Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[martin_p]

That's precisely what's wrong with UK politics. MP's are supposed to represent and present issues concerning their constituents yet, this is trumped by "party manifesto". So when they come canvassing on our doorstep promising everything under the sun to get your vote and bring local issues to the national stage bear in mind the will and agenda of their party will come first and foremost.

Your vote goes to the "badge" not the person however nice they may present themselves. Like I mentioned before - modern day politicians are merely playing out the characters in Animal Farm with all snouts in the trough.

I don’t live in her constituency, was Julie Cooper canvassing for a no deal Brexit?

[dsr]

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders ... h13s7.html

This Eighteenth Century speech remains the best answer to your question.

But it's not a full answer. Edmund Burke did not, for example, suggest that it is right for an MP to ask for votes on the basis that he is a Conservative in favour of Brexit, and then when elected to tell hius constituents that he is actually a Liberal who is opposed to Brexit in all circumstances.

[android]

Why would Labour give in to an election when it's clearly not in their interests?

Reading that sentence in its glorious isolation shows the amazing situation in which we find ourselves. Labour currently sustaining a minority Tory government. (Yes, I know the circumstances blah blah - no need to repeat - just an observation of this moment in time).

Also shows how weird things have got when a poster pointing out that Labour MPs voted overwhelmingly to block May's deal gets called a liar! (Yes, other groups of MPs also acted to block it like the SNP and ERG and FFS but it doesn't make the first statement any less true).

Just to add to the weirdness...I can't help thinking that Boris is daring parliament to replace him with Corbyn. Let Corbyn go begging for an extension. Maybe even let him put his referendum to the people, which as I understand it (no-one really does) would be some combination of:
1) Remain (and Labour campaign in favour)
2) Leave with a deal negotiated by a Labour government but which they do not want (cracking deal that will be, no-one will see through that)
3) No deal - but which no deal? According to the Bank of England no deal just got 3% better GDP wise due to no deal measures. I don't see how any government could actually put "no deal" on a ballot paper.
That would obviously be a super fair referendum for Leave supporters.

Corbyn would obviously have to call a GE very soon. But could Boris suffer the humiliation of standing down as PM but crucially (for him!) stay as Tory leader for the GE. Well these are strange times...

[Lancasterclaret]

Also shows how weird things have got when a poster pointing out that Labour MPs voted overwhelmingly to block May's deal gets called a liar! (Yes, other groups of MPs also acted to block it like the SNP and ERG and FFS but it doesn't make the first statement any less true).

Context Android

You know full well why Dsr is called a liar, because he has lied about numerous things in this thread, and he's bright enough to know he's doing it, but not bright enough to understand that the people he's arguing with are also bright enough to spot that.

Do you like being taken for an idiot?

I don't

[martin_p]

But it's not a full answer. Edmund Burke did not, for example, suggest that it is right for an MP to ask for votes on the basis that he is a Conservative in favour of Brexit, and then when elected to tell hius constituents that he is actually a Liberal who is opposed to Brexit in all circumstances.

It’s an answer to the question that was asked. I wouldn’t disagree with you on the issue of MPs that change their colours, a bye election should happen. But only if it’s the MPs choice to leave the party, otherwise it becomes a very easy way of parties getting rid of MPs they don’t like.

[atlantalad]

I don’t live in her constituency, was Julie Cooper canvassing for a no deal Brexit?

No idea, may be she was canvassing for a soft remain?

The point I was making was intended to point out the dichotomy with the UK's political system.

[android]

Have to disagree with you on that one Lancaster. I don't know about the other stuff you refer to only the point I mentioned. Anyway, what do you reckon to Corbyn as our interim PM?

