Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[Darthlaw]

Now Boris and the right wing media are going to call Corbyn a chicken to demonstrate to the country just how desperate they are and how low they've sunk.

Given his comments on being ready for a general election twice this week, would you rather the media just call him a liar? Here's a link to the other 48 times, this year, he's said hes ready for an election, btw.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/t ... this-year/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And a tweet from the man himself, from July 28th.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1155422186049560576" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Spijed]

From the BBC:

Could the government call an election now?

Professor Sir John Curtice

Polling expert

Technically, there's some doubt.

Because Prime Minister Boris Johnson tried and failed to use the Fixed Terms Parliaments Act to call an election on Wednesday, it may not be possible to call an election using the same method again, says political analyst Professor Sir John Curtice.

"There is a question mark as to whether or not the government will be allowed to bring the same motion back again on Monday or Tuesday because the convention is you cannot deal with the same issue inside the House of Commons in the same session," he says.

The government might be forced to call an election another way, says Sir John, for example by trying to pass a bill which says notwithstanding the Fixed Terms Parliaments Act we're going to have an election on this date.

"Then the problem is potentially because the government has said we are proroguing Parliament next week will there be time to get such a bill through?" adds Sir John.

[martin_p]

Given his comments on being ready for a general election twice this week, would you rather the media just call him a liar? Here's a link to the other 48 times, this year, he's said hes ready for an election, btw.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/t ... this-year/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And a tweet from the man himself, from July 28th.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1155422186049560576" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That’s all very well, but when it’s clear to everyone it’s a trap to try and thwart the attempts to stop no deal he’s not going to fall for it is he. The media should be recognising that fact whether they agree with it or not. There’ll be a general election before Christmas anyway. Johnson should be concentrating his efforts on getting this deal over the line that he reckons is so close despite the EU not knowing about it.

[Lancasterclaret]

Just seen that France now opposes not just the backstop removal but also a divergence of regulatory alignment - they refuse to have different regulations 25 miles from Calais.

On the flip side diplomats say Macron is adamant we have to leave (for our sake) because it was the French vote on the EU Constitution that led to the Gilet Jaunes and Le Pen.

These mixed messages all over Europe sum up perfectly why the UK needs to leave, with or without a deal. There is no chance of this ever coming to an end otherwise, unless we vote for May’s deal out of sheer boredom.

What a piece of luck that your analysis of the situation always ends up with your prefered outcome.

Uncanny

[Lancasterclaret]

Given his comments on being ready for a general election twice this week, would you rather the media just call him a liar? Here's a link to the other 48 times, this year, he's said hes ready for an election, btw.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/t ... this-year/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And a tweet from the man himself, from July 28th.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1155422186049560576" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All fair, but the reason he's not called a GE is for one simple reason.

No one trusts Johnson not to just move the date so we crash out with a "No Deal"

It really is that simple, no one trusts Johnson.

Do you?

[martin_p]

From the BBC:

Could the government call an election now?

Professor Sir John Curtice

Polling expert

Technically, there's some doubt.

Because Prime Minister Boris Johnson tried and failed to use the Fixed Terms Parliaments Act to call an election on Wednesday, it may not be possible to call an election using the same method again, says political analyst Professor Sir John Curtice.

"There is a question mark as to whether or not the government will be allowed to bring the same motion back again on Monday or Tuesday because the convention is you cannot deal with the same issue inside the House of Commons in the same session," he says.

The government might be forced to call an election another way, says Sir John, for example by trying to pass a bill which says notwithstanding the Fixed Terms Parliaments Act we're going to have an election on this date.

"Then the problem is potentially because the government has said we are proroguing Parliament next week will there be time to get such a bill through?" adds Sir John.

It would be beyond hilarious if it was Johnson’s prorogation of Parliament that stopped him getting an election before 31st October.

[SonofPog]

The reason why Labour (and other parties) didn't vote for a GE now is out there, that I can only assuming you, like the right wing press are deliberately ignoring it.

