What on earth is a ‘tea kettle’ anyway?CombatClaret wrote:Remember these...
Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Labour can only win an election after Brexit or after a 2nd ReferendumSpijed wrote:The problem for Boris is that it's clear there is a big split within the Tory party.
Despite all the issues that Labour have you have got to hand it to them and their chief whip who has controlled everything perfectly.
If the Brexit they vote for is Theresa Mays deal then brexit isn't done....
A 2nd referendum will only be participated in by remain.....
What you handing to them?
The fact that they are now on the opposite side of the issue than their core voters?
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
At this rate the Labour party will be the biggest party if Boris keeps sacking everyone, or they resign.summitclaret wrote:If the remainers don't back him then they need to get out of the way. Simples.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Europe has been the Tory parties Achilles heel for over 30 years. Asking them to sort out Brexit was about stupid as giving a bunch of kids a box of matches and then shutting them in a fireworks factory with no lights.Spijed wrote:The problem for Boris is that it's clear there is a big split within the Tory party.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
But if the election is after we have left then they will be on the same side - NHS, schools, foodbanks etc.BleedingClaret wrote:The fact that they are now on the opposite side of the issue than their core voters?
That's why the timing is crucial for them.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Well the first one on the list isn’t true, but do you think Jeremy Corbyn is for or against the things on your list. Comparing the Labour Party of today with that under Blair is a bit like comparing the Burnley of today to that under Chris Waddle, it’s 20 years ago, things have changed!BleedingClaret wrote:London Labour not wanting the election they've been threatening and demanding is laughable.
Even though I understand their reasons, officially it was not being tricked into the GE date being changed til after the 31/10 and a No Deal, but if with Hilary Benns Bill No deal can't happen without Parliaments agreement it seems having got themselves on the remain side when likely the majority of leave voters were Labour voters in their Northern Heartlands means that they now actually don't want a vote pre brexit. That and the fact their leader has for years voted against everything EU is still quite a remarkable pickle.
Whose been playing party politics?
Also I saw on twitter these saviours of the people
LABOUR
- Created bedroom tax
- Lied about Iraq
- Sold a hospital to the Private Sector
- Brought in disability assessments
- Built no houses
- Started Tuition fees
- Closed 252 mines
- Didn't read Lisbon Treaty
- Created the zero hour contract
- Signed over 100 PFI contracts
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
People who believed these really need to understand how they were manipulated, and watch The Great Hack on NetflixCombatClaret wrote:Remember these...
https://www.netflix.com/title/80117542" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
There's so much of this stuff on the internet. And a lot of it (such as the list above) is aimed at people who take scant interest in politics. I mean, the bedroom tax wasn't created by Labour, and of all the rest of those things, the Tories took them to the next level once they got into power (and were very enthusiastic about the Iraq War). A list of things the Labour Party is now against, and that the Tory Party has been doing for the last decade.BleedingClaret wrote:London Labour not wanting the election they've been threatening and demanding is laughable.
Even though I understand their reasons, officially it was not being tricked into the GE date being changed til after the 31/10 and a No Deal, but if with Hilary Benns Bill No deal can't happen without Parliaments agreement it seems having got themselves on the remain side when likely the majority of leave voters were Labour voters in their Northern Heartlands means that they now actually don't want a vote pre brexit. That and the fact their leader has for years voted against everything EU is still quite a remarkable pickle.
Whose been playing party politics?
Also I saw on twitter these saviours of the people
LABOUR
- Created bedroom tax
- Lied about Iraq
- Sold a hospital to the Private Sector
- Brought in disability assessments
- Built no houses
- Started Tuition fees
- Closed 252 mines
- Didn't read Lisbon Treaty
- Created the zero hour contract
- Signed over 100 PFI contracts
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Admittedly I'm in that Category pre BrexitAndrewJB wrote:There's so much of this stuff on the internet. And a lot of it (such as the list above) is aimed at people who take scant interest in politics. I mean, the bedroom tax wasn't created by Labour, and of all the rest of those things, the Tories took them to the next level once they got into power (and were very enthusiastic about the Iraq War). A list of things the Labour Party is now against, and that the Tory Party has been doing for the last decade.
I did nearly write that I hadn't check the facts.....
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Yeah, the last three days have really shown his strategic genius.summitclaret wrote: Can't you see that Boris is implementing a strategic plan and it's all legal.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Crikey, Jo Johnson has knifed his brother in a Millibandesque way.....
They are worried about the moderates being purged (despite Boris’s domestic agenda being more moderate than anything that bunch did).
