Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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elwaclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by elwaclaret » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:30 pm

If it be your will wrote:Hey, I'm still left wing - hence my desire to leave the EU.
Yes, same here despite so many posters wanting to paint me as extreme right. Just shows how very few actually know what Labour is meant to represent.

(Edit) sadly, I don’t see many John Smith’s out there to get it back on track, when even Corbyn is running scared of them... makes you think.
Last edited by elwaclaret on Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Bfcboyo » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:39 pm

It will happen on the 31st of October . The EU won't extend any talks and no silly new law will be broken as it will be out of our hands.

Leave is well and truly back on track.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:42 pm

Greenmile wrote:I doubt it
Whatever.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:50 pm

elwaclaret wrote:On the contrary Momentum are the new Militant tendency. They chew up and spit out MP’s who disagree with them. They are a major reason Labour will be hammered, north and south come any election soon. It is momentum dictating policy, including the suicidal deal with the SNP. Who despite being incompetent saw they just couldn’t ‘t lose cosying up to labour. They get to try and bring down the government, or failing that they wipe their main and closest opposition out in Scotland. I would have to rethink my views on the SNP had it been their agenda and not gifted by an inept Labour Party.
(I'm still not sure if this is a wind-up, if so, good one.)

This is entirely concocted in your head. Considering you are able to concoct this in your head, I have to wonder what else, too!
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elwaclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by elwaclaret » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:52 pm

Bfcboyo wrote:It will happen on the 31st of October . The EU won't extend any talks and no silly new law will be broken as it will be out of our hands.

Leave is well and truly back on track.
This of course remains an option for Europe who want a conclusion, possibly even if it is the wrong one. I still expect Johnson’s claims to have some substance though. Otherwise I for one will struggle to balance lying about it to parliament, with getting his way... and with no Labour Party I recognise to vote for, I expect I’ll turn Off my personal politics altogether and merely look on.

So here’s hoping a lot of people are wrong.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by elwaclaret » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:12 pm

If it be your will wrote:(I'm still not sure if this is a wind-up, if so, good one.)

This is entirely concocted in your head. Considering you are able to concoct this in your head, I have to wonder what else, too!
Hehe... I did have certain posters in mind tbh. Guilty.

I do however think Scotland might come back to haunt them. They’ve left a lot of British loyalists in the cold.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:44 pm

Ha Ha. Ringo's going to love this. Looks like the EU Parliament's Brexit representative is offering Bercow a job.

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/stat ... 5798320128" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I never really bought into the idea Bercow was manipulating events in Remain's favour. I do a bit now, though!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:27 pm

elwaclaret wrote:Yes, same here despite so many posters wanting to paint me as extreme right. Just shows how very few actually know what Labour is meant to represent.

(Edit) sadly, I don’t see many John Smith’s out there to get it back on track, when even Corbyn is running scared of them... makes you think.
If you're able to be serious for a moment, perhaps you can tell us what Labour is supposed to represent?

Quite a few posters on here have said Johnson will get a good deal from the EU. He's a leaver, and so is his whole cabinet. He's got a month away from parliament now, to concentrate on it. I wonder how it might go for him? An election is well worth waiting for, if it means Johnson has some extra time to show the country what an idiot he is.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:34 pm

If it be your will wrote:Hey, I'm still left wing - hence my desire to leave the EU.
From memory, at the time of posting that, you had just been pretty much salivating at the prospect of Farage as PM.

It was sort of a joke, in that I’m not really casting doubt on your left-wing credentials, but I stand by my comment that Brexit is doing funny things to folk - Lexiters more than most.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:42 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... eal-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Guardian's take on how Johnson could avoid having to ask for an extension as mandated by law. They all look rather desperate though, so don't get your hopes up.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by elwaclaret » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:01 pm

AndrewJB wrote:If you're able to be serious for a moment, perhaps you can tell us what Labour is supposed to represent?

Quite a few posters on here have said Johnson will get a good deal from the EU. He's a leaver, and so is his whole cabinet. He's got a month away from parliament now, to concentrate on it. I wonder how it might go for him? An election is well worth waiting for, if it means Johnson has some extra time to show the country what an idiot he is.
To be honest Boris doesn’t need time to show he can be idiotic, there are plenty of examples to chose from. That is different to being an idiot.

