Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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android
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by android » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:26 am

In answer to Lancs last question - I hope not! I give Ringo much more credit than that!

And Martin/Lancs I think Paul from Burnley should be allowed a bit of artistic licence in making his points like a true politician! Can't remember exactly what was said - have a listen.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:30 am

So he's lied to about who he votes for to get on to a national radio show to try to convince a party he doesn't support that its Brexit position (which he doesn't understand*) is wrong?

Classic Ringo

*to be fair to him on this one, no one does!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:33 am

android wrote:In answer to Lancs last question - I hope not! I give Ringo much more credit than that!

And Martin/Lancs I think Paul from Burnley should be allowed a bit of artistic licence in making his points like a true politician! Can't remember exactly what was said - have a listen.
Oh, I've no problem with him being on the radio, I heard him a few months ago on Sheiagh Fogarty program and he came across quite well.

My issue is him pretending to be a Labour supporter when he clearly isn't.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:35 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Oh, I've no problem with him being on the radio, I heard him a few months ago on Sheiagh Fogarty program and he came across quite well.

My issue is him pretending to be a Labour supporter when he clearly isn't.
Trying to influence people by repeatedly lying is all part of the Brexit playbook.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:39 am

To be honest Ringo's points were a bit of a free hit for the Labour guy. Although he had to be humble when addressing concerns of 'Labour voter' it allowed him to easily push home the points about Yellow Hammer, how its the working classes impacted, how elites like Johnson will have a lifeboat and highlight how the Tories have done absolutely nothing for the working class labour heartlands and will continue to ignore them.

Bet he wishes he could have questions like that thrown at him all day long

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:48 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:how elites like Johnson will have a lifeboat and highlight how the Tories have done absolutely nothing for the working class labour heartlands and will continue to ignore them.
Once Brexit has been sorted I can't see how the Tories will win seats in Labour heartlands when normal, everyday issues return.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:51 am

Spijed wrote:Once Brexit has been sorted I can't see how the Tories will win seats in Labour heartlands when normal, everyday issues return.
The Tories won’t care about the Labour heartlands once their actions have caused Scotland to leave the union pretty much guaranteeing them a permanent majority in the rest of the U.K.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:12 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Bordeauxclaret will be thrilled.

Ringo is truly going national.

Ps does anyone really believe that Ringo has voted Labour even fairly recently?
Like a proud father seeing his little boy growing up.



Cat’s in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man in the moon
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:41 am

evensteadiereddie wrote:A worrying obsession ? Don't flatter yourself.

Far from it - I'm merely pointing out again your idiocy in attempting to run, at least, two accounts and doing it in a very silly, amateurish way.
You'd have been far better off having Elizabeth as a Remainer but becoming increasingly critical of the way the Remainers are conducting themselves, having her chipping away, just throwing in the odd valid-ish point every now and then.

I did it a few years ago on a Bolton Wanderers boardOne account being the hostile, gleeful Burnley fan, the other a long-suffering Trotters fan with patience sadly running out.The Burnley fan was scornful as Bolton slid down the table, the Bolton fan found himself in the awful position of having to criticise the management, some of the players and the lack of support. Not too much - and it worked a treat. Even some of the Billy Bull shitters such as yourself began to agree with some of the fabricated points.

All you've done, however, is create a watered down version of yourself with slightly less bullshit and conceit.

Stylometry is not a difficult science; word choice, sentence structure, repetition, punctuation, sentence length, syntax, figurative speech, humour - or lack of it, tone and so on are all quite noticeable habits in anybody's writing. We all do it, it's just that your subtle little game isn't just, well, subtle enough.

As I said, I feel sorry for you - you appear to have some serious psychological weakness. You're harmless enough.
So let me get this straight.


You actually took the time to register on a Bolton Wanderers football message board. Not ONCE but TWICE. To create 2 seperate accounts.

Youre actually admitting it!

You admit that it's not difficult to parody somebody. You dont explain why anybody rational would want to! And you dont explain why I would want to. Despite that you believe that "we all do it!"

I don't know what anybody would get out of setting up a parody account on a message board. Genuinely. But its crystal clear from your confession, YOU DO!!


And then you claim I gave some "serious psychological weakness"


Hoist by your own petard springs to mind Edward.

