Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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CardyTheClaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CardyTheClaret » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:03 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:If it does, it does.

Course, if you'd like to fill me in with what he's going to do for Burnley with the rest of the Brexit Party policies then I'm all ears.
I’m not here to give a sales pitch, I think you have misunderstood me for somebody who is wanting this.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:03 pm

dsr wrote:Are you saying that "no deal" should be prevented even if the electorate votes for it, or just that "no deal" should be prevented on 31st October so that the electorate can make its decision?
The 2nd bit.

If people vote for a "No Deal", then "No Deal" it is.

Mine or your opinion would be meaningless to be fair, as as long as the winner has a majority, he or she could do what she likes.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:05 pm

CardyTheClaret wrote:I’m not here to give a sales pitch, I think you have misunderstood me for somebody who is wanting this.
Not specifically aimed at you to be fair, more to the more Brexity posters who might vote for it.

I apologise for any misunderstandings though!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:05 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Oh of course, I'm 100% behind a GE (but only after a "No Deal" has been prevented)

100% behind anything that gets us out of this to be frank.

Just concerned that it results in another hung parliament, which might be a more interesting make up, but would have the same issues.
Swing seat. Who will you be voting for?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:06 pm

dsr wrote:Jo Swinson's stated policy is to Remain in the EU even if there is a second referendum that votes Leave again.
I have to say, what is wrong with that?

Is the Brexit Party suddenly going to accept the result if it means we stay in the EU?

Its a silly argument

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:07 pm

If it be your will wrote:Swing seat. Who will you be voting for?
Honestly

No clue

Mrs LC is a Conservative voter, but she's not voting for Boris so I suspect she'll be Green/Lib Dem

I like Cat Smith but she took my vote in 2017 to back Brexit, so I'll probably have to really think about it.

I'm 75% sure I'll be voting Lib Dem I think.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:11 pm

dsr wrote:Jo Swinson's stated policy is to Remain in the EU even if there is a second referendum that votes Leave again.
I know! The whole thing is so polarised. Labour are desperately trying to out-compete this idiocy to be the most 'remain', and the Tories are desperately competing with Farage to be the most 'leave'.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:12 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I have to say, what is wrong with that?

Is the Brexit Party suddenly going to accept the result if it means we stay in the EU?

Its a silly argument
What's wrong with it? Well, let's put it the other way round. If Parliament orders another identical referendum and Boris Johnson were to say that even if the referendum votes to Remain, we would still Leave - is that fair as well? If there is another Scottish referendum and any national party says that if the referendum votes Leave, they will not pass any legislation and will make them stay, would you be happy? If there was an Irish referendum and both halves of the island voted for unification but the DUP said "not on your nelly, we will not pass the laws that make it possible" - would you be happy with that?

Parliamentary democracy, fine. But democracy is the more important word - the people are sovereign. The much lauded "parliamentary sovereignty" means that the people are not ultimately in charge. We've had rule by the king whent he people didn't have their say, we've had ruie by Parliament when the people didn't have their say (though Cromwell was an absolute monarchist in all but name once he took charge). Democracy makes the people, the boss.

To answer the question, if the Brexit party forms a government and a referendum directs them to rejoin the EU, I would expect them to rejoin the EU. I am assuming, of course, that we would have left first, because I don't see any position where Brexit could win the election but lose the referendum.

Swinson's position only makes sense if she accepts that the Liberals are a fringe party with no hope of power. It's a nonsense position for a party that aspires to government.,

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:15 pm

dsr wrote:Are you saying that "no deal" should be prevented even if the electorate votes for it, or just that "no deal" should be prevented on 31st October so that the electorate can make its decision?
I'd be happy with an election on the 1st November, it makes perfect sense. Shelve Brexit for a month or two and then use a GE to break the deadlock.
As Brexit will be the only real issue in the GE someone should emerge with a consensus be it deal, no deal or remain or people's vote.

