Yep.Spijed wrote:"independent mindset."
Basically an excuse for more racist, right-wing candidates then.
Oh come on, nobody is stupid enough to vote leave againIf it be your will wrote:I personally think there is no chance whatsoever a remain result will be respected by leavers any more than the leave result was respected by remainers. All that would happen in the event of a remain win would be a victory for either Farage or a hard leave Tory party in the following election, where only about 35% will be required for a parliamentary majority, rather than the 50% required in a referendum, then we leave via the parliamentary route instead.
The 2017 result is not going to go away.
Problem is CC is that I don't believe he will do that. And I doubt I'm alone.CrosspoolClarets wrote:Yep.
Or, alternately, an excuse to take responsibility for our own country and pile money into northern transport infrastructure, social care and education - all that hard right stuff Boris is planning.
"Any legislation that is passed today or tomorrow can be repealed by a new parliament if one is elected before 31 October. A No Deal Brexit on 31 October can only be taken off the table if legislation is passed and no election takes place before 31 October."summitclaret wrote:So a bill can get royal assent in few days but it can't be repealed in 14 days if a new gov has a mandate Why?
It isn't a gamble, it's a desperate act. His clever plan of closing down Parliament and forcing no deal will be torpedoed tonight and he's lost the Scottish and also sacked some of the most popular figures in his party. Tonight more tories will vote against him and be deselected. Why do what he wants when he's thrown a quarter of his MPs on the bonfire? Corbyn should get a big carton of popcorn and sit back and watch this fool eviscerate his own party.Lancasterclaret wrote:Where are the Conservatives going to get their seats to have a majority from?
Scotland? Saved them last time but that was 100% because of Ruth Davidson, and she's gone and doesn't back Boris
SW England? Only going to lose down there to Lib Dem surges
London? Will get wiped out
North and the Midlands? Only place they might gain, but if people in Doncaster etc vote for the Tories after what happened under Thatcher, they deserve all they get quite frankly.
And the last three years mess is a Tory Government strategy, and people tend to blame the government.
GE is a huge gamble for Boris, possibly a referendum is the only way he holds power and can enact what he wants.
But he's killed that by wiping out the centre and left of his party.
He's gambling a lot on the polls (which were wrong in 2017 don't forget)
I guess we will see Lancs.Lancasterclaret wrote:Problem is CC is that I don't believe he will do that. And I doubt I'm alone.
Once he gets a majority, he'll do whatever is required to keep his allies on side, and that won't be massive public sector spending.
Maybe, but he's made a terrible start by trying to drive the country in two.CrosspoolClarets wrote:I guess we will see Lancs.
I suspect he wants to go down in history as some kind of legendary PM. To do that he realistically will have to make a success of Brexit and solve the north/south divide. He has lost a chunk of Tory votes for a generation (maybe 5%). He has to lock down a new chunk, and it can only be blue collar workers. I struggle to see how he can do that without large spending increases and tax cuts (a difficult balance, we will all agree).
To put it another way. He has little choice, whatever his personal convictions. He has brutally handed out retribution for the last 3 years, a brilliant manoeuvre, that level of procrastinating by the last government had to have consequences, and it transpires it was the end of their careers. Now, Boris can only crack on and reform the party as he sees fit, he cannot turn back.
But he must know he's going to be remembered as the PM who broke up the unionCrosspoolClarets wrote:I guess we will see Lancs.
I suspect he wants to go down in history as some kind of legendary PM. To do that he realistically will have to make a success of Brexit and solve the north/south divide. He has lost a chunk of Tory votes for a generation (maybe 5%). He has to lock down a new chunk, and it can only be blue collar workers. I struggle to see how he can do that without large spending increases and tax cuts (a difficult balance, we will all agree).
To put it another way. He has little choice, whatever his personal convictions. He has brutally handed out retribution for the last 3 years, a brilliant manoeuvre, that level of procrastinating by the last government had to have consequences, and it transpires it was the end of their careers. Now, Boris can only crack on and reform the party as he sees fit, he cannot turn back.
Nobody is on the ropes, we are all in this together. But we do need to leave.Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:
I literally can't wait to see what happens today, it could be anything, the leave side is so batshit.
Didn't CrosspoolClarets say "Great news tonight. That’s the big win from this whole thing"!!??
Unbelieveable, well, strap yourself in CrosspoolClarets, I'm sure Boris and Dom will do a whole more tonne of winning big today.