As for labour... the working man, hard to do for career politicians... nationalisation of key services... impossible within Europe, especially a Europe that largely owns the franchises in the UK.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:13 pm

aggi wrote:Trying to argue that Johnson is trying to check racism whilst he's trying to normalise racism as part of his dog whistle politics is a tough argument to make (which is probably why most seem to deflect to anti-semitism and the Labour party leaving both sides to bitch and whine and nothing actually get sorted out).

Anyway, back to the current situation. This looks like it would be a laugh. I have no idea of how likely it is to succeed or not, I imagine not:

Image
Successful! Should be interesting, although I expect the government to ignore it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:17 pm

Interesting

Johnson might be willing to accept the NI only backstop

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by elwaclaret » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:17 pm

martin_p wrote:Successful! Should be interesting, although I expect the government to ignore it.
If the rumours about Bercow are proved correct, I expect they will far from ignore it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:18 pm

elwaclaret wrote:If the rumours about Bercow are proved correct, I expect they will far from ignore it.
What rumours and what difference will it make.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:20 pm

Interesting looking at the voting, this pretty much represents the balance of power now. Impressive from Boris

Image

I fully expect any documents that are supplied to be heavily redacted, not released due to ECHR, etc

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by elwaclaret » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:20 pm

Post 265#7.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by elwaclaret » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:23 pm

aggi wrote:Interesting looking at the voting, this pretty much represents the balance of power now. Impressive from Boris

Image

I fully expect any documents that are supplied to be heavily redacted, not released due to ECHR, etc
Problem is in reality, they have to be... or at least a select committee, I would have thought. Otherwise no one is going to believe any amendments.

Still I find it shocking only one Labour believed it risking the whip for.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:30 pm

elwaclaret wrote:Post 265#7.
???

267#5 isn’t a number.
Last edited by martin_p on Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by elwaclaret » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:39 pm

martin_p wrote:???
Said I wasn’t being drAwn into tittle tattle again, so I really cannot be bothered.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:39 pm

Post 267 was in 1453 I think.

Fall of Constantinople took our minds of Brexit for a while
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by elwaclaret » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:46 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Post 267 was in 1453 I think.

Fall of Constantinople took our minds of Brexit for a while
You’ll all be pleased to know I’m back to the books properly soon, looking forward to a rest from politics.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:58 pm

elwaclaret wrote:To be honest Boris doesn’t need time to show he can be idiotic, there are plenty of examples to chose from. That is different to being an idiot.

As for labour... the working man, hard to do for career politicians... nationalisation of key services... impossible within Europe, especially a Europe that largely owns the franchises in the UK.
Whether he's been acting largely to his own plan, or on the advice of his advisers, the buck ultimately stops with Johnson on the actions he takes. And so far, regardless of what party you might affiliate with, his actions have brought disastrous results for both his own party, and for his stated aim of taking us out of the EU by 31st October. You could call him "unwise" or "a fool" or anything else kinder than "idiot" - but it doesn't change the position he's found himself in.

Working people looking at the various party manifestos would find those of Labour, and the Green Party are best tailored to their needs. As for nationalisation within the EU:

https://www.anothereurope.org/lets-be-c ... st-eu-law/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:03 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Dominic Cummings talk from 2017 on how how he ran the vote leave campaign. Thought it was really interesting so here's the link in case anyone else fancy's a gander

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDbRxH9Kiy4
He comes across very well in that video and it's clear he's a bright and clever man, yet he seems to have made a great miscalculation regarding recent events.

I presume they were just expecting Labour to agree to an election.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:12 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Interesting

Johnson might be willing to accept the NI only backstop
Over a year ago I posted this:

“I suspect the breakthrough will come in the Irish Sea, because after all, Northern Ireland is a crucial part of the Union but not a big player in terms of the detail. I expect a fudge where the Canada+++ option is agreed but that N Ireland agrees to regulatory equivalence in some industries and that some checks will be carried out at ports between the rest of the UK and NI.”

It sounds like we are getting there. The DUP know if Johnson gets a majority their influence wanes, so they will agree to it now and get a pound of flesh in return.

