Brexit: The Naked Truth

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Devils_Advocate
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Devils_Advocate » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:49 pm

elwaclaret wrote:No just trying to see it from all directions, it avoids unpleasant surprises. I don’t see who is of the same intellectual level on any opposition bench. They have Parliament in their pockets and yet Boris will come up smelling of roses in the end. They think he’s a buffoon and that will be their undoing.

You dont though. You claim to be neutral and unbiased but your analysis looks to excuse and justify everything the Tories and the Brexiteers do and be ultra critical and negative to anyone else.

Unfortunately I doubt you're fooling anyone with this charade buts its just a pity you aren't brave enough to admit you true allegiances

By the way you mentioned your prediction earlier and I asked if you could bump the post if you dont mind please?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby elwaclaret » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:53 pm

Anyone who didn’t vote for May’s deal stopped Brexit. They did it for all manner of justifiable reasons and after much thought, no doubt. How does it help now to apportion blame for what is already history?

Unlike a lot of people seem to on here, presume anyone is deliberately ‘lying’, they have a different world view and possibly have different information than me, but that is about it.

It is how politics used to be.

Edited for mis-spelling only.
Last edited by elwaclaret on Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby martin_p » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:56 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:I didn’t even use the word “Labour” once. Remainers blocked the deal, Labour were just part of that stitch up.


I was talking about dsr. Sorry for the confusion.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby elwaclaret » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:57 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:You dont though. You claim to be neutral and unbiased but your analysis looks to excuse and justify everything the Tories and the Brexiteers do and be ultra critical and negative to anyone else.

Unfortunately I doubt you're fooling anyone with this charade buts its just a pity you aren't brave enough to admit you true allegiances

By the way you mentioned your prediction earlier and I asked if you could bump the post if you dont mind please?


As I’ve said before. DA if that is your conclusion you are perfectly entitled to it... it matters not a jot, I offer opinions, take them or leave them. And yes I’ll try to route it out, think it’s earlier in this thread; hadn’t seen the post.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Devils_Advocate » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:04 pm

elwaclaret wrote:As I’ve said before. DA if that is your conclusion you are perfectly entitled to it... it matters not a jot, I offer opinions, take them or leave them. And yes I’ll try to route it out, think it’s earlier in this thread; hadn’t seen the post.

I'll have a look too but if you find it let me know what page its on cos im more interested to see what other peoples reactions was to it back then

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby elwaclaret » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:06 pm

elwaclaret wrote:As I’ve said before. DA if that is your conclusion you are perfectly entitled to it... it matters not a jot, I offer opinions, take them or leave them. And yes I’ll try to route it out, think it’s earlier in this thread; hadn’t seen the post.


As for my position... formally Micheal Foot type old Labour, now very much floating voter, who voted leave after a lot of thought on a balance of about 60/ 40.... though Not expecting no deal. Thanks for asking

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Spijed » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:07 pm

elwaclaret wrote:No just trying to see it from all directions, it avoids unpleasant surprises. I don’t see who is of the same intellectual level on any opposition bench. They have Parliament in their pockets and yet Boris will come up smelling of roses in the end. They think he’s a buffoon and that will be their undoing.


So you really think that it is all a clever plan by Boris and Dominic Cummings?

And how does Farage fit into all this?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby elwaclaret » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:08 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:I'll have a look too but if you find it let me know what page its on cos im more interested to see what other peoples reactions was to it back then


I think someone closer to the Tory pointed out that Ken Clark was retiring, so he wouldn’t be dumped was one of them. From memory.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby elwaclaret » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:12 pm

Spijed wrote:So you really think that it is all a clever plan by Boris and Dominic Cummings?

And how does Farage fit into all this?


What an the Brexit party do that Johnson hasn’t tried. I expect the Brexit party to collapse UKIP style.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Spijed » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:14 pm

elwaclaret wrote:What an the Brexit party do that Johnson hasn’t tried. I expect the Brexit party to collapse UKIP style.


Farage will water down the vote

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Spijed » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:16 pm

And Boris says he's going to strengthen the Union.

There is no chance now.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Devils_Advocate » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:18 pm

elwaclaret wrote:As for my position... formally Micheal Foot type old Labour, now very much floating voter, who voted leave after a lot of thought on a balance of about 60/ 40.... though Not expecting no deal. Thanks for asking

Corbyn's 2017 manifesto is probably the closest there has been to Foots 83 manifesto and has a lot of striking similarities albeit allowing for the different context of the time we live in.