[Lancasterclaret]

Just to add to the weirdness...I can't help thinking that Boris is daring parliament to replace him with Corbyn. Let Corbyn go begging for an extension. Maybe even let him put his referendum to the people, which as I understand it (no-one really does) would be some combination of:
1) Remain (and Labour campaign in favour)
2) Leave with a deal negotiated by a Labour government but which they do not want (cracking deal that will be, no-one will see through that)
3) No deal - but which no deal? According to the Bank of England no deal just got 3% better GDP wise due to no deal measures. I don't see how any government could actually put "no deal" on a ballot paper.
That would obviously be a super fair referendum for Leave supporters.

Corbyn would obviously have to call a GE very soon. But could Boris suffer the humiliation of standing down as PM but crucially (for him!) stay as Tory leader for the GE. Well these are strange times...

There has been some pretty heavy spinning of Johnson defeat over the past 24 hours to make it look less humiliating for him that it does.

There is no doubt that the picture of Brexit-bound Johnson being hamstrung by parliament is a vote winner in some parts of the electorate, but that has to be counterbalanced by his terrible performances over the last 48 hours, culminating in yesterdays car crash performance (from set up to finish, it could not have gone worse for him).

There is no doubt in my eyes now that Johnson is driving us towards a political cliff, relying on the other side baulking at stopping him because it would cause even more division.

That is a his greatest mistake yet, and he's going to go down in history for all the wrong reasons.

[Lancasterclaret]

Have to disagree with you on that one Lancaster. I don't know about the other stuff you refer to only the point I mentioned. Anyway, what do you reckon to Corbyn as our interim PM?

Not a lot!

But this is 100% Johnson fault, and all the spinning in the world won't change that.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

YES! Prorogueing Parliament found lawful.

Parliament can close for five weeks, running down the clock until Johnson has to scuttle off to Brussels and beg for an extension.
Or resign.
Or die in a ditch.
I'll be happy whichever he chooses.

[martin_p]

Not a lot!

But this is 100% Johnson fault, and all the spinning in the world won't change that.

Johnson is certainly making him more appealing. He looked positively statesman like vs Johnson’s ranting, swearing and name calling at PMQs the other day.

[android]

Not a lot!

But this is 100% Johnson fault, and all the spinning in the world won't change that.

100% ! Extreme days indeed.

Shock news from the court

[martin_p]

100% ! Extreme days indeed.

Shock news from the court

Just shows that the old saying ‘a week is a long time in politics’ is very true. I suspect all the people upset by prorogueing last week are cheering from the sidelines at today’s decision with the no deal bill about to receive royal assent and time running out for Johnson to force an election.

[If it be your will]

No problem.

I have just clarified the figures. 10 labour MPs voted for Brexit (Dennis Skinner, Frank Field, Gisela Stuart, Graham Stringer, John Cryer, Kate Hoey, Kelvin Hopkins, Roger Godsiff, Ronnie Campbell, John Mann). Of these, 2 voted with May the first time, 3 the second and 5 the third. Of these 5, only John Mann was a Brexiteer. Frank Field is too but he is now an independent. The others, like Caroline Flint, voted Remain.

She lost by 58 votes.

By my reckoning I may indeed have been slightly inaccurate that Brexiteers couldn’t have passed May’s deal. I hadn’t allowed for 8 Labour Brexiteers still not voting for the Brexit deal. Those, plus the ERG, may have been enough.

In the indicative votes, I gather Skinner voted for 'no-deal'.

Now there's a good old lefty that doesn't mince his words!

[Mala591]

The EU must (eventually) offer a compromise solution which has a possibility of being passed by parliament.

They should offer to kick the backstop problem down the road and give it a three year expiry date. This compromise might just get through parliament and will allow nearly FIVE years (including the transition period) for an acceptable Ireland border solution to be developed.

[Lancasterclaret]

Johnson is certainly making him more appealing. He looked positively statesman like vs Johnson’s ranting, swearing and name calling at PMQs the other day.

Yup, and that would have set off a lot more alarm bells at Conservative HQ than they are letting on.

[Lancasterclaret]

Just shows that the old saying ‘a week is a long time in politics’ is very true. I suspect all the people upset by prorogueing last week are cheering from the sidelines at today’s decision with the no deal bill about to receive royal assent and time running out for Johnson to force an election.