I would prefer Brexit to be delivered in some form now, leavers will be happy and remainers will just have to start a new fight to rejoin.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:15 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Honestly

No clue

Mrs LC is a Conservative voter, but she's not voting for Boris so I suspect she'll be Green/Lib Dem

I like Cat Smith but she took my vote in 2017 to back Brexit, so I'll probably have to really think about it.

I'm 75% sure I'll be voting Lib Dem I think.
This is it: Labour are going to lose to all sides, aren't they?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:17 pm

dsr wrote:What's wrong with it? Well, let's put it the other way round. If Parliament orders another identical referendum and Boris Johnson were to say that even if the referendum votes to Remain, we would still Leave - is that fair as well? If there is another Scottish referendum and any national party says that if the referendum votes Leave, they will not pass any legislation and will make them stay, would you be happy? If there was an Irish referendum and both halves of the island voted for unification but the DUP said "not on your nelly, we will not pass the laws that make it possible" - would you be happy with that?

Parliamentary democracy, fine. But democracy is the more important word - the people are sovereign. The much lauded "parliamentary sovereignty" means that the people are not ultimately in charge. We've had rule by the king whent he people didn't have their say, we've had ruie by Parliament when the people didn't have their say (though Cromwell was an absolute monarchist in all but name once he took charge). Democracy makes the people, the boss.
We are a parliamentary democracy dst, not a representative one.

This is basic stuff btw

I've nothing against the Brexit Party standing till the end of time, ignoring election after election with their one and only policy to get out of the EU.

You should have nothing against the Lib Dems wanting to remain either

And your example of the DUP is terrible, they have never accepted the GFA.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:17 pm

Lib Dems, the party who want to thwart Brexit. Now there's a big surprise for a poster who says he wants a deal.
Last edited by Elizabeth on Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:18 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:I'd be happy with an election on the 1st November, it makes perfect sense. Shelve Brexit for a month or two and then use a GE to break the deadlock.
As Brexit will be the only real issue in the GE someone should emerge with a consensus be it deal, no deal or remain or people's vote.

I would prefer Brexit to be delivered in some form now, leavers will be happy and remainers will just have to start a new fight to rejoin.
And, as a fervent remainer, where will your vote go?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:18 pm

If it be your will wrote:This is it: Labour are going to lose to all sides, aren't they?
You have to remember that the Brexit Party splits the Con vote as well up here at a guess (and Lab as well, but not as much as you think)

I know you don't want to believe it, but Lab gains about four more votes to the one it loses if it back remain.

I mean, why else has Corbyn changed his tune?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by tiger76 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:20 pm

dsr wrote:Jo Swinson's stated policy is to Remain in the EU even if there is a second referendum that votes Leave again.
That might be the case but a fair amount of voters will vote for such a policy,hence why they'll make gains if an early election is held.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:20 pm

If it be your will wrote:And, as a fervent remainer, where will your vote go?
He lives in Spain, not sure he can vote to be honest.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:25 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:You have to remember that the Brexit Party splits the Con vote as well up here at a guess.

I know you don't want to believe it, but Lab gains about four more votes to the one it loses if it back remain.

I mean, why else has Corbyn changed his tune?
Yes, that one was bandied about at the CLPs!

Where the hell are these 4 votes we gained?? We've slumped another 10% in the polls since then!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:28 pm

If it be your will wrote:Yes, that one was bandied about at the CLPs!

Where the hell are these 4 votes we gained?? We've slumped another 10% in the polls since then!
I think you are in a tough position mate if its any help.

The country is splitting everyday into "No Deal" and "No Brexit" camps.

I want a deal, but I'd vote remain ahead of "No Deal" and each time I read more and more about how the Conservatives are pushing towards a "No Deal" by default, my desire for a deal disappears a little more.

Put it one way, I don't think anything will sort out this split, which kinda of defeats the object of a compromise anywhere.

