Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:47 pm

dsr wrote:No, what people are saying is that it is binding. Or should be. It is sometimes claimed that Parliament is sovereign - which I certainly hope it isn't, because in a democracy Parliament must never be sovereign - and therefore the same people (mostly) claim that Parliament is entitled to change its mind about carrying out the people's lawfully expressed wishes if they think the people have got it wrong.

But what some of us are generally saying is that for the government to offer a referendum, to promise it is binding, and then to say that it wasn't binding after all and they were going to ignore the result because it was wrong, would be such a flagrant and outrageous flouting of democracy that it just could not happen.
a) Parliament is sovereign.
b) the referendum result will be implemented unless there’s new direction from the electorate, via an election or referendum, not to do so. No one is saying otherwise as far as I’m aware.

Rileybobs
Posts: 16689
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:37 pm
Been Liked: 6902 times
Has Liked: 1471 times
Location: Leeds

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Rileybobs » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:49 pm

dsr wrote:No, what people are saying is that it is binding. Or should be. It is sometimes claimed that Parliament is sovereign - which I certainly hope it isn't, because in a democracy Parliament must never be sovereign - and therefore the same people (mostly) claim that Parliament is entitled to change its mind about carrying out the people's lawfully expressed wishes if they think the people have got it wrong.

But what some of us are generally saying is that for the government to offer a referendum, to promise it is binding, and then to say that it wasn't binding after all and they were going to ignore the result because it was wrong, would be such a flagrant and outrageous flouting of democracy that it just could not happen.
Maybe it should be binding, but it wasn’t. So those who claim that it was are misinformed or making it up. It’s really not difficult to stick to the point without muddying the water - you and others claim that the referendum was binding (legally or otherwise) - it quite clearly and factually wasn’t so stop making things up.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:49 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Nobody Marty!

I just know what to say and where to say it, to get more bang for my buck!!

:lol: :lol:


And its certainly not by wasting my time schooling hapless clowns like you on here!! Who only admit I'm right if they use their own words to agree with me!!!!!!!


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
So you agree that no deal should be rejected, we should leave the EU with a customs union and that all the times you’ve said you don’t on here is just trolling. Glad that’s sorted. We all knew your bullshit couldn’t be real, but nice to have it confirmed. Time to retire this character and concentrate on Liz?

You seemed to have trouble matching answers to questions on the radio this morning.

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:00 pm

AlargeClaret wrote:So it was just a laugh was it? bit of bants bit of larking about ? To even imagine the reaction if remain won and Leave refused to honour it is a thought to behold
Leave won, and they've failed to take us out of the EU in the last three years (three years!). Bear in mind the party in power was committed to leaving, and had a working majority. And they failed. The blame for all of this lies at the feet of the government, and nowhere else.
These 4 users liked this post: LeuvenClaret Rick_Muller Taffy on the wing longsidepies

Right_winger
Posts: 2105
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:28 pm
Been Liked: 492 times
Has Liked: 411 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Right_winger » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:13 pm

AndrewJB wrote:Leave won, and they've failed to take us out of the EU in the last three years (three years!). Bear in mind the party in power was committed to leaving, and had a working majority. And they failed. The blame for all of this lies at the feet of the government, and nowhere else.
Your beloved Labour Party also committed to leaving but the hardcore remainers within the party has done everything to trash and reverse the referendum
Result. Obviously reversing the referendum has been helped by the most inept government we have seen in a long time.

The loser in all of this is democracy. Not many if any MPs can come out of this not smelling like ****.

The whole debacle proves that our FPTP system requires changing.

I will always maintain that if a majority in Parliament wanted Brexit it would have happened but they don’t hence why our democracy is in the shitter.
These 2 users liked this post: RingoMcCartney claret_in_exile

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:15 pm

martin_p wrote:So you agree that no deal should be rejected, we should leave the EU with a customs union and that all the times you’ve said you don’t on here is just trolling. Glad that’s sorted. We all knew your bullshit couldn’t be real, but nice to have it confirmed. Time to retire this character and concentrate on Liz?

You seemed to have trouble matching answers to questions on the radio this morning.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


You really are one angry bunny today Marty , aren't you!!
Having lost the arguement all week, so far. You've been absolutely reduced. Reduced, to bringing the ultimate sign of having no answer, and looking for a way out of your predicament. By introducing the parody account into your arguement!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I've learnt that when you ring up radio stations the research team that you speak to, wants to hear certain viewpoints. Frame your arguement in a certain way, and you'll get air time. Be too upfront and you wont.