I'll let others decide.....
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:50 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:So let me get this straight.


You actually took the time to register on a Bolton Wanderers football message board. Not ONCE but TWICE. To create 2 seperate accounts.

Youre actually admitting it!

You admit that it's not difficult to parody somebody. You dont explain why anybody rational would want to! And you dont explain why I would want to. Despite that you believe that "we all do it!"

I don't know what anybody would get out of setting up a parody account on a message board. Genuinely. But its crystal clear from your confession, YOU DO!!


And then you claim I gave some "serious psychological weakness"


Hoist by your own petard springs to mind Edward.

I'll let others decide.....
You’re certainly attention seeking.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:54 am

aggi wrote:

aggi wrote:Have food and fuel prices risen while we've been members of the Common Market / EU?

Yes or no?

In real terms - no. Average earnings have outstripped RPI over that period.

2 Have Low income groups been disproportionately affected by those price rises in food and fuel.?

Yes or No?

Given we've established that prices haven't risen in real terms (perhaps for AVERAGE earners) this question doesn't seem to apply.



3 Did millions of voters in low income groups vote Leave?

Yes or No?

You answer basing it on Average earnings. Nice swerve. So I'll ask you again but I'll be more specific, to make sure it "DOES SEEM TO APPLY!"

People on average earnings may not have been as adversely affected by the rise in prices. However, you concede that prices have risen.

Have those price rises had a disproportionate negative effect on the very lowest income groups? The groups that we hear about from labour politicians, whose wages , REAL terms have stagnated at best, even declined for, perhaps decades, while we've been in the EU/ Common Market?

Yes or No?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:55 am

martin_p wrote:You’re certainly attention seeking.

Nobody put a gun to your head and made you give me any!

:lol: :lol:

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:00 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:Nobody put a gun to your head and made you give me any!

:lol: :lol:
Not talking about on here, I post as much as anyone else on this thread certainly. I’m talking about you hawking yourself around radio stations for your ten a penny Brexit views and your creation of multiple accounts.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:02 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:You answer basing it on Average earnings. Nice swerve. So I'll ask you again but I'll be more specific, to make sure it "DOES SEEM TO APPLY!"

People on average earnings may not have been as adversely affected by the rise in prices. However, you concede that prices have risen.

Have those price rises had a disproportionate negative effect on the very lowest income groups? The groups that we hear about from labour politicians, whose wages , REAL terms have stagnated at best, even declined for, perhaps decades, while we've been in the EU/ Common Market?

Yes or No?
This is why no one bothers answering your overly simplistic yes/no questions usually, you don’t listen to the answer. Food prices have not risen in real terms since we joined the EU, they’ve gone down.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by evensteadiereddie » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:03 am

You really are a nut job, aren't you ?

i Was happy to spend time on the Bolton board engaged in guerilla verbal warfare with a large group of Trotters fans who were convinced they were far superior to the Clarets in every respect even though, especially after the Coyle debacle, the club was clearly on the side.
The second account - it was a fake account not a parody - was designed purely to be the vehicle of sly, subversive digs from a ahem, disillusioned Bolton fan. It is fascinating to see how you can fool people if you play the ruse correctly.

As I explained, your stupidity lies in your lack of wit, guile and humour. Your completing missing of my point merely amplifies how correct I was - no amount of shouty capitals, bold type and emojis will change that.

Your Elizabeth account is not a parody, it's a fake and, as I said, a pretty badly-executed one.

Why would you create some lousy second account on a football forum's Brexit thread, God only knows. The same reason you tout yourself round the radio phone-ins, I guess.

My reference to "We all do it" was obviously concering the certain habits we all use when writing at length. I would have thought that was obvious - do read it again - but there you go.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:07 am

martin_p wrote:Not talking about on here, I post as much as anyone else on this thread certainly. I’m talking about you hawking yourself around radio stations for your ten a penny Brexit views and your creation of multiple accounts.
Multiple accounts!?

:lol:

You're second on the list of suspects, after the self confessed "Good Cop/Bad Cop" serial, multiple personality disorder suffering, "We all do it!!!!!!!" Truly Unhinged Edward!!


