Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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Erasmus
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Erasmus » Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:48 pm

Paul, it was Chicken Licken. Oh, and Corbyn isn't a Marxist unless you have an alternative understanding of what Marxism is?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:54 pm

Erasmus wrote:Paul, it was Chicken Licken. Oh, and Corbyn isn't a Marxist unless you have an alternative understanding of what Marxism is?
I'm grateful, Erasmus, Chicken Licken sounds right to me, but I think I'm trying to remember back nearly 60 years. (Google came up with Chicken Little, so much for google)!

It's John McD that I was referring to as the Marxist, I think - and without re-reading the relevant post. JC, I'm not sure about, but he has, on this occasion, chosen a Marxist as his running mate.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:57 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Hi martin, why am I "missing the point?" Did you take a look at what Philip Aldrick wrote about Yellowhammer - and the Bank of England's most recent Brexit prediction?

Did you understand what I wrote about scenario planning? There's no point - and no one would waste their time doing it - to start with a "this is the best it will be case" and then call it your "base case" or to have a planning scenario that you call your "reasonable worst case" when you actually feel that there is an "even worst, very bad, case." These are all planning scenarios, it doesn't matter what you call them, it doesn't matter if you call them "good," "bad" and "ugly or, even, "Barnes," "Wood" and "Vydra" they are still only planning scenarios.....

And, as I posted earlier, it doesn't matter if you feel the same as Chicken Little (google is your friend!) and you feel the need to tell everyone that the sky is going to fall, it still won't result in the sky falling.
I don’t need to google it, I’m old enough to remember it (and it’s Chicken Licken). You’re still missing the point, but you know that and you’re trolling now so I’ll leave it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:58 pm

martin_p wrote:I don’t need to google it, I’m old enough to remember it (and it’s Chicken Licken). You’re still missing the point, but you know that and you’re trolling now so I’ll leave it.
Thank you, martin. As our friend, Lancs would say "those are the realities."

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:00 pm

Elizabeth wrote:14178

martin , your response doesn't do your credibility any good.

Look at it again , especially the 5 year bit. Then recall the year of the referendum.
The rise of UKIP and Euro scepticism pre-dates the referendum. People have been calling out Farage for laying the problems of austerity (nhs, jobs, etc) at the door of immigrants and the EU since he started spouting it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Erasmus » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:53 pm

John McDonald is not a Marxist either. He's a left wing Social Democrat.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:55 pm

I honestly think this austerity argument is a poor one.
Conversely one could say that a significant share of Remain voters supported Remain, not because they were ideologically in favour of the UK's EU membership,but because they were doing alright and didn't want to upset their comfortable living
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by bfcjg » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:58 pm

8-) https://uk.news.yahoo.com/eu-given-brex ... 49017.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Johnson is treating the whole Brexit issue like a public school wheeze full off jolly japes and a clip round the ear from the housemaster is the only punishment if you get caught.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:01 pm

Elizabeth wrote:I honestly think this austerity argument is a poor one.
Conversely one could say that a significant share of Remain voters supported Remain, not because they were ideologically in favour of the UK's EU membership,but because they were doing alright and didn't want to upset their comfortable living
I dare say that’s true for some.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:05 pm

I'm happy to acknowledge your response as some progress we have made today on this issue then
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:29 pm

martin_p wrote:dsr solving a problem the experts have been grappling with by being over simplistic? I’m shocked!!
I really can't work out whether you think that those ideas were meant to be a full and final solution to the education problem (but you would have to be very stupid to think that) or that you think the education system is just fine and dandy and anyone throwing out ideas is wasting his time (but you'd have to be very stupid to think that as well).

But what I really suspect is that you saw my name and thought (Aye, aye, dsr has posted again, here is my chance to post something vacuous and infantile and show to the world what an unpleasant person I can be". And you took that chance.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:35 pm

aggi wrote:I quoted it for Ringo above but given some of the posts above re: Julie Cooper it's probably worth reiterating the Labour policy on Brexit in 2017:

We will reject ‘no deal’ as a viable option and if needs be negotiate transitional arrangements to avoid a cliff-edge for the economy.

