Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[Devils_Advocate]

The 3rd vote was 286 For and 344 Against with 4 Abstained. 34 Tory's voted Against so had they voted for the Deal it would have passed 320 - 310

[Devils_Advocate]

Not according to dsr’s figures above.

He is being clever with the word Brexit voting Tory's so he can conveniently group and exclude the 6 pro second referendum Tory's who voted against it and blame it on Remainers.

I thought the DUP were pro-leave so if we want to play those games we can surely blame it on the 10 DUP MPs who didn't vote for the bill rather than blaming Remain

[martin_p]

He is being clever with the word Brexit voting Tory's so he can conveniently group and exclude the 6 pro second referendum Tory's who voted against it and blame it on Remainers.

I thought the DUP were pro-leave so if we want to play those games we can surely blame it on the 10 DUP MPs who didn't vote for the bill and not Remain

He wasn’t even blaming remainers, Labour ‘blocked’ the deal apparently.

[Devils_Advocate]

He wasn’t even blaming remainers, Labour ‘blocked’ the deal apparently.

I mean Crosspools not dsr

[TheFamilyCat]

I’ve just found out that Boris was about three miles from my house today. Wish i’d known, i’d have gone and thrown something at him.

[elwaclaret]

I’ve just found out that Boris was about three miles from my house today. Wish i’d known, i’d have gone and thrown something at him.

A lifeline?

His brother resigning will hardly have been earth shattering news to BJ. I think the biggest surprise is that he remained in the fold so long. While the media is wetting itself, in reality everything that has happened has been expected. I really don’t expect that Central Office has been in the least surprised by events so far. They hoped a few would value their membership more than their opinion, but that is pretty much it.

Labour’s headache comes next week when RM re launches their election bill. Labour will not be able to resist a second time and then, they need to decide if JC is their true representative. They then risk a split on traditional / pro Eu lines of their own... even before deselection / jumping ship over Brexit.

If the infighting starts in the Labour Party, BJ may even see this as a win, long term. He can turn his attention to the Liberal heartlands in the SW and one can only assume their Brexit populations will turn their back on their Liberal MP’s.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

BJ may even see this as a win, long term.

I can't wait to see him have a bad day, this week has been all win win win for him.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

A lifeline?

His brother resigning will hardly have been earth shattering news to BJ. I think the biggest surprise is that he remained in the fold so long. While the media is wetting itself, in reality everything that has happened has been expected. I really don’t expect that Central Office has been in the least surprised by events so far. They hoped a few would value their membership more than their opinion, but that is pretty much it.

Labour’s headache comes next week when RM re launches their election bill. Labour will not be able to resist a second time and then, they need to decide if JC is their true representative. They then risk a split on traditional / pro Eu lines of their own... even before deselection / jumping ship over Brexit.

If the infighting starts in the Labour Party, BJ may even see this as a win, long term. He can turn his attention to the Liberal heartlands in the SW and one can only assume their Brexit populations will turn their back on their Liberal MP’s.

Why give him a general election? Wait until he's forced to resign and let the right-wing try again, this time without Johnson and Cummings.

Brexiters, choose your next champion....

[Spijed]

A lifeline?

His brother resigning will hardly have been earth shattering news to BJ. I think the biggest surprise is that he remained in the fold so long. While the media is wetting itself, in reality everything that has happened has been expected. I really don’t expect that Central Office has been in the least surprised by events so far. They hoped a few would value their membership more than their opinion, but that is pretty much it.

Labour’s headache comes next week when RM re launches their election bill. Labour will not be able to resist a second time and then, they need to decide if JC is their true representative. They then risk a split on traditional / pro Eu lines of their own... even before deselection / jumping ship over Brexit.

If the infighting starts in the Labour Party, BJ may even see this as a win, long term. He can turn his attention to the Liberal heartlands in the SW and one can only assume their Brexit populations will turn their back on their Liberal MP’s.

Why would Labour give in to an election when it's clearly not in their interests?

[AlargeClaret]

Why give him a general election? Wait until he's forced to resign and let the right-wing try again, this time without Johnson and Cummings.

Brexiters, choose your next champion....

As you well know if Boris goes ,the incumbent and the Tory party will be slaughtered in a GE with a raging Farage wrecking what’s left of the Tory vote . Boris is a huge bogeyman for the left and if they can get rid they may have a reasonable chance of “ the unthinkable “ Corbyn running the show . Labour need to tread carefully or they too could be massacred off a rampaging Boris and pliant Farage

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

rampaging Boris and pliant Farage

Yes, the "rampaging" Boris of today is clearly a canny opponent to be feared.