Maybe its true what they say in your case about younger left wing thinkers becoming more conservative right wing thinkers as they go through the generations

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby elwaclaret » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:25 pm

Spijed wrote:And Boris says he's going to strengthen the Union.

There is no chance now.


The Union will be a bloody mess for the next ten years whatever happens from here. Do the EU needs the ten years of wrangling, the potential breakup of the Union, with ALL that goes with it... remain... united Ireland troubles... Leave united Ireland troubles.... leave under Conservatives who will fight for a United Britain, or remain with several new minor governments of independent nations all of who have to be dealt with separately, for no discernible benefit for Europe

It is a bloody mess and it needs sorting for all sides.
There will be a deal.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Devils_Advocate » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:26 pm

elwaclaret wrote:I think someone closer to the Tory pointed out that Ken Clark was retiring, so he wouldn’t be dumped was one of them. From memory.

Ive found the post you made a couple of weeks ago where Clark was mentioned and remembered that post as when you posted again it was in my mind and made me think to ask. In that post you said you'd predicted it back when Johnson got elected which is the one I was looking for you to bump.

To be honest though I remembered it wrongly thinking you had predicted it months and months ago and not just back in July so not as bold prediction but fair play for calling anything right in these strange times

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby elwaclaret » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:27 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Corbyn's 2017 manifesto is probably the closest there has been to Foots 83 manifesto and has a lot of striking similarities albeit allowing for the different context of the time we live in.

Maybe its true what they say in your case about younger left wing thinkers becoming more conservative right wing thinkers as they go through the generations


No, WAS a big fan of JC.... I’m well over him now.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:28 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Corbyn's 2017 manifesto is probably the closest there has been to Foots 83 manifesto and has a lot of striking similarities albeit allowing for the different context of the time we live in.

Maybe its true what they say in your case about younger left wing thinkers becoming more conservative right wing thinkers as they go through the generations


Not in my case! I'm heading the other way at a rate of knots.

The way I'm going I'm going to be demanding a statue of Stalin before I'm fifty*

*this is a joke for all you complete right wingers on here so don't take it seriously.**

**you have to explain jokes like this with complete right wingers.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Devils_Advocate » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:32 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Not in my case! I'm heading the other way at a rate of knots.

The way I'm going I'm going to be demanding a statue of Stalin before I'm fifty*

*this is a joke for all you complete right wingers on here so don't take it seriously.**

**you have to explain jokes like this with complete right wingers.

And what do you think your family will make of Venezuela next summer!!
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:34 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:And what do you think your family will make of Venezuela next summer!!


Our guerilla camp in the hills will have a five star trip advisor rating or there will be hell to pay.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby AndrewJB » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:36 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:And what do you think your family will make of Venezuela next summer!!

And the half term skiing holiday to N Korea.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:40 pm

AndrewJB wrote:And the half term skiing holiday to N Korea.


Why would we go there?

Its already perfect!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby CrosspoolClarets » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:44 pm

martin_p wrote:I was talking about dsr. Sorry for the confusion.


No problem.

I have just clarified the figures. 10 labour MPs voted for Brexit (Dennis Skinner, Frank Field, Gisela Stuart, Graham Stringer, John Cryer, Kate Hoey, Kelvin Hopkins, Roger Godsiff, Ronnie Campbell, John Mann). Of these, 2 voted with May the first time, 3 the second and 5 the third. Of these 5, only John Mann was a Brexiteer. Frank Field is too but he is now an independent. The others, like Caroline Flint, voted Remain.

She lost by 58 votes.

By my reckoning I may indeed have been slightly inaccurate that Brexiteers couldn’t have passed May’s deal. I hadn’t allowed for 8 Labour Brexiteers still not voting for the Brexit deal. Those, plus the ERG, may have been enough.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:47 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:No problem.

I have just clarified the figures. 10 labour MPs voted for Brexit (Dennis Skinner, Frank Field, Gisela Stuart, Graham Stringer, John Cryer, Kate Hoey, Kelvin Hopkins, Roger Godsiff, Ronnie Campbell, John Mann). Of these, 2 voted with May the first time, 3 the second and 5 the third. Of these 5, only John Mann was a Brexiteer. Frank Field is too but he is now an independent. The others, like Caroline Flint, voted Remain.

She lost by 58 votes.