Anyone complaining that she didn't vote for a no-deal Brexit really only has themself to blame if they voted for her. This wasn't a secret, it was a public document that was covered in all of the major news outlets.
The manifesto was so watery on Brexit they could've done more or less anything and not broken their commitments. This is what they were saying, though:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHwPsdOZUMk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So whether they lied to you personally or not depends on whether you got your information from the manifesto, the telly, or the radio. Sadly, and stupidly, I got my information mainly from the latter two, and inadvertently lied to an awful lot of decent people while out canvassing. I deeply regret doing that now.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:38 pm

From The Guardian...

"Boris Johnson and the Conservatives are threatening to drive our country over a no-deal cliff edge in six weeks’ time. He has no mandate for that and is opposed by a majority of the public. Since he became prime minister in July, Johnson has been defeated on every vote he has put to parliament. Now his undemocratic manoeuvrings and his decision to close down parliament and avoid accountability are being challenged in the supreme court. Johnson’s visit to Luxembourg on Monday was a further humiliation. The prime minister went to Europe with no plan and no proposals, and did his best to hide from scrutiny while he was there.

Three years ago Johnson backed Brexit because he thought it would boost his political career – writing one article in favour of remain and another backing leave. Now he’s backing no deal because he thinks it’s politically expedient – to win back votes from the Brexit party and keep his Tory Brexit ultras on board. At the same time he needs to look like he’s trying for a deal to hold his cabinet and parliamentary party together.

There is nothing new in Johnson’s shenanigans. Theresa May signed up to contradictory red lines on Brexit to keep the Conservatives from falling apart, and David Cameron called the referendum in the first place to see off the threat from Ukip.

The Brexit saga of the past few years has been a litany of Tory failures, as one Conservative prime minister after another has put their own and their party’s interests before the interests of the people and our country. Now we face crashing out of the EU next month without a deal, just to save Johnson’s job. We know from Amber Rudd, who resigned from his cabinet this month, that there is little effort going into securing a deal with the EU – in fact it is hard to see any sign of real effort at all. That came after leaked reports that the prime minister’s negotiations are a “sham” and no deal is the real goal.

In the teeth of No 10 resistance, parliament secured the release of the confidential Yellowhammer papers, setting out the government’s preparations for no deal. The government’s own analysis found the UK would be at risk of food and medicine shortages, and face chaos at key ports. It also exposed that ministers had deliberately misled the public. They told us there would be no food or medicine shortages, when their own internal reports showed that there would be.

Yellowhammer has raised the stakes even higher. Johnson’s reckless no-deal Brexit would threaten jobs and living standards and increase food prices. And it would pave the way for a one-sided trade deal with Donald Trump that could only be negotiated from a position of weakness.

We will give the people the final say, with the choice of a credible leave offer and remain

It would not be a no-deal Brexit, but a Trump-deal Brexit, with a race to the bottom in our rights and protections sold to US corporations.

Nor would no deal be a “clean break”, as some imagine. It would not mean we could “just get on with it”. In reality it would be the start of a whole new period of confusion and delay, as a string of new agreements would have to be hammered out with the EU – but this time against a backdrop of rising unemployment, deepening poverty, and entire industries moving offshore.

Labour will do everything necessary to stop a disastrous no deal, with all the chaos, disruption and job losses it would lead to – and the serious threat it would pose to the Northern Ireland peace process. That’s why we worked with other parties across parliament to pass a law to stop us crashing out at the end of next month.

But as soon as no deal is off the table, and the prime minister has complied with the law, we need a general election to get rid of Johnson’s Tory government. That election will be about much more than Brexit. It will be a choice between a Labour government that will put wealth and power in the hands of the many, and Johnson’s born-to-rule Conservatives who will look after the privileged few. It will be about who will truly end austerity and deliver the change Britain needs, invest in every region and nation of our country, and rebuild our public services, communities and industry.