You should try it sometime Marty. Think about it!

Instead of sounding ridiculous to a few dozen burnley fans, you could go nation wide to millions!!!


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:15 pm

Right_winger wrote:Your beloved Labour Party also committed to leaving but the hardcore remainers within the party has done everything to trash and reverse the referendum
Result. Obviously reversing the referendum has been helped by the most inept government we have seen in a long time.

The loser in all of this is democracy. Not many if any MPs can come out of this not smelling like ****.

The whole debacle proves that our FPTP system requires changing.

I will always maintain that if a majority in Parliament wanted Brexit it would have happened but they don’t hence why our democracy is in the shitter.
Nope, not true. Labour has followed its manifesto to reject a no deal Brexit and try and get a deal with a customs union. Had that been agreed in the talks that May belatedly held we’d be out by now.

dsr
Posts: 15139
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 4549 times
Has Liked: 2241 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:19 pm

martin_p wrote:a) Parliament is sovereign.
b) the referendum result will be implemented unless there’s new direction from the electorate, via an election or referendum, not to do so. No one is saying otherwise as far as I’m aware.
Parliament is not sovereign. Parliament is responsible to the people. Parliamentary sovereignty means that parliament is sovereign over all other government bodies (including the monarch and the courts), but it does not mean that it is sovereign over the people.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:21 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote::lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


You really are one angry bunny today Marty , aren't you!!
Having lost the arguement all week, so far. You've been absolutely reduced. Reduced, to bringing the ultimate sign of having no answer, and looking for a way out of your predicament. By introducing the parody account into your arguement!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I've learnt that when you ring up radio stations the research team that you speak to, wants to hear certain viewpoints. Frame your arguement in a certain way, and you'll get air time. Be too upfront and you wont.

You should try it sometime Marty. Think about it!

Instead of sounding ridiculous to a few dozen burnley fans, you could go nation wide to millions!!!


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
So you lied when you said you voted Labour

I’m not angry about anything, just amused by your wriggling over your obvious hypocrisy. Maybe you should drop your Wrongo character and just be ‘Paul from Burnley’ as you came over a lot more considered, less manic and altogether more agreeable on the radio. You even managed to change your view on something which would never happen on here.

tiger76
Posts: 25697
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:43 pm
Been Liked: 4644 times
Has Liked: 9849 times
Location: Glasgow

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by tiger76 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:22 pm

AndrewJB wrote:Leave won, and they've failed to take us out of the EU in the last three years (three years!). Bear in mind the party in power was committed to leaving, and had a working majority. And they failed. The blame for all of this lies at the feet of the government, and nowhere else.
If the government had adopted a sensible negotiating stance from the start,and gone down a Norway type deal path we wouldn't be in this mess,how on earth did we get from we'll stay in the CU,and have access to the SM,too now the government seemingly prepared to ride roughshod over parliament,the courts and embroiling the Queen in being misled at the very least,if Boris is still PM in a few weeks when parliament reconvenes,he can except a frosty reception at the palace,nothing's been said publicly but by all accounts the palace is very unhappy,JRM might well be in the firing line as well he was the messenger who went all the way to Balmoral to request the prorogation after all.

This behaviour goes beyond brexit it's about the government being accountable to parliament and acting within the law.
These 2 users liked this post: AndrewJB Claret-On-A-T-Rex

ŽižkovClaret
Posts: 6962
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:50 pm
Been Liked: 2145 times
Has Liked: 3063 times
Location: Praha
Contact:

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by ŽižkovClaret » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:23 pm

MP's are elected to represent the best interests of their constituents. They are not necessarily intended to merely directly apply the wished of their constituents.