If I were them I would now worry about the future of the party. The Tory party and Labour Party are good counterbalances. If the Tories fall......we’re buggered. Whether you vote Tory or not. I see them on life support.
At this rate Farage will have 52% of the vote to himself. A terrifying prospect, even for a Brexit voter.
They are worried about the moderates being purged (despite Boris’s domestic agenda being more moderate than anything that bunch did).
If I were them I would now worry about the future of the party. The Tory party and Labour Party are good counterbalances. If the Tories fall......we’re buggered. Whether you vote Tory or not. I see them on life support.
At this rate Farage will have 52% of the vote to himself. A terrifying prospect, even for a Brexit voter.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
He is playing labour. Can't you see that? The labour manifesto is not ready.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
I agree it's terrifying and it would serve mps right if that happened.CrosspoolClarets wrote:Crikey, Jo Johnson has knifed his brother in a Millibandesque way.....
They are worried about the moderates being purged (despite Boris’s domestic agenda being more moderate than anything that bunch did).
If I were them I would now worry about the future of the party. The Tory party and Labour Party are good counterbalances. If the Tories fall......we’re buggered. Whether you vote Tory or not. I see them on life support.
At this rate Farage will have 52% of the vote to himself. A terrifying prospect, even for a Brexit voter.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
But he can’t force them into an election and has given them a good reason to delay having one. Genius tactics!summitclaret wrote:He is playing labour. Can't you see that? The labour manifesto is not ready.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
But would it stop you voting for him?CrosspoolClarets wrote:Crikey, Jo Johnson has knifed his brother in a Millibandesque way.....
They are worried about the moderates being purged (despite Boris’s domestic agenda being more moderate than anything that bunch did).
If I were them I would now worry about the future of the party. The Tory party and Labour Party are good counterbalances. If the Tories fall......we’re buggered. Whether you vote Tory or not. I see them on life support.
At this rate Farage will have 52% of the vote to himself. A terrifying prospect, even for a Brexit voter.
And you are being ridiculous, Farage is marmite.
He's loved by those that love him, and absolutely loathed by everybody else.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
And the longer they delay the more chicken ge can call them.martin_p wrote:But he can’t force them into an election and has given them a good reason to delay having one. Genius tactics!
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Thats it?summitclaret wrote:And the longer they delay the more chicken ge can call them.
Thats his strategy?
He's going to need a lot more than that
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Wow, I bet Corbyn is shaking in his sandals.summitclaret wrote:And the longer they delay the more chicken ge can call them.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Well no, he called him a big girls blouse yesterday as well.Lancasterclaret wrote:Thats it?
Thats his strategy?
He's going to need a lot more than that
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
And still Corbyn didn’t buckle and hand Johnson the election he wanted. He’s obviously made of stern stuff our Jezza!Bordeauxclaret wrote:Well no, he called him a big girls blouse yesterday as well.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Well how about allowing a lame duck pm carry on because that in the national interest. Not.Lancasterclaret wrote:Thats it?
Thats his strategy?
He's going to need a lot more than that
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
He won’t be able to handle ‘wet lettuce’martin_p wrote:And still Corbyn didn’t buckle and hand Johnson the election he wanted. He’s obviously made of stern stuff our Jezza!
A man can only take so much.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
It’s in the national interest not to leave the eu with no deal on 31st October, but then you know that’s what the refusal to have an election is about already.summitclaret wrote:Well how about allowing a lame duck pm carry on because that in the national interest. Not.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Can someone remind me what the point of this Brexit thing is? What a hideous waste of time, effort and money.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
There is also the fact that if the bill becomes law and he doesn't get an election he could be forced to resign.martin_p wrote:But he can’t force them into an election and has given them a good reason to delay having one. Genius tactics!
If I were Corbyn I'd go on holiday now until 29th October and ignore the noise.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Yes I didn't check the facts, I've admitted that, just accepted them at face value, just like every remainer knows exactly what every leave voter didn't vote for..... as long as they keep telling each other 'perceived known facts' over biased media, within Unrepresentative Parliaments & umpteen Social media networks all is good.martin_p wrote:Well the first one on the list isn’t true, but do you think Jeremy Corbyn is for or against the things on your list. Comparing the Labour Party of today with that under Blair is a bit like comparing the Burnley of today to that under Chris Waddle, it’s 20 years ago, things have changed!