YOU'VE REALLY GOT US ON THE ROPES
Its a new hot take that people like Hammond are not Conservatives.CrosspoolClarets wrote:Nobody is on the ropes, we are all in this together. But we do need to leave.
Sit back for a moment and imagine Boris’s Cabinet trying to come up with an election manifesto.
That manifesto will have some things in it like a free trade deal with the EU, leaving by a set date no matter what, review of high speed 2, spending increases etc.
Now, given the last 3 years, can anyone see Phillip Hammond knocking on doors campaigning for that manifesto? Not a chance. He would have been a massive problem. That is one reason why handing out retribution for what these secret Remainers have done whilst in Government is fantastic news. It allows us to move on. There were always going to be consequences. They were told it wasn’t a conscience vote, it was a confidence vote. That matters.
The other side of why it is great news is because these people are not conservatives. e.g. Osborne and Hammond pushed the dividend tax, meaning people who make a living through running a consultancy, like me, have seen their tax bill increase by about 25% (and I have a normal income in 5 figures). To top it off it also means HMRC demand payments for the next year up front, before my suppliers have sometimes paid me.
The dividend tax (which I call an aspiration tax) is because those fools are obsessed with following Corbyn and claiming business owners should be taxed the same as employees. The trouble is, there are a dozen reasons you shouldn’t (lack of paid holidays, lack of paid sickness, delays to getting paid, risk of bad debts, no pension, risk of work drying up). It is a tax on aspiration - and that cannot be a conservative who supports it. That is one of several examples. Good riddance.
His deal will be May’s Withdrawal agreement with an Agrifood only backstop (he is working on the DUP which is why it is hush hush). He will also rewrite the political declaration to a normal free trade deal in the future. That’s a compromise I would be happy with.Lancasterclaret wrote:Maybe, but he's made a terrible start by trying to drive the country in two.
if he was serious about that, he'd be looking for a deal that would satisfy more than just the ERG, and there isn't any evidence he is, and lots of evidence that he's not even remotely serious.
Not hush-hush, been all over the twittersphere for the past three days, and its still not looking like it will fly with the EU.CrosspoolClarets wrote:His deal will be May’s Withdrawal agreement with an Agrifood only backstop (he is working on the DUP which is why it is hush hush). He will also rewrite the political declaration to a normal free trade deal in the future. That’s a compromise I would be happy with.
The country was already driven in two, but having members of his party voting the other way on a confidence issue cannot be tolerated. It wasn’t a conscience vote. They vote against, they lose the whip. That’s how it works.
Time to do some work - but I’ll be having a break at lunch for PMQs, it should be fireworks today.
The further away it gets the closer they think it is.Lancasterclaret wrote:Its a new hot take that people like Hammond are not Conservatives.
Guess we should be used to this by now.
Everytime reality bites, they just invent a new reality to try to justify their stance.
Quick Edit - the more you push for this, the more likely that this blows up and we end up staying. Its been said to you repeatedly on here (and others) and its even more true today than it was last week.
You risk everything you want because you won't compromise. Is it worth the risk?
The Conservative Party no longer exists. The party which is masquerading under the name of the 'Conservatives' is essentially UKIP on steroids, and there's no place for people like Hammond, Clarke and probably many other conservatives in a party like that.dsr wrote:Hammond couldn't stand as a Conservative, expelled or not. How can you stand a s a Conservative when you disagree with the central plank of the manifesto and when you don't want your leader to become Prime Minister? How can you stand as a Conservative when you already know that if there are 324 Tories and 324 Labour in the House, you will vote for Corbyn as PM? It would be a nonsense.
He could stand as an independent Conservative, except you aren't allowed to now under electoral law. (Potential confusion over party names, apparently.) Winston Churchill (the PM one, not his grandson) stood as an "Independent Anti-Socialist" and as a "Constitutionalist". He could try that. Churchill changed sides twice, after all.
You're kidding no one Andrew!AndrewJB wrote:I nearly missed your post as I was listening to the French crapping themselves at the thought of our deregulated and dynamic economy.
They’re not quite UKIP, they’ve lurched further to the right since the Farage days. They’re certainly the Bullingdon Brexit Party though!JohnMcGreal wrote:The Conservative Party no longer exists. The party which is masquerading under the name of the 'Conservatives' is essentially UKIP on steroids, and there's no place for people like Hammond, Clarke and probably many other conservatives in a party like that.
