Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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tiger76
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by tiger76 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:38 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:I see another MP has switched parties today.

Any reason why we don't have a by-election when this happens?
The constitutes voted for a particular party to represent them after all.
I wouldn't mind if these defectors stood in their present seats at the next election,But Chuka's already done the chicken run from Streatham,and there is rumours that Sam Gyimah is being lined up for a safe Lib Dem seat,it shows how much they value their constituents doesn't it.

You'd almost think they put their careers before the public good,but that can't be the case surely.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:41 pm

tiger76 wrote:I wouldn't mind if these defectors stood in their present seats at the next election,But Chuka's already done the chicken run from Streatham,and there is rumours that Sam Gyimah is being lined up for a safe Lib Dem seat,it shows how much they value their constituents doesn't it.

You'd almost think they put their careers before the public good,but that can't be the case surely.
As far as i'm aware, there is no such thing as a "safe" Lib Dem seat.

Whether people like it or not, there is a huge void in the centre at the moment and neither Lab or Conservatives are remotely interested in filling it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:52 pm

Typical response from Lancaster. You totally miss the point again
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by tiger76 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:53 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:As far as i'm aware, there is no such thing as a "safe" Lib Dem seat.

Whether people like it or not, there is a huge void in the centre at the moment and neither Lab or Conservatives are remotely interested in filling it.
I totally agree the centre ground has been vacated by both main parties,however the Lib Dems aren't going to form a majority,even in the present climate,so like it or lump it they'll have to go into coalition with one of the aforementioned parties,or if not coalition some type of agreement.issue by issue perhaps.

I do find it amusing that 2 Lib Dem activists being interviewed on the radio keep stressing people can change their minds,it's a shame their new MP'S don't abide by this adage and give their electorates an opportunity to change their MP if they so desire.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:23 pm

Boris to lose his seat?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -marginals" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:10 am

The Brexit Party are making sure that they are right when they say that there’s a communist standing for election in Islington North.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... SApp_Other

These are your bedfellows Lowbank.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:29 am

Spijed wrote:Boris to lose his seat?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -marginals" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
She's one for hyperbole, isn't she. In spite of what she claims, the rabble of protestors didn't drown out Johnson's speech outside number 10. He could clearly be heard. But rather more to the point, does Momentum think that drowning out one's political opponents so their voices cannot be heard is the true democratic way?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:34 am

dsr wrote:But rather more to the point, does Momentum think that drowning out one's political opponents so their voices cannot be heard is the true democratic way?
Are you suggesting they shouldn’t be allowed to protest? Is that the true democratic way?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:51 am

martin_p wrote:Are you suggesting they shouldn’t be allowed to protest? Is that the true democratic way?
No, I'm not saying that they should not be allowed to protest. Obviously. You'd need to be extremely and determinedly prejudiced to think that was what I said.

What I am saying is that Voltaire's approach of "I disapprove of what you say but I defend to the death your right to say it" is on the right lines. Momentum's approach of "I disapprove of what you say so I will form a mob and try to drown you out" is a little less democratic.

What's your position? Do you agree with Voltaire? Or do you think that Momentum have the right idea?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:22 am

martin_p wrote:The Brexit Party are making sure that they are right when they say that there’s a communist standing for election in Islington North.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... SApp_Other

These are your bedfellows Lowbank.
Another naive attack on the Brexit Party. Let’s compare to the Lib Dems, my topic of the weekend.

The BP candidates are more diverse than the Lib Dem’s.
The BP have more business expertise (on average) than the Lib Dem’s.
The BP are more centric than the Lib Dem’s (on a libertarian / authoritarian axis).
The BP are more geographically spread out than the Lib Dem’s.
The BP don’t believe in things like legalising harmful drugs.

I am really struggling to understand where all this hate comes from, compared to the total lack of criticism of parties like the Lib Dem’s. The more I look, the more I dislike.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:33 am

tiger76 wrote:I totally agree the centre ground has been vacated by both main parties,however the Lib Dems aren't going to form a majority,even in the present climate,so like it or lump it they'll have to go into coalition with one of the aforementioned parties,or if not coalition some type of agreement.issue by issue perhaps.