The people of Britain deserve to have their say in a general election. Only a Labour government would end the Brexit crisis by taking the decision back to the people. We will give the people the final say on Brexit, with the choice of a credible leave offer and remain.

A Labour government would secure a sensible deal based on the terms we have long advocated, including a new customs union with the EU; a close single market relationship; and guarantees of workers’ rights and environmental protections. We would then put that to a public vote alongside remain. I will pledge to carry out whatever the people decide, as a Labour prime minister.

We are the only UK-wide party ready to put our trust in the people of Britain to make the decision. Johnson wants to crash out with no deal. That is something opposed by business, industry, the trade unions and most of the public – and even by the Vote Leave campaign’s co-convener Michael Gove, who said earlier this year: “We didn’t vote to leave without a deal.”

And now the Liberal Democrats want MPs to overturn the referendum result by revoking article 50 in a parliamentary stitch-up. It is simply undemocratic to override the decision of a majority of the voters without going back to the people.

Labour is the only party determined to bring people together, and give the people the final say. Only a vote for Labour will deliver a public vote on Brexit. Only a Labour government will put the power back into the hands of the people. Let’s stop a no-deal Brexit – and let the people decide.

• Jeremy Corbyn"

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:54 pm

dsr wrote:I really can't work out whether you think that those ideas were meant to be a full and final solution to the education problem (but you would have to be very stupid to think that) or that you think the education system is just fine and dandy and anyone throwing out ideas is wasting his time (but you'd have to be very stupid to think that as well).

But what I really suspect is that you saw my name and thought (Aye, aye, dsr has posted again, here is my chance to post something vacuous and infantile and show to the world what an unpleasant person I can be". And you took that chance.
Nope, keep guessing.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:56 pm

If it be your will wrote:The manifesto was so watery on Brexit they could've done more or less anything and not broken their commitments. This is what they were saying, though:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHwPsdOZUMk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So whether they lied to you personally or not depends on whether you got your information from the manifesto, the telly, or the radio. Sadly, and stupidly, I got my information mainly from the latter two, and inadvertently lied to an awful lot of decent people while out canvassing. I deeply regret doing that now.
Saying "we are leaving the EU" and saying "We will reject ‘no deal’ as a viable option" (which doesn't seem at all watery to me) aren't mutually exclusive.

If you had a video with Corbyn saying we'd leave with no deal then that would be relevant.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:59 pm

If it be your will wrote:The manifesto was so watery on Brexit they could've done more or less anything and not broken their commitments. This is what they were saying, though:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHwPsdOZUMk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So whether they lied to you personally or not depends on whether you got your information from the manifesto, the telly, or the radio. Sadly, and stupidly, I got my information mainly from the latter two, and inadvertently lied to an awful lot of decent people while out canvassing. I deeply regret doing that now.
I’m not sure what that video contradicts in the manifesto, it also says we’re leaving the EU. Not wanting to crash out with no deal is not mutually exclusive with saying we’re leaving the EU.

Of course all those quotes are shorn of any context and I’m sure at least a few of them go on to talk about the type of deal Labour wanted when leaving, a deal that has never been on offer from the Tory government.

Edit - aggi beat me to it!
Last edited by martin_p on Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

dsr
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:59 pm

martin_p wrote:Nope, keep guessing.
How will you know if I guess right?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:02 am

Does Corbyn expect people to believe that he and the EU will be negotiating in good faith for a deal which they both want to be voted down?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:03 am

Elizabeth wrote:I honestly think this austerity argument is a poor one.
Conversely one could say that a significant share of Remain voters supported Remain, not because they were ideologically in favour of the UK's EU membership,but because they were doing alright and didn't want to upset their comfortable living
The LSE has done a fair bit on it over the past few years, it's not a new idea.