Boris is going to be happy as Larry if he gets a deal through, gets rid of Bercow, and a majority with a new crop of MPs. Not guaranteed but far from impossible,

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:16 pm

Crosspool

With all the will in the world why does Johnson need the DUP?

He's on -42 MPs

The only way it passes is if he can convince enough Lab MPs to back it.

It's his best chance like

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:17 pm

Spijed wrote:He comes across very well in that video and it's clear he's a bright and clever man, yet he seems to have made a great miscalculation regarding recent events.

I presume they were just expecting Labour to agree to an election.
Agree, hearing him talk through his strategy for vote leave and how he tuned into the mindset of the nation makes you wonder how he's made such a pigs ear of the last few weeks

I hate everything he stands for but really enjoyed listening to him and found the talk fascinating

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:18 pm

martin_p wrote:Successful! Should be interesting, although I expect the government to ignore it.
https://zelo-street.blogspot.com/2019/0 ... ushed.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Zelo Street thinks there might be more to this. :)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:37 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Crosspool

With all the will in the world why does Johnson need the DUP?

He's on -42 MPs

The only way it passes is if he can convince enough Lab MPs to back it.

It's his best chance like
And I’m not sure why a change to the backstop (which Johnson said ‘must go’ by the way) would influence Labour. That wasn’t their issue with the original WA.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:41 pm

martin_p wrote:And I’m not sure why a change to the backstop (which Johnson said ‘must go’ by the way) would influence Labour. That wasn’t their issue with the original WA.
He needs a deal.

If he gets a deal, and parliament rejects it, then he's got a huge stick in a GE.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:42 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:He needs a deal.

If he gets a deal, and parliament rejects it, then he's got a huge stick in a GE.
Not if it’s a deal that includes any form of the backstop he said ‘must go’. It’s a major climb down and one the opposition can make the most of.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:46 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:He needs a deal.

If he gets a deal, and parliament rejects it, then he's got a huge stick in a GE.
Will the ERG support him?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:47 pm

martin_p wrote:Not if it’s a deal that includes any form of the backstop he said ‘must go’. It’s a major climb down and one the opposition can make the most of.
Of course, but a NI only backstop to middle England is clearly a price worth paying for Brexit.

Throws NI under a bus, but how many Conservative MPs will that return for him?

He is gambling all on him winning the seats he loses in London, Scotland and the SW with what he wins by being super Brexity in the midlands and north.

If he can agree this deal, then I'd much prefer it to the uncertainty of a GE without one.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:48 pm

AndrewJB wrote:Will the ERG support him?
And will Farage stand candidates in every seat, saying that it's a bad deal?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:49 pm

AndrewJB wrote:Will the ERG support him?
Who knows with that bunch of zealots?

Enough might I think, an election without a deal and after Nov 1st would be a huge hurdle for the Conservatives to leap.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:52 pm

martin_p wrote:Not if it’s a deal that includes any form of the backstop he said ‘must go’. It’s a major climb down and one the opposition can make the most of.
Plenty of conservatives are willing to lose Scotland if it means Brexit. I can't imagine they'll be that worried about losing Northern Ireland.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:00 pm

AndrewJB wrote:https://zelo-street.blogspot.com/2019/0 ... ushed.html

Zelo Street thinks there might be more to this. :)
If there's any truth to any of this (my inkling is not, but I don't know), isn't all this going a bit far? The whole House seems to have gone into a sort of vicious, humiliating, frenzied mode. Bills are being prepared with the nastiest of intent, then voted on. A lot of precedents are being set here (yes, I include proroguing with intent in that), and new depths of political depravity are being breached on an hourly basis. These precedents can't ever be undone.

Fun though all this Brexit stuff is, everything will have to put back together again at some stage. Or will it be that from this day forth every piece of legislation will be expressly designed to humiliate your opponent, with psychopathic MPs pouring over each word of a bill saying Yeah, put that sentence in. That'll really **** him up, big style?