This can be controversial, but it is the way it is designed. Hence Rory Stewart for example, from a leave voting area, may now judge that his largely agricultural constituency is not served by a No Deal Brexit and it would be preferable to remain rather than see that happen, despite what was voted for in 2016.
These 2 users liked this post: AndrewJB Claret-On-A-T-Rex

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:23 pm

dsr wrote:Parliament is not sovereign. Parliament is responsible to the people. Parliamentary sovereignty means that parliament is sovereign over all other government bodies (including the monarch and the courts), but it does not mean that it is sovereign over the people.
Parliament is sovereign, it has the power to make laws and has supreme authority. It’s certainly answerable to the people every five years, but the people have no legal power to dictate what it does or doesn’t do.
These 4 users liked this post: Lancasterclaret ZizkovClaret claret_in_exile Claret-On-A-T-Rex

Spijed
Posts: 17112
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 2892 times
Has Liked: 1294 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:25 pm

From Norman Smith BBC:

"The response of Team Johnson this morning has been to say "calm down, we are not recalling Parliament now, just wait and see what the Supreme Court decides."
But any way you look at it, this is bad for the prime minister and has the potential to become a full-blown bombshell moment for him.
Bad because he has been judged to have behaved unlawfully and, more than that, the judges clearly believe he misled Parliament.
If the Supreme Court upholds their view, it seems he will have no option but to recall Parliament which would be a political humiliation for him.
On top of that, MPs will almost certainly vote to scrap the party conference recess and sit through September right up to the 31 October Brexit deadline.
The bottom line, to put it mildly, is that an awful lot is hanging on what the judges decide on Tuesday."

Right_winger
Posts: 2105
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:28 pm
Been Liked: 492 times
Has Liked: 411 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Right_winger » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:27 pm

martin_p wrote:Nope, not true. Labour has followed its manifesto to reject a no deal Brexit and try and get a deal with a customs union. Had that been agreed in the talks that May belatedly held we’d be out by now.
Yeah ok if you believe that then you must also believe in the tooth fairy.

Labour are now ( publicly ) voicing their view that they want a referendum and will campaign for remain against any such deal which may or may not be agreed. This has clearly always been the case, Corbyn has been trying to hoodwink the public but other members have let the cat out the bag.

The tories are no better just in case anyone accuses me of being biased.

By labour going full remain they are alienating their leave seats. I’d expect Labour to destroy the Lib Dem’s ( who are a wishy washy party anyway ) by backing remain but let the Brexit party in their leave seats.

I’d personally love to see the 2 main party’s destroyed at the polls as it’s what they deserve.
These 2 users liked this post: RingoMcCartney claret_in_exile

Spijed
Posts: 17112
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 2892 times
Has Liked: 1294 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:28 pm

From the Independent:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 00206.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Does sound like that if the Supreme Court upholds the decision then Boris Johnson has had it and will be expected to resign, having lied to Parliament and the Queen.

ClaretAL
Posts: 2565
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:39 pm
Been Liked: 1044 times
Has Liked: 815 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by ClaretAL » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:29 pm

Who are parliament accountable to? obviously not the public as at every step they do what they want, as seen from the astonishing scenes in parliament. And talks of Boris using tactics for Brexit, well what the hell has the last 6 months been about where at every turn, the party's that all want remain against the will of the people (which make me laugh when they talk about how undemocratic it is to close parliament)have all been putting blockers in the way at every turn and blatantly told us all that is exactly why they are doing it, but then passed by law. The country is on its arse and I seriously hope all the MP's know what they are doing before we start seeing civil unrest.
This user liked this post: RingoMcCartney

ŽižkovClaret
Posts: 6962
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:50 pm
Been Liked: 2145 times
Has Liked: 3063 times
Location: Praha
Contact:

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by ŽižkovClaret » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:53 pm

ClaretAL wrote:Who are parliament accountable to? obviously not the public as at every step they do what they want, as seen from the astonishing scenes in parliament. And talks of Boris using tactics for Brexit, well what the hell has the last 6 months been about where at every turn, the party's that all want remain against the will of the people (which make me laugh when they talk about how undemocratic it is to close parliament)have all been putting blockers in the way at every turn and blatantly told us all that is exactly why they are doing it, but then passed by law. The country is on its arse and I seriously hope all the MP's know what they are doing before we start seeing civil unrest.
They are accountable to their constituents. If you don't like their performance you can elect someone else at the next election. It's been this way for quite a while, and i don't know why people are acting like it hasnt been
These 2 users liked this post: claret_in_exile tiger76

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:06 pm

martin_p wrote:So you lied when you said you voted Labour

I’m not angry about anything, just amused by your wriggling over your obvious hypocrisy. Maybe you should drop your Wrongo character and just be ‘Paul from Burnley’ as you came over a lot more considered, less manic and altogether more agreeable on the radio. You even managed to change your view on something which would never happen on here.
No lies Marty. I have been and could be a labour voter again. I was, in my youth and early 20s, a card carrying labour party member. I've leafleted for the labour party. So stop spouting even more garbage than you usually do! And believe me, it takes some doing, but youre managing to actually pull it off!!