A lot of the arguments for staying in the EU are economic so I'd wouldn't say your suggestion re: remain voters is entirely incorrect. Personally I'm not looking for more EU integration, schengen, Euro, etc for the UK but I do believe that the UK will be worse off economically (and less influential in the world) following Brexit.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:05 am

dsr wrote:How will you know if I guess right?
My ‘simplistic’ post wasn’t even in response to you, it was in response to aggi saying you had over simplified something. You do it a lot.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:06 am

Elizabeth wrote:I'm happy to acknowledge your response as some progress we have made today on this issue then
You’re bound to say something vaguely right every now and again Wrongo.

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Re: Our next MP

Post by If it be your will » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:07 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I hope after his post that would stop any socialist voting for the Brexit Party
The true adherents of the Brexit Party do make it enormously difficult for left-wing leavers to even consider switching their vote to them, that's for sure. But attracting at least some the 'socialist leave' group is essential if the Brexit Party are to make serious inroads. Farage is politically clever, though, and will probably chuck left-wing leavers a bone of some sort. I'm wondering what that bone might be. The obvious choice would be a policy that unites a lot of free-market fundamentalists and a lot of left-wingers: A Universal Basic Income.

If Farage goes into a GE with my 2 favourite policies (a UBI and to leave the EU), I imagine that'd be enough to just about scrape myself over the line.

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Re: Our next MP

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:10 am

If it be your will wrote:The true adherents of the Brexit Party do make it enormously difficult for left-wing leavers to even consider switching their vote to them, that's for sure. But attracting at least some the 'socialist leave' group is essential if the Brexit Party are to make serious inroads. Farage is politically clever, though, and will probably chuck left-wing leavers a bone of some sort. I'm wondering what that bone might be. The obvious choice would be a policy that unites a lot of free-market fundamentalists and a lot of left-wingers: A Universal Basic Income.

If Farage goes into a GE with my 2 favourite policies (a UBI and to leave the EU), I imagine that'd be enough to just about scrape myself over the line.
I’d be surprised if the Brexit Party come up with a policy. They didn’t for the Euro elections.

But even if they did support a UBI they’ll never get the chance to implement it so what does it actually mean?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:18 am

martin_p wrote:I’m not sure what that video contradicts in the manifesto, it also says we’re leaving the EU. Not wanting to crash out with no deal is not mutually exclusive with saying we’re leaving the EU.

Of course all those quotes are shorn of any context and I’m sure at least a few of them go on to talk about the type of deal Labour wanted when leaving, a deal that has never been on offer from the Tory government.
aggi wrote:Saying "we are leaving the EU" and saying "We will reject ‘no deal’ as a viable option" (which doesn't seem at all watery to me) aren't mutually exclusive.

If you had a video with Corbyn saying we'd leave with no deal then that would be relevant.
If you both honestly and genuinely think that what was said by Labour's front bench in 2017 (see clip) is consistent with - in both spirit and letter - with the policy they are now advancing ("We will negotiate a deal but most, if not all, of the shadow cabinet will campaign against our own deal in a referendum"), then I can see how you might think 'fair enough'. No Labour leaver I know personally (and no Labour remainer I know either for that matter!) thinks the way you two do, though.

Are you absolutely sure you're speaking with complete sincerity on this matter?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:26 am

So it's a little bit correct then aggi. That'll do for me for the time being

Behave yourself martin

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:32 am

dsr wrote:Does Corbyn expect people to believe that he and the EU will be negotiating in good faith for a deal which they both want to be voted down?
This policy is not sustainable. The only hope for Labour in an election would be to win the ground war like they did in 2017. But all canvassers know that the number one question will be "What's your Brexit Policy?"

This leaves 2 options for your answer:

1) Lie.
2) Get hysterically laughed at on a repeated basis.

Few humans can sustain the second option for more than a few doors, before they just go home and have a few cans instead.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:37 am

If it be your will wrote:If you both honestly and genuinely think that what was said by Labour's front bench in 2017 (see clip) is consistent with - in both spirit and letter - with the policy they are now advancing ("We will negotiate a deal but most, if not all, of the shadow cabinet will campaign against our own deal in a referendum"), then I can see how you might think 'fair enough'. No Labour leaver I know personally (and no Labour remainer I know either for that matter!) thinks the way you two do, though.