"Labour says it will only back an election when it can be completely sure that Johnson will be unable to force a no-deal Brexit on 31 October. The party is consulting lawyers and other opposition parties, which they say is necessary because they do not trust the PM to keep his word or to follow constitutional norms"

[Spijed]

Nore from BBC:

Hold tight as political analyst Professor Sir John Curtice explains how the timing of an election could affect the opposition parties' chance of success.

He says the bill which is currently going through Parliament does not rule out a no-deal Brexit on its own - but gives the House of Commons the opportunity on 19 October to rule out no-deal if the PM has not struck a deal by then.

"Therefore the argument is whether or not you need to delay the election so that the House of Commons is still sitting on 19 October and therefore the provisions of the bill could be used to stop a no-deal Brexit," Sir John says.

"In that event, you're basically talking at an election not taking place earlier than five weeks after that so you're looking towards the tail end of November. That's the argument that's going inside the Labour Party and the SNP for delaying."

But he adds: "The argument on the other side [within the opposition parties] is if Boris Johnson does come back from the European Council with a deal and can get it through the House of Commons then you will be giving an opportunity to have an election just after having had his success in getting us outside the EU.

"It's the tension between those two things, the opposition is trying to work out.

"The safest thing for the opposition to do from their point of view is simply to say no to an election now and wait to see what happens on 19 October and then facilitate an election if it seems to be in their interest."

[RingoMcCartney]

Mr Pot, may I introduce you to Mr Kettle.

Mr Unoriginal Pot , to kinda lose the effect, may I regurgitate someone elses line, and introduce you to the equally , Unoriginal Mr Kettle!?



Have a fantastic day Ladies.!



(No doubt the sad sack Parody will be along at some point. That's a dilemma for him/her. Confirm what I suggest or remain silent ,! Stick or twist , log in / log out attention craving , crazed loner)

[martin_p]

(No doubt the sad sack Parody will be along at some point. That's a dilemma for him/her. Confirm what I suggest or remain silent ,! Stick or twist , log in / log out attention craving , crazed loner)

Some rare self awareness there Wrongo!

[summitclaret]

May's deal is the only one on the table so it represents a deal, May couldn't improve it and Boris hasn't either bespite everyone saying he would get a better deal because he was a proper Brexiteer & his personality...
So I think you have to include the deal we have in any vote.

And having those three option & removing one in first round people would have all options open to them and there's less dilution of the leave vote.

If people are blaming parliament for the impass I don't know how slightly changing the composition of parliament improves things.
Brexit crosses party lines so why try to solve it with a GE.

Why would you put a thrice defeated/ thrashed deal in front of the public?

What Boris is doing has to be tried imo. The remainer HOC has blocked progress from day 1. A brexiteer should be given a chance to get a deal and there is a chance that threatening no deal could work.

We seem to be heading for something like this in a GE.

Tory manifesto - we want a deal with a free trade deal, but if the EU insist on locking us in potentially forever without a say ( May's deal) we will leave with no deal if we have to. No if no buts.

Labour - who knows and as they need a conference to decide policy they will probably fudge it to try and say 1 thing to leavers and 1 remainers.

Lib (dems) - ******** to Brexit

Brexit - no deal only.

If you like me want to leave with a deal worth having then in places lime Burnley its a no brainer vote brexit. In places like pendle and rossendale vote Tory. The public will work it out for themselves area by area.

If you want to remain vote lib dem.

If you want to reward Labour for trying to have it both ways then fair enough.

[AndrewJB]

Nore from BBC:

Hold tight as political analyst Professor Sir John Curtice explains how the timing of an election could affect the opposition parties' chance of success.

He says the bill which is currently going through Parliament does not rule out a no-deal Brexit on its own - but gives the House of Commons the opportunity on 19 October to rule out no-deal if the PM has not struck a deal by then.

"Therefore the argument is whether or not you need to delay the election so that the House of Commons is still sitting on 19 October and therefore the provisions of the bill could be used to stop a no-deal Brexit," Sir John says.

"In that event, you're basically talking at an election not taking place earlier than five weeks after that so you're looking towards the tail end of November. That's the argument that's going inside the Labour Party and the SNP for delaying."