As for me voicing my opinion on the radio Marty, I means I get my "10 a penny views" over to millions. You just get to display your pent up anger that I'm doing it to a handful Burnley fans!!

That what irks you!

:lol: :lol:


The liberal left -

We LOVE diversity.

We HATE diversity of opinion....

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:09 am

RingoMcCartney wrote: As for me voicing my opinion on the radio Marty, I means I get my "10 a penny views" over to millions. You just get to display your pent up anger that I'm doing it to a handful Burnley fans!!
That’s what I said, you’re attention seeking! I don’t feel any need to get my views across to a larger audience, I don’t even really care whether they’re read or not on here. It’s just a diversion for me.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:10 am

evensteadiereddie wrote:You really are a nut job, aren't you ?

i Was happy to spend time on the Bolton board engaged in guerilla verbal warfarewith a large group of Trotters fans who were convinced they were far superior to the Clarets in every respect even though, especially after the Coyle debacle, the club was clearly on the side.
The second account - it was a fake account not a parody - was designed purely to be the vehicle of sly, subversive digs from a ahem, disillusioned Bolton fan. It is fascinating to see how you can fool people if you play the ruse correctly.

As I explained, your stupidity lies in your lack of wit, guile and humour. Your completing missing of my point merely amplifies how correct I was - no amount of shouty capitals, bold type and emojis will change that.

Your Elizabeth account is not a parody, it's a fake and, as I said, a pretty badly-executed one.

Why would you create some lousy second account on a football forum's Brexit thread, God only knows. The same reason you tout yourself round the radio phone-ins, I guess.

My reference to "We all do it" was obviously concering the certain habits we all use when writing at length. I would have thought that was obvious - do read it again - but there you go.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


" i Was happy to spend time on the Bolton board engaged in guerilla verbal warfare"


Jesus!!!!!!!

"Guerilla verbal warfare!!!!!!!!"



Please Edward ! Stop it!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:13 am

Burnley Ace wrote:There is an interesting spin being put on this by leavers. The High Court did not rule that it was lawful or unlawful they said it wasn’t a question for the Court (not justiciable). The interpretation of constitutional law in Scotland is different, that is why all these cases challenging the gov start there. Nothing to do with the Judges.
I was actually taking the side of remainers there, or at least opposing the government. My point was that the government should never, ever publicly question the impartiality of the judiciary. Say you consider their judgment mistaken, or appeal, or whatever, but not that the judgment was biased.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:14 am

martin_p wrote:That’s what I said, you’re attention seeking! I don’t feel any need to get my views across to a larger audience, I don’t even really care whether they’re read or not on here. It’s just a diversion for me.

Grrrrr

At least you're understandably angry as I get the better of you on a regular basis. Wheres as Edward well, hes gone!!!!

:lol: :lol:

He's a guerrilla!!!!!!


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:19 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:Grrrrr

At least you're understandably angry as I get the better of you on a regular basis. Wheres as Edward well, hes gone!!!!

:lol: :lol:

He's a guerrilla!!!!!!


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Maybe you need to look up the definition of ‘attention seeking’ then have a moment of quiet reflection on why seeking to draw more attention to your views by going in the radio might just fit that definition.

Or of course you could claim not to be attention seeking by replying to my post with bits of the text bolded and increased in font size with plenty of LOLs and exclamation marks to make sure it stands out from the rest.
Last edited by martin_p on Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:28 am

martin_p wrote:Maybe you need to look up the definition of ‘attention seeking’ then have a moment of quiet reflection on why seeking to draw more attention to your views by going in the radio might just fit that definition.

Correct me if I'm wrong, ( and im certain youd tell me if I was, ) but the only poster that's giving me the attention that you claim I seek, is you!


:lol:


Reflect on that!