By my reckoning I may indeed have been slightly inaccurate that Brexiteers couldn’t have passed May’s deal. I hadn’t allowed for 8 Labour Brexiteers still not voting for the Brexit deal. Those, plus the ERG, may have been enough.


I think what is important is that both the extreme Brexiteers, the remainers, the 2nd refs people, the soft brexit lot, whatever all thought that Mays deal was **** and that something better would happen.

I'm even surer now than i was then that was the one chance we had to draw a line under this.

You have to remember the 2nd ref lot were electorally nowhere in 2017, and look at them now.

What has been as frustrating as hell is that "No Deal" was clearly never going to get through the H of P, but as its the default position if we can't get a deal (rather the much more sensible default of nothing changing) then it continues to be a factor, when it really shouldn't be.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby CrosspoolClarets » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:54 pm

Watching Boris today in his very tired video and walkabout I have a strong feeling that he maybe about to deliberately break the (soon to be new) law by refusing to go to the EU for an extension.

He would then dare MPs to make him the first PM to be impeached in the country’s history.

We have been here before. This is Peston’s Blog about Theresa May facing the same dilemma in March.

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-03-26/prime-minister-would-break-the-law-if-she-ignores-letwin-result/

One thing is for sure - he has answered the question about whether he is a true Brexiteer or was only doing it to get the top job.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby conyoviejo » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:55 pm

image.jpeg
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:59 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Watching Boris today in his very tired video and walkabout I have a strong feeling that he maybe about to deliberately break the (soon to be new) law by refusing to go to the EU for an extension.

He would then dare MPs to make him the first PM to be impeached in the country’s history.

We have been here before. This is Peston’s Blog about Theresa May facing the same dilemma in March.

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-03-26/prime-minister-would-break-the-law-if-she-ignores-letwin-result/

One thing is for sure - he has answered the question about whether he is a true Brexiteer or was only doing it to get the top job.


He's a serial liar CC.


However (in the unlikely event he actually does that) If he refuses to obey the law, then the country will go even more mental than it did after the proroguing of parliament was announced.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby CrosspoolClarets » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:02 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:What has been as frustrating as hell is that "No Deal" was clearly never going to get through the H of P.


You say that Lancs, and it may be true, but hopefully we can all agree that if the PM had a majority of 200 and had set a firm deadline, a deal would be done for sure. It is only the hope of a softer arrangement that leads to EU intransigence (I do not blame them). If there is no deal, the thing that has led to it is Remainer manoeuvres in Parliament that gives the EU courage to hold firm.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Spijed » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:04 pm

If one thing has come out of today it's that Boris Johnson isn't good when under pressure in front of the cameras.

Will be interesting to see how that plays out come the debates, interviews etc.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:08 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:You say that Lancs, and it may be true, but hopefully we can all agree that if the PM had a majority of 200 and had set a firm deadline, a deal would be done for sure. It is only the hope of a softer arrangement that leads to EU intransigence (I do not blame them). If there is no deal, the thing that has led to it is Remainer manoeuvres in Parliament that gives the EU courage to hold firm.


No, we can't agree with that.

There was a deal, the best we can get, and it didn't get through.

If he has a 200 majority and he commands their loyalty, then of course he can pass whatever he likes but it will be Mays deal with some meaningless changes to the text I suspect.

Johnson demands the backstop to go, and it can't.

I just don't see where a deal comes from.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby CrosspoolClarets » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:11 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:He's a serial liar CC.


However (in the unlikely event he actually does that) If he refuses to obey the law, then the country will go even more mental than it did after the proroguing of parliament was announced.


That is clearly true.

On this occasion though I sense he is speaking the truth and trying to be statesmanlike. He is in the top job now, he has nowhere else to go, and the easiest way to stay there is to go soft and placate his MPs then agree a soft Brexit. He isn’t doing that. He thus appears to have concluded that his biggest loyalty is to his 17.4m Brexit voters. Admirable if true. I'll rephrase. Unprecedented if true.

Another option of course is to get the EU to kick us out - like by refusing to appoint an EU commissioner, something that the Remainers forgot to put in their bill, or by refusing the pay the subscription fee. I really don’t see what the MPs are trying to achieve with this, it is revoke and kiss goodbye to the party, or leave Boris’s way, nothing else.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby CrosspoolClarets » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:17 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:No, we can't agree with that.

There was a deal, the best we can get, and it didn't get through.

