Brexit: The Naked Truth

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# 1
Spijed
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Spijed » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:22 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Now you cannot stay in the single market or a customs union and have controlled immigration.
You must also accept all EU laws.

So your staying in.


You still haven't said what you'll do if there is a GE after we leave.

# 2
evensteadiereddie
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby evensteadiereddie » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:23 pm

"I see Ringo has moved on from 'martin' to Never Ready Eddie.
I never thought I would receive such attention"


Oh, Ringo, you are such a prick.
It was worth waiting for, mind. :lol:

# 3
martin_p
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby martin_p » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:26 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Now you cannot stay in the single market or a customs union and have controlled immigration.
You must also accept all EU laws.

So your staying in.


It doesn’t say stay in, it says retain the benefits of.

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Lowbankclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lowbankclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:26 pm

martin_p wrote:Unfortunately the Tories are in the process of nicking Nigel’s shtick which means he won’t pick up as many votes as you’re expecting.


Well having run several election campaigns, which I am guessing you haven’t, I beg to differ.

However when I start knocking on I might have to change my view, but currently based on people I speak to Burnley is currently looking heavily Brexit.

That could be in my personal bubble of people I know.

Being a lifelong Burnley fan might help him a little. Goes home and away.

# 5
Lowbankclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lowbankclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:31 pm

martin_p wrote:It doesn’t say stay in, it says retain the benefits of.


Really you don’t retain the benefits. You pay massive amounts of money to stay in the club.

Any deal based on that manifesto would make us massively worse off.

We would pay a similar amount in.
Get no rebate.
Get no EU investment .

Not be allowed to make deals with other countries. Like the USA.
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# 6
RingoMcCartney
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby RingoMcCartney » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:31 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:I'll explain yet again, a little more clearly. I ran one account as a legit BFC fan enjoying the er, banter with some of their lads. Occasionally it went too far and one lad, Mallorca Trotter, bless him, had my BFC fan account shut. No problem - new user name, tone it all down a bit and off we went. The other account, never questioned, was a piss-take from start to finish, posting stuff just to see how gullible some of those fools were.
It was, to be fair, pretty interesting to see how you could manipulate others' thinking. Nothing "split personality" about that, chap, far from it - two uses of different persona. That's why I did it.
Hope you understood that.

Again, classic floundering from you - you've been caught by the knackers fair and square over your fake account so, suddenly, you start squealing its my account. Your second account is not a parody account - don't you understand what the term means ? It is your rather childish and embarrassing attempt to garner support. That's why you do it.

How ******* pathetic and needy are you ? Don't get upset over being caught out, you just aren't clever enough to disguise the language "Elizabeth" uses. You do reasonably well to a point and then the odd jibe, the odd piece of repetition or the tone gives you away. Learn from it. I'll be looking for some improvement.

As I said earlier, its not a difficult science to spot the writing habits we all have, they'll show eventually.

And finally, FWIW, I think one Bolton lad did have some suspicions about my allegiance but only admitted that when Bolton went down, my work there was done and I finally owned up. ;)



Do you really think I give a monkeys about why, not only, did you get some weird buzz, by going on another clubs message board, but registering as 2 seperate posters!!!!??? But what you did and who you upset while "the 2 of you" spent hours of fun, taking part in "verbal guerilla warfare :lol: :lol: as you put it!!!!!


You're even offering me tips on how to improve "Elizabeth" :lol: :lol: :lol:

You clearly relish this multiple personality disorder, fetish that you indulge yourself in on various football message boards. But, whichever one you choose to use. You cant hide the fact that you've got anger and self awareness issues.


Even if you're in your favourite "Verbal Guerilla Warfare" camouflage!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Step lightly, soldier. It's a verbal jungle out there!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lowbankclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lowbankclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:34 pm

This shows really well the relationship of each country to the EU.

150BB4D8-FADE-469B-BF1D-92D0620CCE46.png
150BB4D8-FADE-469B-BF1D-92D0620CCE46.png (928.86 KiB) Viewed 405 times

# 8
TheFamilyCat
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby TheFamilyCat » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:52 pm

Spijed wrote:But what happens if Boris repackages May's deal and we DO leave on/before Oct 31?