The 'swivel-eyed loons' who Cameron spent years battling against have now completely taken over the party. Which isn't a bad thing for the population as a whole, because they'll be political asbestos at the next general election.
Thanks for giving the annoying yappy dog a toy to play with Andrew, it means the grown ups can have a proper conversation.RingoMcCartney wrote:You're kidding no one Andrew!
You were out in the park , despite it being pitch black, making the most of it.
According to you, if we leave the EU, there will be -
"No parks"
You still think there is a massive pro-EU majority?JohnMcGreal wrote:The 'swivel-eyed loons' who Cameron spent years battling against have now completely taken over the party. Which isn't a bad thing for the population as a whole, because they'll be political asbestos at the next general election.
The Brexit Party (the real one) will get a good chunk of group 1.dsr wrote:You still think there is a massive pro-EU majority?
There are 3 main attitudes to the EU:
1. I want out.
2. I want in, or else to be out in a way that is close to being in.
3. I don't care but I am sick of the whole thing.
The Tories will get all of group 1 and will have a big advantage in chasing the votes of group 3.
I think it's dangerous to assume that people will vote for you based solely on your stance on Brexit, especially when your government is becoming increasingly unhinged, hapless and incoherent. They're simply unfit to govern, and it's becoming very visible and noticeable. Last night's spectacle won't have done them any favours, and if they carry on with these antics, I think they'll put a lot of voters off, Brexit or no Brexit.dsr wrote:You still think there is a massive pro-EU majority?
There are 3 main attitudes to the EU:
1. I want out.
2. I want in, or else to be out in a way that is close to being in.
3. I don't care but I am sick of the whole thing.
The Tories will get all of group 1 and will have a big advantage in chasing the votes of group 3.
Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:Let's leave the EU = stupid
Let's put Theresa May in charge = even stupider
Let's put Boris in charge = Beyond Absolute Stupid (BYA)
Let's put Nigel Farage in charge = + + ALERT ++ ++ ALERT ++ ++ UNDISCOVERED LEVELS OF STUPID ++ + + ALERT ++ ++ ALERT ++ ++ UNDISCOVERED LEVELS OF STUPID ++ + + ALERT ++ ++ ALERT ++ ++ UNDISCOVERED LEVELS OF STUPID ++ + + ALERT ++ ++ ALERT ++ ++ UNDISCOVERED LEVELS OF STUPID ++ + + ALERT ++ ++ ALERT ++ ++ UNDISCOVERED LEVELS OF STUPID ++ + + ALERT ++ ++ ALERT ++ ++ UNDISCOVERED LEVELS OF STUPID ++ + + ALERT ++ ++ ALERT ++ ++ UNDISCOVERED LEVELS OF STUPID ++ + + ALERT ++ ++ ALERT ++ ++ UNDISCOVERED LEVELS OF STUPID ++ + + ALERT ++ ++ ALERT ++ ++ UNDISCOVERED LEVELS OF STUPID ++ + + ALERT ++ ++ ALERT ++ ++ UNDISCOVERED LEVELS OF STUPID ++ + + ALERT ++ ++ ALERT ++ ++ UNDISCOVERED LEVELS OF STUPID ++ + + ALERT ++ ++ ALERT ++ ++ UNDISCOVERED LEVELS OF STUPID ++ + + ALERT ++ ++ ALERT ++ ++ UNDISCOVERED LEVELS OF STUPID ++ + + ALERT ++ ++ ALERT ++ ++ UNDISCOVERED LEVELS OF STUPID ++
martin_p wrote:Thanks for giving the annoying yappy dog a toy to play with Andrew, it means the grown ups can have a proper conversation.
Well you continue to focus and that one insignificant point then and let the rest of us talk about the things that matter, there’s a good boy/girl.RingoMcCartney wrote:A yappy dog that points out hysteria riddled remoaner nonsense!! A yappy dog that wont be able to go to the park soon Marty!
Wow, no mercy on Ringlizabethmartin_p wrote:Thanks for giving the annoying yappy dog a toy to play with Andrew, it means the grown ups can have a proper conversation.
When it comes to who can and who cant post. Who made you God!?martin_p wrote:Well you continue to focus and that one insignificant point then and let the rest of us talk about the things that matter, there’s a good boy/girl.