Are you absolutely sure you're speaking with complete sincerity on this matter?
I'll be honest, I don't think that policy is going to last long. Corbyn has already said that he'd be remaining neutral https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... referendum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On the other hand, if that's what the party members want it is difficult to go against it I suppose.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:51 am

aggi wrote:I'll be honest, I don't think that policy is going to last long. Corbyn has already said that he'd be remaining neutral https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... referendum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On the other hand, if that's what the party members want it is difficult to go against it I suppose.
If you don't think this policy will last long (and I thoroughly agree that it surely can't), what on earth will they replace it with? I honestly can't imagine where they go from here.

I remember repeatedly pleading (on this messageboard and elsewhere) against changing their policy to an overtly 'remain' one (which it now is), because it will leave the Labour Party languishing in their own incoherent gibberish. All I got from remain Labour voters was the old chestnut "4 votes gained for each one lost by switching to remain, you know!!"

How can Labour (via their own members, admittedly) have been so stupid as to find themselves in this impossible trap? It beggars belief.

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Re: Our next MP

Post by TheFamilyCat » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:18 am

If it be your will wrote:The true adherents of the Brexit Party do make it enormously difficult for left-wing leavers to even consider switching their vote to them, that's for sure. But attracting at least some the 'socialist leave' group is essential if the Brexit Party are to make serious inroads. Farage is politically clever, though, and will probably chuck left-wing leavers a bone of some sort. I'm wondering what that bone might be. The obvious choice would be a policy that unites a lot of free-market fundamentalists and a lot of left-wingers: A Universal Basic Income.

If Farage goes into a GE with my 2 favourite policies (a UBI and to leave the EU), I imagine that'd be enough to just about scrape myself over the line.
Probably a good time to remind you that he's never even been an MP. He may well be a good rabble-rouser, shouting from the sidelines but let's not kid ourselves that he's some great politician.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:39 am

If it be your will wrote:If you both honestly and genuinely think that what was said by Labour's front bench in 2017 (see clip) is consistent with - in both spirit and letter - with the policy they are now advancing ("We will negotiate a deal but most, if not all, of the shadow cabinet will campaign against our own deal in a referendum"), then I can see how you might think 'fair enough'. No Labour leaver I know personally (and no Labour remainer I know either for that matter!) thinks the way you two do, though.

Are you absolutely sure you're speaking with complete sincerity on this matter?
I don’t think it’s consistent with the position they’ll take at the next election, but that wasn’t really we were talking about. We were talking about whether they’d lied in their 2017 manifesto and the answer is no as their actions have been consistent since.

The next election is an entirely different story. Things have moved on in two and a half years.

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Re: Our next MP

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:43 am

TheFamilyCat wrote:Probably a good time to remind you that he's never even been an MP. He may well be a good rabble-rouser, shouting from the sidelines but let's not kid ourselves that he's some great politician.
And let’s not kid ourselves that he’d actually mean it f he came up with any vaguely socialist sounding policy. Surely those socialists tempted to vote for Farage because they’re Brexiteers aren’t naive enough to believe they’d ever be implemented?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:51 am

Paul Waine wrote:
Did you understand what I wrote about scenario planning? There's no point - and no one would waste their time doing it - to start with a "this is the best it will be case" and then call it your "base case" or to have a planning scenario that you call your "reasonable worst case" when you actually feel that there is an "even worst, very bad, case." These are all planning scenarios, it doesn't matter what you call them, it doesn't matter if you call them "good," "bad" and "ugly or, even, "Barnes," "Wood" and "Vydra" they are still only planning scenarios.....
I think this is the problem we all have with this.

It does matter what you call them, because you have to have a best and worst case scenario.