I do find it amusing that 2 Lib Dem activists being interviewed on the radio keep stressing people can change their minds,it's a shame their new MP'S don't abide by this adage and give their electorates an opportunity to change their MP if they so desire.
I don't disagree that there shouldn't be a by election btw. It does make sense.

I would say the same about Prime Minister elections as well though.

Probably more so in fact.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:01 am

dsr wrote:No, I'm not saying that they should not be allowed to protest. Obviously. You'd need to be extremely and determinedly prejudiced to think that was what I said.

What I am saying is that Voltaire's approach of "I disapprove of what you say but I defend to the death your right to say it" is on the right lines. Momentum's approach of "I disapprove of what you say so I will form a mob and try to drown you out" is a little less democratic.

What's your position? Do you agree with Voltaire? Or do you think that Momentum have the right idea?
Well if you can point to the place where Momentum have said it’s their position to try and drown out opinions they don’t like rather than it being your determined prejudice I’ll engage with that question.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:03 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Another naive attack on the Brexit Party. Let’s compare to the Lib Dems, my topic of the weekend.

The BP candidates are more diverse than the Lib Dem’s.
The BP have more business expertise (on average) than the Lib Dem’s.
The BP are more centric than the Lib Dem’s (on a libertarian / authoritarian axis).
The BP are more geographically spread out than the Lib Dem’s.
The BP don’t believe in things like legalising harmful drugs.

I am really struggling to understand where all this hate comes from, compared to the total lack of criticism of parties like the Lib Dem’s. The more I look, the more I dislike.
You forgot about Brexit Party candidates supporting the IRA.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Swizzlestick » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:09 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Another naive attack on the Brexit Party. Let’s compare to the Lib Dems, my topic of the weekend.

The BP candidates are more diverse than the Lib Dem’s.
The BP have more business expertise (on average) than the Lib Dem’s.
The BP are more centric than the Lib Dem’s (on a libertarian / authoritarian axis).
The BP are more geographically spread out than the Lib Dem’s.
The BP don’t believe in things like legalising harmful drugs.

I am really struggling to understand where all this hate comes from, compared to the total lack of criticism of parties like the Lib Dem’s. The more I look, the more I dislike.
The Lib Dem’s don’t have candidates who have defended IRA bombings or paedophiles.

Also, your esteemed leader is on record espousing the benefits of the legalisation of drugs.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:37 am

Once or twice (that's an ironic understatement, of course) we've debated "experts" and "predictions" of what will happen if/when UK leaves the EU27.
There's been a couple of "predictions" in the press, recently. The first, the BoE's updated "prediction" and the other, "yellowhammer."

I read an interesting comment in yesterday's Times while waiting for the highlights of MotD (Jeff Hendrick's goal, of course, if you needed to ask). It's written by Philip Aldrick, Economics Editor. It's a little lengthy, so I'll post it in 4 parts - this post is #1.

Don’t panic — we’re not as doomed by Brexit as defeatist officials tell us

Two frightening Brexit documents have been released in the past fortnight. The first, by the Bank of England, warned that on leaving the European Union without a deal, Britain would suffer a recession almost as severe as that in the financial crisis. The second, from the Cabinet Office, was Operation Yellowhammer, which foretold food, medicine and fuel shortages after a hard Brexit. But it was not the warnings themselves that were frightening. It was the damage that the documents will do to trust in Britain’s institutions. Because neither scenario will ever come to pass.

We toy with the credibility of our institutions at our peril. Central bank independence ended years of high inflation because, with political gerrymandering removed from interest rate setting, markets believed that the mandate would be fulfilled faithfully. Similarly, civil servants earn respect with level-headed technocracy, not scaremongering bias. But if Britain leaves the EU without a deal on October 31 and the dire warnings do not play out, why should anyone believe them again? And if trust in our institutions does break down it will be easier for politicians to dismantle them, as the Nazis did with Gleichschaltung; the Bolsheviks did before them; and the new breed of strongman populists are attempting to do today. Harm their credibility and we risk losing so much more.