Not cheering at all

Parliament needs to be sitting to sort this out, not wasting precious time we haven't got.

[martin_p]

The EU must (eventually) offer a compromise solution which has a possibility of being passed by parliament.

They should offer to kick the backstop problem down the road and give it a three year expiry date. This compromise might just get through parliament and will allow nearly FIVE years (including the transition period) for an acceptable Ireland border solution to be developed.

That’s not going to happen. All it does is (as you have identified) kick the can down the road. The EU want a defined solution to the Irish border before a trade deal.

[martin_p]

Not cheering at all

Parliament needs to be sitting to sort this out, not wasting precious time we haven't got.

But in the absence of a new deal what is there to sort out? I guess they could have more indicative votes and with Johnson having ****** off a fair proportion of his party some might vote differently, but it seems a long shot. But unless they agree on a referendum then the only next step after no deal has been avoided is a general election (although I’m not saying that will necessarily sort things out).

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

Just shows that the old saying ‘a week is a long time in politics’ is very true. I suspect all the people upset by prorogueing last week are cheering from the sidelines at today’s decision with the no deal bill about to receive royal assent and time running out for Johnson to force an election.

Me. I am cheering. I think with time running out Johnson's administration will implode.

[android]

Just shows that the old saying ‘a week is a long time in politics’ is very true. I suspect all the people upset by prorogueing last week are cheering from the sidelines at today’s decision with the no deal bill about to receive royal assent and time running out for Johnson to force an election.

What, you mean it wasn't a coup! the end of democracy! a dictatorship! Get a grip Martin - whose side are you on!

It was quite funny that about a week after the proroguing outrage the opposition seizing control from the government did at least look a little bit like a coup! Might have to try to borrow one of Owen Jones's placards.

[Lancasterclaret]

But in the absence of a new deal what is there to sort out? I guess they could have more indicative votes and with Johnson having ****** off a fair proportion of his party some might vote differently, but it seems a long shot. But unless they agree on a referendum then the only next step after no deal has been avoided is a general election (although I’m not saying that will necessarily sort things out).

There is everything to sort out.

For starters a shed load of domestic agenda isn't being done for starters.

It was a terrible decision by Johnson for a whole variety of reasons, and I'd be lying if i said I wasn't taking any pleasure in his huge mistake, but it doesn't change the fact that parliament should be sitting.

It should be sitting morning, noon, night, at the weekend, over holidays till we have an acceptable solution.

[If it be your will]

Just shows that the old saying ‘a week is a long time in politics’ is very true. I suspect all the people upset by prorogueing last week are cheering from the sidelines at today’s decision with the no deal bill about to receive royal ascent and time running out for Johnson to force an election.

This is going to be interesting. All the talk was Labour turned down the opportunity for an election because they didn't trust Boris not to change the election date till after the 31st October (a breathtaking lack of trust in a sitting PM, but okay, I get it). But now there is talk that Labour will still refuse an election until after an A50 extension has been secured with the EU. This is an entirely different thing.

Hmm. Denying the opportunity for the electorate to have a say in whether there should be an extension is a whole different ballgame to 'We don't trust Boris not to change the election date'.

It'll be difficult to label Boris with the 'antidemocratic tag' if this is Labour's game.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

Here's what I would like to see happen and it's possibly the easiest way to sort things out properly...

1: Johnson goes for the extension (now until Oct 31st)
2: Extention period begins (Oct 31st)
3: No confidence vote which Johnson loses.
4: Unity government formed to deliver second referendum and general election.
5: Second referendum. Remain wins.

[If it be your will]

Here's what I would like to see happen and it's possibly the easiest way to sort things out properly...

1: Johnson goes for the extension (now until Oct 31st)
2: Extention period begins (Oct 31st)
3: No confidence vote which Johnson loses.
4: Unity government formed to deliver second referendum and general election.
5: Second referendum. Remain wins.