If you don't, then you are continuing the denying of reality in public to placate people who would otherwise might ask "Why the hell are we doing this again?" into actual government planning. If you do that, then when the inevitable inquiry happens to what went wrong, you'd better be 100% sure you are not going to get sold down the river and have a chain of evidence that protects you.

That is the same in any business that does contingency planning, and the "covering your back" mentality will be absolutely top priority in the civil service I'd have thought.

Regarding Burnleys MP, its still a hell of swing for the Brexit Party to win there, especially if no other party drops out. Possible though!
Last edited by Lancasterclaret on Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Our next MP

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:02 am

If it be your will wrote:The true adherents of the Brexit Party do make it enormously difficult for left-wing leavers to even consider switching their vote to them, that's for sure. But attracting at least some the 'socialist leave' group is essential if the Brexit Party are to make serious inroads. Farage is politically clever, though, and will probably chuck left-wing leavers a bone of some sort. I'm wondering what that bone might be. The obvious choice would be a policy that unites a lot of free-market fundamentalists and a lot of left-wingers: A Universal Basic Income.

If Farage goes into a GE with my 2 favourite policies (a UBI and to leave the EU), I imagine that'd be enough to just about scrape myself over the line.
You honestly think those who back team farage will even consider an UBI? Crikey!

Thats as far fetched as Ringo voting remain!

The bone the Brexit Party will throw disgruntled Labour voters is the same bone UKIP did. Tougher on immigration, and very tough language on immigration (whatever the consequences).

You vote for them as a socialist, and you will probably get exactly the opposite of what you want.
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Re: Our next MP

Post by AndyClaret » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:55 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:You honestly think those who back team farage will even consider an UBI? Crikey!

Thats as far fetched as Ringo voting remain!

The bone the Brexit Party will throw disgruntled Labour voters is the same bone UKIP did. Tougher on immigration, and very tough language on immigration (whatever the consequences).

You vote for them as a socialist, and you will probably get exactly the opposite of what you want.
You got any evidence for the brexit party's tough language on immigration?

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Re: Our next MP

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:02 am

AndyClaret wrote:You got any evidence for the brexit party's tough language on immigration?
hhahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha! (breathe) hhahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha! hhahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha! hhahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha! hhahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha! hhahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha! (breathe)

(huge incredulous smiley)

hhahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha! (breathe) hhahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha! hhahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha! hhahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha! hhahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha! hhahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha! (breathe)

Thanks Andy, I needed that.

I mean, you support them!
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:39 am

I'm not convinced by Labour's brexit policy, but they've been pretty consistent since the 2017 election in saying that they are totally against "no deal", and want some kind of CU and SM alignment which Theresa May never came close to offering.
They have moved closer and closer to advocating a 2nd referendum over the past 3 years, but it's normal in politics for policies to evolve in light of a changing situation. (e.g. No deal v 2nd referendum).
As for the current Corbyn position, it strikes me that he is now taking up pretty much exactly the same position as Harold Wilson in 1975. There were 2 options on the paper and the Labour position was that they wouldn't officially campaign for either.
In response the influential Conservative Edward du Cann said that "the Labour party is hopelessly and irrevocably split and muddled over this issue", but given that Wilson had a wafer thin majority (3), it worked for him.

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Re: Our next MP

Post by AndyClaret » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:14 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:hhahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha! (breathe) hhahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha! hhahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha! hhahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha! hhahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha! hhahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha! (breathe)

(huge incredulous smiley)

hhahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha! (breathe) hhahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha! hhahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha! hhahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha! hhahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha! hhahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha! (breathe)

Thanks Andy, I needed that.