But he adds: "The argument on the other side [within the opposition parties] is if Boris Johnson does come back from the European Council with a deal and can get it through the House of Commons then you will be giving an opportunity to have an election just after having had his success in getting us outside the EU.

"It's the tension between those two things, the opposition is trying to work out.

"The safest thing for the opposition to do from their point of view is simply to say no to an election now and wait to see what happens on 19 October and then facilitate an election if it seems to be in their interest."

Johnson is PM in name only now. He won't be able to return from negotiations with anything other than May's deal, although I don't think he had any intentions of getting a deal at all, but just crashing us out. Of course he'd prefer an election, but it will come down to when the opposition choose to do it, not him. Let's not rush things, but it'll be instructive for the country to see him blather on acting like a schoolyard bully in the commons, throwing petty insults, and avoiding questions.

[Steve1956]

Serious question.....who will win the General election,serious answers only please.

[dsr]

Johnson is PM in name only now. He won't be able to return from negotiations with anything other than May's deal, although I don't think he had any intentions of getting a deal at all, but just crashing us out. Of course he'd prefer an election, but it will come down to when the opposition choose to do it, not him. Let's not rush things, but it'll be instructive for the country to see him blather on acting like a schoolyard bully in the commons, throwing petty insults, and avoiding questions.

So it's opposition policy that the country has no effective PM? At a time like this?

[martin_p]

So it's opposition policy that the country has no effective PM? At a time like this?

No it’s the opposition policy to stop no deal on 31st October.

[Lancasterclaret]

So it's opposition policy that the country has no effective PM? At a time like this?

100% self inflicted dsr

Started in 2017 with an election 100% designed to destroy the Labour Party, through to removing May for doing the best she could, all the way through to Johnson thinking shutting down parliament was perfectly fine.

Its all his own fault, and he's going to have to stew in it for a while.

[Darthlaw]

All fair, but the reason he's not called a GE is for one simple reason.

No one trusts Johnson not to just move the date so we crash out with a "No Deal"

It really is that simple, no one trusts Johnson.

Do you?

I've already agreed with you on this point. The balance of probability, given the evidence you have put forward, suggests he's not. It may all very well be a good ruse to show the EU that he is prepared to walk away with no deal, whilst actually trying to improve the terms of the current agreement, but it's not evident if he is.

To answer your question directly - I trust that he can do the job of getting the UK out of the EU. Do I trust that he is not aiming for no deal? Unfortunately not.

[AndrewJB]

So it's opposition policy that the country has no effective PM? At a time like this?

Johnson made himself ineffective by taking a hard line with his own MPs. Frankly his "Trumpian" kind of attitude, of using whatever means fair or foul to force a position on the country, has shown our democracy in a better light. I would say this regardless of whether or not I agreed with his position - had it been Corbyn or Lucas doing the same thing, I'd be equally glad they failed. I hope that whatever comes out of the next election (and I hope it's a bit of a hung parliament in which progressive parties have the most seats), a more considered and consensual politics emerges. Under both May and Johnson we've sorely missed that.

[summitclaret]

Johnson made himself ineffective by taking a hard line with his own MPs. Frankly his "Trumpian" kind of attitude, of using whatever means fair or foul to force a position on the country, has shown our democracy in a better light. I would say this regardless of whether or not I agreed with his position - had it been Corbyn or Lucas doing the same thing, I'd be equally glad they failed. I hope that whatever comes out of the next election (and I hope it's a bit of a hung parliament in which progressive parties have the most seats), a more considered and consensual politics emerges. Under both May and Johnson we've sorely missed that.

.

So have you given up on a labour majority?

[Steve1956]

What I'm hearing is Boris/Nigel pact....unstoppable,sounds like a plan to me

[Mala591]

Conservatives likely to stand down in Burnley so the choice will be Brexit Party or Labour or Liberal Democrats

[claret2018]

What I'm hearing is Boris/Nigel pact....unstoppable,sounds like a plan to me

I think this would split the tories in half. It would become the far right vs everyone else, and they’d lose by a mile.