Which is why we should worry that the Bank and Yellowhammer documents were almost wilfully misleading.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:38 am

Don’t panic — we’re not as doomed by Brexit as defeatist officials tell us

#2 Yellowhammer

Yellowhammer warned that the flow of Dover-to-Calais lorry traffic could more than halve as trucks sat on the tarmac for two and a half days owing to “lack of trader readiness combined with limited space in French ports”. Those hold-ups would cause the shortages of food, fuel and medicines. At the Irish border it warned of chaos in the agrifood industry.

What was not mentioned was that before Yellowhammer was drafted in August, Brussels said that Calais had bought “42 acres of land for customs inspection posts and storage”, added 700 customs officers, was developing a “fastpass” for lorries and that hauliers would be able to clear customs online mid-Channel. On our side of the border we have pledged to keep the lorries rolling with simplified customs and security checks.

The closest comparison to what might happen is Operation Stack, which was used when Calais operators went on strike for 26 days in 2015. The average delay was four to six hours, costing the freight industry an estimated £750,000 a day, but food got through and no car manufacturers reported supply chain strains. As for agrifood at the Irish border, Boris Johnson will accept an all-Ireland food standards zone that, in theory, should fix the problem.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:40 am

Don’t panic — we’re not as doomed by Brexit as defeatist officials tell us

#3 Bank of England


The Bank’s updated “worst-case scenario” is even more specious. In November last year it warned of a recession in which GDP shrank 8 per cent, deeper than the 6.2 per cent peak-to-trough decline in the financial crisis. Since then the UK has committed itself to introducing zero tariffs on 87 per cent of imports, up from 82 per cent today; resolved cross-border banking issues; rolled over EU trade deals representing 7 per cent of the UK’s total goods trade; and set out interim arrangements for a near-frictionless UK border. The Bank now reckons the slump will be 5.5 per cent.

The reason it remains so deep is that the Bank expects to compound our misery by raising interest rates from 0.75 per cent to 4.25 per cent. In the past it would have cut rates by about 3.5 points to cushion the blow. This time, with no-deal, it will supposedly increase rates by that amount. It is a perverse assumption, defendable only by literalists because inflation will rise. On top of which the Bank assumes that the government will do nothing to help.

Reality is different. Several members of the Bank’s rate-setting committee say that they would be inclined to cut rates, even if inflation spikes. And Michael Gove says that the government would subsidise companies hit by higher EU tariffs or supply chain problems. Beyond that, Sajid Javid, the chancellor, is increasing spending and Mr Johnson has promised to cut taxes, providing a tailwind for growth.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:42 am

Don’t panic — we’re not as doomed by Brexit as defeatist officials tell us

#4 Aldrick's conclusions

It is entirely plausible that after a no-deal Brexit there will be no M20 tailback — or at least one no worse than the 20-mile single-lane queue of lorries under Operation Stack. Food, fuel and medical supplies may not be disrupted and we could be in and out of the gentlest of recessions within nine months. The Bank and Yellowhammer warnings will have served only to confirm to those who already believe it that the country’s institutions are part of an establishment plot against the people, poisoning our politics for years.

Officials will claim innocence on the grounds that they always said that their predictions were worst-case “scenarios”, not forecasts. The media dutifully used the Bank’s language but the semantics has not resonated. People heard the recession warning as a forecast and the Bank let that happen. It is either terrible communication or deliberate. Either way, they are guilty.

There are many reasons no-deal will be a bad outcome. The transition shock as the UK remakes itself will be hard. After the end of Commonwealth trade preferences when Britain joined the EEC in 1973 it took New Zealand a decade, in which growth was weaker than comparable countries, to settle on a new economic model. Work by Sergei Guriev when he was chief economist at the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development showed that children in communist states when the Berlin Wall fell suffered from stunting. Transitioning from a planned to a market economy was so painful that they grew up to be 1cm shorter than those immediately younger and older.

Yellowhammer hints at some of the real transitional risks after a no-deal Brexit. The black economy will prosper at the Irish border, lining the pockets of dissident groups. NHS and social care providers will struggle to find staff. Higher prices due to the weaker pound will hit the poorest hardest, deepening inequalities. Some industries will die; others will prosper. The government will make mistakes. It will be long road, with a diminished future as the end state even if the union holds together. But it will not be the immediate chaos envisaged and, just because it isn’t, that won’t make Brexit right.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:16 am

Rabid remainer and Lib (Dem) leader Jo Swinson has just been on the AM Show spouting her none democratic views. At it's conference today she is asking that their policy becomes repeal A50 without a second referendum. So the party name would be forever known as the ******** to Brexit Party.