;)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:30 am

If it be your will wrote:I was actually taking the side of remainers there, or at least opposing the government. My point was that the government should never, ever publicly question the impartiality of the judiciary. Say you consider their judgment mistaken, or appeal, or whatever, but not that the judgment was biased.
Unfortunately the Speaker of the House of Commons has cast enormous doubt on the principle that those officials who ought to be neutral, actually are.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:07 pm

dsr wrote:Unfortunately the Speaker of the House of Commons has cast enormous doubt on the principle that those officials who ought to be neutral, actually are.
I think it's fine for you or I to make these accusations (and they might well be true - seems that way sometimes), but I absolutely don't think members of the cabinet should be saying them https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49670901" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . I just sense in the last 4-5 days everything has taken a really dodgy turn. My own speculation is that the atmosphere in Westminster has been so frenzied and poisonous for so long that everyone involved is completely at their wits end. Very 'un-British', almost. The last 4-5 days have exposed just how bad the situation must be. Do you not sense this, too? That something is going very badly wrong at the core?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:11 pm

dsr wrote:Unfortunately the Speaker of the House of Commons has cast enormous doubt on the principle that those officials who ought to be neutral, actually are.
Its almost like you haven't a clue what the speakers job actually is.

BIG HINT - it is not to rubber stamp government decisions when there isn't a house majority for it

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:12 pm

If it be your will wrote:I think it's fine for you or I to make these accusations (and they might well be true - seems that way sometimes), but I absolutely don't think members of the cabinet should be saying them https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49670901" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . I just sense in the last 4-5 days everything has taken a really dodgy turn. My own speculation is that the atmosphere in Westminster has been so frenzied and poisonous for so long that everyone involved is completely at their wits end. Very 'un-British', almost. The last 4-5 days have exposed just how bad the situation must be. Do you not sense this, too? That something is going very badly wrong at the core?
This in a nutshell

Asking Dsr to admit that the drive for a "No Deal" Brexit by a powerful MINORITY of the electorate is like asking for the German car industry to put pressure on the EU to give us a great deal though.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Pstotto » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:22 pm

After WW2 it was calculated that Germany owed £320 billion in reparations but since then they have only paid £40 billion because they had no money and were let off.

We built Germany again after WW2 and bigged up their industries and country at the expense of our own, with bomb sites in Manchester still in the 70s.

Perhaps it had something to do with the Sax Coburg (Windsor) royal family.

A no-deal Brexit gives us the chance to take them to court and demand our money, because we should not be in debt to USA for a war that was not our fault.

How about Mercedes, BMW and Porsche and VW and Audi to become UK companies for starters, regarding getting our dosh back.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:28 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Its almost like you haven't a clue what the speakers job actually is.

BIG HINT - it is not to rubber stamp government decisions when there isn't a house majority for it
Another big hint. If, at the end of a football match, one side lined up to shake the referee's hand and cheer him off while the other side turned their back, that would be a fair sign that he hadn't been successful at being even-handed.

Bercow saw his role as a preventer of Brexit. He is allowed to be partisan on the side of Parliament as a whole, within constitutional bounds, but he isn't supposed to favour one side of the house over the other.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:52 pm

Spijed wrote:Once Brexit has been sorted I can't see how the Tories will win seats in Labour heartlands when normal, everyday issues return.
I agree, but I can see how Farage can win seats in both Labour and Tory heartlands.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:52 pm

android wrote:But meanwhile Ringo aka "Paul from Burnley" the fame grows...

Nicky Campbell on BBC Radio 5 Live was sufficiently impressed by your contribution yesterday to play back some of what you had said yesterday for the benefit of a Labour MP he was interviewing this morning. Nicky Campbell then went on to quote what you had said about Labour voters potentially holding their noses and voting Conservative.

It was between 8.10 and 8.15 this morning.

Good afternoon Android.

I didn't realise he'd clipped my words , but I've just spoke to a friend of mine who heard it too. Funny isn't it. My opinion is good enough to be broadcast, then re- broadcast , by the BBC!

Yet simultaneously I get some right hysteria riddled nonesense thrown at me, (nowt I cant cope with, mind!) cos of my views. The UTC Remoaners are regularly reduced to making groundless accusations of my well-being. Resorting to repeatedly, attempting the same baseless, vacuous, character assassinations , to try and discredit me, when they've lost the arguement. Again! :lol: They genuinely must think it's like a red rag to a bull. I just see it as them waving the white flag! :lol:

I'll let Mr Cantona describe how it looks to me-

`When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea'

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:53 pm

dsr wrote:Another big hint. If, at the end of a football match, one side lined up to shake the referee's hand and cheer him off while the other side turned their back, that would be a fair sign that he hadn't been successful at being even-handed.

