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Lancasterclaret
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by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:51 pm
RingoMcCartney wrote:No, no ,no no.
Now that you've started swerving.
Before the result of a general election is implemented. The losing candidates claim that the policies of the winning candidates will do untold damage to the constituencies and refuse to accept the result.
3 and a half years later, this parliament and its MPS still sit defying the general election result
Fair? Democratic?
Already been answered by the post above this one
A hung parliament doesn't solve the current issue, so a GE runs the risk of just making things worse.
A 2nd ref with a legally binding result would solve this one way or the other.
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elwaclaret
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by elwaclaret » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:51 pm
dsr wrote:I can't believe that anyone who objects to Boris Johnson's legal manoueverings could say with a straight face that the referendum was not binding.
Referendums are not normally binding on Parliament. However in this case, said in both leaflet prints that any decision would be enacted... thus making it so.
Last edited by
elwaclaret on Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RingoMcCartney
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by RingoMcCartney » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:51 pm
martin_p wrote:Unlawful. Of course the referendum was advisory so in law had to go through parliament and not happen before Parliament even opens like the result of a general election.
The 1975 referendum result was also non binding.
It was implemented.
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Lancasterclaret
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by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:54 pm
elwaclaret wrote:Referendums are not normally binding on Parliament. However in this case, said in both leaflet prints that any decision would be enacted... thus making it so.
Thank **** you are not a lawyer.
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elwaclaret
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by elwaclaret » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:55 pm
Lancasterclaret wrote:Thank **** you are not a lawyer.
Thank the same you are not an MP
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Lancasterclaret
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by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:57 pm
elwaclaret wrote:Thank the same you are not an MP
I don't make stuff up and try to pass it off as fact.
Thats what you just did.
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RingoMcCartney
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by RingoMcCartney » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:57 pm
Lancasterclaret wrote:Already been answered by the post above this one
A hung parliament doesn't solve the current issue, so a GE runs the risk of just making things worse.
A 2nd ref with a legally binding result would solve this one way or the other.
No I asked you, to perhaps give you an idea of how 17.4 million brexiteers feel, if the result of any new general election, was not implemented, perhaps stopped by Gina Miller style court case. And today's parliament was still in place after 3.5 years.
Would you see it as being fair or democratic?
You're doing what you always do Lancaster claret you twist, turn and swerve to avoid a straight forward question.
Would it be fair or democratic?
Yes
Or
No?
Get it of
your chest.
Last edited by
RingoMcCartney on Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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martin_p
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by martin_p » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:57 pm
RingoMcCartney wrote:The 1975 referendum result was also non binding.
It was implemented.
Yes, well done for correctly identifying that non binding means the government can choose to follow the vote or not.
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martin_p
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by martin_p » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:59 pm
RingoMcCartney wrote:No I asked you, to perhaps give you an idea of how 17.4 million brexiteers feel, if the result of any new general election, was not implemented, perhaps stopped by Gina Miller style court case. And today's parliament was still in place after 3.5 years.
Would you see it as being fair or democratic?
You're doing what you always do Lancaster claret you twist, turn and swerve to avoid a straight forward question.
Would it be fair or democratic?
Yes
Or
No?
Get it of your chest.
It’s impossible. You’re comparing apples and giraffes!
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elwaclaret
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by elwaclaret » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:59 pm
Lancasterclaret wrote:I don't make stuff up and try to pass it off as fact.
Thats what you just did.
Ok I made it up, because you are the only one watching anything on Brexit. It has been debated more than once. But hey ho as usual you know best. So ok
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dsr
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by dsr » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:01 pm
Lancasterclaret wrote:Already been answered by the post above this one
A hung parliament doesn't solve the current issue, so a GE runs the risk of just making things worse.
A 2nd ref with a legally binding result would solve this one way or the other.
How would you make the result binding? There may be an Act of Parliament before the the referendum saying "The Government will implement what you decide", but then if the public 'get it wrong' again, what's to stop them passing another Act of Parliament repealing the first one?
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Lancasterclaret
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by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:01 pm
RingoMcCartney wrote:No I asked you, to perhaps give you an idea of how 17.4 million brexiteers feel, if the result of any new general election, was not implemented, perhaps stopped by Gina Miller style court case. And today's parliament was still in place after 3.5 years.