:lol: :lol:


And something that would never happen on here is you admitting you were wrong!


Last year I correctly predicted that john Bercows role would be pivotal.

You claimed-

[quote="martin_p"]You do know it's not Bercow that will define what the vote is don't you? He's just the facilitator Wrongo.[/quote]

Like take the opportunity to admit you got it massively wrong Marty?

Live on up the clarets radio Marty!!

In front of tens of people!!!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:09 pm

Right_winger wrote:Yeah ok if you believe that then you must also believe in the tooth fairy.

Labour are now ( publicly ) voicing their view that they want a referendum and will campaign for remain against any such deal which may or may not be agreed. This has clearly always been the case, Corbyn has been trying to hoodwink the public but other members have let the cat out the bag.

The tories are no better just in case anyone accuses me of being biased.

By labour going full remain they are alienating their leave seats. I’d expect Labour to destroy the Lib Dem’s ( who are a wishy washy party anyway ) by backing remain but let the Brexit party in their leave seats.

I’d personally love to see the 2 main party’s destroyed at the polls as it’s what they deserve.
Labour is split on the issue, and Corbyn has been attempting to straddle the divide, as set out by Labour's conference. For all of the Tom Watsons who say Labour should campaign for remain, you've got the Len McClusky's who say Labour should respect the referendum result (albeit with a different deal to May's). The good side to straddling is it leaves you in a better position to bring people together afterward. The bad side is it takes more thinking to understand it (than a simple black or white position), and it's easier for opponents to misrepresent the position. Hence many ardent leavers believe Corbyn is really supports remain, while the most ardent remainers believe he's a leaver through and through.

I'm a Green, by the way.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:19 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:No lies Marty. I have been and could be a labour voter again. I was, in my youth and early 20s, a card carrying labour party member. I've leafleted for the labour party. So stop spouting even more garbage than you usually do! And believe me, it takes some doing, but youre managing to actually pull it off!!

:lol: :lol:


And something that would never happen on here is you admitting you were wrong!


Last year I correctly predicted that john Bercows role would be pivotal.

You claimed-



Like take the opportunity to admit you got it massively wrong Marty?

Live on up the clarets radio Marty!!

In front of tens of people!!!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol:
So you voted to reject no deal and leave the EU with a customs union then. Makes all your crying about MPs voting to reject no deal look very strange.

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:19 pm

ClaretAL wrote:Who are parliament accountable to? obviously not the public as at every step they do what they want, as seen from the astonishing scenes in parliament. And talks of Boris using tactics for Brexit, well what the hell has the last 6 months been about where at every turn, the party's that all want remain against the will of the people (which make me laugh when they talk about how undemocratic it is to close parliament)have all been putting blockers in the way at every turn and blatantly told us all that is exactly why they are doing it, but then passed by law. The country is on its arse and I seriously hope all the MP's know what they are doing before we start seeing civil unrest.
When May took charge she did what she could to sideline parliament on the issue of Brexit. When, after years of negotiation, she brought her deal before parliament, she couldn't get a majority - despite having a working majority with the DUP - to get it through. She had plenty of room to move around (she could have worked with opposition parties to craft something that would have garnered majority support, for example not leaving the customs union), but she insisted it was her deal or no deal.

Nowhere in what I've described, has parliament "put the blockers on" apart from rejecting May's deal (three times unamended). When Johnson came in he knew the math was no different, but his tactics were just a more extreme version of May's. Ram it through. In doing this he rolled the dice, and lost his majority. None of this is parliament's fault, but the fault of two idiot PMs.
These 4 users liked this post: tiger76 CleggHall Claret-On-A-T-Rex longsidepies

BleedingClaret
Posts: 3302
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:06 am
Been Liked: 985 times
Has Liked: 1656 times
Location: Burnley Boy exiled in Nelson

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by BleedingClaret » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:20 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:"This government cannot even abuse the constitution competently."
@davidallengreen on @lbc

He's still on now, and he's telling why the Scots courts rejected prolongation.