If he has a 200 majority and he commands their loyalty, then of course he can pass whatever he likes but it will be Mays deal with some meaningless changes to the text I suspect.

Johnson demands the backstop to go, and it can't.

I just don't see where a deal comes from.


Agree, and I think that will be the deal, but I was talking about a hypothetical PM with a huge majority. In that instance, originally, not now, the EU knows we are out and agrees a deal. The hung parliament we have guarantees the EU think there is a chance we stay so they offer nothing.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby martin_p » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:22 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Agree, and I think that will be the deal, but I was talking about a hypothetical PM with a huge majority. In that instance, originally, not now, the EU knows we are out and agrees a deal. The hung parliament we have guarantees the EU think there is a chance we stay so they offer nothing.


A hypothetical PM with a big majority wouldn’t have had to have red lines set by a small faction of his/her party and would probably have got a softer deal everyone but that small faction would have been happy with.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:22 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:That is clearly true.

On this occasion though I sense he is speaking the truth and trying to be statesmanlike. He is in the top job now, he has nowhere else to go, and the easiest way to stay there is to go soft and placate his MPs then agree a soft Brexit. He isn’t doing that. He thus appears to have concluded that his biggest loyalty is to his 17.4m Brexit voters. Admirable if true. I'll rephrase. Unprecedented if true.


He's got no other choice has he with who backs him?

Another option of course is to get the EU to kick us out - like by refusing to appoint an EU commissioner, something that the Remainers forgot to put in their bill, or by refusing the pay the subscription fee. I really don’t see what the MPs are trying to achieve with this, it is revoke and kiss goodbye to the party, or leave Boris’s way, nothing else.


No way, because the EU will not kick us out, as that would be interfering in our domestic politics.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby AndrewJB » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:24 pm

Some of the 'glass half full' material on here about Johnson really illustrates how far people can stretch to catch a feel of positivity. In some ways it's Johnson's own positive vibes rubbing off.

He was the only one of the leadership candidates to say - absolutely - that we will leave on 31st October. All the others had caveats of one sort or another. Now you could say that if he doesn't achieve this, it won't be his fault. But then perhaps he shouldn't have made that pledge? It's not just the dishonesty, or in his case the breaking of a cast iron pledge as he did about the Heathrow runway, but what kind of political mind does he have to be so easily outplayed as he has over the last few days? His promise to the country was that of a chancer. A throw of the dice, and if you look deeper into this - that he set the country on a course to leave with no deal and kind of threw everything at it, underhanded or not. The sort of person who does this doesn't really consider consequences. Not a wise and steady hand on the tiller of the state. As for his negotiations with the EU to avoid no deal - well that appears to be the square root of nothing. From Cummings saying the talks were a sham, to Johnson himself being unable to provide details, to the EU showing the UK position to be just May's deal with the backstop scratched out - nothing new or promising has been delivered by him.

I think if we reach the end of October, and Johnson hasn't taken us out of the EU, the Brexit Party will get a big boost in the polls. Some people on here have said - it won't be his fault - but just as it was his promise, it will also have to be his failure.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:32 pm

Kwesi Kwatang has basically said that Johnson will break the law rather than go to Brussels for an extension.

Country is going to blow up when that happens.

He's come across as a complete lunatic on BBC Question Time as well.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby aggi » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:38 pm

elwaclaret wrote:And it will be clear to a blind man that he was stopped by others at all turns... I really don’t see how that hurts anything but Boris’s pride. He could do no more... he was not the problem.... he has a membership that supports him, a new set of potential Mp’s and a nation who understand to a man like or loath it... he tried until it was beyond impossible for him to get his way...

He will be massively boosted by this kicking.


A lot of people aren't really going to care about the machinations though. He promised we'd be out, he's the PM, why aren't we out?

If he spends too much time blaming other people he starts to look very weak. A PM who can't control his party, nevermind the country.

Added to that, there are a long list of promises that Johnson has made in the past that he hasn't fulfilled. It won't take much more for the media to turn on him as a serial failure.

Your stance of everything that doesn't go smoothly in the Labour party is terrible and will cause it to fall apart whereas everything that goes badly in the Tory party will make it stronger in the long term is a bit weird. I'm guessing your dislike of Corbyn is colouring your views.

