt happy about poroguing, but it was a necessary evil. He knew that the House would try and stop negotiations given the opportunity. That's exactly what they've done.
You cant have a deal without negotiations. TRUE or FALSE.
You cant have negotiations if one side is happy with the status quo. TRUE or FALSE

Whatever your likes or not, Boris tried to break an impasse that has been holding back a deal.
By doing something that united the opposition, and resulted in people all over the country going "WTF?"

Whether you like it or not, Johnston directly attacked our democracy, and for you to call it a "necessary evil" isn't anywhere near good enough.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:59 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:You think that is solved by a "No Deal" Brexit, on the back of the shutting down of parliament?

Only way this is solved amicably is compromise on all sides, and there never has been a hint of that from the "No Deal" side sadly.
Just exactly what are the EU going to compromise on as things stand. Why would they even contemplate compromise. In your opinion.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:01 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:Just exactly what are the EU going to compromise on as things stand. Why would they even contemplate compromise. In your opinion.
Its our red lines CC that are the problem. Always has been.

We want our cake and eat it, which is what was promised in 2016 by people who are now telling you that you voted for a "No Deal" crash out.

EU cannot compromise on trade, or the border (and its made a point since Day 1 of stating that it regards the UK/Ire border as "unique" and will treat it as such)

The deal that May got was bad, but it was the best deal out there.

If there is some verbal trickery that can reinvigorate that deal, then that might pass now.....but it might be too hard now as both sides in the UK can sense victory.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spiral » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:07 pm

He could tell the DUP to shove it and place the customs border at the Irish sea, but that would be met with, to quote a phrase used by JRM...confected outrage from...erm...the JRM's of the world.

Elizabeth
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:08 pm

For clarification what would be victory for these 2 sides you refer to?
It would also be helpful if you are able to describe the make up of the 2 sides?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:16 pm

Elizabeth wrote:For clarification what would be victory for these 2 sides you refer to?
It would also be helpful if you are able to describe the make up of the 2 sides?
1st bit is easy - No Deal or anything but a No Deal

2nd bit not so easy - impossible to tell how long the 2nd group will hang together, but the first group could be emasculated by tomorrow night

Everything is still possible, but to get a "No Deal" would require an election pledge (or a referendum pledge)

Certainly we can all agree that avoiding a "No Deal" is a good thing? Surely?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:20 pm

aggi wrote:That is clearly untrue (and I'm pretty sure you know it is given your next line is Its irrelevant whether it hurts them more than us or not, it hurts.).

~ 45% of our exports go to the EU. ~ 7% of Germany's exports go to the UK. It's clearly going to hit their economy but certainly not to the same extent as the UK economy is hit.
Not according to the Finance Director of Deutsche Bank.

I've never denied a no deal would hurt. It wouldnt be terminal, but it would hurt. Those of you denying it will hurt the German economy are lying. Degrees of hurt are irrelevant, if they're not then you should have no qualms about leaving with no deal.

I cited Germany as en example, but you can add to Germany's 7%. Theres the French percentage, the Dutch percentage, the Italian percentage...........

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:33 pm

While you have been on a sabbatical I stated my view on No Deal and whether I supported it.
I don't know what you mean by 'anything but a No Deal'. Are you willing to expand?
It would be a shock if No Deal survives so maybe we could both put that group to one side. It's the second group that I am interested in your opinion. To say its impossible and not so easy to describe this group is a cop out in my opinion.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:34 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:By doing something that united the opposition, and resulted in people all over the country going "WTF?"

Whether you like it or not, Johnston directly attacked our democracy, and for you to call it a "necessary evil" isn't anywhere near good enough.
Remainers were already united against him, in private if not in public. If you think the vote this morning is a repercussions of proroging, you're wrong. They were going to scupper talks whatever he did. Prorogation just gives them an excuse to blame him for their actions, when they would have done it anyway.
As I said prorogation was a bad idea, but not because it was anti democratic. Just a political own goal.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:35 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Its our red lines CC that are the problem. Always has been.

We want our cake and eat it, which is what was promised in 2016 by people who are now telling you that you voted for a "No Deal" crash out.

EU cannot compromise on trade, or the border (and its made a point since Day 1 of stating that it regards the UK/Ire border as "unique" and will treat it as such)

The deal that May got was bad, but it was the best deal out there.

If there is some verbal trickery that can reinvigorate that deal, then that might pass now.....but it might be too hard now as both sides in the UK can sense victory.
So as I said, the EU arent going to compromise on anything.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:43 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:1st bit is easy - No Deal or anything but a No Deal

2nd bit not so easy - impossible to tell how long the 2nd group will hang together, but the first group could be emasculated by tomorrow night

Everything is still possible, but to get a "No Deal" would require an election pledge (or a referendum pledge)

Certainly we can all agree that avoiding a "No Deal" is a good thing? Surely?
We do all agree that avoiding a no deal is good, but we cant negotiate a deal until weve left. In order to bake a cake, you've got to break a few eggs.

This isnt by accident, it's by design. Remainers in the House know that taking no deal off the table, turns Boris into a eunuch.
That's why they did it, and you know it as well.
All your talk of wanting a deal, when the man in charge of making it has just been shafted is a crock of ****.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Billy Balfour » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:47 pm

FTSE perked up after Johnson lost his majority. That must be a first - markets picking up after a CONSERVATIVE GOVT loses its majority.