How can such extremists criticise those wanting to get a free trade deal?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:31 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:As far as i'm aware, there is no such thing as a "safe" Lib Dem seat.

Whether people like it or not, there is a huge void in the centre at the moment and neither Lab or Conservatives are remotely interested in filling it.
I fear for the LibDems that those they’ve accepted into their fold might one day return to the Tories after getting elected under the LibDem banner.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:48 am

tiger76 wrote:I totally agree the centre ground has been vacated by both main parties,however the Lib Dems aren't going to form a majority,even in the present climate,so like it or lump it they'll have to go into coalition with one of the aforementioned parties,or if not coalition some type of agreement.issue by issue perhaps.

I do find it amusing that 2 Lib Dem activists being interviewed on the radio keep stressing people can change their minds,it's a shame their new MP'S don't abide by this adage and give their electorates an opportunity to change their MP if they so desire.
Has the centre ground actually shifted, or been vacated? In what way could we describe the policies of the left parties as radical? This is an honest question. And Johnson has signalled his intention to have policies (that Osborne once denounced as “irresponsible” and “leading to chaos”) such as the ditching of austerity and increased funding of public services that represents a move toward the centre ground. What I’m saying in all of this is what was considered the centre ground up until 2015, was more a cosy Neo liberal construct fobbed off on us by a series of governments, but shown not to work by the 2008 financial crash.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:38 am

summitclaret wrote:Rabid remainer and Lib (Dem) leader Jo Swinson has just been on the AM Show spouting her none democratic views. At it's conference today she is asking that their policy becomes repeal A50 without a second referendum. So the party name would be forever known as the ******** to Brexit Party.

How can such extremists criticise those wanting to get a free trade deal?
You do know that she can only do that if democratically elected to power right?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:50 am

You have missed the point. We could have a party that has democrat in it's name that would very clearly be anti democratic. Anyway it would be good news for Boris if they were daft enough to agree such a policy.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:08 pm

There was a public government petition which anyone could sign if they wanted an election on Theresa May's resignation.

On reaching 100,000 if would have a parliamentary debate.

It did not reach even half way to that figure.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:59 pm

summitclaret wrote:You have missed the point. We could have a party that has democrat in it's name that would very clearly be anti democratic. Anyway it would be good news for Boris if they were daft enough to agree such a policy.
No you’re missing the point. A party can hold any view it wants and says to the public IF you elect us we’ll do these things having been given a democratic mandate to do so. How can that be undemocratic given they are dependent on being given a democratic mandate to do it?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:01 pm

Elizabeth wrote:There was a public government petition which anyone could sign if they wanted an election on Theresa May's resignation.

On reaching 100,000 if would have a parliamentary debate.

It did not reach even half way to that figure.
There was a vote of no confidence in May’s government and a vote of no confidence in May’s leadership if the Tory party, both of which she won.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:31 pm

martin_p wrote:No you’re missing the point. A party can hold any view it wants and says to the public IF you elect us we’ll do these things having been given a democratic mandate to do so. How can that be undemocratic given they are dependent on being given a democratic mandate to do it?
The point is she has more chance stopping brexit if she says she will support remain in a second referendum than by wanting to overule the existing one. That's good news for Boris and sort of for Corbyn.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:07 pm

summitclaret wrote:The point is she has more chance stopping brexit if she says she will support remain in a second referendum than by wanting to overule the existing one. That's good news for Boris and sort of for Corbyn.
If Remain had won the referendum, would Farage then be undemocratic for running on a platform of leaving the EU?

ILabour and the Tories - the only parties with a chance of winning majorities - have to reach out to leave and remain voters. The challenge for both parties is how to bring the country together again afterward.
Last edited by AndrewJB on Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:10 pm

AndrewJB wrote:I fear for the LibDems that those they’ve accepted into their fold might one day return to the Tories after getting elected under the LibDem banner.
Hi Andrew, aren't some of the new LibDems ex-Labour MPs? I guess Jo Swinson is going for the big gamble: add some remain MPs from both Labour and Conservatives and major on the "revoke A50" being very attractive to all the remain voters. Maybe the additional MPs will give LibDems broader support.... I think it all depends on whether Brexit is already delivered before the GE.