Would you see it as being fair or democratic?
You're doing what you always do Lancaster claret you twist, turn and swerve to avoid a straight forward question.
Would it be fair or democratic?
Yes
Or
No?
Its a daft question Ringo
And please, I pray that you have some jolt of self awareness when you post!
turn and swerve to avoid a straight forward question.
I mean, come on!
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martin_p
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by martin_p » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:02 pm
elwaclaret wrote:Referendums are not normally binding on Parliament. However in this case, said in both leaflet prints that any decision would be enacted... thus making it so.
You think putting something in a leaflet makes it legally binding?
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Lancasterclaret
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by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:03 pm
dsr wrote:How would you make the result binding? There may be an Act of Parliament before the the referendum saying "The Government will implement what you decide", but then if the public 'get it wrong' again, what's to stop them passing another Act of Parliament repealing the first one?
I have absolutely no idea dsr.
I will say though if its a very close result, it could make things worse.
Maybe, just maybe, there are not any easy solutions.
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Lancasterclaret
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by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:04 pm
elwaclaret wrote:Ok I made it up, because you are the only one watching anything on Brexit. It has been debated more than once. But hey ho as usual you know best. So ok
It is not legally binding.
It really is that simple.
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RingoMcCartney
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by RingoMcCartney » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:06 pm
Lancasterclaret wrote:Its a daft question Ringo
And please, I pray that you have some jolt of self awareness when you post!
I mean, come on!
I've been here many many times before lancaster claret.
It's only "daft" because you wont answer it.
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elwaclaret
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by elwaclaret » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:06 pm
It really is not worth trying to discuss anything on here. Enjoy yourselves
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Lancasterclaret
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by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:07 pm
elwaclaret wrote:It really is not worth trying to discuss anything on here. Enjoy yourselves
Jesus, what is wrong with admitting that you are wrong?
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dsr
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by dsr » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:07 pm
martin_p wrote:You think putting something in a leaflet makes it legally binding?
I suspect that bearing in mind the Scottish's court's verdict on prorogation, it perhaps might have been legally binding. If the government's defence was "the referendum wasn't binding and we were lying when we said it was", that defence might not stand up. The courts (it seems) reach further than we might have thought.
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RingoMcCartney
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by RingoMcCartney » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:07 pm
martin_p wrote:You think putting something in a leaflet makes it legally binding?
Politically binding.
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aggi
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by aggi » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:08 pm
dsr wrote:Shame they didn't bring this out a day earlier. There might have been even more fun in the House of commons last night.
I can't be the only one to find it a bit distasteful that the Labour Party sat there singing the Red Flag shortly after voting to prevent a general election. They may well claim that they are just using political tricks and chicanery because they disapprove in principle of the government using political tricks and chicanery, but it doesn't sit well.
The fact that the refusal to vote for a general election is being seen as such a stick to beat the labour party with is an indication of how shallow politics are in this country at the moment. As most on here will be aware, there are very good reasons not to have a general election at the moment (even George Osborne was defending Corbyn the other day): asking politicians to believe that a PM with a track record for dishonesty won't change the election date to get his own way is naive at best.
However, even though there are perfectly good reasons the spin is just trying to gloss over that and hope that people don't notice.
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martin_p
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by martin_p » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:08 pm
dsr wrote:How would you make the result binding? There may be an Act of Parliament before the the referendum saying "The Government will implement what you decide", but then if the public 'get it wrong' again, what's to stop them passing another Act of Parliament repealing the first one?
Nothing. Parliament is sovereign.
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Lancasterclaret
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by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:08 pm
RingoMcCartney wrote:I've been here many many times before lancaster claret.
It's only "daft" because you wont answer it.
Its daft because its desperate!
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RingoMcCartney
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by RingoMcCartney » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:09 pm
martin_p wrote:You think putting something in a leaflet makes it legally binding?
It means Jack Shoite.
Labour put "we respect the referendum result" on their manifesto.
That worked out well didn't it Marty !
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Lancasterclaret
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by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:09 pm
dsr wrote:I suspect that bearing in mind the Scottish's court's verdict on prorogation, it perhaps might have been legally binding. If the government's defence was "the referendum wasn't binding and we were lying when we said it was", that defence might not stand up. The courts (it seems) reach further than we might have thought.