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
So why are they doing all they can to block us leaving? Whether the election is before or after 31st October, the Brexit issue won't have gone away unless we leave without a deal. So then we have a general election, where the Tories are campaigning on the basis of implementing Brexit, and the Liberals are campaigning on the basis of scrapping Brexit, and the Labour party are campaigning on the basis of doing nothing but dither about Brexit because they don't know what they want. That isn't going to win many votes.Spijed wrote:But if the election is after we have left then they will be on the same side - NHS, schools, foodbanks etc.
That's why the timing is crucial for them.
And while everyone else is talking about the number one issue, Brexit, Labour will be talking about the NHS and foodbanks. And no-one will be listening.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
If I were a Labour MP, vaguely interested in winning a General Election, I'd hope it was a permanent.Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:If I were Corbyn I'd go on holiday.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
So they defeat the biggest issue of their core voters, that just goes away and everyone just goes back to Loving the London Living LabourSpijed wrote:But if the election is after we have left then they will be on the same side - NHS, schools, foodbanks etc.
That's why the timing is crucial for them.
I am but 1 but never again... could be a couple more out of 17.4 million just maybe.....
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
It certainly doesn't help their cause that the notional leader isn't in charge.Darthlaw wrote:If I were a Labour MP, vaguely interested in winning a General Election, I'd hope it was a permanent.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
They aren't, haven't you been paying attention? They are blocking no deal.dsr wrote:So why are they doing all they can to block us leaving?
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
They're also blocking May's deal, the only other option at present. If they are saying that they want us to leave but not on our terms and not on the EU's terms and not on the terms agreed with Theresa May, then it's hard to take seriously the idea that they want us to leave. Especially as they say they want to win a general election (but not yet) and then spend time negotiate another deal for leaving the EU and then have another referendum in which they will campaign against their own deal whatever it may be.Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:They aren't, haven't you been paying attention? They are blocking no deal.
If that isn't blocking no deal ...
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Again, haven't you been paying attention? Corbyn didn't lost control of his party and sack his majority this week.dsr wrote:It certainly doesn't help their cause that the notional leader isn't in charge.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Again, haven't you been paying attention? I just said they are blocking no deal.dsr wrote:They're also blocking May's deal, the only other option at present. If they are saying that they want us to leave but not on our terms and not on the EU's terms and not on the terms agreed with Theresa May, then it's hard to take seriously the idea that they want us to leave. Especially as they say they want to win a general election (but not yet) and then spend time negotiate another deal for leaving the EU and then have another referendum in which they will campaign against their own deal whatever it may be.
If that isn't blocking no deal ...
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
The ERG blocked Mays Deal.dsr wrote:They're also blocking May's deal, the only other option at present. If they are saying that they want us to leave but not on our terms and not on the EU's terms and not on the terms agreed with Theresa May, then it's hard to take seriously the idea that they want us to leave. Especially as they say they want to win a general election (but not yet) and then spend time negotiate another deal for leaving the EU and then have another referendum in which they will campaign against their own deal whatever it may be.
If that isn't blocking no deal ...
I do wish you stop doing this.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
If Corbyn on Tuesday says he wants a general election and other members of his party say they don't want an election, and then Corbyn on Wednesday says he doesn't want an election, isn't it fair to infer that he isn't in charge?Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:Again, haven't you been paying attention? Corbyn didn't lost control of his party and sack his majority this week.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Labour certainly have a big decision to make at their conference. Do they continue to follow their current course which is to negotiate a Brexit on their terms (probably involving a customs union) and then have a referendum on the deal or do they go full remain. I suspect it’ll be the former meaning they’ll probably be squeezed from both sides.dsr wrote:So why are they doing all they can to block us leaving? Whether the election is before or after 31st October, the Brexit issue won't have gone away unless we leave without a deal. So then we have a general election, where the Tories are campaigning on the basis of implementing Brexit, and the Liberals are campaigning on the basis of scrapping Brexit, and the Labour party are campaigning on the basis of doing nothing but dither about Brexit because they don't know what they want. That isn't going to win many votes.
And while everyone else is talking about the number one issue, Brexit, Labour will be talking about the NHS and foodbanks. And no-one will be listening.
But it isn’t that simple of course, it depends on how your constituency looks. If Labour sticks to its guns on Brexit I’d be tempted to vote Lib Dem as a remainer. But my constituency is a straight fight between Labour and Tory, Labour having taken the seat with a small majority in 2015 and increased it in 2017. So voting Lib Dem, who are a distant third where I live, might let the Tories in. So I’d pretty much have to vote Labour.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
432 MPs voted against May's deal in January. They weren't all in the ERG. Are you seriously trying to claim that the Labour party was in favour of May's deal and didn't vote against it in the Commons?Lancasterclaret wrote:The ERG blocked Mays Deal.