BJ has probably hedged his bets: I'll deliver Brexit - or it was all the other parties' fault that I was blocked from delivering brexit - when the next GE takes place.

And, JC - we will negotiate and then vote against our own "best" deal!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:14 pm

AndrewJB wrote:If Remain had won the referendum, would Farage then be undemocratic for running on a platform of leaving the EU?
Anyone that alters the 'decision' of a referendum without another would be anti democratic imo. Don't you agree?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:26 pm

Well they have just gone a voted for a ******** to Brexit policy. Massive mistake for them.

The GE will be a clear choice if and when when Labour finally decides on a credible policy.

Tory - free trade deal preferable but leave anyway if the EU continue on locking us in limbo via a backstop.

LD - ******** to brexit and the referendum result

Brexit - no deal

Labour - ? But likely to be on thr fence again

There would only be one clear way forward if you want to get brexit sorted in an acceptable way any time soon and that is to give Boris a clear mandate.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:34 pm

summitclaret wrote:The point is she has more chance stopping brexit if she says she will support remain in a second referendum than by wanting to overule the existing one. That's good news for Boris and sort of for Corbyn.
You’ve changed the point now!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:38 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Hi Andrew, aren't some of the new LibDems ex-Labour MPs? I guess Jo Swinson is going for the big gamble: add some remain MPs from both Labour and Conservatives and major on the "revoke A50" being very attractive to all the remain voters. Maybe the additional MPs will give LibDems broader support.... I think it all depends on whether Brexit is already delivered before the GE.

BJ has probably hedged his bets: I'll deliver Brexit - or it was all the other parties' fault that I was blocked from delivering brexit - when the next GE takes place.

And, JC - we will negotiate and then vote against our own "best" deal!
Labour have to give the country a credible Brexit choice to vote for rather than the “in or out” debacle of before. Putting May’s deal before the electorate would be pointless, and a Labour Brexit would command support from more than a few Labour MPs and supporters.

Johnson will - if he’s been unsuccessful in getting us out by the 31st - probably blame Parliament, however he’ll also be hoping nobody remembers he’s given his word on this, and wonder why he’s not dead in a ditch yet.

Swinson -knowing she can be a coalition partner at best - is concentrating her efforts only on the 48%.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:38 pm

summitclaret wrote:Anyone that alters the 'decision' of a referendum without another would be anti democratic imo. Don't you agree?
Not if they get a majority having campaigned for it in a general election.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:41 pm

AndrewJB wrote:Labour have to give the country a credible Brexit choice to vote for rather than the “in or out” debacle of before. Putting May’s deal before the electorate would be pointless, and a Labour Brexit would command support from more than a few Labour MPs and supporters.
Yes, but what is credible about a deal negotiated by the Labour party which they then say they will vote against?

I've seen EU officials reported as saying "how does that work....????"

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:46 pm

summitclaret wrote:Anyone that alters the 'decision' of a referendum without another would be anti democratic imo. Don't you agree?
No I don’t agree. If a party is elected on a mandate of doing so then their mandate is a more up to date expression of democracy. If the LibDems won a majority,then I don’t think anyone could really complain - even if they only got 30% of the popular vote. If they found themselves in the position of being able to form minority government, I’d imagine they’d have to drop their position in favour of one like Labour’s.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by BleedingClaret » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:52 pm

Swinson seems very nice and not bigotted for a Jock
But stating that if you win a parliamentary majority at a GE then you believe that is a mandate for revoking Article 50 when that majority could be gained with 30 odd percent of the vote and less than 10 million people is either ill thought through or underhand.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:58 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Yes, but what is credible about a deal negotiated by the Labour party which they then say they will vote against?