Then again, what do the markets know about the massive benefits of a no deal, eh? Also what does the CBI know about the benefits of a no deal? Or the farming unions, TUC, British Retail Consortium, British Pharmacological Society, automotive industry, aerospace industry, etc, etc, etc.
Last edited by Billy Balfour on Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spiral » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:53 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:We do all agree that avoiding a no deal is good, but we cant negotiate a deal until weve left.
Negotiating a withdrawal agreement after the event defeats the point of an agreement on how to withdraw from the union. The purpose of the WA is to provide a smooth transition. We're back to that confusion some folks seem to be having between the 'deal' meaning the WA/political decleration, and post Brexit free-trade negotiations. You're either deliberately conflating the two, or, more likely, confused.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:10 pm

kaptin1 wrote:I get so annoyed with these defections. Many voters will have backed him because of the party he represents not as an individual. If he (or any other MP) wants to defect and join another party he (they) should be forced to resign and a bye-election should be called thereby giving the electorate the opportunity of backing the individual or backing the party. It’s like buying a season ticket for Burnley and then suddenly finding out you can only use it at Rovers.
We’ve changed Prime Minister twice in the last three and a half years without General Elections so there’s no point being precious about individual MPs. I sort of agree with you, but only if the same rules apply to the PM.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:14 pm

Elizabeth wrote:While you have been on a sabbatical I stated my view on No Deal and whether I supported it.
I don't know what you mean by 'anything but a No Deal'. Are you willing to expand?
It would be a shock if No Deal survives so maybe we could both put that group to one side. It's the second group that I am interested in your opinion. To say its impossible and not so easy to describe this group is a cop out in my opinion.
Why is it a cop out whoever you are?

It is an uneasy alliance of remainers, dealers, nationalists, independents and greens.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:15 pm

Spiral wrote:It's all about tax - or to be more precise, not paying it. Has been since the EU's anti-tax avoidance directive became an issue for the wealthy. The backstop is an 'issue' by design. The implementation period is an 'issue' by design. The negotiations are bungled by design. The red lines are unimplelementable as part of an agreement by design. No-deal is the desired and optimal outcome for the forces behind brexit and picking up the pieces following the calamity of crashing out is the objective. The country will be in a desperate mess within weeks which will allow Johnson the pretext to implement a legislative agenda that would never pass the public stress-test of a GE.

Legislative imperium can be a difficult thing to achieve when the people are so divided, and he's taking a gamble with his and Cummings' fashion of election engineering, but Johnson's aim is to purge the party of obstacles to that end then roll the dice on a frankly once in a century change to arrogate power - specifically, the power to implement a tax regime which will be tantamount to stealing a country's wealth - to the wealthy backers of Brexit, the party, and himself, on an unprecedented scale. The chaos of crashing out without an accord is essential to this end-goal. A smooth implementation period undermines the ultimate goal. Where is the pretext for laughably low corporation tax if everything is going (relatively) smoothly under the existing higher rates? Create disruption > cut taxes > maintain spending > blow up the deficit > argue for "stimulant" tax cuts & reduced state spending > handover of state assets to private entities. Nothing has ever really changed, except now there's a rather convenient army of ignorant fanatics willing to undertake the difficult political recalibration necessary for this wealth redistribution, working under the misjudged guise of patriotic duty.
The best Remainer post of the thread.

Whereas the Leave post of the thread was "your stupid" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:15 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:So as I said, the EU arent going to compromise on anything.
You haven't read it properly. They have already compromised by allowing us our own bespoke deal with the Irish border allowed unique status.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:16 pm

Government duplicity in full flow

https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status ... 0832797697" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

1/4 of the size May had, and he wants you to believe he's serious about a deal?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:18 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:I've never denied a no deal would hurt. It wouldnt be terminal, but it would hurt.
It would probably be terminal if you have a business exporting or importing from somewhere in the EU and, if reports are to be believed, to half or more farmers but whatever, as long as you're ok.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:19 pm

atlantalad wrote:Not to worry martin-p has already provided the solution: ( https://www.dfa.ie/media/dfa/eu/brexit/ ... y-2019.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

An interesting read a, according to the EU, they have "fully" prepared for a no-deal - over six month ago. I asked martin-p how does Ireland intend to deal with the landbridge across to UK to import/export to the EU. The issues are covered on pp51, 54 and particularly p55 - turns out Ireland/EU don't quite have things in place :o and Irish wagons will be waiting in the queues at Dover along with UK wagons. So much for free flow across EU boarders.

Begs the question - if there is a process that enables Irish wagons across the UK landbridge to trade freely ( without customs checks) with the EU 26 via completion of necessary paperwork prior to transit why can't the same process be applied to UK wagons trading with the EU? - hence across the NI/Irish UK /France/ Belgium/ boarders?

So.... there is no need for the ridiculous backstop - implement the process the EU intend for Irish transit.
You think the EU will have any say on what goes on at Dover after Brexit? It’s down to the UK to sort out what happens at Dover, as I said the EU have fully prepared what it can prepare for based on what it think will happen (by the way, being fully prepared doesn’t mean totally mitigated, this will be crap for Ireland but they’ve done all they can that they can control to may it a little less crap).

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by jrgbfc » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:26 pm

It OK for all these millionaire Tories like Boris Johnson and Rees-Mogg to be pushing for no deal, if it all goes tits up it's not them who'll lose their jobs or be struggling to pay the mortgage is it?
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