What happens to the Brexit party then?


Farage will campaign to rejoin so he can get his job back.

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TheFamilyCat
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby TheFamilyCat » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:54 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Well having run several election campaigns, which I am guessing you haven’t, I beg to differ.

However when I start knocking on I might have to change my view, but currently based on people I speak to Burnley is currently looking heavily Brexit.

That could be in my personal bubble of people I know.

Being a lifelong Burnley fan might help him a little. Goes home and away.


As if our political landscape wasn’t ****** up enough without folk voting for candidates based on the football team they support.

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If it be your will
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby If it be your will » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:57 pm

martin_p wrote:Well, as I said, it’d be helpful if you can point out specifics re Brexit, given we’re not on a doorstep and I’m not angry with you.

You have half a point here. Having just read through the Brexit section of the manifesto again, it essentially commits to absolutely nothing does it?? If it was a legal document Labour could've done almost anything and they wouldn't - in the absolute strictest sense - have broken a manifesto commitment. That's because the manifesto made no commitment! They could've ripped up A50, they could have crashed out with no deal, they could've had a 2nd (or even 3rd) referendum, they could've just danced naked flicking V's to France from the white cliffs of Dover. There is absolutely nothing they could've done that would break their manifesto commitments, even had they maliciously set out to do so. In the strictest sense, the only commitment was to give current resident EU nationals right to stay, but that's basically it. The rest is all 'Seek to...' 'Aim for...' 'Respect the...' 'Work with...' 'Recognises that...'

Just shows what utter balls manifestos really are, doesn't it?

This lot lied through their teeth, though (and so, it seems, did I):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27oPCkD7IKs

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Lowbankclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lowbankclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:04 pm

If it be your will wrote:You have half a point here. Having just read through the Brexit section of the manifesto again, it essentially commits to absolutely nothing does it?? If it was a legal document Labour could've done almost anything and they wouldn't - in the absolute strictest sense - have broken a manifesto commitment. That's because the manifesto made no commitment! They could've ripped up A50, they could have crashed out with no deal, they could've had a 2nd (or even 3rd) referendum, they could've just danced naked flicking V's to France from the white cliffs of Dover. There is absolutely nothing they could've done that would break their manifesto commitments, even had they maliciously set out to do so. In the strictest sense, the only commitment was to give current resident EU nationals right to stay, but that's basically it. The rest is all 'Seek to...' 'Aim for...' 'Respect the...' 'Work with...' 'Recognises that...'

Just shows what utter balls manifestos really are, doesn't it?

This lot lied through their teeth, though (and so, it seems, did I):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27oPCkD7IKs



Join us, we will NOT be lying to anyone.

# 12
quoonbeatz
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby quoonbeatz » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:13 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:you cannot stay in the single market or a customs union and have controlled immigration.


Lowbankclaret wrote:Join us, we will NOT be lying to anyone.


:lol: :roll:
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# 13
taio
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby taio » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:15 pm

quoonbeatz wrote::lol: :roll:


To he fair the two posts you've quoted are absolutely correct and are at the heart of the problem.

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Mala591
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Mala591 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:22 pm

The only thing for sure is - if you want

to remain
an open door/free for all immigration policy
to legalise cannabis

then vote Lib Dem

# 15
taio
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby taio » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:24 pm

Mala591 wrote:The only thing for sure is - if you want

to remain
an open door/free for all immigration policy
to legalise cannabis

then vote Lib Dem


The Lib Dems have been consistent from day one which is better than lots of the shite we've had from the Tories and Labour.

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Lowbankclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lowbankclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:31 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:As if our political landscape wasn’t ****** up enough without folk voting for candidates based on the football team they support.


Well to be fair, leave voters could have two choices.

A Tory from eton and it was 1910 apparently when we last elected a Tory.

Or a local lad you can approach as he is one of us, who will fight for Burnley with every breath.

Whilst your not gunna vote on a football flag, many in Burnley have voted on the red flag of Labour.