[CombatClaret]

Why would you put a thrice defeated/ thrashed deal in front of the public?

What Boris is doing has to be tried imo. The remainer HOC has blocked progress from day 1. A brexiteer should be given a chance to get a deal and there is a chance that threatening no deal could work.
We seem to be heading for something like this in a GE.

Tory manifesto - we want a deal with a free trade deal, but if the EU insist on locking us in potentially forever without a say ( May's deal) we will leave with no deal if we have to. No if no buts.
Labour - who knows and as they need a conference to decide policy they will probably fudge it to try and say 1 thing to leavers and 1 remainers.
Lib (dems) - ******** to Brexit
Brexit - no deal only.
If you like me want to leave with a deal worth having then in places lime Burnley its a no brainer vote brexit. In places like pendle and rossendale vote Tory.
The public will work it out for themselves area by area.
If you want to remain vote lib dem.
If you want to reward Labour for trying to have it both ways then fair enough.

You put May's deal out there because it hasn't face the public. So many times I've heard from leavers and remainers 'I'd have taken May's deal instead of this'

Finally a GE isn't designed for the Brexit issue due to FPP and constituencies, it's not as simple as vote for the party which gives you the result you want. Even more people will feel disenfranchise when what they think is a Brexit vote is completely wasted in a party stronghold.

[elwaclaret]

Certainly mooted last night on Newsnight that the expulsions were already organised before the vote took place. One MP clearly claiming he got his deselection from his local seat within minutes of being informed of the whip withdrawn. Which can only suggest the night of the long knives was all pre-planned.

It may have been a bad day, but clearly not taken by surprise judging by that.

[aggi]

I'd be very surprised if the Brexit Party and Conservatives had a published pact. None of the major parties want to sit out of any seat, it makes them look weak. Also, you don't want to agree to work together until you know how many seats they're bringing to the table. A highly publicised pact with the Brexit party if they subsequently only win a couple of seats would be counter-productive.

In a lot of areas the Brexit party are probably mainly a threat to Labour. There are a lot of working class towns who will still refuse to vote Tory but would view the Brexit party as palatable.

[AndrewJB]

.

So have you given up on a labour majority?

I can't see that anyone will be able to accurately predict this until after the conferences have finished. By then it will be clearer what is happening with brexit, and we might actually have a clearer idea as to an election date.

In terms of Brexit itself, I don't think it would be a bad idea to convene a "citizen's assembly" to discuss the matter and come up with ideas about how a government could begin to resolve it. There would have to be strong rules about the evidence the assembly accept - so as few lies and misconceptions from either side are allowed to sway opinion. And if their meetings were televised, people would be able to follow the debate. It might even be they introduce new ideas to the debate that capture some of the public's imagination, and unlock new possibilities. It would be better than the gridlock we currently have.

[dsr]

Certainly mooted last night on Newsnight that the expulsions were already organised before the vote took place. One MP clearly claiming he got his deselection from his local seat within minutes of being informed of the whip withdrawn. Which can only suggest the night of the long knives was all pre-planned.

It may have been a bad day, but clearly not taken by surprise judging by that.

Well, several MPs have been saying for months if not years that they would vote against Brexit if it meant there was no deal attached. Would you expect the leadership to be taken by surprise?

[Lancasterclaret]

Jo Johnston has quit as a Minister and an MP

Thats the PMs brother

Johnston is in big, big, big trouble already

[summitclaret]

Jo Johnston has quit as a Minister and an MP

Thats the PMs brother

Johnston is in big, big, big trouble already

Yep. That's another remainer to tick off the list.

[Bordeauxclaret]

It’s all going really really well.

Again.

[elwaclaret]

Well, several MPs have been saying for months if not years that they would vote against Brexit if it meant there was no deal attached. Would you expect the leadership to be taken by surprise?

No but that had been the line taken by reporters. Now far from devastating, some at Antie Are now saying all this last couple of days were always part of the timeline... only the back lash severity has caused the least consternation.