Bercow saw his role as a preventer of Brexit. He is allowed to be partisan on the side of Parliament as a whole, within constitutional bounds, but he isn't supposed to favour one side of the house over the other.
The speaker was on the side of parliament. The fact that a majority in parliament wanted to take things a certain way isn’t his fault. The debates can only happen and the motions pass with parliament’s consent, parliament is sovereign. Or is this the wrong sort of democracy?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:54 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:You answer basing it on Average earnings. Nice swerve. So I'll ask you again but I'll be more specific, to make sure it "DOES SEEM TO APPLY!"

People on average earnings may not have been as adversely affected by the rise in prices. However, you concede that prices have risen.

Have those price rises had a disproportionate negative effect on the very lowest income groups? The groups that we hear about from labour politicians, whose wages , REAL terms have stagnated at best, even declined for, perhaps decades, while we've been in the EU/ Common Market?

Yes or No?
I don't concede that prices have risen in real terms. They've fallen.

I'm not sure how you want to evaluate the lowest income groups. We could use the minimum wage as a proxy which has increased by 128% in the past 20 years. RPI on the other hand has only increased by 70%. Therefore, for those earning minimum wage, prices have fallen.

If you want to disagree then provide some evidence (we all know that you won't).

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:55 pm

dsr wrote:Another big hint. If, at the end of a football match, one side lined up to shake the referee's hand and cheer him off while the other side turned their back, that would be a fair sign that he hadn't been successful at being even-handed.
Haven't there been many instances where players have stormed off after a match, refusing to shake the referees hand?

Doesn't mean the referee has been biased. Pochettino did exactly that after our win against Spurs last season. No-one suggested Mike Dean was biased in any way.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:57 pm

martin_p wrote:The speaker was on the side of parliament. The fact that a majority in parliament wanted to take things a certain way isn’t his fault. The debates can only happen and the motions pass with parliament’s consent, parliament is sovereign. Or is this the wrong sort of democracy?
It's widely understood that the Speaker was pro-Brexit and acted accordingly. Not just among commentators, but MPs clearly believed that as well.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:58 pm

dsr wrote:Another big hint. If, at the end of a football match, one side lined up to shake the referee's hand and cheer him off while the other side turned their back, that would be a fair sign that he hadn't been successful at being even-handed.

Bercow saw his role as a preventer of Brexit. He is allowed to be partisan on the side of Parliament as a whole, within constitutional bounds, but he isn't supposed to favour one side of the house over the other.
At some point I'm definitely going to publish The Big Brexit Book of Analogies.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:00 pm

dsr wrote:It's widely understood that the Speaker was pro-Brexit and acted accordingly. Not just among commentators, but MPs clearly believed that as well.
Well that’s news!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:00 pm

Spijed wrote:Haven't there been many instances where players have stormed off after a match, refusing to shake the referees hand?

Doesn't mean the referee has been biased. Pochettino did exactly that after our win against Spurs last season. No-one suggested Mike Dean was biased in any way.
"Even-handed" isn't the same as biased. If the ref makes several wrong decisions, all the same way, (not that Dean did against Sours; Pocchetino was just sulking because two corner decisions went the wrong way and he thought the one against Spurs wasn't fair) then he hasn't been even handed. (Obviously in Bercow's case, he wasn't trying to be even-handed, while Mike Dean was.)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:01 pm

aggi wrote:I don't concede that prices have risen in real terms. They've fallen.

I'm not sure how you want to evaluate the lowest income groups. We could use the minimum wage as a proxy which has increased by 128% in the past 20 years. RPI on the other hand has only increased by 70%. Therefore, for those earning minimum wage, prices have fallen.

If you want to disagree then provide some evidence (we all know that you won't).
He will however claim to have won the argument and ‘schooled you’.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:02 pm

If it be your will wrote:I think it's fine for you or I to make these accusations (and they might well be true - seems that way sometimes), but I absolutely don't think members of the cabinet should be saying them https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49670901" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . I just sense in the last 4-5 days everything has taken a really dodgy turn. My own speculation is that the atmosphere in Westminster has been so frenzied and poisonous for so long that everyone involved is completely at their wits end. Very 'un-British', almost. The last 4-5 days have exposed just how bad the situation must be. Do you not sense this, too? That something is going very badly wrong at the core?
I agree completely with this.