Hand on heart, reading the posts of dsr, crosspool, colburn, ringo, do you think they are even remotely interested in a compromise?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Burnley Ace » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:35 pm

Is it correct that there will be a number of voters that will be eligible to vote in the election that weren’t eligible to vote in the referendum? (Not just the ones who have turned 18]

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CombatClaret » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:38 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:I'd be happy with an election on the 1st November, it makes perfect sense. Shelve Brexit for a month or two and then use a GE to break the deadlock.
As Brexit will be the only real issue in the GE someone should emerge with a consensus be it deal, no deal or remain or people's vote.

I would prefer Brexit to be delivered in some form now, leavers will be happy and remainers will just have to start a new fight to rejoin.
Not as happy with a GE, they should rightly be fought on multiple issues. It is not clear If a vote for any one party is a vote for a deal, no deal, or remain. Brexit crosses party lines.
A second referendum is the most obvious way to deal with this shambles now people can see the options.

Two votes, in the same style as Tory leadership vote:
- No Deal
- May Deal
- Remain
Remove the least popular and go to a final two options vote. That way everyone can prove what they claimed everyone else voted for.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by tiger76 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:40 pm

Elizabeth wrote:Did I read that someone posted that the SNP and Lib Dems have been advocating a soft brexit?
That beggers belief. What planet are some posters on?
Should drug testing be a condition before some are allowed to post?
If you've been following this as you claim you should be aware the SNP have offered a compromise of remaining in the CU and Single Market,now you might not agree with that policy,and it's possible that they've changed their priorities,given the threat of no-deal.

This is their official website from 2016 https://www.snp.org/scotland-brexit-pla ... d-to-know/

Seems pretty clear to me and i don't partake in drug use,but thanks for caring.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by SonofPog » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:43 pm

I'd be happy with an election on the 1st November, it makes perfect sense. Shelve Brexit for a month or two and then use a GE to break the deadlock.
As Brexit will be the only real issue in the GE someone should emerge with a consensus be it deal, no deal or remain or people's vote.
As much as i've been against a 2nd ref, I believe it would be a better way to break the deadlock,

As lets face it, a GE now would be a 2nd ref in all but name. BoJo is asking for a majority to give him a chance to keep "No Deal" on the table, allowing him to negotiate a deal. (or force through No Deal - which imo is far more likely looking at the current make up of his inner circle).

A GE might give BoJo a majority to put through a No Deal Brexit true, but the nature of a GE means that it isn't as representative as a ref, for example, I personally live in a safe tory seat, there's almost zero point me voting in a GE.

In an alternative universe somewhere, a better MP than we posses has passed a bill stating that all parties are suspended and that all MPs are independent and part of a National Unity Government (or something along those lines) this Government will continue until Brexit has been completed and we could have had a grown up conversation about how to go about the whole thing. As it currently stands, i'm not sure there's any political situation that could actually hold a majority in Parliament to get its agenda passed. Be it, No Deal, Deal or Remain.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:50 pm

If it be your will wrote:I think they'll get absolutely hammered. The decision to abandon the leave vote left Labour with this indefensible nonsense of a Brexit policy. I can see how it happened, mind. I'd been attending CLP meetings till recently, and there was a universal, unwavering belief among members that switching to a full remain position would lead to a surge in support. I'd did my best to explain how they couldn't be more wrong, but there you go.

Now I'm expected to knock on the same doors I did in 2017 and say "Actually, when I assured you that Labour absolutely would deliver Brexit, only our priority in the negotiations would be to deliver a Brexit that benefits the average person rather than the billionaires, I was lying to you. We had no intention of delivering Brexit at all. Sorry about that, but will you vote for us again anyway?"
There was a lot of micro polling and analysis by constituency that suggested switching to remain would gain labour more seats.

Personally I wasn't 100% convinced by it but there is a chance it may work

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:50 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I think you are in a tough position mate if its any help.