I seriously recommend you read up on the judgement if you think that dsr.
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Lancasterclaret
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by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:11 pm
RingoMcCartney wrote:I've been here many many times before.
You certainly have!
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martin_p
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by martin_p » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:12 pm
RingoMcCartney wrote:It means Jack Shoite.
Labour put "we respect the referendum result" on their manifesto.
That worked out well didn't it Marty !
They also put that they would ‘reject ‘no deal’ as a viable option’ in their manifesto at the last election, which you voted for. So your complaining over Labour voting to stop no deal is a little hypocritical to say the least.
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martin_p on Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lancasterclaret
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by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:12 pm
Anyway, Political editor of the Daily Mail
"Boris Johnson rules out election pact with Brexit Party. Senior Tory source: ‘Neither Nigel Farage not Arron Banks are fit and proper persons and they should never be allowed anywhere near government"
At least Johnson isn't completely daft.
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martin_p
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by martin_p » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:13 pm
RingoMcCartney wrote:Politically binding.
That’s not a real thing though is it.
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RingoMcCartney
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by RingoMcCartney » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:13 pm
Lancasterclaret wrote:Its daft because its desperate!
One man's "desperate" is another man's "straight forward answer avoiding"
I'd never get an yes or no from you in a month of sundays. Not from somebody who, "has the unfortunate habit of being right most of the time" eh!?
I'll stop asking now. It saves me from having to reply to half a dozen posts posts of sneering and moral superiority!
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RingoMcCartney
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by RingoMcCartney » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:19 pm
martin_p wrote:They also put that they would ‘reject ‘no deal’ as a viable option’ in their manifesto at the last election, which you voted for. So your complaining over Labour voting to stop no deal is a little hypocritical to say the least.
Labour's admission that they want to secure a brilliant deal that will "protect jobs and manufacturing in areas that have been worst hit" then have a referendum, where they will campaign against it
Proves they've haven't really wanted no deal. They've really wanted no brexit!
If carlsberg did hypocrisy!
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Rileybobs
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by Rileybobs » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:20 pm
Are people really saying that the referendum result was legally binding? Really? If you say that you’re either embarrassingly uninformed or just blatantly lying. Either way it makes your other contributions to this topic null and void.
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Lancasterclaret
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by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:20 pm
RingoMcCartney wrote:One man's "desperate" is another man's "straight forward answer avoiding"
I'd never get an yes or no from you in a month of sundays. Not from somebody who, "has the unfortunate habit of being right most of the time" eh!?
I'll stop asking now. It saves me from having to reply to half a dozen posts posts of sneering and moral superiority!
You'll get a yes if you argued properly and backed it up with facts so I could see where you were coming from. You've 100% been able to do that before, but not on this one.
I'm still waiting for your answer on the "hung parliament" btw
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martin_p
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by martin_p » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:20 pm
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AlargeClaret
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by AlargeClaret » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:24 pm
Rileybobs wrote:Are people really saying that the referendum result was legally binding? Really? If you say that you’re either embarrassingly uninformed or just blatantly lying. Either way it makes your other contributions to this topic null and void.
So it was just a laugh was it? bit of bants bit of larking about ? To even imagine the reaction if remain won and Leave refused to honour it is a thought to behold
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martin_p
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by martin_p » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:24 pm
RingoMcCartney wrote:Labour's admission that they want to secure a brilliant deal that will "protect jobs and manufacturing in areas that have been worst hit" then have a referendum, where they will campaign against it
Proves they've haven't really wanted no deal. They've really wanted no brexit!
If carlsberg did hypocrisy!
I’m talking about their last manifesto, that you voted for, that means you agree that no deal should be rejected. It’s there in their manifesto in black and white. Surely you knew this when you voted for them? It’s after the bit where they talk about wanting a deal with some sort of customs union (you voted for that too so I assume you agree with it) which meant they couldn’t support the May deal.
Who’s wriggling now Wrongo?
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martin_p on Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Tall Paul
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by Tall Paul » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:26 pm
What time was Ringo on the radio this morning?