I just think they might just have burnt some bridges.

# 17
Lowbankclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lowbankclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:33 pm

quoonbeatz wrote::lol: :roll:


So tell me, how many countries in the diagram have been allowed controlled immigration??

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ClaretAndJew
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby ClaretAndJew » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:35 pm

Look lads you're simply forgetting the most important and fundamental part of all of this.

Brexit means Brexit.

I voted to remain but now I have seen the light. Brexit means Brexit.

That's all.

Repeat it and you will see the light just as I did.

# 19
Lowbankclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lowbankclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:35 pm

taio wrote:To he fair the two posts you've quoted are absolutely correct and are at the heart of the problem.



So same question??

How many are allowed controlled immigration??

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ClaretAndJew
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby ClaretAndJew » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:40 pm

Controlling external EU immigration is totally in our control anyway, regardless of our EU membership.

We also didn't take part in the "Schengen Area" policy and instead decided to control our own borders.

# 21
taio
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby taio » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:40 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:So same question??

How many are allowed controlled immigration??


I'm agreeing with you

# 22
Lowbankclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lowbankclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:49 pm

taio wrote:I'm agreeing with you


My apologies sir.

It can get confusing on here

# 23
taio
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby taio » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:50 pm

ClaretAndJew wrote:Controlling external EU immigration is totally in our control anyway, regardless of our EU membership.

We also didn't take part in the "Schengen Area" policy and instead decided to control our own borders.


No it isn't. That's just plain wrong.

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Lowbankclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lowbankclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:53 pm

ClaretAndJew wrote:Controlling external EU immigration is totally in our control anyway, regardless of our EU membership.

We also didn't take part in the "Schengen Area" policy and instead decided to control our own borders.


Your not correct, EU membership means open borders.
They get our benefits, even being allowed to claim child benefit for multiple kids and send it back home to the missus who lives back home.

# 25
Lowbankclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lowbankclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:56 pm

Poland in an attempt to retain skilled workers.
I have spoken to many UK skilled guys and they are really well trained and skilled. Poles that is?

Have now equalled our child benefit to try to keep skilled workers at home.

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If it be your will
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby If it be your will » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:03 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Join us, we will NOT be lying to anyone.

Unless a genuine Brexit is delivered in the meantime, I predict you'll do a lot better than is generally anticipated. Almost everyone I know personally is in the process of washing their hands of Labour, that's for sure.

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Lowbankclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lowbankclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:07 pm

If it be your will wrote:Unless a genuine Brexit is delivered in the meantime, I predict you'll do a lot better than is generally anticipated. Almost everyone I know personally is in the process of washing their hands of Labour, that's for sure.


That’s the message I am getting from all over the place.

When we can offer a local bloke who’s just a normal guy who’s a life long claret, and will fight for Brexit and Burnley every step of the way.

I think we can get people behind him.

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martin_p
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby martin_p » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:10 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Your not correct, EU membership means open borders.
They get our benefits, even being allowed to claim child benefit for multiple kids and send it back home to the missus who lives back home.


They get our benefits under certain circumstances, not just for turning up without a job, the same with Child Benefit. Everyone (who qualifies) can claim child benefit for multiple children.

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Spijed
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Spijed » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:14 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:That’s the message I am getting from all over the place.

When we can offer a local bloke who’s just a normal guy who’s a life long claret, and will fight for Brexit and Burnley every step of the way.

I think we can get people behind him.


Would you sell your soul to the devil and work with the Conservatives?

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Lowbankclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lowbankclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:17 pm

If it be your will wrote:Unless a genuine Brexit is delivered in the meantime, I predict you'll do a lot better than is generally anticipated. Almost everyone I know personally is in the process of washing their hands of Labour, that's for sure.


It’s a funny thing doing door stepping.
You get a real appreciation of what’s going on.
When you look people in the eye and say things they do take it on board.
But betray that and it’s damaging in a big way.