I mean, you support them!
Just one example?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by android » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:16 am

Erasmus wrote:John McDonald is not a Marxist either. He's a left wing Social Democrat.
John Mcdonnell is a Marxist. You clearly want to support him Erasmus, but if you don't like the fact that he is a Marxist, you really ought to take it up with John Mcdonnell rather than this message board. It is John Mcdonnell who defines himself as a Marxist. I can't stand the bloke or his intentions for this country but I wouldn't deny him the right to call himself a Marxist.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Tall Paul » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:31 am

android wrote:John Mcdonnell is a Marxist. You clearly want to support him Erasmus, but if you don't like the fact that he is a Marxist, you really ought to take it up with John Mcdonnell rather than this message board. It is John Mcdonnell who defines himself as a Marxist. I can't stand the bloke or his intentions for this country but I wouldn't deny him the right to call himself a Marxist.
What about John McDonald though?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:34 am

Tall Paul wrote:What about John McDonald though?
Which one? The first PM of Canada??

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:49 am

android wrote:John Mcdonnell is a Marxist. You clearly want to support him Erasmus, but if you don't like the fact that he is a Marxist, you really ought to take it up with John Mcdonnell rather than this message board. It is John Mcdonnell who defines himself as a Marxist. I can't stand the bloke or his intentions for this country but I wouldn't deny him the right to call himself a Marxist.
He calls himself a Marxist, but his party policies are not marxist (certainly 2017 manifesto wasn't)

I suspect that if they get in and they succeed, they will push further to the left, but no more lefty than the social democrats systems of Northern Europe.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Tall Paul » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:08 am

nil_desperandum wrote:Which one? The first PM of Canada??
I don't know, the one Erasmus was talking about who isn't a Marxist.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:48 am

Tall Paul wrote:I don't know, the one Erasmus was talking about who isn't a Marxist.
Ah, ok. I've just found that post. It's rather a long way back, so the joke got a bit lost, but fair enough. :)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Tall Paul » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:53 am

nil_desperandum wrote:Ah, ok. I've just found that post. It's rather a long way back, so the joke got a bit lost, but fair enough. :)
android quoted it in post #14238, which is where I spotted it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:58 am

To be fair to ClaretAndy the Brexit Party doesn't have any policies so it is hard to tell what their stance on immigration is.

Having their unelected leader posing by posters such as this suggests that tough on immigration may just be one of their policies though:

Image
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:07 pm

aggi wrote:To be fair to ClaretAndy the Brexit Party doesn't have any policies so it is hard to tell what their stance on immigration is.

Having their unelected leader posing by posters such as this suggests that tough on immigration may just be one of their policies though:

Image
That’s democracy for you!

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Re: Our next MP

Post by JohnMcGreal » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:22 pm

AndyClaret wrote:You got any evidence for the brexit party's tough language on immigration?
Stoking fear over invading foreigners is so 2016.

Stoking fear over traitors and treachery will be the message from those ghouls this time round.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:28 pm

martin_p wrote:I don’t think it’s consistent with the position they’ll take at the next election, but that wasn’t really we were talking about. We were talking about whether they’d lied in their 2017 manifesto and the answer is no as their actions have been consistent since.

The next election is an entirely different story. Things have moved on in two and a half years.
I'm assuming you are a committed Labour voter for the upcoming election (is this definitely right?).

In that case, what do you think Labour's Brexit policy should be for the election? I'm assuming you don't think it should be 'Negotiate a deal then campaign against it', so what should it be?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:31 pm

If it be your will wrote:I'm assuming you are a committed Labour voter for the upcoming election (is this definitely right?).

In that case, what do you think Labour's Brexit policy should be for the election? I'm assuming you don't think it should be 'Negotiate a deal then campaign against it', so what should it be?
I quite like it be honest.

But I'm not sure its a vote winner, or even a "stop votes hemorrhaging to other parties" winner.

I'm not in favour of the Lib Dem policy of revoke, but suspect their back up policy of 2nd ref if not biggest party could dovetail quite nicely with this Lab position so it might be a goer in a hung parliament.
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Re: Our next MP

Post by AndyClaret » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:33 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:Stoking fear over invading foreigners is so 2016.

Stoking fear over traitors and treachery will be the message from those ghouls this time round.
It's not a trick question my friend.

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