Well worth a listen.
Enjoying yourself pal aren’t you
And I know there’s a fair chance that you’re going to rejoice on the revoking of article 50 and the defeat of Brexit
BUT No deal is also becoming more likely even if it’s the underdog.
Plus the quiet peaceful 17.39 million of the 17.4 may rise up
Now I’m getting excited

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:22 pm

ZizkovClaret wrote:They are accountable to their constituents. If you don't like their performance you can elect someone else at the next election. It's been this way for quite a while, and i don't know why people are acting like it hasnt been
It’s a bit of a mystery given lots claim to have voted leave to ‘get our sovereignty back’. You’d have thought a simple understanding of what sovereignty is in the U.K. would have been a prerequisite for voting this way.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:23 pm

BleedingClaret wrote:Enjoying yourself pal aren’t you
And I know there’s a fair chance that you’re going to rejoice on the revoking of article 50 and the defeat of Brexit
BUT No deal is also becoming more likely even if it’s the underdog.
Plus the quiet peaceful 17.39 million of the 17.4 may rise up
Now I’m getting excited
Get a tissue quick!

BleedingClaret
Posts: 3302
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:06 am
Been Liked: 985 times
Has Liked: 1656 times
Location: Burnley Boy exiled in Nelson

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by BleedingClaret » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:24 pm

Scottish Court in shock pretend they’re rejecting a case against the legality of prorogation then on appeal they uphold it.
Well I’m shocked not as if I predicted that the other day...
Last edited by BleedingClaret on Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BleedingClaret
Posts: 3302
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:06 am
Been Liked: 985 times
Has Liked: 1656 times
Location: Burnley Boy exiled in Nelson

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by BleedingClaret » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:26 pm

martin_p wrote:Get a tissue quick!
I wanna let it fly all champagney like

Spijed
Posts: 17112
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 2892 times
Has Liked: 1294 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:30 pm

BleedingClaret wrote:Plus the quiet peaceful 17.39 million of the 17.4 may rise up
Have you got your pitchfork and lantern at the ready?

Can you imagine the blue rinse brigade kicking off?

;)

ŽižkovClaret
Posts: 6962
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:50 pm
Been Liked: 2145 times
Has Liked: 3063 times
Location: Praha
Contact:

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by ŽižkovClaret » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:34 pm

BleedingClaret wrote:Enjoying yourself pal aren’t you
And I know there’s a fair chance that you’re going to rejoice on the revoking of article 50 and the defeat of Brexit
BUT No deal is also becoming more likely even if it’s the underdog.
Plus the quiet peaceful 17.39 million of the 17.4 may rise up
Now I’m getting excited
lol rise up and do what exactly?
This user liked this post: Claret-On-A-T-Rex

CrosspoolClarets
Posts: 5231
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:00 pm
Been Liked: 1623 times
Has Liked: 397 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:36 pm

My views on sovereignty:

No problem at all with a court finding a decision unlawful as long as the implications of this ruling are deferred until the Supreme Court makes a final judgement (especially seeing as the London High Court said today that prorogation was entirely legitimate for political opportunism, in that it has been used this way before),

I have a problem with the speaker breaking convention in his use of Standing Orders, but generally I accept the concept of Private Member’s Bills, i.e. the law being changed without being proposed by the government.

However, these are one off events normally on a single issue of interest to the member, not a means to lock a minority government in power with a majority of the opposition gathering together to change law, after law, after law - without being asked by the Queen to form a government. So I suggest that while technically that does not breach the concept of parliamentary sovereignty, it wouldn’t have been possible without the Fixed Term Parliament Act, so that Act is a complete aberration which the Lib Dem’s need to take all the blame for (Clegg had it as one of his prices for the coalition).

So the opposition and Speaker are abusing a very bad piece of legislation, without which we would now be at the ballot box trying to sort this out.

android
Posts: 670
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:01 am
Been Liked: 119 times
Has Liked: 43 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by android » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:36 pm

AndrewJB wrote:My initial answer would be "I don't know". Following a google search with "Crispin Odey Brexit" most of the links merely described his short positions which bet against the British economy. In one link however he responds to a Channel 4 documentary in which he featured, called Brexit Millionaires - which he calls "crap" See the link below for yourself.

https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/crisp ... n-20190320" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks for answering. You probably know it was kind of a rhetorical question, as I knew you would not know the answer. What you posted is misinformation at best though. Not that I am calling you a liar - as is the fashion on here - I'm sure you would have taken an article at face value. It just annoys me that these journalists write about stuff that they don't understand.