[Darthlaw]

Why would Labour give in to an election when it's clearly not in their interests?

I appreciate politicians are economical with the truth, however given Jezza has said Labour want a GE twice this week, maybe it will be an idea to actually go for it when offered? At least in the interests of restoring the confidence of the public, who have a massive distrust of politicians, currently.

Or they could go against their word, which is modus operandi these days for parliamentarians.

[elwaclaret]

Why give him a general election? Wait until he's forced to resign and let the right-wing try again, this time without Johnson and Cummings.

Brexiters, choose your next champion....

Johnson won’t resign. He has the backing of his party members, and he’s waited a long time for his chance at the top. I fully expect the Tories to do well in the next election, the Liberals have to improve but Remain will carry them to success.... I foresee will leave Labour as the biggest losers. As a traditional Labour sympathiser, I expect I’ll spoil my ballot again. Unless I feel it becomes just about Brexit, then I will hold my nose and hopefully help BJ over the finish line.

Think my Labour days are over. If he had grown the pair I thought he had I would be championing JC, but the more he try’s to play the game, the less electable he becomes for me.

[martin_p]

I appreciate politicians are economical with the truth, however given Jezza has said Labour want a GE twice this week, maybe it will be an idea to actually go for it when offered? At least in the interests of restoring the confidence of the public, who have a massive distrust of politicians, currently.

Or they could go against their word, which is modus operandi these days for parliamentarians.

What word has he given? He does want a general election, he just wants to stop no deal first. How many times does this need repeating?

[martin_p]

Johnson won’t resign. He has the backing of his party members, and he’s waited a long time for his chance at the top. I fully expect the Tories to do well in the next election, the Liberals have to improve but Remain will carry them to success.... I foresee will leave Labour as the biggest losers. As a traditional Labour sympathiser, I expect I’ll spoil my ballot again. Unless I feel it becomes just about Brexit, then I will hold my nose and hopefully help BJ over the finish line.

Think my Labour days are over. If he had grown the pair I thought he had I would be championing JC, but the more he try’s to play the game, the less electable he becomes for me.

What will he do when he has to go cap in hand to the EU for an extension then. He’s said he’d rather die in a ditch than do that?

His only way to get out of asking for an extension is to resign or actually sort out a deal acceptable to the EU and parliament.

[Spijed]

Johnson won’t resign. He has the backing of his party members, and he’s waited a long time for his chance at the top. I fully expect the Tories to do well in the next election, the Liberals have to improve but Remain will carry them to success.... I foresee will leave Labour as the biggest losers. As a traditional Labour sympathiser, I expect I’ll spoil my ballot again. Unless I feel it becomes just about Brexit, then I will hold my nose and hopefully help BJ over the finish line.

Think my Labour days are over. If he had grown the pair I thought he had I would be championing JC, but the more he try’s to play the game, the less electable he becomes for me.

So you don't think Johnson has suffered much political damage?

If Labour and the SNP refuse an election he will have broken his promise of leaving by the 31st of October.

[Lowbankclaret]

So you don't think Johnson has suffered much political damage?

If Labour and the SNP refuse an election he will have broken his promise of leaving by the 31st of October.

But it will be because Corbyn broke his promise of supporting an election if no deal legislation went through.

Which it will have done

[Spijed]

"PM: I'd rather be dead in ditch than delay Brexit".

Surely Labour, Lib Dems & the SNP won't miss the opportunity to see whether he resigns if they pull the plug on a pre 31st election?

[Darthlaw]

What word has he given? He does want a general election, he just wants to stop no deal first. How many times does this need repeating?

These words. 50 times this year...

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/t ... this-year/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[elwaclaret]

What will he do when he has to go cap in hand to the EU for an extension then. He’s said he’d rather die in a ditch than do that?

His only way to get out of asking for an extension is to resign or actually sort out a deal acceptable to the EU and parliament.

Disagree. If he is forced to the EU it has been beyond his wishes or his intent. That much is clear...

To say he has no other option is not to see beyond the box. He could delegate the responsibility.... and both insult the EU at the same time as asking for the extension that all know he does not want in the first place. Play it well enough they could even be wound to the point of expulsion, despite carrying out Parliaments instruction to the full, for example. Unlikely but far from impossible and that is without giving it that much thought.

They need him out if they want an extension... he certainly does not have to go, unless they carry an election to say so.

[martin_p]

These words. 50 times this year...