A new Tory party with a cabinet of similar "talents" to what we have in the cabinet at the moment isn't going to go far. It will alienate far more voters than it wins.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby tiger76 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:52 pm

AndrewJB wrote:Some of the 'glass half full' material on here about Johnson really illustrates how far people can stretch to catch a feel of positivity. In some ways it's Johnson's own positive vibes rubbing off.

He was the only one of the leadership candidates to say - absolutely - that we will leave on 31st October. All the others had caveats of one sort or another. Now you could say that if he doesn't achieve this, it won't be his fault. But then perhaps he shouldn't have made that pledge? It's not just the dishonesty, or in his case the breaking of a cast iron pledge as he did about the Heathrow runway, but what kind of political mind does he have to be so easily outplayed as he has over the last few days? His promise to the country was that of a chancer. A throw of the dice, and if you look deeper into this - that he set the country on a course to leave with no deal and kind of threw everything at it, underhanded or not. The sort of person who does this doesn't really consider consequences. Not a wise and steady hand on the tiller of the state. As for his negotiations with the EU to avoid no deal - well that appears to be the square root of nothing. From Cummings saying the talks were a sham, to Johnson himself being unable to provide details, to the EU showing the UK position to be just May's deal with the backstop scratched out - nothing new or promising has been delivered by him.

I think if we reach the end of October, and Johnson hasn't taken us out of the EU, the Brexit Party will get a big boost in the polls. Some people on here have said - it won't be his fault - but just as it was his promise, it will also have to be his failure.


New ICM poll just released shows why Boris Johnson wants a cut and run election.

If Election BEFORE 31st Oct:

CON: 37%
LAB: 30%
BXP: 9%

If Election AFTER 31st Oct:

CON: 28%
LAB: 28%
BXP: 18%

Via @ICMResearch.

On the top figures BJ and the Cons could probably get a fair majority,not huge but enough to validate going to the polls.

The lower figures will almost certainly lead to another hung parliament,there isn't any info on the other parties but you'd presume the Lib Dems would sweep up most of the remainder,and clearly in Scotland the SNP will top 50 seats again.

Assuming the Labour strategists are abreast of these polls,it would be madness for them to consent to a GE anytime soon,i can't see the other opposition parties giving way either,their positions are clear regarding a no deal,Boris is the one who will have to explain why there's been no progress,i'm sure he'll try to blame the HOC for his own shortcomings,but the excuses are growing more hollow by the day.

# 37
AndyClaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby AndyClaret » Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:14 am

Emily Thornberry said she would go to Brussells to negotiate Labour's brexit deal, then campaign AGAINST it for remain !
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# 38
Damo
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Damo » Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:27 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Kwesi Kwatang has basically said that Johnson will break the law rather than go to Brussels for an extension.

Country is going to blow up when that happens.

He's come across as a complete lunatic on BBC Question Time as well.

When you say blow up, do you mean that a few bus full of middle aged people, will turn up in london and sing a few silly songs, or something else?

# 39
Lancasterclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:04 am

AndyClaret wrote:Emily Thornberry said she would go to Brussells to negotiate Labour's brexit deal, then campaign AGAINST it for remain !


Madness isn't it?

# 40
Lancasterclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:05 am

Damo wrote:When you say blow up, do you mean that a few bus full of middle aged people, will turn up in london and sing a few silly songs, or something else?


Damo, I'm off to my first ever political demonstration on sat.

My. first. ever.

You obey the law when you are the PM, whether you like or not, or we don't live in a democracy anymore.

You are a sensible guy on here, you see how surely see how this looks?

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Damo
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Damo » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:00 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Damo, I'm off to my first ever political demonstration on sat.

My. first. ever.

Going back to my original comment...
:lol: just kidding pal
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# 42
Lancasterclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:16 am

Damo wrote:Going back to my original comment...
:lol: just kidding pal


Well I am middle aged, though I'm not sure how me belting out "NO NAY NEVER" would go down!
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# 43
AlargeClaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby AlargeClaret » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:18 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:He's a serial liar CC.


However (in the unlikely event he actually does that) If he refuses to obey the law, then the country will go even more mental than it did after the proroguing of parliament was announced.


Did the country really “ go mental” ? While the remainers and left foamed and frothed for a while and the obligatory tin foilers/most of the BMA etc were out in force with their EU flags, and dogs for a few hours ( I can never get taking a dog on a demo ??) if that’s what “ the country going mental” is I’m all for it.