Two examples from my past.
One an old lady I knocked on her door and she said she would vote for my mumif we sorted next door, I promised I would return if we won.
A few weeks after we won .i returned with my mum. She said she never expected to see us again. The house next door was derelict and was leaking into her house and her bead room walk was black with mould.

My mum had it compulsory purchased and auctioned off, then repaired.
Next election 30 to 40 streets away knew what we had done for that lady, majority increased.

A farmer was allowed cow poo to over flow every time we had heavy rain. We got him to move it to a place secure from rain. Streets away knew what we had done.

The county council elections my Mum smashed it.

Look after local people they will vote for you.

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ClaretAndJew
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby ClaretAndJew » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:24 pm

taio wrote:No it isn't. That's just plain wrong.



http://lawyers-inforbritain.uk/b-m-a/ca ... in-the-eu/

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taio
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby taio » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:28 pm

ClaretAndJew wrote:http://lawyers-inforbritain.uk/b-m-a/can-the-uk-control-its-borders-if-it-remains-in-the-eu/


That doesn't support what you said.

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ClaretAndJew
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby ClaretAndJew » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:29 pm

taio wrote:That doesn't support what you said.


From the website:

"First, the largest category of migrants to the UK come from outside the EU, and are not entitled to rely on EU laws on freedom of movement.[3] The UK’s ability to restrict entry to this group is unaffected by its membership of the EU.

Secondly, whereas many Member States have replaced individual controls with a common policy at their common frontier (known as the Schengen Area),[4] the UK chose to retain its right to independent border control and is entitled to check the identity of every individual entering the country.[5]"

# 34
Lowbankclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lowbankclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:30 pm

Spijed wrote:Would you sell your soul to the devil and work with the Conservatives?


Or become the USSR.

THE OPTIONS ARE NOT GREAT AT THE MOMENT.

# 35
Lowbankclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lowbankclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:33 pm

Only the blind and stupid cannot see Corbyn and his mates for the a Marxist he is.

The young don’t even know what it means.

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TheFamilyCat
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby TheFamilyCat » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:33 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Well to be fair, leave voters could have two choices.

A Tory from eton and it was 1910 apparently when we last elected a Tory.

Or a local lad you can approach as he is one of us, who will fight for Burnley with every breath.

Whilst your not gunna vote on a football flag, many in Burnley have voted on the red flag of Labour.

I just think they might just have burnt some bridges.


A bit inconsistent there; a Tory vote is a vote for The leader (assume you’re referring to Boris). A BP vote is a vote for the candidate?
Last edited by TheFamilyCat on Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

# 37
taio
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby taio » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:34 pm

ClaretAndJew wrote:From the website:

"First, the largest category of migrants to the UK come from outside the EU, and are not entitled to rely on EU laws on freedom of movement.[3] The UK’s ability to restrict entry to this group is unaffected by its membership of the EU.

Secondly, whereas many Member States have replaced individual controls with a common policy at their common frontier (known as the Schengen Area),[4] the UK chose to retain its right to independent border control and is entitled to check the identity of every individual entering the country.[5]"


The first paragraph is totally irrelevant. And the second paragraph doesn't control immigration either - checking identity that's it.
Last edited by taio on Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lancasterclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:34 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Your not correct, EU membership means open borders.
They get our benefits, even being allowed to claim child benefit for multiple kids and send it back home to the missus who lives back home.


Schrodringers Immigrant - both claiming all the benefits and nicking all the jobs.

Nice to see the "we are Not lying to anyone" lasted less than a page

And please remember, that free movement works both ways.

I get that the more elderly on here don't give a toss, but everyone else should do.
Last edited by Lancasterclaret on Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lowbankclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lowbankclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:40 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:A bit inconsistent there; a Tory vote is a vote for The leader (assume you’re referring to Boris). A BP vote is a vote for the candidate?

Well my point not well made was. Say you have an issue with a road and you want to talk to your local MP.

Your walking in to see an eton educated Tory to talk about it.

Or a a burnley fan who was at the last away game, who would strike a conversation with and feel more confident with. You can have a chat about Mee’s bad pass and then move on to your serious issue.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:42 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Well my point not well made was. Say you have an issue with a road and you want to talk to your local MP.