6. Farage becomes PM at the following election and takes us out with no-deal anyway.

[martin_p]

What, you mean it wasn't a coup! the end of democracy! a dictatorship! Get a grip Martin - whose side are you on!

It was quite funny that about a week after the proroguing outrage the opposition seizing control from the government did at least look a little bit like a coup! Might have to try to borrow one of Owen Jones's placards.

Oh I still think it’s wrong and it certainly sets a dangerous precedent. But now it’s blown up in Johnson’s face and the bill to stop no deal is done it’s he who needs the time he chopping.

I guess if you accept that Johnson isn’t going to get a new deal and a general election is imminent, now that the no deal bill is done the time wasted matters less.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

This is going to be interesting. All the talk was Labour turned down the opportunity for an election because they didn't trust Boris not to change the election date till after the 31st October (a breathtaking lack of trust in a sitting PM, but okay, I get it). But now there is talk that Labour will still refuse an election until after an A50 extension has been secured with the EU. This is an entirely different thing.

Hmm. Denying the opportunity for the electorate to have a say in whether there should be an extension is a whole different ballgame to 'We don't trust Boris not to change the election date'.

It'll be difficult to label Boris with the 'antidemocratic tag' if this is Labour's game.

Really? So why don't labour just say...

"we already had an election, the public has decided, to have another general election would be undemocratic."

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

6. Farage becomes PM at the following election and takes us out with no-deal anyway.

Please, nobody is stupid enough to put Farage's party into government

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

Denying the opportunity for the electorate to have a say

Yep, you actually typed it.

You are beyond help mate, you must have the memory of a goldfish.

[martin_p]

This is going to be interesting. All the talk was Labour turned down the opportunity for an election because they didn't trust Boris not to change the election date till after the 31st October (a breathtaking lack of trust in a sitting PM, but okay, I get it). But now there is talk that Labour will still refuse an election until after an A50 extension has been secured with the EU. This is an entirely different thing.

Hmm. Denying the opportunity for the electorate to have a say in whether there should be an extension is a whole different ballgame to 'We don't trust Boris not to change the election date'.

It'll be difficult to label Boris with the 'antidemocratic tag' if this is Labour's game.

Well I don’t remember getting a say in the last two extensions, why suddenly the need for a public poll on this one?

[dsr]

What happens if Johnson resigns as PM the day after prorogation?

[martin_p]

What happens if Johnson resigns as PM the day after prorogation?

Someone else will be given the chance to form a government.

[Devils_Advocate]

What happens if Johnson resigns as PM the day after prorogation?

Why dont you tell us your fairytale version of events first and im sure someone will then come up with the reality

[Mala591]

That’s not going to happen. All it does is (as you have identified) kick the can down the road. The EU want a defined solution to the Irish border before a trade deal.

You are probably right in your analysis and the EU will never offer a compromise that will get through parliament.

It follows then that the only way left to leave the EU is via a no-deal exit and which can only be delivered by a Conservative and Brexit Party pact to not oppose each other in individual constituencies e.g. Burnley would only have a Brexit Party candidate.

[If it be your will]

Well I don’t remember getting a say in the last two extensions, why suddenly the need for a public poll on this one?

Because that was not the reason Labour gave as to why they delayed the election.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

Denying the opportunity for the electorate to have a say

Here you go, here's a petition for you to sign demanding exactly that, the opportunity for the electorate to have a say....

https://bit.ly/2AbqDgZ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Mala591]

You are probably right in your analysis and the EU will never offer a compromise that will get through parliament.

It follows then that the only way left to leave the EU is via a no-deal exit which can only be delivered by a Conservative and Brexit Party pact to not oppose each other in individual constituencies e.g. Burnley would only have a Brexit Party candidate.

[If it be your will]

Please, nobody is stupid enough to put Farage's party into government

You'd really hate that outcome, wouldn't you?? After 3 years of being told we're too thick to vote, us leavers are capable of anything!

[Lancasterclaret]

You are probably right in your analysis and the EU will never offer a compromise that will get through parliament.