Truth is that Odey has short positions against UK companies as you say but he is betting that their share prices go down not that they go bust (fail). His reasoning would be mainly company specific rather than Brexit (latter being just one of a long list of variables). For example, counterintuitively after a company reports record profits the share price can often go down so it is far too simplistic to pin this stuff on Brexit. At the same time, he has many long positions betting that UK companies share prices go up and many short positions against European companies. I guess "Tory donor bets that European companies will fail on a no deal Brexit" isn't such an attractive headline.

I do have sympathy that someone like Odey represents the unacceptable face of capitalism in many ways but that's another story.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:44 pm

BleedingClaret wrote:Enjoying yourself pal aren’t you
And I know there’s a fair chance that you’re going to rejoice on the revoking of article 50 and the defeat of Brexit
BUT No deal is also becoming more likely even if it’s the underdog.
Plus the quiet peaceful 17.39 million of the 17.4 may rise up
Now I’m getting excited
My 5684th attempt to tell Brexiteers on here that I want a deal.

I want a deal. I'd vote for a good deal. I won't vote or accept "No deal"
These 2 users liked this post: Claret-On-A-T-Rex longsidepies

TheFamilyCat
Posts: 10843
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:56 pm
Been Liked: 5521 times
Has Liked: 208 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by TheFamilyCat » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:48 pm

ZizkovClaret wrote:lol rise up and do what exactly?
They’ll need to ride up, most of them have died since the referendum haven’t they?
This user liked this post: Claret-On-A-T-Rex

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:55 pm

The Telegraph's attempt to paint Farage as a saviour didn't quite work out as planned. I suspect whoever was maintaining their twitter has been sent off to read an encyclopedia as the ine has now changed:

Image

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:59 pm

aggi wrote:The Telegraph's attempt to paint Farage as a saviour didn't quite work out as planned. I suspect whoever was maintaining their twitter has been sent off to read an encyclopedia as the ine has now changed:

Image
Apparently this tweet got close to being on the Sun’s feed as well. Didn’t make it.
This user liked this post: ZizkovClaret

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:01 pm

android wrote:Thanks for answering. You probably know it was kind of a rhetorical question, as I knew you would not know the answer. What you posted is misinformation at best though. Not that I am calling you a liar - as is the fashion on here - I'm sure you would have taken an article at face value. It just annoys me that these journalists write about stuff that they don't understand.

Truth is that Odey has short positions against UK companies as you say but he is betting that their share prices go down not that they go bust (fail). His reasoning would be mainly company specific rather than Brexit (latter being just one of a long list of variables). For example, counterintuitively after a company reports record profits the share price can often go down so it is far too simplistic to pin this stuff on Brexit. At the same time, he has many long positions betting that UK companies share prices go up and many short positions against European companies. I guess "Tory donor bets that European companies will fail on a no deal Brexit" isn't such an attractive headline.

I do have sympathy that someone like Odey represents the unacceptable face of capitalism in many ways but that's another story.
He said in the linked article that he'd also invested in British companies, but there was no figure given for context against the clear £460 Million figure given by Channel 4. Far from being the unacceptable face of capitalism, I doubt Adam Smith would even consider what he does as capitalism.

bfcmik
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:03 pm
Been Liked: 891 times
Has Liked: 1100 times
Location: Solihull Geriatric Centre

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by bfcmik » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:16 pm

dsr wrote:Parliament is not sovereign. Parliament is responsible to the people. Parliamentary sovereignty means that parliament is sovereign over all other government bodies (including the monarch and the courts), but it does not mean that it is sovereign over the people.
"... a referendum on any topic can only be advisory for the lawmakers in Parliament unless very clear language to the contrary is in the referendum legislation in question. No such language is used in the 2015 Referendum Act. Further, the 2015 Referendum Act was passed against a background including a clear briefing paper to parliamentarians explaining that the referendum would have advisory effect only." UK Supreme Court judgement in Miller & Santos v Secretary of State, 2016 (para. 105–6).