The country is splitting everyday into "No Deal" and "No Brexit" camps.

I want a deal, but I'd vote remain ahead of "No Deal" and each time I read more and more about how the Conservatives are pushing towards a "No Deal" by default, my desire for a deal disappears a little more.

Put it one way, I don't think anything will sort out this split, which kinda of defeats the object of a compromise anywhere.

Hand on heart, reading the posts of dsr, crosspool, colburn, ringo, do you think they are even remotely interested in a compromise?
Interested in a compromise? A compromise can't happen.

For one thing, it's like a compromise between married couple when one wants a divorce and the other doesn't. There is no reasonable compromise.

For another, pre-referendum the UK voted to leave for political reasons while the EU wanted us to stay for both political and economic reasons; but post-referendum, the UK wants a financial deal that is good for both parties but the EU wants a financial deal that is bad for the UK. As you and many others have said, in the EU's mind the UK can't be seen to leave the EU and profit by it because other countries may leave as well.

So how to get a compromise between one party that wants a good financial deal and one that doesn't? Like the referendum, it's a binary choice. No compromise can satisfy both parties.

So it's a choice between going our own way or going the EU's way. Take your pick. You know which I choose.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:53 pm

SonofPog wrote:I personally live in a safe tory seat, there's almost zero point me voting in a GE.
Not true. It means that there is no chance of getting rid of your Tory in the current general election, I dare say; but if you want to vote in an alternative, you need to build up a bit of momentum. 5,000 votes in one election, 8,000 the next, perhaps catch the Tories in a bad year and get 15,000 votes and you're on the way to building a seat where the non-Tory has a chance.

I'm not saying it will work. What I'm saying is that if the people who oppose the incumbent don't come out to vote, the incumbent will have a job for life.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:53 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Not following you at all.

Maybe I'm just a bit tired. I'll have another look in the morning with a clearer head.

And the daft name calling is a joke btw, don't take it seriously, you are far too sensible to go full Ringo.
Lancasterclaret wrote:Two personal attacks today so far. You do know how that looks yeah?
You earlier today and only after I stated a fact. Which was that the chief economist at Deutsch bank and George Pascoe Watson were paid to give their opinions. Where as you weren't.

Mr Pot, may I introduce you to Mr Kettle?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by SonofPog » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:57 pm

dsr wrote:….I'm not saying it will work. What I'm saying is that if the people who oppose the incumbent don't come out to vote, the incumbent will have a job for life.
Indeed, which is why I still vote. But when the majority is 22k in an election as badly run as TM's, there's not a lot of hope. :lol:

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Rileybobs » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:59 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:You earlier today and only after I stated a fact. Which was that the chief economist at Deutsch bank and George Pascoe Watson were paid to give their opinions. Where as you weren't.

Mr Pot, may I introduce you to Mr Kettle?
How many times do you need to introduce Messrs Pot and Kettle? Aren’t they well acquainted by now?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CombatClaret » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:03 am

dsr wrote: For another, pre-referendum the UK voted to leave for political reasons while the EU wanted us to stay for both political and economic reasons; but post-referendum, the UK wants a financial deal that is good for both parties but the EU wants a financial deal that is bad for the UK. As you and many others have said, in the EU's mind the UK can't be seen to leave the EU and profit by it because other countries may leave as well.
You've stated this many times, and live the 'we all voted for no deal' you are ascribing motives to others without any justification or proof. I remember a lot about the wonderful deals promised pre-referendum and and how much more economically prosperous we could be, able to sail nimbly on the global financial waters once we cut ourselves loose from the sinking EU. These were economic arguments and probably persuaded a few, so how can you say we only voted for political reasons?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:09 am

SonofPog wrote:Indeed, which is why I still vote. But when the majority is 22k in an election as badly run as TM's, there's not a lot of hope. :lol:
22k, that's nowt. My MP has a 35k majority!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:13 am