It was totally predictable.

We are seeing a few consequences now:

1. The consequence (trust in judiciary) of so many QCs actively trying to subvert Brexit (like Jolyon Maugham). Judges of course often come from being a QC first and I’m sure they don’t leave their opinions at the door when they sign up.

2. The consequence (trust in politicians) of bias like Bercow has shown (undeniably, anybody who denies it is thick), of sheer thuggery and abuse (Labour, SNP, Lib Dem’s and Greens), of actively going against their own manifesto they stood on (Tory rebels) and (for balance) of Johnson twisting the facts to suit himself.

3. The consequence (trust in each other) of allowing a polarising referendum to continue to rip apart relationships in families and friendship groups by establishment figures spending 3 years trying to subvert it. I’m pleased to see reports from the EU today acknowledging that entertaining some of these shysters like Blair has been a big mistake.

How we come back from here is tricky, but a start would be maintaining the separation between politics and the judiciary, urgently having a proper Brexit (with a deal ideally) and ensuring fit and proper persons become MPs rather than people still acting like they are in a Student’s Union debate.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:04 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:I agree completely with this.

It was totally predictable.

We are seeing a few consequences now:

1. The consequence (trust in judiciary) of so many QCs actively trying to subvert Brexit (like Jolyon Maugham). Judges of course often come from being a QC first and I’m sure they don’t leave their opinions at the door when they sign up.

2. The consequence (trust in politicians) of bias like Bercow has shown (undeniably, anybody who denies it is thick), of sheer thuggery and abuse (Labour, SNP, Lib Dem’s and Greens), of actively going against their own manifesto they stood on (Tory rebels) and (for balance) of Johnson twisting the facts to suit himself.

3. The consequence (trust in each other) of allowing a polarising referendum to continue to rip apart relationships in families and friendship groups by establishment figures spending 3 years trying to subvert it. I’m pleased to see reports from the EU today acknowledging that entertaining some of these shysters like Blair has been a big mistake.

How we come back from here is tricky, but a start would be maintaining the separation between politics and the judiciary, urgently having a proper Brexit (with a deal ideally) and ensuring fit and proper persons become MPs rather than people still acting like they are in a Student’s Union debate.
Can you point out how Labour have gone against their manifesto re Brexit and engaged in sheer thuggery and abuse? Otherwise people might think you’re just making **** up.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:07 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:I agree, but I can see how Farage can win seats in both Labour and Tory heartlands.
If a Brexit deal is sorted upon what platform will Farage stand?

There was an interesting news report in the Nottingham area where die-hard Labour voters who wanted Brexit were willing to vote for either Farage or Boris Johnson and it gave them an excuse to do so. However, the feeling was that it's only Brexit that would turn them away from Labour.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49646249" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm surprised that the conservatives are happy to go for a Post-Brest election where traditional manifesto pledges come into play.
Last edited by Spijed on Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:18 pm

martin_p wrote:Can you point out how Labour have gone against their manifesto re Brexit and engaged in sheer thuggery and abuse? Otherwise people might think you’re just making **** up.
I'm really looking forward to finding out what thuggery and abuse Caroline Lucas has been involved in.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:29 pm

dsr wrote:Another big hint. If, at the end of a football match, one side lined up to shake the referee's hand and cheer him off while the other side turned their back, that would be a fair sign that he hadn't been successful at being even-handed.

Bercow saw his role as a preventer of Brexit. He is allowed to be partisan on the side of Parliament as a whole, within constitutional bounds, but he isn't supposed to favour one side of the house over the other.
I reckon we can add no idea what the role of the speaker is to your list of stuff you will talk about endlessly without actually knowing about it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:30 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:I agree completely with this.

It was totally predictable.

We are seeing a few consequences now:

1. The consequence (trust in judiciary) of so many QCs actively trying to subvert Brexit (like Jolyon Maugham). Judges of course often come from being a QC first and I’m sure they don’t leave their opinions at the door when they sign up.

2. The consequence (trust in politicians) of bias like Bercow has shown (undeniably, anybody who denies it is thick), of sheer thuggery and abuse (Labour, SNP, Lib Dem’s and Greens), of actively going against their own manifesto they stood on (Tory rebels) and (for balance) of Johnson twisting the facts to suit himself.