I repeat, when I mooted the possible plan several months ago I was ridiculed. Labour as expected on the point of imploding over election strategies, and brexit going into an election.... next the guns will turn on The Liberal party, the South West, and domestic policy will be the targets.

The sands are already starting to Shift.

[Mala591]

No but that had been the line taken by reporters. Now far from devastating, some at Antie Are now saying all this last couple of days were always part of the timeline... only the back lash severity has caused the least consternation.

I repeat, when I mooted the possible plan several months ago I was ridiculed. Labour as expected on the point of imploding over election strategies, and brexit going into an election.... next the guns will turn on The Liberal party, the South West, and domestic policy will be the targets.

The sands are already starting to Shift.

...and the dust on the current Withdrawal Agreement is being disturbed by Lazarus like twitches...

[Lancasterclaret]

Yep. That's another remainer to tick off the list.

I know its not your style to listen to reality summit, but when you get a chance, you need to read what the experts (journalists from all papers, either Brexity, not Brexity or full on propaganda machines for Brexit) are tweeting.

His own brother, who backed him as leader and served in his government, has looked at what he's doing and gone saying this

"In recent weeks I’ve been torn between family loyalty and the national interest - it’s an unresolvable tension & time for others to take on my roles as MP & Minister."

He's telling everyone that Boris is not working in the national interest.

You understand that, yeah?

[Lancasterclaret]

BREAKING - Jo Johnston resigns to spend less time with his family

[Rick_Muller]

When your family doesn't even agree with you it must be bad...

jojohnson.JPG (53.39 KiB) Viewed 1738 times

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49594793" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[martin_p]

Looks like we got the wrong brother as a party leader.... again!

[Devils_Advocate]

No but that had been the line taken by reporters. Now far from devastating, some at Antie Are now saying all this last couple of days were always part of the timeline... only the back lash severity has caused the least consternation.

I repeat, when I mooted the possible plan several months ago I was ridiculed. Labour as expected on the point of imploding over election strategies, and brexit going into an election.... next the guns will turn on The Liberal party, the South West, and domestic policy will be the targets.

The sands are already starting to Shift.

What did you say a few months ago, bump up the post would be interesting to see your thoughts and how they have come to fruition.

[AndrewJB]

No but that had been the line taken by reporters. Now far from devastating, some at Antie Are now saying all this last couple of days were always part of the timeline... only the back lash severity has caused the least consternation.

I repeat, when I mooted the possible plan several months ago I was ridiculed. Labour as expected on the point of imploding over election strategies, and brexit going into an election.... next the guns will turn on The Liberal party, the South West, and domestic policy will be the targets.

The sands are already starting to Shift.

If this was a plan - to purge the Tory Party of MPs who won't support a no deal - then it's left Johnson a hostage to fortune, unable to bring on an election to get the chance to win more "no deal" seats. He's now stuck in limbo, until the opposition give him merciful release. I can't see how this is a good plan.

[Devils_Advocate]

BREAKING - Jo Johnston resigns to spend less time with his family

You must be following some of the same Twitter feeds as me!

[Lancasterclaret]

You must be following some of the same Twitter feeds as me!

Pretty much all of them tweeted the same gag, at the same time!

[elwaclaret]

...and the dust on the current Withdrawal Agreement is being disturbed by Lazarus like twitches...

I still expect a tweaked less nailed down agreement, which allows Britain to leave to pick up further detail in phase 2... as was always the initial intention, until the courts forced it unconstitutionally to start in parliament during phase one... the bit we usually hear nothing of.... we have not got to the bit where it should have got tough yet.

What a catastrophic waste of money the last three years of Brexit has been, and yet Remain still site the cost of Brexit as too high... what about the billions wasted so far in the fight to prevent Brexit? Would that money not have softened any possible impact of no deal considerably? Had the government been allowed to progress the bill in the normal legislative way?

[martin_p]

I still expect a tweaked less nailed down agreement, which allows Britain to leave to pick up further detail in phase 2... as was always the initial intention, until the courts forced it unconstitutionally to start in parliament during phase one... the bit we usually hear nothing of.... we have not got to the bit where it should have got tough yet.