CombatClaret wrote:You've stated this many times, and live the 'we all voted for no deal' you are ascribing motives to others without any justification or proof. I remember a lot about the wonderful deals promised pre-referendum and and how much more economically prosperous we could be, able to sail nimbly on the global financial waters once we cut ourselves loose from the sinking EU. These were economic arguments and probably persuaded a few, so how can you say we only voted for political reasons?
The UK government and civil service, lead by the Chancellor and Prime Minister, gave all sorts of detailed and confident predictions of the immediate financial meltdown that would follow a Brexit vote. On the other hand, as you point out, some optimists pointed to intangible and incalculable benefits that might come later, and another optimists and hyperbole merchant put a misleading slogan on the side of a bus. Anyone who weighed up the evidence on both sides and decided that financially we were better off out, did so for political reasons.

I have never said we all voted for no deal. What I have said was that we on the Brexit side all voted to leave. And however much the Remain party continue to swear that selling our eldest daughters to the slave trade is still better than leaving without a deal, I hold that if leaving with a sensible deal isn't possible, then leaving without a deal is the only way to proceed.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:15 am

Rileybobs wrote:How many times do you need to introduce Messrs Pot and Kettle?
Depends on how many times hypocrisy pops up from the usual suspects I guess.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:15 am

aggi wrote:22k, that's nowt. My MP has a 35k majority!
My parents once arrived back from a day out five minutes before the polls closed, nipped into the polling station just in time, and both voted Liberal. (It was a local election!) And the Liberal won the seat by 1 vote.

It may be a while before aggi and SonofPog get the chance to do that - but keep plugging away!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CombatClaret » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:21 am

dsr wrote:The UK government and civil service, lead by the Chancellor and Prime Minister, gave all sorts of detailed and confident predictions of the immediate financial meltdown that would follow a Brexit vote. On the other hand, as you point out, some optimists pointed to intangible and incalculable benefits that might come later, and another optimists and hyperbole merchant put a misleading slogan on the side of a bus. Anyone who weighed up the evidence on both sides and decided that financially we were better off out, did so for political reasons.
Wait, so If I voted to Leave because I thought the UK would be better off, I did not vote for economic reasons? :lol: :lol:

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by SonofPog » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:23 am

Which is another problem with a two party FPTP system dsr, the party I want to vote for has no chance of winning, the 2nd also has no chance of winning, leaving me to continually vote for someone I don't want, but whom I like a little more than the person that will win. Is it any wonder turnout is bad in that case? and what if I move, I'll have to start the process all over again.

I believe this actually lead to the leave vote winning the ref. When UKIP got 12% of the vote in 2015 and no seats, they'll be a reaction to that. People want to be heard. Anywho, the PR debate is for another time. Back when we all really care that the Lib Dems broke one manifesto promise when forming a coalition. Ahh, such naïve times.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:31 am

CombatClaret wrote:Wait, so If I voted to Leave because I thought the UK would be better off, I did not vote for economic reasons? :lol: :lol:
What I'm trying to say is that anyone who believed and believes that the UK will be financially better off post-Brexit is virtually certain to be someone who is temperamnetally and politically opposed to the EU anyway. I doubt that many people who tend towards liking the EU and thinking that the EU is a good thing for the UK, would have changed their mind based on the financial evidence (clearly wrong though much of it has been shown to be, especially that relating to the immediate aftermath of the vote) that was available to them.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CombatClaret » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:33 am

dsr wrote:What I'm trying to say is that anyone who believed and believes that the UK will be financially better off post-Brexit is virtually certain to be someone who is temperamnetally and politically opposed to the EU anyway. I doubt that many people who tend towards liking the EU and thinking that the EU is a good thing for the UK, would have changed their mind based on the financial evidence (clearly wrong though much of it has been shown to be, especially that relating to the immediate aftermath of the vote) that was available to them.
Maybe just avoid grand sweeping statements which attribute motive to people you don't know, like:
the UK voted to leave for political reasons while the EU wanted us to stay for both political and economic reasons