I like a bit of a tussle amongst MPs - I used to be jealous of those parliaments where people punched each other and stuff - but even I'm wondering if we've reached the point where everyone needs to step back from the brink.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:37 pm

Johnson needs to resign. He can't do a thing in Parliament because he hasn't a majority and most of the independents (including the 21 who claimed to be disappointed to lose the Tory whip) are voting against anything he puts forward. If he proposed that tomorrow would be Tuesday, he would probably lose.

So the only hope left is for him to resign and see if Parliament can find a PM. See how many of the ex-Tories will suddenly decide that Swinton or Corbyn are the "right man for the job". I suspect the ex-Tories have gone so far down the road of hating the Tory party that the "Government of National Unity for the 48" would have legs.

But sooner or later there would be an election, and we would have seen what a shambles the "we're opposed to procedural shenanigans except when we do them ourselves" party might become.

For three years, Labour hasn't had a Brexit policy except to see what the Tories wanted, and oppose it. If they finally had to make a decision, they'd be stuffed. Hopefully.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:38 pm

If we actually leave with a deal where will that leave Nigel Farage and the Brexit party?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:39 pm

dsr wrote:Johnson needs to resign. He can't do a thing in Parliament because he hasn't a majority and most of the independents (including the 21 who claimed to be disappointed to lose the Tory whip) are voting against anything he puts forward. If he proposed that tomorrow would be Tuesday, he would probably lose.
If Johnson had proposed anything other than a general election yet you might have a point.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:40 pm

Spijed wrote:If we actually leave with a deal where will that leave Nigel Farage and the Brexit party?
Complaining it’s not the Brexit people voted for.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by tiger76 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:08 am

martin_p wrote:Complaining it’s not the Brexit people voted for.
Perhaps but their complaints will fall on deaf ears i suspect,there's plenty of evidence that Farage campaigned for a Norway style arrangement.

To no-one's surprise the Lib Dems are now a clear remain party.

Jo Swinson appears to have confirmed a report in the Guardian that the Liberal Democrats are set to officially back revoking Article 50.

The article reports Ms Swinson saying she would support the cancellation of Brexit. Her party is expected to write the policy into its election manifesto, the newspaper reports.

In response to a question about the article by Tory MP Bob Seely, Ms Swinson says: "The honorable gentleman cannot be surprised that the Liberal Democrats are a party that wishes to stop Brexit."

Luciana Berger was interviewed just now and stated a majority Lib Dem government would carry out such a policy.

With the best will in the world the Lib Dems aren't going to win a FPTP GE,however they potentially could form part of a coalition.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by atlantalad » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:31 am

If it be your will wrote:If there's any truth to any of this (my inkling is not, but I don't know), isn't all this going a bit far? The whole House seems to have gone into a sort of vicious, humiliating, frenzied mode. Bills are being prepared with the nastiest of intent, then voted on. A lot of precedents are being set here (yes, I include proroguing with intent in that), and new depths of political depravity are being breached on an hourly basis. These precedents can't ever be undone.

Fun though all this Brexit stuff is, everything will have to put back together again at some stage. Or will it be that from this day forth every piece of legislation will be expressly designed to humiliate your opponent, with psychopathic MPs pouring over each word of a bill saying Yeah, put that sentence in. That'll really **** him up, big style?

I like a bit of a tussle amongst MPs - I used to be jealous of those parliaments where people punched each other and stuff - but even I'm wondering if we've reached the point where everyone needs to step back from the brink.
Step back? I think the cliff edge has been transgressed and is disappearing rapidly as parliamentary procedures, rules, ethics and courtesies sumersault into a black hole. New (low) precedents have been set and the genie is well and truely out of the bottle when it comes to future precedents. Really sad reflection on the 'mother' of all Parliaments that its current MPs are using it merely for tit-for-tat vendettas and perceived point scoring. Bring on a GE to rid ourselves of this shower - any new Martin Bells out there?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by tiger76 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:38 am

Unsurprisingly GE vote lost again the numbers even lower than last time.

Government defeated on motion calling

House of Commons

Parliament

The government has been defeated on a motion pushing for an early general election because not enough MPs supported the PM’s call.

Under the Fixed Term Parliaments Acts, Boris Johnson needed the support of two-thirds of MPs - at least 434 - to trigger an early poll.