What a catastrophic waste of money the last three years of Brexit has been, and yet Remain still site the cost of Brexit as too high... what about the billions wasted so far in the fight to prevent Brexit? Would that money not have softened any possible impact of no deal considerably? Had the government been allowed to progress the bill in the normal legislative way?

I’m what way we’re they not allowed to progress it in the normal way?

[Lancasterclaret]

I still expect a tweaked less nailed down agreement, which allows Britain to leave to pick up further detail in phase 2... as was always the initial intention, until the courts forced it unconstitutionally to start in parliament during phase one... the bit we usually hear nothing of.... we have not got to the bit where it should have got tough yet.

What a catastrophic waste of money the last three years of Brexit has been, and yet Remain still site the cost of Brexit as too high... what about the billions wasted so far in the fight to prevent Brexit? Would that money not have softened any possible impact of no deal considerably? Had the government been allowed to progress the bill in the normal legislative way?

There is so much of that is either untrue or inaccurate.

Care to state your source for that opinion elwa?

[elwaclaret]

I’m what way we’re they not allowed to progress it in the normal way?

In the normal course of events government bills are only debated in parliament once they are finalised. The lawyer who forced it into parliament a couple of weeks after the referendum even admits she did not truly know the devastation that would result.

[summitclaret]

I know its not your style to listen to reality summit, but when you get a chance, you need to read what the experts (journalists from all papers, either Brexity, not Brexity or full on propaganda machines for Brexit) are tweeting.

His own brother, who backed him as leader and served in his government, has looked at what he's doing and gone saying this

"In recent weeks I’ve been torn between family loyalty and the national interest - it’s an unresolvable tension & time for others to take on my roles as MP & Minister."

He's telling everyone that Boris is not working in the national interest.

You understand that, yeah?

I take in a broad range of info especially from sky news politics etc. Can't you see that Boris is implementing a strategic plan and it's all legal. You can tell he us onto something because of all the personal attacks and ridiculouscomments about him being ultra right. He's a one nation tory at heart.

Joe Johnson is just another remainer like his sister. He defines national interest one way. I define it as getting Brexit sorted now.

[BleedingClaret]

London Labour not wanting the election they've been threatening and demanding is laughable.
Even though I understand their reasons, officially it was not being tricked into the GE date being changed til after the 31/10 and a No Deal, but if with Hilary Benns Bill No deal can't happen without Parliaments agreement it seems having got themselves on the remain side when likely the majority of leave voters were Labour voters in their Northern Heartlands means that they now actually don't want a vote pre brexit. That and the fact their leader has for years voted against everything EU is still quite a remarkable pickle.
Whose been playing party politics?
Also I saw on twitter these saviours of the people
LABOUR
- Created bedroom tax
- Lied about Iraq
- Sold a hospital to the Private Sector
- Brought in disability assessments
- Built no houses
- Started Tuition fees
- Closed 252 mines
- Didn't read Lisbon Treaty
- Created the zero hour contract
- Signed over 100 PFI contracts

[Spijed]

The problem for Boris is that it's clear there is a big split within the Tory party.

Despite all the issues that Labour have you have got to hand it to them and their chief whip who has controlled everything perfectly.

[CombatClaret]

Remember these...

ads.jpg (370.41 KiB) Viewed 1713 times

[summitclaret]

The problem for Boris is that it's clear there is a big split within the Tory party.

Despite all the issues that Labour have you have got to hand it to them and their chief whip who has controlled everything perfectly.

Boris is doing exactly what he told rhe members he would in the leadership election. What's wrong with that?

If the remainers don't back him then they need to get out of the way. Simples.

[martin_p]

In the normal course of events government bills are only debated in parliament once they are finalised. The lawyer who forced it into parliament a couple of weeks after the referendum even admits she did not truly know the devastation that would result.

So what difference do you think it would have made? Was the Withdrawal Agreement and political declaration not the final version?