It follows then that the only way left to leave the EU is via a no-deal exit and which can only be delivered by a Conservative and Brexit Party pact to not oppose each other in individual constituencies e.g. Burnley would only have a Brexit Party candidate.

Your first line needs some work

if you add "because of UK red lines" after "parliament" its a lot more accurate and 100% truthful.

If the Conservative Party want to ally with the Brexit Party, then they can, but as has already been stated, Farage is marmite, you either think he's brilliant or you think he's a tosser.

Its a tough call for the Tories, but if they make it then the centre and the right of centre will never vote for them.

[Devils_Advocate]

You are probably right in your analysis and the EU will never offer a compromise that will get through parliament.

It follows then that the only way left to leave the EU is via a no-deal exit and which can only be delivered by a Conservative and Brexit Party pact to not oppose each other in individual constituencies e.g. Burnley would only have a Brexit Party candidate.

I think you miss the important part that the EU will not offer a compromise whilst we insist on our red lines. If a Labour or unity govt got in and looked at negotiating a deal based more around the CU then im sure the EU would be open for new talks and a potential compromise.

[martin_p]

Because that was not the reason Labour gave as to why they delayed the election.

They said that they delayed the election so people could vote in a general election on an extension?

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

a no-deal exit and which can only be delivered by a Conservative and Brexit Party pact

Dumb and Dumber join forces to become...

EVEN DUMBERER

Good job you've still got Ace-In-The-Hole Farage to call on when lesser men and women fail.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

Somewhere....

a Dolphin is laughing.

[android]

Oh I still think it’s wrong and it certainly sets a dangerous precedent. But now it’s blown up in Johnson’s face and the bill to stop no deal is done it’s he who needs the time he chopping.

I guess if you accept that Johnson isn’t going to get a new deal and a general election is imminent, now that the no deal bill is done the time wasted matters less.

What is the dangerous precedent in prorogation? It is normally done every year? Look, it was a political manoeuvre but it was ever thus - always done to suit the government of the time. What is the new precedent?

[If it be your will]

What happens if Johnson resigns as PM the day after prorogation?

I'll try and offer a sensible answer:

Apparently he could suggest to the Queen that the leader of the opposition should become PM, and therefore Corbyn would be the one seeking the extension from the EU. This would then be followed by a confidence vote (which Corbyn would obviously lose), and a then a GE.

That is, there'd still be a GE, but Corbyn is the one to be seen to be obstructing Brexit, and not Boris.

[Lancasterclaret]

What is the dangerous precedent in prorogation? It is normally done every year? Look, it was a political manoeuvre but it was ever thus - always done to suit the government of the time. What is the new precedent?

Come off it.

Winning an argument in a court of law involves legalise and lots of legal arguments

Cutting parliamentary time to minimise opposition attempts to stop a "No Deal" is as dodgy as it gets.

And because it was, 21 Conservative MPs switched. and his own brother has stood down.

[If it be your will]

They said that they delayed the election so people could vote in a general election on an extension?

No, they said they turned down a general election because they didn't trust Boris not to set a date till after the 31st October.

[Lancasterclaret]

I'll try and offer a sensible answer:

Apparently he could suggest to the Queen that the leader of the opposition should become PM, and therefore Corbyn would be the one seeking the extension from the EU. This would then be followed by a confidence vote (which Corbyn would obviously lose), and a then a GE.

That is, there'd still be a GE, but Corbyn is the one to be seen to be obstructing Brexit, and not Boris.

You back Corbyn, and even you think he would lose!?!

I'm not sure he would, because it would be blatantly obvious what Johnson was trying to do.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

You'd really hate that outcome, wouldn't you?? After 3 years of being told we're too thick to vote, us leavers are capable of anything!

I'd love it if you put Farage in power.

[If it be your will]

Someone else will be given the chance to form a government.

As I understand it, because parliament is not sitting, that can't happen.

(Please understand this is all in the air, and that nothing is certain, here.)