But only 293 MPs voted for an election – with 46 against. We’ll find out how many MPs abstained on the motion later.

The SNP abstained that much i do know one of their MP'S admitted that.

6 out of 6 lost votes for Boris.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:28 am

If it be your will wrote:If there's any truth to any of this (my inkling is not, but I don't know), isn't all this going a bit far? The whole House seems to have gone into a sort of vicious, humiliating, frenzied mode. Bills are being prepared with the nastiest of intent, then voted on. A lot of precedents are being set here (yes, I include proroguing with intent in that), and new depths of political depravity are being breached on an hourly basis. These precedents can't ever be undone.

Fun though all this Brexit stuff is, everything will have to put back together again at some stage. Or will it be that from this day forth every piece of legislation will be expressly designed to humiliate your opponent, with psychopathic MPs pouring over each word of a bill saying Yeah, put that sentence in. That'll really **** him up, big style?

I like a bit of a tussle amongst MPs - I used to be jealous of those parliaments where people punched each other and stuff - but even I'm wondering if we've reached the point where everyone needs to step back from the brink.
You’ve got your wish with the parliamentary tussle. I think this parliament reflects the weakness of the government. The PM is a wannabe dictator, and reaping what he sowed. If government officials are using unofficial lines of communication to hide their conversations from public view, then it’s right this should be stamped on. As others have pointed out, using burner phones and encrypted messaging is the way of the drug dealer - not a government. Now that parliament has indicated its disapproval of. No deal, it’s right that government information on tha subject comes out.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:32 am

atlantalad wrote:Step back? I think the cliff edge has been transgressed and is disappearing rapidly as parliamentary procedures, rules, ethics and courtesies sumersault into a black hole. New (low) precedents have been set and the genie is well and truely out of the bottle when it comes to future precedents. Really sad reflection on the 'mother' of all Parliaments that its current MPs are using it merely for tit-for-tat vendettas and perceived point scoring. Bring on a GE to rid ourselves of this shower - any new Martin Bells out there?
What examples of tit for tat vendettas do you have from this parliament? I just see a democratically elected house holding an undemocratic executive to account.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:42 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Over a year ago I posted this:

“I suspect the breakthrough will come in the Irish Sea, because after all, Northern Ireland is a crucial part of the Union but not a big player in terms of the detail. I expect a fudge where the Canada+++ option is agreed but that N Ireland agrees to regulatory equivalence in some industries and that some checks will be carried out at ports between the rest of the UK and NI.”

It sounds like we are getting there. The DUP know if Johnson gets a majority their influence wanes, so they will agree to it now and get a pound of flesh in return.

Boris is going to be happy as Larry if he gets a deal through, gets rid of Bercow, and a majority with a new crop of MPs. Not guaranteed but far from impossible,
How does he get Nigel Farage on-side in that situation, or even members of his own party, such as the likes of Redwood JRM, Bill Cash etc.?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Mala591 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:55 am

Sobering statistic:

On the third vote

90% of Conservative MPs voted for the EU/UK withdrawal agreement
2% of Labour MPs voted for the agreement

Remember this statistic when you vote at the next General Election

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:04 am

Also remember it was an agreement negotiated by the Conservative government, without cross party talks, driven my the hard Brexit element of the party which was in contrast to the type of leave Labour campaigned for and was campaigned for by vote leave.

If the government are going to completely ignore the rest of the house they need to make sure they have the backing and majority of their own MPs to get the agreement passed otherwise we end up in a ridiculous stalemate with a polarised and divisive country

I would therefore say remember the Conservative party ignored everyone else for the own interests and could still only get 90% of their party to support them.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:08 am

AndrewJB wrote:What examples of tit for tat vendettas do you have from this parliament? I just see a democratically elected house holding an undemocratic executive to account.
Hm. I don't really want to be seen as the sanctimonious one demanding calm and reasonableness, and don't get me wrong - watching the implosion of Tory party has its merit. But I'm not sure about any of this anymore - from either side. Demanding all private communications of MPs (have I understood this right?) seems invasive to me. Must it come to this?

(And the obvious response to your second sentence - should somebody choose to make it - would be a reminder that the undemocratic executive is actually the one pleading for an election.)
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