Your walking in to see an eton educated Tory to talk about it.

Or a a burnley fan who was at the last away game, who would strike a conversation with and feel more confident with. You can have a chat about Mee’s bad pass and then move on to your serious issue.


I know some very right wing Burnley fans.

You point would be better made if you said he was a local guy btw.

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Lowbankclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lowbankclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:46 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Schrodringers Immigrant - both claiming all the benefits and nicking all the jobs.

Nice to see the "we are Not lying to anyone" lasted less than a page

And please remember, that free movement works both ways.

I get that the more elderly on here don't give a toss, but everyone else should do.



When I copied this page it added sentences that I could not see on the post , no idea how that works.

No where did you see see me say nicking our jobs, what you did see was me praise their skill level.

You are correct you can go to Poland and work for less money, feel free.

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Erasmus
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Erasmus » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:47 pm

Lowbank, I agree with you that most people don't know what a Marxist is, but I would have to question whether you know what a Marxist is if you think Corbyn is one. To be a Marxist, and by that I mean one who subscribes to Karl Marx's stated doctrines, he would have to be seeking the revolutionary overthrow of the democratic system that he regards as unchangeably wedded to the domination of the capitalist class. Corbyn is a left wing Social Democrat, which is very different from Marxism although they do share some ideas. But if you can show me that I have misunderstood, I would be happy to learn.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby TheFamilyCat » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:47 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Well my point not well made was. Say you have an issue with a road and you want to talk to your local MP.

Your walking in to see an eton educated Tory to talk about it.

Or a a burnley fan who was at the last away game, who would strike a conversation with and feel more confident with. You can have a chat about Mee’s bad pass and then move on to your serious issue.


Are all Tory candidates Eton educated? I didn’t realise it was a pre-requisite.

I do think that candidates for all parties should be local to the constituency by the way in order to best serve the interests of the electorate bit o felt I had to pull you up on this as it sounds like you’re starting a smear campaign already.
Last edited by TheFamilyCat on Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

# 44
Lowbankclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lowbankclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:48 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I know some very right wing Burnley fans.

You point would be better made if you said he was a local guy btw.


Well he is , has a couple of businesses in Burnley..
Lives in Baxenden

# 45
aggi
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby aggi » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:49 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Well my point not well made was. Say you have an issue with a road and you want to talk to your local MP.

Your walking in to see an eton educated Tory to talk about it.

Or a a burnley fan who was at the last away game, who would strike a conversation with and feel more confident with. You can have a chat about Mee’s bad pass and then move on to your serious issue.


Who is this eton educated conservative who's standing in Burnley?

# 46
Lancasterclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:49 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:When I copied this page it added sentences that I could not see on the post , no idea how that works.

No where did you see see me say nicking our jobs, what you did see was me praise their skill level.

You are correct you can go to Poland and work for less money, feel free.


You can go anywhere in the 27 EU nations and work without any hassle.

For the young, thats a brilliant deal.
Last edited by Lancasterclaret on Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

# 47
Lowbankclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lowbankclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:53 pm

aggi wrote:Who is this eton educated conservative who's standing in Burnley?



Let’s see who stands eh, didn’t know Aggi was a died in the wood Tory.

# 48
Lowbankclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lowbankclaret » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:59 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:You can go anywhere in the 27 EU nations and work without any hassle.

For the young, thats a brilliant deal.


Your not wrong, loads of Eastern European’s coming to Burnley .

I worked a local fishing club, they already killed a fish we paid £1000 for to try to help the people of Burnley go fishing..

It’s a big help for some people.
Those people from abroad just kill what we try to improve.

# 49
aggi
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby aggi » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:02 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Let’s see who stands eh, didn’t know Aggi was a died in the wood Tory.


Just because I point it out when you make stuff up doesn't make me a Tory.

The last candidate went to Park High and Nelson and Colne college according to Google but I know that you prefer hyperbole and lies to facts.

# 50
TheFamilyCat
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby TheFamilyCat » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:02 pm

This is taking a very nasty turn.
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