That was when you were being a grown up and talking about the "things that matter"martin_p wrote: You do know it's not Bercow that will define what the vote is don't you? He's just the facilitator Wrongo
The bill is being pushed not to bind the new parliament (as you say it can be repealed if a new parliament comes in) but to bind the current one.summitclaret wrote:So a bill can get royal assent in few days but it can't be repealed in 14 days if a new gov has a mandate Why?
Wow, zero thinking from the gullibleClaret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:Wow, no mercy on Ringlizabeth
Thought you were going to post something new, I was wrong, you’ve just moved onto a different bone shaped toy, one of your old favourites.RingoMcCartney wrote:When it comes to who can and who cant post. Who made you God!?
Anyway , I predicted Bercows role would be pivotal nearly a year ago.
You sneeringly, and as time as proven, got it utterly utterly wrong when you said-
That was when you were being a grown up and talking about the "things that matter"
The FD of DB said that the UK would suffer a short-term hit (including some spectacular business failures) but would rally in the medium to long term. He didn't say that Germany would be impacted in the same way.Colburn_Claret wrote:Not according to the Finance Director of Deutsche Bank.
I've never denied a no deal would hurt. It wouldnt be terminal, but it would hurt. Those of you denying it will hurt the German economy are lying. Degrees of hurt are irrelevant, if they're not then you should have no qualms about leaving with no deal.
I cited Germany as en example, but you can add to Germany's 7%. Theres the French percentage, the Dutch percentage, the Italian percentage...........
Labour, so far as can be judged, want the current position to continue. Liberals have already said that they don't care how many referendums we have, they will ignore them all and stay in the EU. People who feel strongly about Brexit will vote Tory or Brexit Party, more or less guaranteed.JohnMcGreal wrote:I think it's dangerous to assume that people will vote for you based solely on your stance on Brexit, especially when your government is becoming increasingly unhinged, hapless and incoherent. They're simply unfit to govern, and it's becoming very visible and noticeable. Last night's spectacle won't have done them any favours, and if they carry on with these antics, I think they'll put a lot of voters off, Brexit or no Brexit.
And this is why the country is ******. The arrogance to state that 48% of the country should have no say in the future of the country.Colburn_Claret wrote:You have no right to tell Leavers what any deal should be on Brexit. You didn't vote for it.
You quoted my post and deleted this from the original!!martin_p wrote:Thought you were going to post something new, I was wrong, you’ve just moved onto a different bone shaped toy, one of your old favourites.
Awkward for you or something Marty!?martin_p wrote: You do know it's not Bercow that will define what the vote is don't you? He's just the facilitator Wrongo
Not true.RingoMcCartney wrote:Anti democratic, Benn's bill, forces the PM to request an extension. The EU can offer a new date that , presumably, could possibly be years , and the PM is then compelled to accept the new date set by Europe.
People voted to leave over 3 years ago. People have had enough of it dragging on and on and on. This will play into the hands of Boris in any forthcoming election.
We shall see. I know you desperately want to believe in him but in reality Johnson has a history of broken promises, untruths and outright lying (he's been sacked for it twice).CrosspoolClarets wrote:I guess we will see Lancs.
I suspect he wants to go down in history as some kind of legendary PM. To do that he realistically will have to make a success of Brexit and solve the north/south divide. He has lost a chunk of Tory votes for a generation (maybe 5%). He has to lock down a new chunk, and it can only be blue collar workers. I struggle to see how he can do that without large spending increases and tax cuts (a difficult balance, we will all agree).
To put it another way. He has little choice, whatever his personal convictions. He has brutally handed out retribution for the last 3 years, a brilliant manoeuvre, that level of procrastinating by the last government had to have consequences, and it transpires it was the end of their careers. Now, Boris can only crack on and reform the party as he sees fit, he cannot turn back.
He’s not going to start looking at things like clauses at this stage.Lancasterclaret wrote:Not true.
Clause 3.3 is the one you need to look at.
I deleted nothing you fool, if you hit the quote button it doesn’t do embedded quotes. Have you managed to find the post where I said what you claim by the way? Clue- you won’t.RingoMcCartney wrote:You quoted my post and deleted this from the original!!
Awkward for you or something Marty!?
With more to come today, I'm sureCrosspoolClarets wrote:a brilliant manoeuvre
martin_p wrote:I deleted nothing you fool, if you hit the quote button it doesn’t do embedded quotes. Have you managed to find the post where I said what you claim by the way? Clue- you won’t.
Anyway, you continue to play with your favourite old toy, I’ll let you get on with it.