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martin_p
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by martin_p » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:26 pm
AlargeClaret wrote:So it was just a laugh was it? bit of bants bit of larking about ? To even imagine the reaction if remain won and Leave refused to honour it is a thought to behold
How pray tell could Leave have refused to honour it? It’s the default position. Would they have somehow managed to force a deal through parliament that meant us leaving anyway (something they’ve failed to do over the last three years even with public support)?
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Rileybobs
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by Rileybobs » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:27 pm
AlargeClaret wrote:So it was just a laugh was it? bit of bants bit of larking about ? To even imagine the reaction if remain won and Leave refused to honour it is a thought to behold
Don’t skirt around my point, it’s a simple question with only two possible answers. Was the EU referendum legally binding? Yes or no?
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TheFamilyCat
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by TheFamilyCat » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:32 pm
Tall Paul wrote:What time was Ringo on the radio this morning?
Ten past Stella
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quoonbeatz
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by quoonbeatz » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:36 pm
elwaclaret wrote:Referendums are not normally binding on Parliament. However in this case, said in both leaflet prints that any decision would be enacted... thus making it so.
What? A Tory government misleading the public? Whatever next?!
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RingoMcCartney
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by RingoMcCartney » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:37 pm
Lancasterclaret wrote:You'll get a yes if you argued properly and backed it up with facts so I could see where you were coming from. You've 100% been able to do that before, but not on this one.
I'm still waiting for your answer on the "hung parliament" btw
You had the chance to give me a simple yes or no to a very straight forward, clear question.-
", if the result of any new general election, was not implemented, perhaps stopped by Gina Miller style court case. And today's parliament was still in place after 3.5 years.
Would you see it as being fair or democratic?
You failed.
I'll answer your hung parliament question the moment after you answer my question.
Which , going on your past inability to answer questions you sneeringly label as daft and desperate , will probably be in excess of 3.5 years.
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RingoMcCartney
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by RingoMcCartney » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:37 pm
Tall Paul wrote:What time was Ringo on the radio this morning?
Around 9.20
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dsr
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by dsr » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:39 pm
Rileybobs wrote:Are people really saying that the referendum result was legally binding? Really? If you say that you’re either embarrassingly uninformed or just blatantly lying. Either way it makes your other contributions to this topic null and void.
No, what people are saying is that it is binding. Or should be. It is sometimes claimed that Parliament is sovereign - which I certainly hope it isn't, because in a democracy Parliament must never be sovereign - and therefore the same people (mostly) claim that Parliament is entitled to change its mind about carrying out the people's lawfully expressed wishes if they think the people have got it wrong.
But what some of us are generally saying is that for the government to offer a referendum, to promise it is binding, and then to say that it wasn't binding after all and they were going to ignore the result because it was wrong, would be such a flagrant and outrageous flouting of democracy that it just could not happen.
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TheFamilyCat
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by TheFamilyCat » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:39 pm
martin_p wrote:I’m talking about their last manifesto, that you voted for, that means you agree that no deal should be rejected. It’s there in their manifesto in black and white. Surely you knew this when you voted for them? It’s after the bit where they talk about wanting a deal with some sort of customs union (you voted for that too so I assume you agree with it) which meant they couldn’t support the May deal.
Who’s wriggling now Wrongo?
I thought you had heard him telling Nicky Campbell that he voted Labour because his dad told him to.
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claret2018
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by claret2018 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:41 pm
Ringo you'd make an excellent politician. You haven't the faintest idea what you're on about, but you don't let that stop you.
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Tall Paul
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by Tall Paul » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:46 pm
dsr wrote:No, what people are saying is that it is binding. Or should be. It is sometimes claimed that Parliament is sovereign - which I certainly hope it isn't, because in a democracy Parliament must never be sovereign - and therefore the same people (mostly) claim that Parliament is entitled to change its mind about carrying out the people's lawfully expressed wishes if they think the people have got it wrong.
But what some of us are generally saying is that for the government to offer a referendum, to promise it is binding, and then to say that it wasn't binding after all and they were going to ignore the result because it was wrong, would be such a flagrant and outrageous flouting of democracy that it just could not happen.
It's a good job the result of the referendum hasn't been, and isn't being, ignored then.