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/t ... this-year/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sorry I got to the end of the first sentence of that, which was a lie, and stopped reading. Corbyn hasn’t told Johnson he no longer wants a general election, quite the opposite. He’s said he definitely wants a general election once no deal has been stopped. I’m still struggling to understand why you think he’s broken his word. Has he said he promises to support a general election as soon as he is offered one even if it means a probable no deal Brexit?

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

These words. 50 times this year...

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/t ... this-year/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Exactly, so why the inference he doesn't actually want one?

[Devils_Advocate]

You standing in for Colburn to give him a few days off elwa? Must admit you're doing a cracking job

[Spijed]

Norman Smith, the political correspondent for the BBC, picked up on the fact earlier that Boris never called Corbyn a coward once during his speech for ducking out of an early election.

Has he perhaps realised he's gone way too far in the last couple of days and needs to repair a few bridges?

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

Sorry I got to the end of the first sentence of that, which was a lie, and stopped reading. Corbyn hasn’t told Johnson he no longer wants a general election, quite the opposite. He’s said he definitely wants a general election once no deal has been stopped. I’m still struggling to understand why you think he’s broken his word. Has he said he promises to support a general election as soon as he is offered one even if it means a probable no deal Brexit?

Of course not, this is the laughable, last-ditch argument of an idiot. We can all see through it you know Darthlaw, repeating Johnson's words doesn't add any more credibility to it. Corbyn is itching for an election but he can't do it until no deal Brexit has been averted.

[martin_p]

Disagree. If he is forced to the EU it has been beyond his wishes or his intent. That much is clear...

To say he has no other option is not to see beyond the box. He could delegate the responsibility.... and both insult the EU at the same time as asking for the extension that all know he does not want in the first place. Play it well enough they could even be wound to the point of expulsion, despite carrying out Parliaments instruction to the full, for example. Unlikely but far from impossible and that is without giving it that much thought.

They need him out if they want an extension... he certainly does not have to go, unless they carry an election to say so.

Boris Johnson has promised we’ll have left the EU by the 31st October ‘do or die’. Do you really think who actually goes to Brussels matters?

[Darthlaw]

If you don’t have attention span as per T. rex and Marty...

5644F70B-D861-4E4E-A33F-F30A29A1C5C9.jpeg (1.24 MiB) Viewed 2980 times

Demand an election then run away when it’s offered.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

If you don’t have attention span as per T. rex and Marty...

5644F70B-D861-4E4E-A33F-F30A29A1C5C9.jpeg

Demand an election then run away when it’s offered.

What an utter mug. If you believe that you'll believe anything.

[Darthlaw]

What an utter mug.

I agree that’s what Corbyn looks like.

Has he said he promises to support a general election as soon as he is offered one

Rally for a general election now

[martin_p]

If you don’t have attention span as per T. rex and Marty...

5644F70B-D861-4E4E-A33F-F30A29A1C5C9.jpeg

Demand an election then run away when it’s offered.

OMG! Someone’s altered a poster on Twitter. Corbyn’s in trouble now!

No point talking to you Darthlaw. Corbyn’s position and reasoning are quite clear and logical, it’s been explained by numerous people over the last 36 hours. You seem reasonably intelligent so you’re clearly just trolling.

[Darthlaw]

Come on Martin, don’t spit your dummy because you’ve been proved wrong. There’s a good lad.

[martin_p]

Come on Martin, don’t spit your dummy because you’ve been proved wrong. There’s a good lad.

Nice try

[Darthlaw]

Hey I’ve had a go at both Johnson and Corbyn on here, I can accept the foibles of both. Try taking the rose specs off occasionally and you’ll see clearer. You might even accept you got it wrong from time to time.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

None of the opposition parties trust Johnson to not move the election date to a point after Brexit in a similar move to his now defunct Prorogue Parliament and pretend to negotiate stunt. In addition to all the other lies he's spouted or even painted on buses over the years.

You can call Corbyn a chicken, he isn't.

You can say Corbyn is running away, he isn't.

In this instance, you would have to be very stupid to a: trust Boris Johnson or b: accept his spin on this, it's transparently a load of horseshit.

If Boris said let's have an election on the 2nd November then Corbyn would be first through the door to the voting lobby but calling one before some kamikaze no deal is exactly what it smells like, a trap. Johnson will move the election date, he still hasn't confirmed that he won't simply ignore the new law.

I can see why Boris is doing it but I can't for the life of me imagine anyone else finding any conviction in it.

[elwaclaret]

Boris Johnson has promised we’ll have left the EU by the 31st October ‘do or die’. Do you really think who actually goes to Brussels matters?