3. The consequence (trust in each other) of allowing a polarising referendum to continue to rip apart relationships in families and friendship groups by establishment figures spending 3 years trying to subvert it. I’m pleased to see reports from the EU today acknowledging that entertaining some of these shysters like Blair has been a big mistake.

How we come back from here is tricky, but a start would be maintaining the separation between politics and the judiciary, urgently having a proper Brexit (with a deal ideally) and ensuring fit and proper persons become MPs rather than people still acting like they are in a Student’s Union debate.
Completely devalued as anything other than propaganda because of your failure to add "Conservatives" to line 2

And what a shock, to start to sort this we need to have a Brexit first.

I'd start by insisting that the truth comes out first, and that anything that the government is trying to hide about the consequences becomes public knowledge.

Oh, and I'd sack Kwesi Kwartang (spelling?) for repeating a Brexit lie about the independence of the judiciary and trying to pretend he didn't believe it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:42 pm

aggi wrote:I don't concede that prices have risen in real terms. They've fallen.

I'm not sure how you want to evaluate the lowest income groups. We could use the minimum wage as a proxy which has increased by 128% in the past 20 years. RPI on the other hand has only increased by 70%. Therefore, for those earning minimum wage, prices have fallen.

If you want to disagree then provide some evidence (we all know that you won't).

You actually sound like a Tory!!! :lol:

It's as if there hasn't been a massive rise in food banks!!

So when labour politicians describe those, whose wages ,in REAL terms have stagnated at best, even declined for, perhaps decades, are they wrong!?

Yes or No?

You concede that prices have risen?

Yes or No?

Dont try and cloud the waters by introducing RPI and real terms aggi.

Answer the straight forward black and white question.

Does the increasing cost of food or goods have a disproportionate effect on those who can least afford to buy them, ie, on the lowest paid?

Yes


Or

No?



(I'm buckled in and ready for some true, flying in the face of reality, answer avoiding here!)
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:44 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Completely devalued as anything other than propaganda because of your failure to add "Conservatives" to line 2

And what a shock, to start to sort this we need to have a Brexit first.

I'd start by insisting that the truth comes out first, and that anything that the government is trying to hide about the consequences becomes public knowledge.

Oh, and I'd sack Kwesi Kwartang (spelling?) for repeating a Brexit lie about the independence of the judiciary and trying to pretend he didn't believe it.
Remind me again, when did it become illegal to criticize judges?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Tall Paul » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:50 pm

Ringo, are you saying that food and fuel prices have risen in the UK because we are part of the EU?

Yes or no?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by tiger76 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:56 pm

Spijed wrote:If a Brexit deal is sorted upon what platform will Farage stand?

There was an interesting news report in the Nottingham area where die-hard Labour voters who wanted Brexit were willing to vote for either Farage or Boris Johnson and it gave them an excuse to do so. However, the feeling was that it's only Brexit that would turn them away from Labour.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49646249" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm surprised that the conservatives are happy to go for a Post-Brest election where traditional manifesto pledges come into play.
I'm not convinced the Conservatives are happy about a post-brexit election,hence why they were pushing to have one ASAP,there are 2 scenario's either Johnson somehow gets a deal through parliament in the next month or two,or he has to go to Brussels and request an extension.

Both have negatives for the Conservatives if the first happens he can claim to have delivered brexit,but then domestic issues will rule the agenda.

If the second happens he'll have failed in his pledge to deliver brexit by Halloween,and any subsequent election would see him leaking votes to the BP.

There is also the question of timing regarding a GE now,Boris is running a minority government,so in theory Corbyn could call a VONC at any time and likely carry it,then of course they'll be 14 days for an alternative government to be formed before anyone has to go to the country.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:58 pm

Tall Paul wrote:Ringo, are you saying that food and fuel prices have risen in the UK because we are part of the EU?

Yes or no?

I'm saying that they've risen WHILE we've been in the EU.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Tall Paul » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:59 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:I'm saying that they've risen WHILE we've been in the EU.
That's not the question I asked, stop wriggling.

Are you saying that food and fuel prices have risen in the UK because we are part of the EU?

Yes or no?

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