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:36 am

CombatClaret wrote:Maybe just avoid grand sweeping statements which attribute motive to people you don't know, like:
I may have posted some controversial stuff, but I don't think that last statement is going to raise many hackles.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CombatClaret » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:51 am

dsr wrote:I may have posted some controversial stuff, but I don't think that last statement is going to raise many hackles.
Maybe not, but it's an example of a falsehood or misrepresentation quietly slipped by in an attempt to justify an argument. Far to many of those around.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:57 am

CombatClaret wrote:Maybe not, but it's an example of a falsehood or misrepresentation quietly slipped by in an attempt to justify an argument. Far to many of those around.
Falsehood? If I say "The EU wanted us to stay for both political and economic reasons", then you say "liar" !? :shock:

Which bit is the lie? Is it a lie that the EU wanted us to stay, or is it a lie that it was for political reasons, or is it a lie that it was for economic reasons? Or is it a lie that the UK voted to leave for political reasons?

It is possible to say something that isn't true without lying. Now, it may well be false that the EU wanted us to stay or that the EU believed that having the UK onside was better for the EU's economy or that the UK voted out in spite of the political wonder that is the EU. But if those things are false, it doesn't make me a liar. It just makes me wrong. For what it's worth, I still genuinely believe that there was an extremely strong political element ot the Brexit vote. But if that isn't true, it doesn't mean I'm a liar.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Burnley Ace » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:09 am

dsr wrote: Which bit is the lie? Is it a lie that the EU wanted us to stay, or is it a lie that it was for political reasons, or is it a lie that it was for economic reasons? Or is it a lie that the UK voted to leave for political reasons?.
Perhaps it’s because the line between political and economic is blurred. If you voted to leave because you don’t want immigrants depressing the labour market is that political or economic? If you want the UK to negotiate it’s own trade deals? Etc

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by SonofPog » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:39 am

the UK wants a financial deal that is good for both parties but the EU wants a financial deal that is bad for the UK. As you and many others have said, in the EU's mind the UK can't be seen to leave the EU and profit by it because other countries may leave as well.
1) Does the UK really know what it wants at this point? for example lots of people say they want a Free Trade Agreement, but look at CETA, this binds Canada to acting and following lots of EU guidelines, there is rarely a FTA without some form of regulatory alignment, and as EU would be the bigger partner, they'll be the one making the requirements.

2) "The EU wants a financial deal that is bad for the UK", that's a subtle change, but an important one, a more correct line would be imo, "the EU wants a financial deal that is not as good as the UK currently gets". As it cannot have a non member ( and a former member at that) retain the full benefits from being a member.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:51 am

aggi wrote:There was a lot of micro polling and analysis by constituency that suggested switching to remain would gain labour more seats.

Personally I wasn't 100% convinced by it but there is a chance it may work
Perhaps that was the result of the polling. It's easy for someone to say they would be more likely to vote Labour if they went full remain. But what these opinion polls don't do is see it through to its conclusion. They don't ask: "Would you be more likely to vote for a Labour Party that went full remain, taking into consideration the party is led by 2 raging eurosceptics - so of course they'll have to lie a lot and look ridiculous - and also considering they've already made a full commitment to leave, then made a commitment to have a 2nd referendum, then somehow morph this into a second referendum where they will campaign against their own deal?" do they??

That's the problem - the simpletons in the Labour Party demanding a full remain position didn't see it through to its logical conclusion. That Labour would be left with an incoherent diarrhoea of a policy, hence why the '4 votes gained for every 1 lost' never materialised.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:53 am

If it be your will wrote:And, as a fervent remainer, where will your vote go?
As correctly stated I am denied a vote but I would vote remain, unless of course somebody promised to spend a load of money on the NHS, printed it on the side of a bus and drove round the country in it, then I'd deffo vote for them.
This user liked this post: Bordeauxclaret

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:54 am

CombatClaret wrote:Not as happy with a GE, they should rightly be fought on multiple issues. It is not clear If a vote for any one party is a vote for a deal, no deal, or remain. Brexit crosses party lines.
A second referendum is the most obvious way to deal with this shambles now people can see the options.