You think it doesn’t?
Labour is about to face its own in/out falling out, decide if they want to be ‘old labour’ or forward looking Eurocrat New, New Labour. Corbyn is not liked by either Trad labour or New New Labour... for being a sellout, or for not being wholehearted EU. The Liberals will not hold the South West but will massively increase their position elsewhere, probably even Scotland.

Both the Liberals and Labour will fall over themselves to offer independence votes up to and most likely including West Yorkshire... so the EU will immediately be hit with another series of fall outs, and wrangling and in all possibility newly independent nations to deal with as separate entities....

Or let Boris have some deal that lets them get rid of the ten years of aftershock that will result from an unlikely Labour or Liberal win as much a stink as if it has all been for nothing and the whole thing is called off...

I think I’d be on the phone asking what can we do to help.

[summitclaret]

So you don't think Johnson has suffered much political damage?

If Labour and the SNP refuse an election he will have broken his promise of leaving by the 31st of October.

And he will just say why. What's rhe problem?

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

You really do get fed the crap you want to be fed...



Look at the papers this morning, the headlines in the tory ones are absolute garbage, a targeted spin to brainwash people into thinking something they can see right in front of their eyes is really something else.



I mean are you honestly blind to all of this?

The curtain on these idiots it constantly pulled open, revealing them in their entirity and you still buy it?



I smelt a rat at the bus, that was like 200 scams ago or something.

[Damo]

What the shysters who are ignoring their constituents forget is, there has to be an election at some point. Even if it takes another 3 and a half years, they will be held accountable by the people they have ignored

[elwaclaret]

And he will just say why. What's rhe problem?

And it will be clear to a blind man that he was stopped by others at all turns... I really don’t see how that hurts anything but Boris’s pride. He could do no more... he was not the problem.... he has a membership that supports him, a new set of potential Mp’s and a nation who understand to a man like or loath it... he tried until it was beyond impossible for him to get his way...

He will be massively boosted by this kicking.

[martin_p]

What the shysters who are ignoring their constituents forget is, there has to be an election at some point. Even if it takes another 3 and a half years, they will be held accountable by the people they have ignored

There’ll be an election before Christmas.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Not according to dsr’s figures above.

Those Tory voting figures (which were not wrong but they were insufficiently detailed) do not show the split between the ERG and the arch Remainers like Grieve. Believe me when I say that if the ERG had voted for the deal, it would still have failed to pass.

[Damo]

None of the opposition parties trust Johnson to not move the election date to a point after Brexit in a similar move to his now defunct Prorogue Parliament and pretend to negotiate stunt. In addition to all the other lies he's spouted or even painted on buses over the years.

You can call Corbyn a chicken, he isn't.

You can say Corbyn is running away, he isn't.

In this instance, you would have to be very stupid to a: trust Boris Johnson or b: accept his spin on this, it's transparently a load of horseshit.

If Boris said let's have an election on the 2nd November then Corbyn would be first through the door to the voting lobby but calling one before some kamikaze no deal is exactly what it smells like, a trap. Johnson will move the election date, he still hasn't confirmed that he won't simply ignore the new law.

I can see why Boris is doing it but I can't for the life of me imagine anyone else finding any conviction in it.

You are absolutely right to not trust Boris, yet you trust Corbyn. The most Eurosceptic person in Westminster, who changes the party stance on Europe depending on the results of the latest Yougov poll?

[CrosspoolClarets]

He is being clever with the word Brexit voting Tory's so he can conveniently group and exclude the 6 pro second referendum Tory's who voted against it and blame it on Remainers.

I thought the DUP were pro-leave so if we want to play those games we can surely blame it on the 10 DUP MPs who didn't vote for the bill rather than blaming Remain

I’m not being clever (well, not deliberately), but I am being accurate.

I wouldn’t say that Tory MPs stopped the deal going through. That wouldn’t be accurate.

I would say that Remain MPs stopped the deal going through. That would be accurate. It isn’t an opinion. It’s a fact.

[martin_p]

I’m not being clever (well, not deliberately), but I am being accurate.

I wouldn’t say that Tory MPs stopped the deal going through. That wouldn’t be accurate.

I would say that Remain MPs stopped the deal going through. That would be accurate. It isn’t an opinion. It’s a fact.

I think that’s not necessarily right either. Brexit supporting Labour MPs voted against, some for the same reasons as the ERG, some because they were following the Labour policy of wanting a softer Brexit. Unless you have a breakdown of whether rack MP was a remain supporter and how they voted it’ll be difficult to prove.