I've seen EU officials reported as saying "how does that work....????"
Do you have a link in which EU officials were directly quoted? All I’ve seen is “EU sources” which could be anyone, or just invented. Having another in or out referendum will resolve nothing. Having a credible deal to vote for or against, and to consider the merits of allows voters to make comparisons, and understand more fully what leaving and staying looks like.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:59 pm

BleedingClaret wrote:Swinson seems very nice and not bigotted for a Jock
But stating that if you win a parliamentary majority at a GE then you believe that is a mandate for revoking Article 50 when that majority could be gained with 30 odd percent of the vote and less than 10 million people is either ill thought through or underhand.
It's a manifesto commitment.

If the Tories had a "No deal" policy in their manifesto, would you still say it wasn't fair?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:01 pm

BleedingClaret wrote:Swinson seems very nice and not bigotted for a Jock
But stating that if you win a parliamentary majority at a GE then you believe that is a mandate for revoking Article 50 when that majority could be gained with 30 odd percent of the vote and less than 10 million people is either ill thought through or underhand.
I would say that’s a problem with first past the post. If we had proportional representation no party could win a majority without a full majority of votes.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:13 pm

BleedingClaret wrote:Swinson seems very nice and not bigotted for a Jock
But stating that if you win a parliamentary majority at a GE then you believe that is a mandate for revoking Article 50 when that majority could be gained with 30 odd percent of the vote and less than 10 million people is either ill thought through or underhand.
Or how our first past the post way of electing a government works.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by BleedingClaret » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:38 pm

martin_p wrote:Or how our first past the post way of electing a government works.
I know that....
Why do I have to accept that..
Always did, always thought I would, not sure now I should or will.
If I don’t accept losing
If I want another election and decide it has to be PR
IF PR comes in and the LIb Dems or even JC gets 52% but I still don’t accept it what then?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by BleedingClaret » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:04 pm

[quote="Lancasterclaret"]It's a manifesto commitment.

If the Tories had a "No deal" policy in their manifesto, would you still say it wasn't fair?[/quote

I have no problem with her right to choose that as policy, or any other as part of her manifesto, but I think she’s either I’ll advised or being naughty.

I think she needed to offer a 2nd referendum if they won.
If they’d put that forward as option 1 leave with No deal or option 2 Revoke and remain she had a chance.

To say vote for us and then have the right to decide on the EU membership based on the reality as it is now and no deal or revoke shows sincerity

To gamble on the Labour Party’s pure farce & the
Half remainer Boris and pure leaver Farage diluting each other
Thus grabbing 30% of the vote and then dictating to the majority without further discourse just Isn’t very liberal imo

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:06 pm

What % of the voting public voted for a "No Deal" Brexit?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:18 pm

martin_p wrote:The Brexit Party are making sure that they are right when they say that there’s a communist standing for election in Islington North.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... SApp_Other

These are your bedfellows Lowbank.
It is a very diverse party.
I don’t agree with those views or values.

But to be fair when I was a member of the Labour party there were lots of people with view, including Corbyn, but he was not the leader back then. Far from it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:22 pm

https://www.facebook.com/BreakingBrexit ... 907046506/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well just leave this here.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:42 pm

What's worse?

Farage has spoken in support of tbeir aims at a rally by the AFD, who are actual Nazis.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:00 pm

13926

Point missed by poster.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by TheFamilyCat » Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:01 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:https://www.facebook.com/BreakingBrexit ... 907046506/

Well just leave this here.
Reading the comments is like being stuck on a room with a 100 Ringos. Even down to the poor spelling, terrible grammar and angry use of capitals.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by JohnMcGreal » Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:06 pm

summitclaret wrote:You have missed the point. We could have a party that has democrat in it's name that would very clearly be anti democratic. Anyway it would be good news for Boris if they were daft enough to agree such a policy.
I had a conversation with taio about this very scenario a good few months back.

If a party stands on a manifesto in a general election, and wins enough seats to form a government, in what way would it be anti-democratic to then follow through with those manifesto commitments?

You could argue that it's less direct than a referendum, and that thanks to our FPTP system, it isn't proportionally representative, but it would not be anti-democratic.

In fact, in our Parliamentary system, this is exactly how it should work. Referendums don't really sit well within our representative democratic system, but that can of worms has been opened, and I think the only way this eventually gets resolved is with another referendum.

But until then, any party can legitimately stand on a manifesto to revoke article 50, to offer a referendum or to leave with no deal. They are all valid positions to take ahead of a general election.
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