LoveCurryPies
Posts: 4287
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:00 am
Been Liked: 1599 times
Has Liked: 679 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by LoveCurryPies » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:19 pm

The racists won by lying about the NHS receiving extra £350 million pounds a week. They used our beloved NHS. It’s been lies, lies and more lies even to this day.
These 2 users liked this post: Taffy on the wing Claret-On-A-T-Rex

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:20 pm

AndrewJB wrote:He said in the linked article that he'd also invested in British companies, but there was no figure given for context against the clear £460 Million figure given by Channel 4. Far from being the unacceptable face of capitalism, I doubt Adam Smith would even consider what he does as capitalism.
To be honest I agree with Android here. A lot of the stories of this nature aren't that useful as a journalist (often without a finance background) has got a small part of the picture and is using it for the full story.

The article refers to Metro Bank for instance. It's likely he's shorting them because of their well documented issues with loan classifications and the capital requirements rather than the possibility of Brexit.

Brexit will of course be a factor and if he has an inside track even more so (although obviously that is very controversial) but it isn't going to change his strategy compared to someone else.

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:21 pm

martin_p wrote:So you voted to reject no deal and leave the EU with a customs union then. Makes all your crying about MPs voting to reject no deal look very strange.

:lol: :lol: :lol:


My prediction - Bercows role would be pivotal.

Your response-

[quote="martin_p"]You do know it's not Bercow that will define what the vote is don't you? He's just the facilitator Wrongo.[/quote]


Were you wrong .


Yes


Or



No?
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:25 pm

A guy on LBC front the south Wales valleys in Merthyr, moments ago.

"The Labout is no longer my party.

It's the Islington dinner party!"


Sounds like south Wales was listening to old Ringo on the 5 live phone-in this morning!!

He's stealing my lines!

See folks, less time on here schooling remoaners. More time addressing the nation with my infinite wisdom!

:lol: :lol:

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:41 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote::lol: :lol: :lol:


My prediction - Bercows role would be pivotal.

Your response-




Were you wrong .


Yes


Or



No?
See you won’t answer a simple question and attempt to deflect by going back to a question I’ve answered plenty of times. Wriggle, wriggle.

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12345
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5202 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:02 pm

Jesus Christ Ringo your 5 Live appearance was grim. If i'd have been on the road i'd have switched to Talk Sport after 2 mins of your droning opening gambit.

Its good to see that behind your spoof characters on here you have some more reasoned views but please dont ever call up your mate James O'Brien cos he'd wipe the floor with you and make you like all the other blithering idiot brexiteers who take him on.

Lets hope Labour get into govt and manage to deliver their 2017 manifesto pledge to negotiate a CU type Brexit deal that we both voted for and finally enact the will of the people and uphold democracy
This user liked this post: Rick_Muller

BleedingClaret
Posts: 3302
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:06 am
Been Liked: 985 times
Has Liked: 1656 times
Location: Burnley Boy exiled in Nelson

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by BleedingClaret » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:12 pm

Spijed wrote:Have you got your pitchfork and lantern at the ready?

Can you imagine the blue rinse brigade kicking off?

;)
I’m proper miffed
So much so that my grumbling is becoming audible

Bordeauxclaret
Posts: 10273
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:36 pm
Been Liked: 3327 times
Has Liked: 1942 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:18 pm

My dream of taking Ringo National gets a little closer.

So proud.

Taffy on the wing
Posts: 4600
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:41 am
Been Liked: 1020 times
Has Liked: 3163 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Taffy on the wing » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:47 pm

AndrewJB wrote:Leave won, and they've failed to take us out of the EU in the last three years (three years!). Bear in mind the party in power was committed to leaving, and had a working majority. And they failed. The blame for all of this lies at the feet of the government, and nowhere else.
INDEED!

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:18 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Jesus Christ Ringo your 5 Live appearance was grim. If i'd have been on the road i'd have switched to Talk Sport after 2 mins of your droning opening gambit.

Its good to see that behind your spoof characters on here you have some more reasoned views but please dont ever call up your mate James O'Brien cos he'd wipe the floor with you and make you like all the other blithering idiot brexiteers who take him on.

Lets hope Labour get into govt and manage to deliver their 2017 manifesto pledge to negotiate a CU type Brexit deal that we both voted for and finally enact the will of the people and uphold democracy
"Spoof characters"? Dont be so gullible.


James Obrian to wipe the floor with me!?