I do wish you stop doing this.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
It’s fair to say he isn’t a dictator and will probably go with the consensus even if he doesn’t agree. Leadership isn’t about having your own way all the time.dsr wrote:If Corbyn on Tuesday says he wants a general election and other members of his party say they don't want an election, and then Corbyn on Wednesday says he doesn't want an election, isn't it fair to infer that he isn't in charge?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
There won't be a Tory party if he doesn't deliver brexit soon. I'd say 31 jan now. The blame for that would clearly be the likes of Hammond for not backing a leader newly elected by his party.Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:Again, haven't you been paying attention? Corbyn didn't lost control of his party and sack his majority this week.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
The ERG and 90 % of labour mps.Lancasterclaret wrote:The ERG blocked Mays Deal.
I do wish you stop doing this.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Again, haven't you been paying attention? Labour is the opposition, of course they voted against it.dsr wrote:432 MPs voted against May's deal in January. They weren't all in the ERG. Are you seriously trying to claim that the Labour party was in favour of May's deal and didn't vote against it in the Commons?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Aye, you only need to look at South Thanet in 2015.Lancasterclaret wrote:He's loved by those that love him, and absolutely loathed by everybody else.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Why would Hammond back a no deal Brexit? He isn't stupid.summitclaret wrote:There won't be a Tory party if he doesn't deliver brexit soon. I'd say 31 jan now. The blame for that would clearly be the likes of Hammond for not backing a leader newly elected by his party.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
It makes no difference whether those 22 were in or out. He could only call an early election with the agreement of Labour.AndrewJB wrote:If this was a plan - to purge the Tory Party of MPs who won't support a no deal - then it's left Johnson a hostage to fortune, unable to bring on an election to get the chance to win more "no deal" seats. He's now stuck in limbo, until the opposition give him merciful release. I can't see how this is a good plan.
You can tolerate “Rebel MPs” when you have a large majority- like Blair did with Corbyn for example” you can’t do that when you are running a minority government and an MP votes against an important policy that won him the leadership of the party a month previously
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
No, his party didn't rebel so you can't infer he isn't in charge. Also, I'm pretty sure Corbyn isn't trying to run his party like Johnson, a dictatorship in other words.dsr wrote:If Corbyn on Tuesday says he wants a general election and other members of his party say they don't want an election, and then Corbyn on Wednesday says he doesn't want an election, isn't it fair to infer that he isn't in charge?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
It does help if you can set the “tone”. Is he a leader or a facilitator?martin_p wrote:It’s fair to say he isn’t a dictator and will probably go with the consensus even if he doesn’t agree. Leadership isn’t about having your own way all the time.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Nope, what I'm trying to do is remind everyone that the Conservative party has a right wing group called the ERG who voted against the deal three times.dsr wrote:432 MPs voted against May's deal in January. They weren't all in the ERG. Are you seriously trying to claim that the Labour party was in favour of May's deal and didn't vote against it in the Commons?
Some of those members are now in government, so the chances are that they are still against that deal.
Johnson is not interested in a deal, because his power base is the ERG, who want the most destructive Brexit possible.
But it would have passed on its 3rd reading if the ERG hadn't voted it down.
All I'm saying is that people who are in the ERG will not change. This is their only chance to get the complete **** show brexit they want. They won't stop at anything to get it.
The only thing worse would be a vote for the racism and xenophobia of Farages Brexit Party.
Last edited by Lancasterclaret on Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
summitclaret wrote:And the longer they delay the more chicken ge can call them.
Did you steal this from the letters section in Viz
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
A question for those who are clued up on this sort of thing:
Now that the opposition coalition effectively have a majority in Parliament, is there anything that could stop them from tabling a bill to call a new EU referendum?
I understand that Standing Order 24 is a route they’ve taken twice to control the order paper, and for the second time this year they will have passed legislation forcing the government to request an extension from the EU. So what is to stop them from using the same method to legislate for a new referendum?
As things stand it makes complete sense for Labour and the SNP to reject a general election, while they are pretty much in control of things in opposition.
Now that the opposition coalition effectively have a majority in Parliament, is there anything that could stop them from tabling a bill to call a new EU referendum?
I understand that Standing Order 24 is a route they’ve taken twice to control the order paper, and for the second time this year they will have passed legislation forcing the government to request an extension from the EU. So what is to stop them from using the same method to legislate for a new referendum?
As things stand it makes complete sense for Labour and the SNP to reject a general election, while they are pretty much in control of things in opposition.
Last edited by JohnMcGreal on Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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