Boris is simply giving it his best shot to deliver on a national democratic vote nothing more nothing less. He wanted a deal and the only tactic left to get that was poo poo’d by a white flag waving parliament

# 44
NottsClaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby NottsClaret » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:20 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:You obey the law when you are the PM, whether you like or not, or we don't live in a democracy anymore.


Yeah but Robert Mugabe's dead, so there is an opening for a despot.

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Devils_Advocate
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Devils_Advocate » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:20 am

AlargeClaret wrote:Boris is simply giving it his best shot to deliver on a national democratic vote nothing more nothing less. He wanted a deal and the only tactic left to get that was poo poo’d by a white flag waving parliament

Nonsense

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ClaretAL
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby ClaretAL » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:23 am

We seem to have a lot of very well informed political experts on here, so how do we actually complain that out MP is going against what we voted for? I don't mean a polite email or letter, but surely their is a law that says if you democratically vote for something to happen through your MP, then that MP must deliver the same vote on her constituents behalf in Parliament? Where as Julie Cooper seems to deem fit to deliver what ever she feels fit rather than the Constituents, which to me means she is way out of her job description and as we democratically voted her in, we should also be able to end her tenure? Seems to be too simple, but all brexit to one side remain or leave, I am more concerned that we democratically voted someone in who has no will what so ever to act on behalf of her constituents no matter what the subject is.

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martin_p
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby martin_p » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:31 am

ClaretAL wrote:We seem to have a lot of very well informed political experts on here, so how do we actually complain that out MP is going against what we voted for? I don't mean a polite email or letter, but surely their is a law that says if you democratically vote for something to happen through your MP, then that MP must deliver the same vote on her constituents behalf in Parliament? Where as Julie Cooper seems to deem fit to deliver what ever she feels fit rather than the Constituents, which to me means she is way out of her job description and as we democratically voted her in, we should also be able to end her tenure? Seems to be too simple, but all brexit to one side remain or leave, I am more concerned that we democratically voted someone in who has no will what so ever to act on behalf of her constituents no matter what the subject is.


Julie Cooper is following the Labour manifesto pledge to stop a no deal Brexit. That’s the basis on which she was elected.

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Lancasterclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:35 am

AlargeClaret wrote:Did the country really “ go mental” ? While the remainers and left foamed and frothed for a while and the obligatory tin foilers/most of the BMA etc were out in force with their EU flags, and dogs for a few hours ( I can never get taking a dog on a demo ??) if that’s what “ the country going mental” is I’m all for it.

Boris is simply giving it his best shot to deliver on a national democratic vote nothing more nothing less. He wanted a deal and the only tactic left to get that was poo poo’d by a white flag waving parliament


There were demonstrations in countryside towns with both remainers and leavers because of what it involved.

I'm happy to let people like you live persist in thinking that its only parliament stopping Brexit and that the public will back anything to make sure Brexit happens to be perfectly honest.

The fanatics won't change, but normal people who can read and digest new information (well, when I say "new", its information that has always been there!) will.

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AndrewJB
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby AndrewJB » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:44 am

ClaretAL wrote:We seem to have a lot of very well informed political experts on here, so how do we actually complain that out MP is going against what we voted for? I don't mean a polite email or letter, but surely their is a law that says if you democratically vote for something to happen through your MP, then that MP must deliver the same vote on her constituents behalf in Parliament? Where as Julie Cooper seems to deem fit to deliver what ever she feels fit rather than the Constituents, which to me means she is way out of her job description and as we democratically voted her in, we should also be able to end her tenure? Seems to be too simple, but all brexit to one side remain or leave, I am more concerned that we democratically voted someone in who has no will what so ever to act on behalf of her constituents no matter what the subject is.

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders ... h13s7.html

This Eighteenth Century speech remains the best answer to your question.

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atlantalad
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby atlantalad » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:57 am

martin_p wrote:Julie Cooper is following the Labour manifesto pledge to stop a no deal Brexit. That’s the basis on which she was elected.


That's precisely what's wrong with UK politics. MP's are supposed to represent and present issues concerning their constituents yet, this is trumped by "party manifesto". So when they come canvassing on our doorstep promising everything under the sun to get your vote and bring local issues to the national stage bear in mind the will and agenda of their party will come first and foremost.

Your vote goes to the "badge" not the person however nice they may present themselves. Like I mentioned before - modern day politicians are merely playing out the characters in Animal Farm with all snouts in the trough.


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