Dont make me laugh!

I've been on Mike Graham on talk radio, Sheilagh Fogarty only last week where I spoke to Mr Rudd the chair of the Peoples Vote, Rees mogg, Tom Swarbrick in the evening twice, nigel Farage , and Iain Dale twice. The first time on Iain Dale's show lead to me, all be it briefly being the headline story on the daily express website.

The one and only radio show that will not let me on is james Obrian. You ring up and if his production team dont approve of what you want to say, they say thanks, if we can fit you on we'll call you back. They never do. I've stopped listening to Obrian but when I did, callers would get cut short by him, if they dared to ask a question or say something that his production team had not help to prepare him for. I lost count of the number of times he dumped callers saying, "dont come on here saying something different to what you told my producer"

Obrian is NOT as spontaneous as he appears. He's certainly not as intellectually superior as he obviously thinks, while he remains on his pre- vetted script.

Wile E Coyote
Posts: 8507
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:22 pm
Been Liked: 2887 times
Has Liked: 1760 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Wile E Coyote » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:25 pm

It would have been better if they just told us all in June 2016 that in 2019 we were going to have a referendum on whether or not we stay or leave europe.
That way, they could have aired all the billions of facts and debated it all till the cows came home, and all the mess and lies from a bus with slogans on it, to the unlawful parliamentary suspension risk, could have helped the oh so gullible public at least stand a reasonable chance of not buggering things up quite so badly.

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:29 pm

martin_p wrote:See you won’t answer a simple question and attempt to deflect by going back to a question I’ve answered plenty of times. Wriggle, wriggle.

As I've explained earlier , but I must be using the wrong words for you again, I say what have to say to the production team.

As long as I got my 2 main points over -

1 leave would have to have won two referenda, where Remain would only have to have won one. Therefore reducing a leave vote to be worth half that of a Remain vote.

2 the labour party no longer being the working class party and now it's the Islington dinner party.

And a general point for any labour top brass responsible for deciding on whether to pursue the 2nd referendum route listening. Be put off by somebody from their heartlands saying theyd lose votes if they did.

My prediction - Bercows role would be pivotal.

Your response-

[quote="martin_p"]You do know it's not Bercow that will define what the vote is don't you? He's just the facilitator Wrongo.[/quote]


Were you wrong .


Yes


Or



No?


If , as you're claiming, you've answered it "plenty of times". Surely it cant do any harm to just run it by me again now can it!?

Itd certainly give your credibility a wee boost Marty.

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12345
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5202 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:32 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:"Spoof characters"? Dont be so gullible.


James Obrian to wipe the floor with me!?

Dont make me laugh!

I've been on Mike Graham on talk radio, Sheilagh Fogarty only last week where I spoke to Mr Rudd the chair of the Peoples Vote, Rees mogg, Tom Swarbrick in the evening twice, nigel Farage , and Iain Dale twice. The first time on Iain Dale's show lead to me, all be it briefly being the headline story on the daily express website.

The one and only radio show that will not let me on is james Obrian. You ring up and if his production team dont approve of what you want to say, they say thanks, if we can fit you on we'll call you back. They never do. I've stopped listening to Obrian but when I did, callers would get cut short by him, if they dared to ask a question or say something that his production team had not help to prepare him for. I lost count of the number of times he dumped callers saying, "dont come on here saying something different to what you told my producer"

Obrian is NOT as spontaneous as he appears. He's certainly not as intellectually superior as he obviously thinks, while he remains on his pre- vetted script.
And judging by your radio appearance today youre not quite the radio star you think you are cos you came across bloody awfully

Not surprised you get on all these shows though cos they like to fill them up with pompous blowhards who love the sound of their own voice.

Least youve got a nice little hobby you enjoy even if it is a bit silly

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:39 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:And judging my your radio appearance today youre not quite the radio star you think you are cos you came across bloody awfully

Not surprised you get on all these shows though cos they like to fill them up with pompous blowhards who love the sound of their own voice.

Least youve got a nice little hobby you enjoy even if it is a bit silly
No delusions of radio stardom here . Just somebody with an opinion. I thought the guy from Scarborough , who came in all guns blazing was more of the pompous blowhard type FWIW.

My "little hobby" is schooling hapless remoaners on here.

This is more of my "day job"


https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/89505 ... e-campaign" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Locked