Besides my point was that Labour couldn’t block May’s deal as dsr claimed as they simply didn’t have the numbers. After all the Tories/DUP had a majority so if they’d held firm there was nothing the opposition could do.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

You think it doesn’t?
Labour is about to face its own in/out falling out, decide if they want to be ‘old labour’ or forward looking Eurocrat New, New Labour. Corbyn is not liked by either Trad labour or New New Labour... for being a sellout, or for not being wholehearted EU. The Liberals will not hold the South West but will massively increase their position elsewhere, probably even Scotland.

Both the Liberals and Labour will fall over themselves to offer independence votes up to and most likely including West Yorkshire... so the EU will immediately be hit with another series of fall outs, and wrangling and in all possibility newly independent nations to deal with as separate entities....

Or let Boris have some deal that lets them get rid of the ten years of aftershock that will result from an unlikely Labour or Liberal win as much a stink as if it has all been for nothing and the whole thing is called off...

I think I’d be on the phone asking what can we do to help.

Boris doesn't want a deal or some deal, he wants no deal.

He thinks Parliament is a rigmarole where people are seen to be earning a crust as he blags a no deal Brexit through for his own ends.

That stuff about Corbyn running away is so last-ditch, desperate and laughable that those front pages resemble nothing more than mindless propaganda.

[Darthlaw]

And he will just say why. What's rhe problem?

His methods in order to circumvent parliament, to get Brexit cemented by Halloween, were ridiculously obvious. The application won’t do him any favors with the left but the center and right will no doubt be attracted to his attitude. Like I said before, can be trusted to get Brexit done but that’s about all he can be trusted for.

Corbyn however will be seen as the man who has changed stance to get whatever leverage he can with the public. When the gauntlet has finally been thrown down, he insists that the same parliamentarians who are being seen to act against public will (rightly or wrongly) must have their say before he takes on the challenge. A challenge he has been seen to be asking for, for some time.

They’re both duplicitous, they’re both proven liars and both seen to say whatever it takes to gain the public’s favour.

I see the tories strength lying in the us vs them, public will vs parliament campaign they are currently setting up. The parliamentary decision to force the extension will only strengthen this when he claims “look what they forced on me (us)”. By the same token, I can’t see hardline Labour wards voting Tory, regardless of how much they dislike Corbyn or want to see Brexit done.

It’s certainly going to be interesting when the GE finally does arrive.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

You are absolutely right to not trust Boris, yet you trust Corbyn. The most Eurosceptic person in Westminster, who changes the party stance on Europe depending on the results of the latest Yougov poll?

More than Johnson yes, I believe he'd actually get a decent Brexit and shut out Trump.

Rees Mogg doing this during the Brexit debate got me, I can't vote for them, they are from a different planet than me.

[elwaclaret]

You standing in for Colburn to give him a few days off elwa? Must admit you're doing a cracking job

No just trying to see it from all directions, it avoids unpleasant surprises. I don’t see who is of the same intellectual level on any opposition bench. They have Parliament in their pockets and yet Boris will come up smelling of roses in the end. They think he’s a buffoon and that will be their undoing.

[Devils_Advocate]

I’m not being clever (well, not deliberately), but I am being accurate.

I wouldn’t say that Tory MPs stopped the deal going through. That wouldn’t be accurate.

I would say that Remain MPs stopped the deal going through. That would be accurate. It isn’t an opinion. It’s a fact.

Its not accurate at all. It was the government who got to set the terms and control the negotiations with the EU and they had the majority to vote through the deal they come up with.

Unfortunately the Tories let themselves be dictated to by the ERG and therefore moved well away from the kind of Brexit Deal championed and promised as part of the Leave campaign

As a result of this and not partaking in cross party talks till the last minute they came back with a deal very specific to their own party's hardline view of Brexit.

The onus is then on the govt to get the deal through with their working majority of Torie MPS and DUP MPs. Had their own party and the DUP supported the bill it would have sailed through. Even allowing for the 6 rebel Tory MPs who wanted a 2nd referendum to vote against it still would have passed.

Therefore the fact of the matter is the blame lies with the DUP and Tory MPs* who voted against the bill who by the way are without doubt leavers that just could not bring themselves to vote for the type of Brexit the ERG led government had managed to negotiate

*Personally I dont blame those Tory and DUP MPs but blame May and the ERG for the ridiculous red lines that have hamstrung any chance of us getting a decent deal like that was outlined in the Leave campaign

[CrosspoolClarets]

He wasn’t even blaming remainers, Labour ‘blocked’ the deal apparently.

I didn’t even use the word “Labour” once. Remainers blocked the deal, Labour were just part of that stitch up.