Two votes, in the same style as Tory leadership vote:
- No Deal
- May Deal
- Remain
Remove the least popular and go to a final two options vote. That way everyone can prove what they claimed everyone else voted for.
What a terrible proposal. None of those are any use, especially May's deal, which just about pisses off everyone. I voted leave and would again but would rather remain for now than hand all the cards to the EU.

A GE must happen now but labour are worried about the outcome. Bet they wished they had backed may now.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CombatClaret » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:34 am

summitclaret wrote:What a terrible proposal. None of those are any use, especially May's deal, which just about pisses off everyone. I voted leave and would again but would rather remain for now than hand all the cards to the EU.

A GE must happen now but labour are worried about the outcome. Bet they wished they had backed may now.
May's deal is the only one on the table so it represents a deal, May couldn't improve it and Boris hasn't either bespite everyone saying he would get a better deal because he was a proper Brexiteer & his personality...
So I think you have to include the deal we have in any vote.

And having those three option & removing one in first round people would have all options open to them and there's less dilution of the leave vote.

If people are blaming parliament for the impass I don't know how slightly changing the composition of parliament improves things.
Brexit crosses party lines so why try to solve it with a GE.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:40 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:He lives in Spain, not sure he can vote to be honest.
Can I say that at the moment I'm content for this to go on forever?

I studied politics at A Level and went to the Labour Party Conference one year and also saw Gerald Kaufmann speak at Manchester University so I've always been interested but not to this level. I never thought I'd find Parliament Live so compelling. There are some incredible characters and great arguments from both sides.

This week was sort of like a Helm's Deep moment but the great big deciding battle for brexit is yet to come which is shaping up to be pretty awesome, especially if the opposition parties can get a single, cohesive message together. Unfortunately Farage did that before anybody with his foolproof "Brexit Party", one message, one goal, one vision, one objective, perfect for the voter with one brain cell but stunning in its simplicity; a rebranded UKIP without all the extraneous baggage. Until there's a "Remain Party" or even a "Rejoin Party" then the opposition will struggle to match that clarity.

All good though, keep it coming. We live in interesting times.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:46 am

CombatClaret wrote:May's deal is the only one on the table so it represents a deal, May couldn't improve it and Boris hasn't either bespite everyone saying he would get a better deal because he was a proper Brexiteer & his personality...
So I think you have to include the deal we have in any vote.

And having those three option & removing one in first round people would have all options open to them and there's less dilution of the leave vote.

If people are blaming parliament for the impass I don't know how slightly changing the composition of parliament improves things.
Brexit crosses party lines so why try to solve it with a GE.
Labour would love a general election but as it's a feeble ruse to inflict a no deal Brexit, a true Hobson's Choice, they have been forced to turn it down.

Now Boris and the right wing media are going to call Corbyn a chicken to demonstrate to the country just how desperate they are and how low they've sunk.

It'd be laughable in the schoolyard.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:51 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:Depends on how many times hypocrisy pops up from the usual suspects I guess.
Mr Pot, may I introduce you to Mr Kettle.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:02 am

Just seen that France now opposes not just the backstop removal but also a divergence of regulatory alignment - they refuse to have different regulations 25 miles from Calais.

On the flip side diplomats say Macron is adamant we have to leave (for our sake) because it was the French vote on the EU Constitution that led to the Gilet Jaunes and Le Pen.

These mixed messages all over Europe sum up perfectly why the UK needs to leave, with or without a deal. There is no chance of this ever coming to an end otherwise, unless we vote for May’s deal out of sheer boredom.

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